I am looking for recommendations for new portage boots. The factors I am interested in are: 1) comfort, 2) traction on wet granite, mud, the typical stuff found on Q portages. I am looking for MAXIMUM TRACTION. 3) Durability. I'd like to get a few canoe trips out of them. 4) Ankle/foot support/protection.

I am not interested in sandals, so don't try to sell me any. I also wet-foot, so I don't care if it's waterproof or not. Fast-drying would be a plus. Tell me what works for you. Keep in mind, I'm looking for portage boots, not camp comfy footwear. Thanks in advance!

OS  8-)

My partner and I tried the Chota mukluk for an eight day trip in Quetico in September.  We were both quite happy with them with these provisions:  get a good support liner such as Superfeet, etc and get their more recent models that have a stronger webbing holding the lace in place.  
We both found them to be warm and comfortable with good traction.  At one point I was hip deep below a beaver dam, filled the boots with mucky water and found that, with a semi-warm day and a breeze, they dried out enough over night to be comfortable again the next morning.
Two thumbs up, so far.

OS,
i've had good luck with the TEVA brand water shoes, not to be confused with there sandals >:(
i check the web and get a deal on the last year model.
I got 3 yrs on first pair, still look good, but sole has lost some grip.
this year i got the Gamma pro for $30 on sale.
Only drawback, is there only ankle height, same as running shoes??
Something, you may or may not know??
WHEN people talk about ankle support, what there really telling you is they have WEAKNESS" in there supporting muscles around the foot area.
IF you have that problem and want to fix it and not just hide it with high boots and restrictive lacing techniques, you can go to a running store and buy a balance trainer and that will fix you right up!
its basically a circular piece of wood with a central pivot point that you can adjust for angle.
The idea is to strengthen the weak muscles by balancing yourself on it a few minutes each day.
In over 25 yrs of exercise classes, aerobics,step and outdoor pursuits, i've never worn a shoe higher than ankle height and never had a problem??
TEVA shoes are also sticky as all get out, so that helps with the bashing your feet can endure, if your slipping and sliding down the portage trail!!
I know your a gore-tex sock guy, so if worse comes to worse, you have a camp fishing day shoe that will double as portage shoe if you need it ;) ;)

Old Salt,
I used Quetico Trekkers last summer. I'm a wet footer too. Good traction and they drained quickly without getting stones inside. Dried quickly. I like them a lot so far, but I've only used them on one 8-day trip. They look like they've been through some wear and tear, and I think I'll need to re-lace them before next trip. I'm pretty sure there are some others on QJ who have used Trekkers. I think I paid about $90, which I don't think is bad if they last for 3-4 years. I know they can be worn with Brookies in cold weather, but I always go to the Q in July/August.
I think they're worth your consideration, but see what someone with longer expeience with them thinks.
Wind-in-Face

OS, I like my Chota Quetico Trekkers also. I've used them  6 trips and will be wearing them this year.

OS,

You may recall I went around in the high riding neoprene Chotas last summer.  They keep feet dry & I'd say they make a fine cold water boot.  I'll definitely wear mine again... but NOT this year.

As you know, my party has a particularly rough "bushwhack" planned at the outset of this year's trip.  I wanted better traction & support than my Chotas provide.  So, I used my QJ search function & found a similar thread where QJ'ers expressed their preferences (but not necessarily with your requirements in mind).  My requirements this year seem similar to your's.  In any case, Old Rookie posted a recommendation re: NRS Storm Boots where he listed this link:   (You need to Login or Register

Well, I bit & I bought.  While I haven't actually worn the boots in Quetico, yet, I HAVE been wearing them around the neighborhood.  They are remarkably lightweight.  They use high quality rubber & offer a VERY aggressive tread.  If these boots don't provide exceptional traction on wet Canadian bedrock, I can't imagine what would.  Also, they seem to provide the ankle support that my basketball-trashed ankles need.  The proof will be this year's trip, of course, but I'm inclined to believe that Old Rookie pointed me in the right direction.

Anyway, that's how I see it right now.  Good luck!  

Jimbo   8-)

solotripper wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 9:08pm:

Something, you may or may not know?? WHEN people talk about ankle support, what there really telling you is they have WEAKNESS" in there supporting muscles around the foot area.

Hey.  That's good to know.  Here I thought it was the result of broken bones (helicoptered one ankle skiing in the rockies), ankle sprains that turned blue to my knee (that happens when you play basketball and you go up for a rebound and the first thing that contacts the floor on the way down is your knee) and strained ligaments that didn't return "home" after the injury healed (that popping sound you hear when I walk is one of those).

OS -

You may still loose traction, even with Chota Mukluks.  (One of my recent ankle sprains was when wearing the Nunavut II models and stepped up on a wet granite rock with a canoe over my head.  That one was on Keats Lake headed to PP.  That one only turned blue to about mid-calf, but I had a wonderfully diverse set of colors from one toe to the next.)  But that aside, I'm still wearing them for spring trips where I'm not interested in wet footing.  I do wear elastic ankle supports on both ankles when wearing the boots.  The pattern is sock liner (usually UltraMax), ankle support, cushion (wool) sock, then boot, then snug up with the lacing system.  They may seem a bit loose still, but you'll be able to pull your foot up with the boot still on when in boot sucking mud over the top of the boot.  (My boots also have a cinch at the top to minimize the amount of water that gets down inside from the top.  I've had them submerged more than once and the result was just damp socks.)

For warmer weather, I wear something called Play Boots from Patagonia.  I'm not sure they are still in production, but db and tripper turned me on to them a couple of years ago and they work well--good traction and drainage.  However, if you suffer from "tender feet" you may want to add some padding in the foot bed ... you know what you are stepping on.

dd

geeze dd...little touchy arent we?   Jan

wrote on Mar 13^th, 2007 at 2:18am:

geeze dd...little touchy arent we?   Jan

Old, beat up and crotchety would be more like it. ;)  After all, I didn't get by 'copia fix this year!  :-/

dd

Thanks for replys. I need to hear more opinions. As for my weak ankles, I readily admit to that, but at my age and condition, there's not much I can do except support them. As for traction, I know there are no guarantees on wet granite, just looking for optimal traction.

8-)

I used the trekkers for a 16 day trip last year and thought they worked great.  As much support as a pair of lightweight hiking boots, with the combination of the best traction I have felt in a shoe. But a couple seams and the sole up by the toe on one boot is starting to come loose. I might be able to glue it down and hope that works.

Over the years I've used:
Heavy leather hiking boots-no wet foot-awful
LL Bean Maine Guide boots-ok for wet footing but poor traction on wet surfaces.
Trail running shoes-lightweight, great traction and drainage but they allowed alot of sand and gravel to enter.
Lightweight ankle height hikers with extra drainage holes-great traction and support but they still allowed too much sand and gravel inside.
Still looking for the perfect solution.

I wasn't all that impressed with the Quetico Trekkers.  As BrownTrout
mentioned. my boots started comeing unglued after on thier first trip, and the bungee style shoelaces blew out on the third or fourth day.
I sent the boots back to Chota, and they reglued them, and I switched out the bungee cord for paracord, so they are ready for thier second trip.  Hope they do better.  They were comfortable enough- didn't have any issues there.I guess the traction was OK, but I remember slipping on wet rocks a few times when I didn't expect to.  As far as quick drying - mine weren't.    Boots stayed wet and "clammy".  Not saying that they are bad boots, just not worth what they cost - obviously, my opinion seems to be in the minority regarding these boots, but I would not buy another pair (nor would I throw out the ones I have)

I also have a pair of those Play Boots that db recommended, and they are really comfortable.   I've only worn them once or twice though, and not in Quetico.  With limtited experieces, I like them so far.  

I will probably give one of the NRS boots a try for my next last great solution to the great portage boot question.  Or maybe just a pair of non-waterproof lightweight hikers with nylon uppers and vibram soles, if I could find them.

I picked up the old style of patagonia 'marlwalkers' - used them a couple of times last year and I'm very happy with them.  They're entirely synthetic, have a nice lug sole, which flexes enough, but won't let you feel every pebble. They've got drains and screens, and lace up above the ankle. They're built for wading on coral, so they're pretty tough all around.  

Patagonia has 've since re-designed them, and they're now more like a low hiking boot, and the sole isn't the same, so they're probably not a great choice.

The cabela's backcountry wading boot looks like it'd work for wet-footing.  I looked at a pair (briefly) last time I wandered thru Cabelas, and they seemed fairly light but tough enough. They're not horribly expensive either. You'd probably need some decent insoles, and fitting might be an adventure, since they're sized for wearing over stocking foot waders.

The first year we went into Quetico we had the calf high LLBean boots and they killed our feet and we roasted in them so we have switched to sandals. From my experience TEVA has the best traction in water that exists as far as I know. I have just switched from the TEVA Universal Guide to the Chaco Z series sandal because the TEVAs where breaking down on me but I am still skeptical on the Chacos because I just loved that Spider Rubber on the Teva. I could jump on a wet rock with a loaded pack or 2 on and not worry about slipping and falling nearly like I have with the other foot wear options. I know Old Salt that you don't want sandals :D ;) but I am sharing this and it may be helpful if you go with on of TEVAs shoes. ;)

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Hi my name is C-Dub and I have weak ankles.

Actually just one, technically it is called subluxing peroneal tendons, but practically it is just the muscles in my right ankle not catching to straighten the ankle back out until the bottom of my foot it facing sideways.  My ankle problem was generated by two injuries, first was breaking my leg by bending the foot too far backwards during a soccer game, the second was stupidly playing basketball in running shoes.  I came down with a rebound on my brother's foot and the first part of my body to hit the ground was the outside/bottom of my ankle bone (lateral malleolus).  

My solution has been to wear mid/low-grade hiking boots.  I don't think high end boots are made to be wet-footed in.  I think right now I have a $50 pair of High-Tecs.  I have to replace them about every 2 or 3 years so the tread is always pretty fresh and "grippy".  They are mostly synthetic so they dry well in an late afternoon/evening in the sun/wind.  It has been my experience that having a removable insole really helps drying time.  When I went over Memorial day a few years ago I wore neoprene socks underneath to deal with 50 degree water.  The socks I used had gaiters sown in so they kept all of the rocks and sand out of my boots, cabelas sells them under their name.

CW

I recently bought a pair of Merrell Chameleons
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Traction is excellent (except on slippery rocks). They make both low shoes like I got or even above the ankle hikers.  I've really been happy with my purchase, which when it comes to my gear I get pretty picky.

-Shane

Ah, C-dub, ya beat me to a good line.  ;)
Hi, my name is Ghost Paddler and I have weak ankles.  Trashed from playing too much (aw, what am I saying, you can never play too much) Ultimate.
Even with my "weak" ankles, my chotas are for the colder beginning and end of the season. Other than that, I'm a sandle guy.  I've gone through several pairs of tevas in the past 12 or 13 years and generally liked them.  When my last pair wore, I tried a pair of keens.  Put a pair through heavy usage last year and found the stitching blowing out--took them back to REI and got a pair of chacos, which I love--though they haven't faced a full season of use, yet.  The only downside to the chacos is weight, they are considerably heavier than tevas.  When it's not  too frigid, there is nothing like the feeling of feet in the water (the colder water keeps the swelling down in the ankles, too).
With all that in mind, when I go with my spring voyageur buddies, we usually carry one or two ankle aircasts, just in case of a sprain.  

I too have always worn low end light hikers when portaging.  I've been against sandals both from the support aspect, but also worry about exposed toes meeting rocks.  Has anyone tried those H2's by Keen?  Look like they would solve some of the above problems.  What's been your experience ?  Thanks

i have some keen selways.   they DO have a protected toe area.

i didnt think out the small rock/sand thing before i bought them.  VERY annoying and painful (especially when small gravel gets in there)  

good camp kick-arounds tho.

Jan

:-[ :-[,

I GUESS i should of paraphrased my WEAKNESS, comment to say that unless you have orthopedic type injuries, the problem can be corrected.
With some of the injuries posted, I don't think ANY shoe/sandal can get you back to normal ;) ;)
I'm amazed your still portaging at all ;D ;D

bought a pair of salomon amphibians for a 2 week trip in the bw last year.  great traction; show very little wear; dry quickly; and, when worn with a pair of wool socks, hardly any stones.  on the down side they are only ankle height, and they did let a bit of sand in the shoes.  overall, i was very pleased and am looking forward to a second season with them.  good luck finding the perfect shoe/boot!  -harry

That was my issue with the Keen's, as well.  It was too hard to shake loose and annoying pebble or stick while portaging.  The leeches loved the toe-cup, too.  I found a few in there over the season.  Depending on which side of the portage I found them, they were either very happy, or very, very unhappy.

jimbo-how about a product review of the NRS storm boots?

Jimbo may want to wait on product review until AFTER he has done the bushwack in them (assuming he opts to return to civilization and share his findings). However, I find his discernment impeccable, and based on his recommendation, have just ordered a pair of the NRS Storm boots. I will test them on my upcoming trip in late June/early July.  ;)

no problem. anyone else have these boots and care to post up a first hand product review?

jdrocks -

Hey, I only just returned to this thread to see your question... sorry.  OS is exactly right.  While I DO wear my NRS boots around the neighborhood each weekend, walking the dog, etc., & they DO remain comfortable, I really haven't put them to the acid test of Quetico, yet.  I still can't get over how light they are, though.  They look like they'd be so much heavier given all that rubber tread they have.  Anyway, I have high expectations for them.

Also, OS... you had PM'ed about "sizing".  I believe NRS has a very liberal return policy.  If what you order doesn't fit, simply send the boots back until you get the size right.  My oldest son is an avid kayaker (kayaking this week over in New Zealand) & has bought LOTS of stuff from these folks.  He's never had an issue with returns, etc..  fyi

Jimbo   8-)

I put in my order earlier this week. Can't wait to get 'em and try 'em out!  ;) Thanks for recommendation.

I just placed an order for these   (You need to Login or Register. I plan on still bringing my Chota Trekers, just incase the Karmas don't work out.

flp

So many ideas.  I have taken a plunge I have wanted to for a couple years.  I ordered a custom built boot, problem is they will not be ready until June.  I found this company   (You need to Login or Register and I know they are pricy and not for everyone.  I need these, really.  I have one leg that is shorter, I take my dress shoes to a shop to have them ripped apart and a 5/8" build up added to one.  I also have one foot that is just over 1/2 size different.  I try and dry foot but do not worry too much if I go in over the top.  Last spring I got a bad case of trench foot.  I found out the new sandles I bought had a anti-microbial strap across the top of the foot.  Turns out I am alergic to that stuff and now I have to get rid of em.  

make sure you bring the trekkers flpaddler.  i have Keens very similar to the karmas you just ordered....and if you wetfoot, i can almost guarantee you wont be happy with them.   sorry.  gravel and sand get sucked in like you wouldnt believe!   mine are now my camp shoes.  infact, they are my "slippers" at home right now.   i thought they would be the answer...but for me, they werent.

my ankles are still good, so my portage/canoeing boots are cheapa** rubber slop boots from the mans mall.  15" height.  have to admit tho.....i cant wait to take them off when camp is reached!!!!  which, im sure...is the same feeling you neoprene chota owners feel!   $19 FF slop boots....$90 trekkers.   same ankle support.  i think i made a good decision.  and mine dont stink......much.   lol

Jan

I have a pair of the NRS Storm Boots that Navy Seals wear and have used them on 4 or 5 Quetico trips. They are great for traction and support. They keep your feet pretty warm even though they are not waterproof. They are like wearing wetsuit booties with an external support webbing system and a durable, flexible sole. If you get them, get those quick lacing buttons that are available for snugging up boot laces. Then you can cut the laces off short and tuck the ends into the boots. Otherwise, the long laces will snag on everything when bushwhacking. Another suggestion: if you wear them without socks they stick to your feet with unbreakable suction making them really hard to get off when they are wet. Get a couple pairs of those real lightweight polypro liner socks from Wigwam. They are so thin they don't interfer with the boots skintight fit, but they allow a little air to enter the boot when you are trying to get them off at the end of a wetfooting day.

I also have the Chota Breathable Mukluks and have used them on three Quetico trips now. You are absolutly correct about the lack of support and poor traction, especially on slippery rocks and logs. They are warm and dry which is important to me since I go in mid-May every year when wet feet can be pretty miserable.

Not sure yet which ones I'll wear this year.  :-/

Old Salt wrote on Mar 13^th, 2007 at 4:11am:

Thanks for replys. I need to hear more opinions. As for my weak ankles, I readily admit to that, but at my age and condition, there's not much I can do except support them. As for traction, I know there are no guarantees on wet granite, just looking for optimal traction. 8-)

Footwear for the Q has always been an issue...until this spring, when I purchased Muck boots for the trip. We were expecting wet conditions and cold water, so I figured I'd go for dry feet!! I do believe mine are the field boot model, and Muck is the brand name. You can order direct, but I found
mine at a local Tractor Supply chain store. The one in my town didn't carry them, but after hunting a bit I located a store in nearby Wilmington that did. Lucky me!!! They offer great traction, good ankle support...and best of all....DRYNESS!!!   It's amazing, and sounds too good to be true, but they work like a charm. Rubber bottoms, with neoprene that has an inner waterproof membrane for the upper part. These are just below knee height, I'd say 15 " probably. The only downside would be hot weather, for they don't breathe real great, but can be rolled down (think fireman boot) to almost the ankles to allow for ventilation and comfort while paddling, resting, etc. But, for the 90 bucks I spent, they certainly can't be beat.

manufacturer's website   (You need to Login or Register

Zach

P.S. I looked, and they're Muck Boots Wetland™ Premium Field Boot...picture attached...they also have a few other similar but slightly different variations...lower height, heavier or lighter insulation, different treads... :) :) :) best of luck

---

I thought those older patagonia shoes work great also for traction.... and a bit thinner and lighter then the hiking boot style shoes.

Chota Quetico Trekkers teamed with Smartwool socks - Summer - same set-up with Brookie waders early and late season.  Every combination is a compromise - this one offers;

Traction 6.5
Ankle support 7
Comfort 8.5
Quick draining 9
Protection for feet from pebbles, roots and muck 10
durability 9 (I've worn for the past 4 years trips - no significant wear)
Warmth - with Brookies early and late season 10
Weight - 10 These are really quite light. [smiley=thumbup.gif]

So, here I am gearing up for my dream vacation--20 days solo in the Q and I find myself once more pondering the questions that started this thread.  My earlier contributions regarding the Chota mukluk are amended as such:
 While I still find them a decently comfortable boot when you add a good insole, I slipped badly (and was lucky) a couple of times this spring.  Upon examination of the sole, I found that there was significant wear after only two 9 day trips to the Q and one short fall trip in northern Wisconsin (no portages).  Granted, I'm a big guy, and with the addition of pack and canoe, that's a lot of weight bearing on those soft soles.  My coworker, however, is a small woman and her trekkers (same kind of sole) are very worn after just a few trips.  I think I'll be saving those for early/late season wear.  
I did a fair bit of looking around and came back to the NRS storm boot.  Ordered it, waited for it, eagerly tried it on only to have the stitching holding the neoprene inner bootie to the body of the boot rip on the first attempt to get the boot onto my foot.  The "fin tab" on the heel of the same boot was peeling off, as well.  I was disappointed, but tried walking around the neighborhood and wearing them for an evening.  They felt good.  I sent them back to NRS for an exchange and will be taking the replacements to a local cobbler (who is unfazed, thus far, with strange paddling gear requests) for some reinforcement.  They seem like a good boot, and I can't find anything that has a grippy sole anything like it, if not for some shoddy craftsmanship... (upon review, that's a really sad statement--calling it a good product except for the shoddy work--yikes, what have we come to?)
 ..so, I'll give it a try.  Along with my chaco sandals and a pair of soft nylon boat shoes (read, campslippers)  those will be my footwear for the trip.  I'll let you know how they hold up to nearly 2000 rods of double portage sometime after late September.
Cheers,
gp

To make my NRS Storm boots easier to pull on, I added key rings and tabs to the rear pull tabs. I also found that they mate well with Coolmax liner socks. The neoprene slides over it easier than other materials. ;)

During my misspent youth I was a surfer living on Long Island during the late fall and early spring a wet suit was mandatory, the trick we used to get into this second skin was to use a good shake of talc. When talc was not at hand or money was short (always) I would raid my mothers kitchen cabinets for corn starch, BTW corn starch is great for rashes.

flp

Good ideas, folks.  I had forgotten about talcum powder--used to use it with a neoprene knee brace back in my misspent athletic youth.  I tried a sock liner (just the reg polypro--have to try the coolmax) but I love the keyring and tab idea!
Cheers,
gp

For wet footers, just got back from a one week trip in the French River Provincial Park with the boy scouts.  Used Teva Gamma Pro shoes.  If you have good ankles, these were very good shoes.  Tennis shoe height, good mesh, only stones ingested were from over the ankle area and they were very minimal, gripped wet rock very well.  Grade high B, don't know what an A grade would be for shoes.  They worked very well.

for wet footing in the canoe I wear NRS Attack Shoes which are neoprene booties with an insole that provides arch support and an outer sole that refuses to slip on wet rocks. For dry footing I wear Chota breatables. As soon as I disembark at the landing I switch to high cut hiking shoes that have my orthotic arch supports. This gives my feet a rest while around the landing and around camp, and keeps my feet from hurting on the portage or while hiking. The high cut hikers I have are Merrill and HiTech, either pair only weighs 2.5 pounds. I keep them in a lightweight dry bag attached to the outside of my pack. Sometimes I bring my Keen Newport sandals with the toe cups for lounging around camp. They pick up gravel between the foot and footbed if worn in the water. Wearing wool socks with the sandals helps, but not as effective as the NRS Attack shoes. I tie the NRS Attack river shoes to a canoe thwart or my pfd when I'm not wearing them. I also use the river shoes for swimming where it is rocky or mucky. I've never had sand or grit get inside. They are lightweight and supportive enough for short portages unless the terrain is terrible, at which point dedicated hikers are a necessity in my opinion. The attack shoes have a leather patch on both sides of the ankle to help prevent bruising when wading in rocks. The soles are narrow so they don't tend to wedge in rocks the way bulky sandals or hiking boots do.

I used a Teva Gamma Pro water shoe last year at Quetico.
Sticky rubber sole did not slip on wet rocks.
It may not provide enough foot and ankle support for those accustomed to full hiking boots,
but it worked for me on some easy portages from Quetico lake down to Burntside.

I'm a BIG fan of TEVA brand water shoes ;D
IF you don't have ankle-issues, the sticky sole on the TEVA shoes is pretty hard to beat!
I look for discontinued models, CAMPMOR usually has some for half price. I get 2-3 trips out of a pair before the stitching starts wearing from the abrasion on the rocky portages.
Used a Gamma Pro on my trip this May thru some pretty tough portages in the rain and NEVER slipped a bit 8-)
 I like that they are light/drain well/ and unlike some of the sandal/water shoe type footwear, they don't fill with sand and irritate you feet.
I wear with Brookie Knee Highs in spring but if I went in warmer weather I think a low cut wool sock would be a fine alternative ;)

I have to agree with all of solotripper's comments.

An unexpected benefit of the water shoes was wearing them while swimming.
They gave me a lot more confidence and grip entering and exiting the lakes.
I wear sneakers with a wool blend sock around camp.

I usually wear a light polypro sock with my water shoes.

Has anyone used a set of waterproof gaiters over boots? For an in and out I think they would work fine.

butthead

Not gaiters but GT socks and rain pants w/ neoprene cuffs. It's definitely worth a try. The combo surprises me every time. A quick in and out? No worries. Wade into the lake for a few minutes to wash off the mud from a long, wet portage? I was pleasantly surprised. I never did find waterPROOF boots but ya, give it a try.

I've always worn a $15 pair of knee high swampers. They dry fast when you do fill them and they have good traction on muddy trails. I wear wool blend hikin socks as they insulate both from cold but also heat. Only draw back I've had is on very warm sunny days they can get hot. The fix is to step out of the boat in the water and they cool off fast. They also keep my pants clean longer as I useally wear them with the pant legs tucked in. I also wear the pants with the zip off legs that double as shorts. Just one less thing to pack. $0.02

In an effort to drop some weight and not have to lug my boots AND water socks along, I got these for the canoe/portages:

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Then, since my 7yr. old Nike sandals' souls separated on me (finally), I got these for around camp:

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Will just wear wool socks w/ sandals if it gets chilly at night...otherwise deal with it.

The jury is out on both, although they sure feel comfortable around the house!  I'll have something to report once I get back in a few weeks...



 

also have NRS storms. great wet footer boot except for durability issues. mine lasted only one rugged trip and i'll have to contact NRS and give their return/echange policy a test.

What went wrong? Got a pic or are you willing to provide a description?

side vents on both boots came loose. left boot pvc material cracked at foot flex area. right boot pvc stitching came apart at the heel area. i like the boots, i just want them to stay together. they are light, portage much better than you might think just looking at them, do have the non slip tread as advertized, and are comfortable for all day wear. i can see why they say they are favorites for river rescue guys, as i had occasion to swim for my life while wearing them.

Just got back from an 8 day trip and wore my Ecco Track II boots the whole time.  They offer great (really great) traction on the wet rocks and boulders, and in the mud (yes, it rained 4 of the 8 days I was there) and are extremely comfortable.  Highly recommend them but they are a bit pricey (around $225).  But, the Ecco company totally backs up their product.  I bought a pair 10 years ago and just this year the special rubber sole broke down.  Way out of warranty but Ecco replaced them for free anyway.  

Holy Crud, Batman!

For $225 they should tie themselves, clean themselves, and fix breakfast.  ;D

Wif

I'm looking for sticky soled boots. My problem is wet logs and wet river rocks. The river rocks are smoother than the granite rocks on portages in Quetico and exposed to high water that starts moss growing. Shoreline river rocks get slick in a light rain. Also wading on the ones underwater, add current pressures, while wading boats through rapids. It's like dancing on rolling bowling balls. Ankles are OK but still want mid-high support at a minimum.

A fellow river tripper had a pair of Canyoneer II boots from 5.10 and the "Stealth, TM" soles were sticky, but the boots were funky looking and fit badly. But looking for canyoneer boots is close to what I think we need for portaging.

I'm looking at NRS Storm boots, OTB boots, and other companys using 5.10's Stealth soles. Sounds like Chota's Trekkers are off my list though. Razor seaping soles seems to be the latest marketing thing.

I go wet foot in warm weather and can use SealSkins or Chota Brookies in cool weather. I always go wet foot on river trips though.

I bought a pair of the OTB boots.  Haven't used them yet, but they look to be well made, and I hope will be a good choice for a portage boot - hopefully will stick together better than the Chota Trekkers I was disappointed with.  Did some research on the Canyoneer boots - I looked at them also, but seemed to be finding reviews that said they were starting to fall apart fairly quickly, after only one or two trips.

For slick streambed travel, probably your best choices would be a wading boot designed for fly fishing.  I've used a couple of differt pairs, but never with the felt soles - they seem to work well enough for the river use I have been using them for.

Stealth rubber is sticky on dry rock, but slick on wet rock, by the way, though my climbing shoes don't have any tread on them - that might make a difference.

"My problem is wet logs and wet river rocks. The river rocks are smoother than the granite rocks on portages in Quetico and exposed to high water that starts moss growing."

The standard fly-fishing answer to moss and other slick surfaces is felt soles.

There's a version of of the Chota QT - the Brookie, I think it is - that has both rubber and a felt patch under the forefoot.  Check any fly fishing store that carries Chota stuff.

There are a few other wading boots with a combo sole also.

Smooth pink granite (when wet) is something to respect as well. Wet logs? Good luck w/that. Wood sensing studs would be cool eh?  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

The problem with thick hard soles is you can't feel what you're stepping on and the sole can't wrap the surface.

The problem with really soft rubber soles (and maybe felt?) is sticks will puncture the sole. That's happened to me twice. Once w/ tennies n once w/ Tevas - real wake up calls for me. Never wore either of those or anything like 'em on a trip since the second time.

The soles of my boots are 1/8" (maybe 3/16") thick and I often go w/o the insoles. The tread depth is 1/16". I feel they give me the best footing I've found plus they don't rip up the campsites as much and they're lighter. They are very puncture resistant as I've tested them. The big drawback with them is they're not made anymore.

For travel in cold water/weather condition consider Muck Boots. Rubber bottoms, neoprene tops in a variety of soles. Work like old style rubber boots except that they are warm and comfortable. [the "Woody Sport" model comes with "stealth" soles]

Solus, I've been using some old Northern "Muck" boots for  my spring /fall trips. They're too warm for summer. Plus if you slip and go over the top you get a "full booter". The nice thing about muck boots is they don't retain moisture on the outside, i.e. less evaporative cooling.

Mad_Mat, OTB says they aren't suppose to retain much water in their material. Let me know how the evaporative cooling is in cold weather. Plus MM, I'd sent you a message with my email address, but I spelled out "at" and "dot" to keep spammers from picking it up. Hope that didn't throw you.

I ordered some Vasque mid-high hikers and a pair of Chaco's, both with the stealth sole. Also have a pair of Chota Quick-Lace mukluk's coming for local winter paddling. I feel they may be too light for portage work. Anybody try the Chota Q-L or breathable mukluks on real portage trails? (I'll scan back through the pages) Wish Chota hadn't discontinued the Nuvavut. I would have liked to try that one. When my new stuff comes I write a review.

Solus, I was refering to muck boots as a general term for all high rubber boots. Now I see it's a brand name. I did some looking online and found some locally but have yet to get a chance to check them out.

Muck Boots are pretty much just a more comfortable version of the traditional high rubber boots. They will still give you the "full booter" if you go over the top (so far I haven't managed to sink that far). Good for cold water conditions or wet portages, if used in the summer I think you'd want to slip them off while paddling. Probably not very good for wading in rapids, "full booter" + strong current = bad combo.

On the plus side they are really comfortable, durable and easy to get in and out of. Oh yeah, they float too.

No one has mentioned Snake boots!. Lighter that rubber boots, lighter than many hiking boots.  15" high waterproof, great ankel support and resonable in price if found on E-bay.  I use a pair this spring and will not use other wise when portaging.  I used the rubber boots, they are now on the bottom of Pickrel Lake, wore sandals and wool socks for next 10 days, with temps in the 50s and rain.  I don't like cold, clammy feet especially when fishing all day or doing many portages. ;)

GSP wrote on Dec 16^th, 2007 at 5:08pm:

I used the rubber boots, they are now on the bottom of Pickrel Lake,

>:( >:( >:(

Too lazy to paddle them out and dispose of them properly?

No actually it was trying to swim with them in 45 degree water and 3' waves.  But at least no one died. :o

and I don't think if you knew me, you wouldn't put me in the lazy category.  In 54 trips I have carried out more than taken in, always left firewood for the next, helped groups across portages, shared my food and knowledge to keep newbies safe.

Maybe you could of asked what happened instead.

GSP wrote on Dec 16^th, 2007 at 8:52pm:

and I don't think if you knew me, you wouldn't put me in the lazy category.  In 54 trips I have carried out more than taken in, always left firewood for the next, helped groups across portages, shared my food and knowledge to keep newbies safe. Maybe you could of asked what happened instead.

If you had told us more about yourself, then we would have known you better. Sorry I made wrong assumption. Sounds like you belong here. Hope to get to know you better. 8-)

Shucks, I thought I would be the 1st one to mention snake boots but GSP beat me too it!!!!
I picked up a set at "Sports Authority" in Anchorage when I was in town last year.  They had them on closeout.  Started at around $100 I think & they were down to $19!  I guess they forgot there are no snakes in Alaska when they ordered them. BUT, being 15", Gortex, & only $19 (Lacrosse brand) I figured I'd give them a try on an upcoming trip.
Have to say I was impressed.  When these wear out I'll get another set, even at full price.  Very light & ankle support is great on rough portages.

GSP, I'd like to hear the storry on your "swim".

try swimming with snake boots on. that's my new test for paddling footwear, in addition to my other criteria-can i swim well enough to save myself with the footwear on in the event of a mishap. and no, i don't mean can i get the boots off while in the water, and then swim-i mean can i swim with those boots laced, strapped, buckled, whatever, on my feet.

I think the "swim" test isn't a bad idea for portage boot criteria ;)
Depending on water temp and wave conditions you might NOT have time to get your foot gear off if you can't at least dog paddle with them on? I changed my thoughts on footwear after reading Jimbo's story regarding the guy who's hip style boots almost drowned him!
Coming a shore with bare or stocking feet could be tough depending on the shore conditions.
I tested my PFD and shoes by wading out at my local lake and trying to swim parallel to the shore for a ways.
You want your PFD to fit well enough its not floating off you or hindering your swim stroke.
Better to find out in conditions you pick rather than the worse case scenario ;)

"I tested my PFD and shoes...."

you did it the right way, i tested my gear the hard way. after upgrading my pfd two years in a row, your observation is correct-it won't work well unless properly adjusted, and in my case,  also zipped up all the way. nearly cost me. my change to lighter boots this season probably saved me. so i would recommend your test.

bumped this old portage boot thread...

i sent back my second pair of NRS Storm boots. i really like these boots, but they simply will not hold together. the NRS guy that handles this account said they seem to be having QC problems on the manufacturing end and are not going to offer them again until it's corrected. too bad, this was by far the best wet footer portage boot out there. NRS stands by their gear warranty, and issued a full refund.

jdrocks, I got an NRS "rescue catalog" that shows they now carry the OTB's. Give their 800 # a call and ask about them. I'll bump the OTB tread up too.

jdrocks wrote on Sep 25^th, 2008 at 8:31pm:

bumped this old portage boot thread... i sent back my second pair of NRS Storm boots. i really like these boots, but they simply will not hold together. the NRS guy that handles this account said they seem to be having QC problems on the manufacturing end and are not going to offer them again until it's corrected. too bad, this was by far the best wet footer portage boot out there. NRS stands by their gear warranty, and issued a full refund.

Geez, this has got to be a "hit or miss" thing.  I am notoriously rough on footwear & have put my NRS Storm Boots through horrors.  They've held up fine for 2-3 years.  One thing I've done that might be helping is treating them fairly regularly with ArmorAll & other protectants.  

I hope they get a handle on their manufacturing quality issues.  I really like the boots & they would be 1st choice in the future... unless I hear more of these reports!

Jimbo   8-)

3 out of 4 of us had NRS storms on our recent 15 day wabakimi adventure. all were purchased this year and all were the updated 2008 boots. mine had the zippered tongues, but the other pairs did not. my right boot came apart while the left was somewhat better, although in another week would have been the same. the other two pairs were pretty good, but had started to separate at the toe caps and foot flex areas. surprisingly, NRS claims that they have not had similar problems with their work boot model, even though they look like they're made by the same manufacturer.

i kept the boots together with two part epoxy from our boat repair kit.

when they get things straightened out, i'll order another pair. they're perfect for where we go and the way we travel, but my camp shoes will now be lace up and portage capable.

again, this is the second pair i have returned. the 08 boots addressed the defects i listed in my cover letter when i returned the last pair, but now the whole boot came apart. it's the manufacturing process, not the design.

solotripper wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 9:08pm:

OS,  WHEN people talk about ankle support, what there really telling you is they have WEAKNESS" in there supporting muscles around the foot area.

st... I'd have to strongly disagree with you on this one.

Why do you think the Marines don't make a habit of wearing sneakers? Nor the Army, nor any Ranger I've met in the parks... while on a serious expedition.  Ankle support eh?... and I doubt they have weak ankles.  ;)

I myself have been wearing chotta trekkers for several years.. and am now opting for something that does not self drain...and perhaps with more ankle support as it is just plain smart.

I also have come to the conclucsion that self draining boots low cut or with booties on may not always be wise as the draining action creates wet rocks which creates more slippage. :o



k

the 4th guy in our group had Chotas and said he wished he was wearing Storms. the Storms fit snug, there's no puddle of water when they drain.

the Storms also have a grippy lug sole that works as advertised.

Kawishiway wrote on Sep 26^th, 2008 at 3:17am:

solotripper wrote on Mar 12th, 2007 at 9:08pm: OS,  WHEN people talk about ankle support, what there really telling you is they have WEAKNESS" in there supporting muscles around the foot area. st... I'd have to strongly disagree with you on this one. Why do you think the Marines don't make a habit of wearing sneakers? Nor the Army, nor any Ranger I've met in the parks... while on a serious expedition.  Ankle support eh?... and I doubt they have weak ankles.  ;) k

I think support isn't the same as "protection"?
Higher boots will protect you from abrasions/sharp objects etc, AND if you have "weak" ankles they'll help in that aspect as well. You can't really know if the Marines/Rangers have weak ankles unless you could see them wearing low cut shoes in the same conditions. Ever see all those National Geographic expeditions, other than the Arctic ones. The Native guides are carrying the majority of the load and most of the time there wearing some sandal type shoe or in warm areas, Bare feet??
 They can do that because from childhood they've conditioned those "ankle/tendons" to handle the stress and strain. Wearing boots wouldn't help them in the support aspect, protection is a separate issue.
 I never wear high boots/athletic sneakers and have never had a issue with my ankles.  My close friend who is a personal trainer and has his Masters in Exercise science went to a workshop for athletes taught by Chiropractors and Podiatrists. It was all about learning how to analyze an athletes gait and how feet and ankle alignment determined if you would have knee/hip/lower back problems. One of the things they discussed was so called "weak ankles". Barring injury, if your experiencing pain, its because your feet/ankle muscles/tendons are not "in shape" for whatever you may be doing. Remember the old school basketball shoes? They were all high tops, it was believed that they offed the best ankle support. Modern era players wear low cuts for the most part or maybe mid-height. Modern training methods/drills/machines allow them to build there ankle/foot strength and avoid problems from normal wear and tear.
My friend used to teach group exercise classes, aerobics/step/spinning.
I averaged 5 days a week for about 12 years and all that twisting, turning, jumping has really strengthen my ankles/tendons.
 Would I wear low shoes in all conditions? Probably not, if I was hiking/hunting in real rocky terrain, I would wear maybe a 6" boot for protection, but not for the support.
 Ever see those guy's in the gym wearing the big leather back support belts? I'm not talking about the big power lifters moving massive weights, just average guy's/gals trying to stay in shape.
 Assuming they don't have disk problems, wearing that belt can actually do more harm than good, believe it or not. Any Chiropractor/MD will tell you that the best way to help a bad back is to lose your gut and strengthen your abdominals. Wearing that belt, allows you to lift weights that your core muscles wouldn't normally be able to control. It gives you a false sense of security. You'll see a lot of guys with big guts wearing those belts, when they should be working on losing there belly's and building core strength which is the foundation for all athletics, especially strength based sports. These are the people who will tell you how much they can lift in the gym and then while doing a seemingly easy chore at home without the "girdle", blow there backs out and can't understand why?
 IF wearing high boots keeps you injury free, then by all means you should do that. If you have ankle weakness, you can do exercises to strength that area, just like any other one. If you've been injured and have damage/pins your probably not going to be able to gain muscle/tendon strength and the higher boots would be the way to go in that case.

I wore the same pair of snakeboots for the 3rd year and they are still in good shape.  The goretex is holding well, no problems with the soles, feet stay dry and great ankle support and foot/leg protection.  Remember there is a difference in snakeboot style, there a rubber ones just like muck/knee high boots, there are ones that have a zipper up the front, neither of which is what I wear.  I prefer and wear Cabelas laced, goretex/leather boots.  You can adjust and tighten the support as needed.  

I can and have swam in the snakeboots to test them out.  More importantly, I know they stand up to the wear and tear, and Cableas will replace them if they fail.   My trip partner has worn the Chotas for 3 years after trying my boots this year, he is buying a pair of snakeboots.

OK I can't resist any longer!

Speaking from an over weight, 30 year construction battered roof and ladder beaten ankles I'll tell you, I have to have the high tops to make it through a trip.  
I have even had issues in the woods where it may take an hour before I can actually put weigh on my ankles without the pain or the feeling they might pop out of socket.  
My preferred boots are the Rocky Bear Claw.  I almost always wear the insulated boot year round.  
st
I can grasp the idea of training and getting this under control, especially working one into a better tone of physic.  You younger guys take his advise and get in shape  ;D  Myself I'm sticking to the big gut, bad ankles, and wise cracks.   ::) Kinda like trying to teach an old dog a new trick.  Can it be done? Possibly!  But then I wouldn't be able to come home from a trip and get all that pampered attention I so desire from Mrs. qp   ;D

I do however wonder about this conditioning issue.  Is it possible to go bare foot in the cold temps and condition my feet to say warm?   :o  I get a lot of attention upon my return from the Q, but getting my stinky feet rubbed is NOT one of them.  

Further more in my Boot Garden, yes you are reading this correctly.  When the boots wear out it’s hard for me to part with all the memories I cherished trekking in the woods.  Filling the boots with dirt, you can grow a wide variety of flowers or vegetables.  Esp. the veggies dry them and eat them on your next trip in the woods.  It’s almost like taking 2 pairs of boots on a trip, less the weight of one pair.  The high top boots do remarkably well growing carrots. Hey, what can I say, I got good eye sight as long as I can find my glasses.   :D

qp

Well...st... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree... but then again..you don't have to agree to at all.  My one feeling will stay intact and with out blemish.. no harm no foul.

As far as doc's go.. well you probably wouldn't care for my opinion of them but here goes.

Once upon a time I was at a wedding of the sister of a gal I was dating.  Her Dad was the administrator for the Bemidji hospital at the time.  Of course there was a majority of doc's at this wedding.. including the new hubby of his daughter.  The gal I was datings dad (dad of the bride) asked me to sit with him at the wedding reception..rather than sit with a bunch of docs he chose to sit with me and his contractor brother.  He told me he got sick and tired of the high opinion most doc's have of themselves  and of their own opinion's... preferred the common man and common sense as opposed to theory after theory after theory... you get the idea.

Me?  How do I feel?  Never trust a man that would rather push drugs your way than recommend a good vitamin.  I also lack respect for folks that hurd people through their office like sheep requiring them to be on time yet making the customer wait ...typicaly a 1/2 hour plus beyond the scheduled meeting time.  Give the docs a piece of your mind I say! ;D Sorry DD... no offense meant or any other docs on the page...

By the way..speaking of common sense...

QP...here you say you grow some mighty fine vegetables in them there worned out boots?  Seems to me ya atta try mushrooms.  After all..they is a fungus.   ::)

k

a dry boot, even if knee high, just doesn't work for me. wet footing i'd be over the tops every day and would have to deal with boots full of water. having your feet in water inside a non draining boot every day is a whole different story than having wet feet with a draining boot.

i think i'll try the NRS work boot if new Storms aren't available until 8/09 like i was told the other day.

QP,
 I worked commercial construction for 15 years, and toward the end, my ankles and feet were hurting from hours on a ladder like yours.
 I see some  of the newer extension ladders have flatter wider rungs compared to the old round ones that are hell on your insteps.
 Yes, you could rehabilitate those old ankles/feet, but not until you give up climbing up and down ladders, which isn't a natural thing for your feet to be doing. Love the "shoe" garden idea, bet that gets some conversations going ;)
k,
  We can agree on one thing, I don't like the drugs/operate mentality of many physicians. The guy I mentioned became interested in the "healing" side of health and fitness and was at one time thinking of going to Med school. He had family members/personal issues with the whole drug/operate mentality and went in a more Natural Healing direction. He's in the last semester of a 4 year program in Traditional Chinese Medicine. Once he's finished, he has to certify with the state of CA, a very demanding test, then will be a Licensed Acupuncturist and Herbalist. He's in his "needling/herbal" internship now and feels vindicated that he chose the right path. There is a growing movement in this country by people who want less invasive methods than surgery and don't want to be depended on drugs. There will always be cases which only surgery or specialized drugs will do the trick, but is hoping for the day when both Western/Eastern medicine will come together in the interest of what's the best for the patient, regardless of what treatment they choose. Many of his Chinese medicine teachers, are also Md's and see the two styles as being complimentary and not competitive. I would always opt for the natural way if I have the choice but that is a personal decision we all have to make?

fwiw:
Used  a pair of 'Altma 3LC',   (You need to Login or Register
jungle boots going up Stuart River and out Horse River/Mudro. Wet footed all landings and waded thru several rapids. Some long portages and the climb from Sandpit to Mudro.
Lots of traction on all surfaces except moss/slime covered rocks underwater. Full shank meant walking over sharp pointy rocks and such was no trouble. Good protection over and above the ankle. Drained well. Worn with Smartwool socks. Good fit, I take 8 1/2 EEE size, bought 9 wide. Had room for liner socks and heavy hiking socks. Dried out overnite, faster than the wool socks.
A bit heavy, but are now my paddling boots of choice.

butthead

One more for the mix - a fly fishing boot with ankle support and rubber soles from Cabela's:

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I find them more comfortable than combat boots, and by taking out the insoles, you can wear neoprene socks for very cold conditions.

Having not had a chance to read all of the above (though I read the first few pages last year) here is some of my two cents:

Chota's Breathable Mukluks:  I got a pair of these two years ago for a fall trip into Quetico (9 days).  My then girlfriend got a pair as well (hers have held up better than mine, but she uses them less and weighs 80-100# less than me).  On the second day, one of the laces tore through one of the loops.  On closer examination later, it turned out that the loop is made of one piece of tough nylon covered with a second piece of cosmetic fabric.  The actual loop that the shock cord was supposed to go through had been epoxied closed and the cord simply ran through the cosmetic stuff.   I later fixed this.  I wore them again the next spring on an 8 day trip.  By the end of the second trip, the soles were worn almost smooth and had almost no traction on many surfaces--I slid out a couple of times (to be fair, I am a big guy and have a bit of a limp, so between Q granite and my weight I put a lot of stress on boot soles--still I would have hoped the soles would have lasted longer).  Another friend who was wearing the same boots (for the first time) wiped out on a rock race and was badly hurt (we got lucky and were able to air-evac him thanks to some other canoeists with a SAT phone).  Granted he was moving too fast on a slippery surface.  I had a local cobbler put a material called Aqua Stealth on the soles for this spring.  It's a rock-climbing sole material.  This stuff was awesome and gave me better grip than almost anything I have ever worn and seems to have held up well to a fair bit of abuse this past year.  My right boot has leaked since mid-way through the second trip.  Not terribly, but the whole point of these things is that you are going for dry feet.  This fall, an entire lace loop tore out of one side of the boot when I was lacing up.  The boots have very little arch support so I found it necessary to us a pair of Super Feet insoles.  
All in all I am unimpressed.  Considering that the boots cost over $100 initially I found the construction to be somewhat shoddy.  With resoling and inserts, they cost me about $70 more.  Not enough bang for the buck.  The only real plus is having (mostly) dry feet and warmth.

NRS Storm boots:  I am generally a wet-footer except for the serious cold water season.  Because I am usually paddling solo, I find it very advantageous to be able to get wet to the thighs if need be at difficult landings, etc.  The Storm boots have worked very well for me.  Traction is good, as is ankle support.  I did use a better insole (again, the Super Feet) which I think helps.  I also had the local cobbler add an additional loop on the back of the neoprene booty and reinforce the stitching between the booty and the back of the boot to prevent the booty from tearing away from the boot itself when pulling it on.  I would recommend this.  Used with a polypro or silk sock liner they are pretty comfortable, though after a long day in them I'm usually looking forward to getting them off and de-pruning the feet.  A bad rock/root snag did catch and tear one boot above the toe (a dumped me headlong--pack, canoe and all) which will need a repair, but they held up admirably otherwise.  They've stood up to 70-80 days of use in the lake country since last fall and will take a lot more.
 
That is my (long-winded) opinion.  Probably more like a dime than two cents.
Cheers and happy portaging,
GP

I've got to add to my last long post.  My first pair of Storm boots got sent back because the booties and boots separated on the first attempt at pulling them on.  They were great about replacing them.
On closer inspection, the boots do have some separation happening, though nothing critical.  
I am very lucky that we have a great cobbler here in Madison who is also a paddler.  She does great work at reasonable prices.  I'll be taking my boots to her for necessary repairs instead of trying to get NRS to work on them.

solotripper wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 9:08pm:

When people talk about ankle support, what there really telling you is they have weakness" in there supporting muscles around the foot area. IF you have that problem and want to fix it and not just hide it with high boots and restrictive lacing techniques, you can go to a running store and buy a balance trainer and that will fix you right up! its basically a circular piece of wood with a central pivot point that you can adjust for angle. The idea is to strengthen the weak muscles by balancing yourself on it a few minutes each day.

ST,

I know we've already discussed this this concept of strengthening your ankles, and I took the side of high tops aiding in support...

Though I have to stand back a moment and tell you I was at a friends place the other day and he was showing his house to a few of us.  Well wouldn't you know, he had one of these ankle rockers you speak of.  I asked him what this odd contraption was.. he informed me of what it was,  and that he attests to it's value.  I'm not saying I'm going to run out and purchase one today.. but may eventualy.  I stay fairly active and ankle conditoning is not at a high priority today... though things change.

Turns out you had a good point.

k

k,
   Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then ;D
 Obviously, if you have had injuries too your ankles that required surgery or suffered damage that can't be repaired, your weakness might be permanent. However, like any muscle group, you feet/ankles respond to exercise and that balance trainer is one of the best ways to get at all those small supportive muscles. IF your feeling adventurous, try it out the next time your at your friends house, I can tell you that it will surprise you how hard it is to stay balanced, and how fast you'll feel any inherent weakness you have! Anything you can do to strengthen your ankles, regardless of shoe choice is well worth doing if your a outdoor enthusiast.

To strengthen your ankles - here's what a Physical Therapist told my son to do after a high-ankle sprain:

balance on each foot (lifting the other off the ground) as long as you can.
repeat.

The wobble board adds additional range of motion, but just balancing on 1 foot strengthens all the muscles involved in balancing.  

If you're a wet-footer, look for rubber soled wading boots or boots for wet-foot fishing on coral. The original Patagonia 'marlwalkers' are what I use - and I don't just use them canoeing - I wet wade for smallmouth in them.

The chota mukluk soles are horrible on every surface, wet or dry. Like the warm feet when the waters cold, but they are slippery on everything.

I like the LL Bean Maine Hunter with the highest leather. Not totally waterproof. There is slight seepage but foot never gets soaked, just damp. Never bothers me and I don't think I'd like the other option of soaked feet all day. They offer a good tradeoff between hard sole and feeling the ground. Excellent traction and excellent ankle support. Need to rub a leather waterproofer into the uppers before the trip.

I'll second the Maine Hunting Shoe as a good canoe boot.  I have the 14", but wish I would have bought the 16".  They aren't for everyone as your feet do get wet if you stand in the water for prolonged periods, but as the previous post stated it usually isn't a soaking.  You also need a little patience to tie the laces to the top!  They are excellent for wading rapids; the high leather tops protect your ankles and legs when your feet slip between rocks.  In addition, they won't flood with water like rubber boots, so they would be relatively safe if you dump in moving water.  The bottoms are resolable so they aren't throwaway footware like just about every other shoe today.  The bottoms feel like almost like moccasins resulting in a surprisingly nimble boot.  They also can be used for other activities like hunting, hiking or just walking around the town.  I also use mine in the winter with heavy wool socks when the temps aren't too low.

Hey all,
Look what's back and check the new price!

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i was on the phone with NRS this past wednesday checking on the credit for the OTB boots i sent back after they fell apart. the customer service guy said the new storms were in the online catalog but not print catalog. he said it's too new for feedback on the durability issues that plagued this boot previously. price is up 40%.

still my first choice.

Next season I will be doing my sixth trip in the older version of the storms. Some of those trips were extremely rugged. This will likely be their last season and I will have to think about whether I want to spring the extra 40% for the new version.

+$50 !!

I just received, and sent back a pair of the new Storms.
I had the previous version and loved them but they fell apart after 15 days use.  The new versions have a lot more of the thicker rubber reinforcing.  They felt a lot stiffer and less comfortable than the old ones.  They also no longer have drainage holes [smiley=thumbdown.gif].  I've had great service from NRS but I really wish they would have solved the durability issues without redesigning the boot.  I guess I'm going to try the OTBs and hope they last.

It sounds like the redesigned Storm boot is alot more like their Workboot which is priced far less.

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I have a pare of there storm boots and have used them for several years.  The drain holes are at the arch.  When you are getting in the canoe and you hold your foot up behind you your toe is down and holds water.  After you get in the canoe if you hold your foot over the edge to drain  your heal is down and it holds water.  If you put them flat on the bottom of the canoe the water runs out.  I don’t think they get the idea of drain holes. Useful drain holes are in the toe and heal.
MagicPaddler

outdoors-if you liked the old storms but wore them out in 15 days, you will also wear out the OTB in the same time but won't like the boot while you do so. if they eliminated the drainage mesh, they were trying to solve one of the wear issues. the mesh on the old storms would wear right through in short order.

kingfisher-the old storms were not at all like the work boot, so if the new ones are, that's going the wrong direction. the NRS work boot looks and feels like it should be priced at $14.99/pair.

magicpaddler-i never had a problem with the storms holding water.

wrote on Dec 19^th, 2009 at 3:57pm:

The drain holes are at the arch.  When you are getting in the canoe and you hold your foot up behind you your toe is down and holds water.  After you get in the canoe if you hold your foot over the edge to drain  your heal is down and it holds water.  If you put them flat on the bottom of the canoe the water runs out.  I don’t think they get the idea of drain holes. Useful drain holes are in the toe and heal. MagicPaddler

I wholeheartedly agree with you on that Magic. I have something sort-of similar to the storms w/ drain holes on both sides of the arches. They work fine if your still walking but in our case, we're not.

What I normally have done is just get in the boat and when it's convenient; simply put my calves on the gunnels and lay back and let what little water there is, drain out the top. Any loose water escapes (plus my back enjoys it anyway).

Once underway, I may still have to sponge out some water depending on socks, season and how dry I want to be - time and temp wise among other minor considerations like how long till they get submerged again.... I do like to keep my feet as dry as possible whenever possible though. I switch 'em out for a drier pr of the same thing before setting up camp.

At one time I had 3 or 4 useable pairs of the same boots simply because they worked for me and were discontinued. I blew out another pair last trip so now I have two pair and a orphaned right or left - I forget. If my feet get any bigger I'm screwed anyway. Over the years I've spent more money on boots than anything besides the canoe and maybe even food so I'm hoping someone comes up with something better I can also swim in by time I need to retool footwear yet again. (The ability to swim in them is a priority to me.)

You'd think my wife would be a handy expert but NOOOOOOO!

Mister_Bubble wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 2:57pm:

To strengthen your ankles - here's what a Physical Therapist told my son to do after a high-ankle sprain: balance on each foot (lifting the other off the ground) as long as you can. repeat. The wobble board adds additional range of motion, but just balancing on 1 foot strengthens all the muscles involved in balancing.   If you're a wet-footer, look for rubber soled wading boots or boots for wet-foot fishing on coral. The original Patagonia 'marlwalkers' are what I use - and I don't just use them canoeing - I wet wade for smallmouth in them. The chota mukluk soles are horrible on every surface, wet or dry. Like the warm feet when the waters cold, but they are slippery on everything.

All,

Re-reading this thread, I noticed Mr. Bubble's comments on "ankle-strengthening".  The exercise he mentions targets the muscles around the ankle.  I have a few additional comments re: strengthening the all-too-important ligaments & tendons around the ankle.

First of all, I am a former world-class professional in the world of broken & sprained ankles.  Way too much basketball as a youth.  Way too much basketball while favoring one ankle... just to go ahead & sprain/break the other one.  Many, many casts on my ankles.  MANY other times there SHOULD have been casts on my ankles.  I was way too slow to learn; way too impatient to wait for full recoveries.  Ultimately, when I couldn't go on in the same mode any longer, a doc sat me down & pointed out how I had three quarters-of-an-inch too much "play" with ligaments on one foot and nearly the same on the other.  That's when he started me on a therapy to tighten them up.

Listen, Grasshopper, to the wisdom of "Duck Walking", a real pearl of wisdom to be snatched from my hand in our temple of QJ lore!

Essentially, this wobbling gait/art form involves walking on the sides of your feet.  You start by walking around on your insteps with outer edges of your feet tipped up (left edge of left foot tipped up; right edge of right foot tipped up).  Okay, so you do that for 5 minutes, then proceed to go another 5 minutes walking on the outer edges of your feet (previously tipped up) while your insteps are now turned up towards your crotch.  Then you switch back & forth for about 20 minutes.  Do it a couple times a day, at least.  Quacking like a duck is deemed both holistic & therapeutic but, actually, I found it to be completely optional with respect to the efficacy of the exercise.

Grasshopper, I heartily recommend performing this exercise while NO ONE is around.  Verily, you shall look pretty _________  stupid throughout the duration of the exercise.

Doc says the exercise tightens up loose ligaments & tendons... which are, 9 out of 10 times, the true culprit of most ankle sprains & breaks.  Doc is either right-on, gets strange pleasures out of asking his patients to do weird stuff... or both.  Anyway, I haven't had major ankle issues in decades.

So, after you do Mr. Bubble's exercise for your muscles (think "Karate Kid" doing the "preying mantis" thing on the solitary wooden pylon out there off the California coast), you can complete your Kwai Chang ankle-warrior training by following through with the Jimbo Duck Walk regimen.

Such is the path of wisdom to healthier ankles, Grasshopper!  

Enough wise quacks for now.  

Jimbo (QJ Shaolin Master)  8-)

Quote:

Doc says the exercise tightens up loose ligaments & tendons... which are, 9 out of 10 times, the true culprit of most ankle sprains & breaks.

Thanks QJ  Shaolin Master Jimbo, I feel somewhat vindicated in my "muscle weakness" comments at the start of this thread.
I think Mr Bubble and myself are just describing the "other" side of the coin, in regard to ankle problems, not associated with bone damage that changes the re-hab equation.

I don't believe you can strengthen one, without strengthening the other.
I believe your Duck Walk is a specific type exercise while the balance board is more in the line of overall ankle/foot health.
I know people who had surgery with very poor results because they were told you couldn't re-hab their specific problem?

 Might or might not of been true, but I would give the re-hab (balance board/Duck walks a chance before I let someone cut on me. Surgery and drugs have their place, but so does more body friendly techniques.
Considering the cost of surgery/ Hospital re-hab and drug costs/side effects, that $20 dollar balance board/Shaolin Duck Walks seems  a real bargain ;)

Jimbo wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 11:40pm:

OS, You may recall I went around in the high riding neoprene Chotas last summer.  They keep feet dry & I'd say they make a fine cold water boot.  I'll definitely wear mine again... but NOT this year.  In any case, Old Rookie posted a recommendation re: NRS Storm Boots where he listed this link:   (You need to Login or Register Jimbo   8-)

Well Jimbo, now that the WCPP is behind you, what did you think of your new boots?  BTW, the link you provided says they're not available, so I have no idea what they look like.

I'm in the market for boots this year, and will probably get another pair of Chotas...unless I hear of something better.

Looks like I'll be making my second WCPP trip at the end of the summer.  And THANK YOU for your kind reference to my BWJ article in your piece!  Nice article BTW!

prouboy

Prouboy,

Hey, YOU'RE the guy who put me on to the place!  Barring unforeseen developments, I'm heading back to WCP, again, myself.  From my point of view, it is an outstanding park!  Then, again, it is tough to have a bad trip anywhere with the company I've been keeping in recent years.  Anyway, I'm planning a particularly aggressive WCP route for this summer.  Think solitude & walleyes that have never seen a fishing lure before....

I DO like my Chotas but NOT where terrain poses challenges for my ankles.  I've had too many ankle issues over the years to invite that sort of trouble again.  NRS Boots are great but, apparently, they don't make them like they used to.  Fortunately, mine probably have another year or two of wear in them.  They did very well in WCP.  I wish NRS would get back to the old program & turn out something similar!

Butthead got my attention with his earlier post referring to Altama Military Spec Jungle Boots.  I thought I had found an outstanding 50% sale price on a pair but it turns out they were closeouts that - well - closed out before I could get to them.  At full price (anywhere from $107-160) I'm not sure they're such a deal.

I might take a closer look at the Quetico Trekkers to see what they're all about.  Boots may be on my 'Copia shopping list this year.  "Deals" & good ankle support are strongly preferred....

Jimbo   8-)

Jimbo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2010 at 3:02am:

Anyway, I'm planning a particularly aggressive WCP route for this summer.  Think solitude & walleyes that have never seen a fishing lure before....

Okay Jimbo, FORGET about boots.  Solitude and walleyes that have never seen a fishing lure before...

Let's talk!  PM me!  I'm dying!

prouboy

U guys! Gear heads! Boots! Give me the eyes and the solitude and i'll hobble anywhere, u know that is the truth. Hint Hint. How about the Bloodvein or maybe the "Haugherty"?

Orb boots almost half off on their site. Green only.

jdrocks,

What is an orb boot?  Where might their website be found?

I'm pretty good w/Google & yet I'm coming up with nothing.  Is "orb" a shortened or insider version of some brand or kind of boots?  If so, I guess I've never heard of them.  Neither can I find any earlier reference to orb boots utilizing the QJ search function.

As I may yet be in the market for good portage boots, I'd like to learn more about good discounted boots.  Equally of interest to me, however, is how I am coming up w/zilch searching for them.

Thanks,

Jimbo   8-)

Jimbo wrote on Jan 14^th, 2010 at 8:24pm:

What is an orb boot?  Where might their website be found?

Just a guess, but he could be referring to:

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Maybe not.  I did a quick scan, but didn't find any half-off deals there.

BTW:  I'm trying out the Abyss model for the coming canoe season.

dd

OTB
direct from their page.  $70

Green only.

Thanks for the translation, dd.  It's the OTB ODHIN style that is on sale (as jdrocks says "in green only") for $69.95  (see:   (You need to Login or Register ).  You got to first click on "tactical water" to get there.  Looks to be a decent deal to me.

Now I know what an orb boot is....

Jimbo   8-)

the ORB is the deluxe model, tough to find though.


...just trying to give you guys a heads up on that price. lowest i've seen for these boots if you happen to like that style of wetfooter. posted from my phone.

Does anyone know if these run as the size is advertised or do they tend to run smaller or larger?  Thx.

smaller

pine_knot wrote on Jan 15^th, 2010 at 1:35am:

Does anyone know if these run as the size is advertised or do they tend to run smaller or larger?  Thx.

jdrocks wrote on Jan 15^th, 2010 at 1:54am:

smaller

The inserts take up room.  They will be very close to size WITHOUT the inserts (but you'll probably prefer to have at least one of them.)

BTW:  Both Ohdin AND Abyss are on sale for $70.  I just didn't change to Green.  I'm hoping green may be a tad cooler in the mid-summer heat.  

dd

regarding sizing, I bought a pair of size 8 Abyss boots, after talking with a guy at OTB about the sizing.

I wear sz 8 shoes, but 8 1/2 in hiking boots to have extra room for thick socks - I normally wear 3 layers; a thin liner/wicking sock, a lightweight wool sock, and a heavy weight wool hiking sock.

In the Abyss boots in sz 8, with the first two liners (I've never added the 3rd/extra liner) and my 3 layers of socks, I get a perfect fit.

So I'd say if in doubt, either call OTB, or go with the lower size - could be the other models are sized differently I guess, so calling them wouldn't hurt.


EDIT _ they have a sizing guide on thier website -- for water boots, they say if you are wear a half size, and that half size is on the big side for you, then buy the OTB boot in the smaller size;  if your half size boots are snug, than buy the OTB boot in the next larger size.

I ordered a size larger than I wear in a hiking boot and they still were none too big.

At $70, sounds like a decent buy.  Is there much difference performance wise between the ABYSS and ODHIN except for the extra 2 inches in height of the ODHIN?  Or is it more personal preference?

Odhin is not just a taller abyss. The only thing they share is the sole design. Check the photos.

Just window shopping but ... as someone who always keeps one eye out for a better way I enjoyed the "Sims" (larger image>waterflow) as it seems a step forward but still think that for portaging purposes honest to god drain holes that kept out sand if not mud would be nice.

I really hate Flash but the SAR type had laces that made sense plus looked liked like they'd fit best under a seat. The common footbed "sim" was interesting as well. Personally I like to get a feel for what I'm stepping on so I take the one from the different brand of boot I own out plus it fits better when wearing GT socks. They are useful though as that's what lets the water drain out as designed.

And FWIW - I'd expect the fit to be intended towards the tight side. I sometimes have to remind myself to lace mine up (different brand remember) for the more interesting portages.

jdrocks wrote on Jan 14^th, 2010 at 11:11pm:

the ORB is the deluxe model, tough to find though.

Truly a legendary boot, almost achieving mythical status!  ;D  If you find a pair that fit, BUY THEM!!!

Jimbo   8-)

A really good deal.  I got the Abyss boots last year and was very pleased with them.  I normally wear size 11.5 and per the site if you are in the half size I should go down to 11.  I really hate tight boots, so I ordered the 12.  I just used medium hiker smartwool socks instead of light hikers.  I also used only one of the two inserts for the boots to get the fit I liked.  

As for the boots, they were the best I have used yet.  I can hardly tell that they were worn (after one 9 day trip) and they seemed to get good traction.  They were lightweight and drained and dried fast.  My only concern at all would be from some on here that said they broke down after x days of use.  Mine only have 9 days of hard Quetico use, so I guess only time will tell on that.   My guess is for all those people that like the Chota Quetioc Trekkers, these would be a step up.  I never really like the fit of those.  

I am half tempted to order another pair of these, maybe the Ohdin, just to have as a backup?  My wife would probably kill me though as I have about 5 other pairs of portage boots that did not make the cut.  I am always looking for the perfect boot, and this is the best I have found yet.  

Does anyone have an opinion on Ohdin vs Abyss?  My assumption last year when I purchased was that Ohdin was just a two inch taller version.  JD states otherwise.

Maverick,

I've got the same question as you.  JD is right in that they do have a different pattern, but I've got to believe they have the same draining/drying capabilities.  I've only used portage boots int he past that are similar in height to the Abyss, so I'm curious if 2 inches increased height is good or bad or the same.  Have you used different height boots and if so which did you like better?

 

Noticed a few under the heading of 'canyoning shoes', none that struck me yet. Most look like trail running or gym shoes.   (You need to Login or Register footwear>water.

This one   (You need to Login or Register seems similar to the older patagonia shoes. A little lighter then what I like for camping and portaging but cheap!

one more time...the odhin is not just a taller abyss. they are different boots that share the same perforated sole, but almost nothing else. we had a new pair of each on our recent 21 day trip and i was surprised to see how different they were. neither model held up real well, and i returned my pair for a refund.

i would not buy another pair at retail but did buy another pair at $70. the credit card receipt does not indicate that they charged shipping, a pleasant surprise, if true.

if your travels include a lot of lining/tracking, more rugged portages, or if you just feel you need more ankle support, get the odhin. if not, the abyss will do.

i do not view the otb boot as a cold water boot. you may feel the need for a neoprene sock early or late in the season. if so, buy the correct size.

BrownTrout01 wrote on Jan 18^th, 2010 at 2:05am:

... the older patagonia shoes. A little lighter then what I like for camping and portaging but cheap!

I don't see much point to anything higher than shielding your ankles. GT socks can define usable depth for shoulder seasons, IMO. Sorry for beating a dead horse but the play boots did have a reasonably solid outer structure. They were not just neoprene. They had padding , a nylon outer that provided a structure and extra reinforcement at certain normal type wear points, just not enough durability at the right ones and I sewed up some mfg errors last year myself.

The soles lasted a lot longer than the usual thick vibram treads BW/Q rocks seem to eat for breakfast. It's the sides that were/are the weak link on mine. That's why I asked earlier about what failed on the storms. I could take a pic but since they don't make 'em any more it would just be for comparison's sake and I assume they don't make 'em any more for a reason.

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The problem with wet footing it, overlooking the obvious comfort factor, is that once your feet get wet and stay wet the skin gets soft. That leads to blisters. Been there, done that on my first trip with teva "water shoes". Whatever boot/shoe you choose be sure to take a tip from backpackers and use 2 pair socks. One should be a thin liner style sock. The socks will rub against each other instead of your skin helping to prevent blisters. As a former backpacker I speak from experience.

Quote:

The problem with wet footing it, overlooking the obvious comfort factor, is that once your feet get wet and stay wet the skin gets soft. That leads to blisters.

I think this has way more to do with fit than anything else.

I wet foot many days a year wading for trout and smallies, in the same boots I use for wet-footed canoeing (the 1.0 version of the patagonia marlwalkers). I wear a single pair of coolmax or thermax socks.   Never had a blister.

OTB has reduced the price of their boots again via their online catalog. now less than 50% retail.

in green.

Well based off of everything I read here I went w/ the green abyss boots. I too was in need of a portage boot for the upcoming season. I started looking @ the Chota Quetico Trekkers, but wasn't crazy about the soles. Then the comments on the OTB Abyss boots popped up and I liked what I saw. Mine were $54 w/ shipping in Green.  This thread was the perfect timing for me, so thanks everyone! :)

Wow, I didn't think it was that long ago we had this discussion... Just got back from a ten day solo. It was supposed to be twelve days but things didn't go all to well in the boot selection. I was down at Midwest Mountaineerings Expo in April and picked up Chota's revision of the Quetico Trekkers. I wore them everywhere to get them broke in and thought I did a pretty good job. I started out with a 30 rod portage and then a 60 rod... was doing okay. Then after a short eight rod I did a 216 rod portage. My feet were wet pretty much after the 60 rod portage. I ended up with big blisters in the front next to the balls of my feet right in the middle. ///after an other short portage I camped for the night. I thought I would the next day just get a 280 rod portage behind me and on that portage the blister on my left foot broke open... Well, making a long story not so much longer... I fought the problem through out the trip, even changing the course to do less portaging. Did I not break them in enough or is it the boot? It seems there is a lot of slop room around the front of my feet. I'm not happy about this. Do I try them out again to see if they are finally broke in or do I scrap em and get something more trustworthy. I didn't notice til later they are made in China  :P. They did dry fast and had okay traction. Ten days later and I'm still in a bit of pain, course I never did rest my feet that much. I'd looked forward to that trip a long time.

You have brought up my wet boot fears again. My first boundary waters trip I went wet boot/shoe and my feet got soft from all the water and bingo, blister city. I cut that one short too. Did you wear a liner sock in addition to the hiking sock?

Wow I am glad that my dogs serve me well. Maybe they're just always used. Food and feet. For years I have "wet booted" running Redwing Irishsetters then various Irishsetter models( had to simple due to the fact that once the japanese fad fell on redwing I could not afford to due it any longer). They are always run with a good quality merino wool sock and a footbed. On occasion I due get minor blisters on the tops of my toes but only when the boot is wore out and stretched out and I am on a route with many ups and downs carrying profound weight. These are the boots that I wear everyday for work, and a average day for me is 10-12 miles shlepping the whole way-mmmmm a typical day in the crown or BW ::)

I completely understand fit is paramount in foot ware; foot beds IMO can assist with that endeavor and are much more affordable than custom foot ware. I also ditch liner socks years ago because for me they simply caused more issues rather than doing what they are suppose to do...abraded blisters.

Last year I moved with great apprehension to a pair of Chotas(gore topped boots/model?) for a late season trip. No bisters due to the fact that I socked up the boot-one smartwool sock and one heavy weight filson with a boot bed to stiffen the sole and  velcro strap around the ankle to keep the heel in the heal cup of the boot; because that is what my feet are use to. Yes, the footing was different but it is a different boot. But I was warm and that was the goal-warm.... not dry and warm. One of the byproducts of that switch up was lightening the mass on the foot, which was quite noticeable, even enjoyable,  and belayed the stink factor :o

Knowing your foot ware and its limitations IMO are key-the gal that the boy and I came across last year on Alpine with a broken leg speaks loud and clear to that. IMO that can only be explored through trial and error to find the "system" that works for you-the individual-and then pushing the system in the circuit that is a mirror of the activity that is its application. Simply, if the hide is thin blisters will happen, if the boot dont fit dont wear it until it does, and slippage is about the soul/sole ;)

The last thing is about Lasts...the "mold" that the foot ware is made on. Their are differences between american and european lasted boots. American style is wider....european is narrower in the heal cup and the like. This has me thinkin' about the pictures of the Borneo guides and their out of scale naked dogs that a employer showed me after he returned from a trip in search of P. rothschildianum in its native haunts.....support! it aint a loose term ;)
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Yo Marlin,
Sounds like the footbed suggestion could be a winner for Ben. Especially since it sounds like he has room to spare.

I question your ditching the liner sock however. I can't imagine a liner sock causing any issues whatsoever. In fact I can't imagine myself on a trip without them. Perhaps we have differing understandings on exactly what a liner sock is. Then again probably not but I will post a link to those that have never heard of this simple but very commonly accepted remedy to preventing blisters.
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I like the thin polypro versions which fit snugly. They dry very quickly. The concept of course is the 2 pair of socks rub against each other instead of your skin. Works for me.  [smiley=thumbup.gif]  

Ha! If you read the reviews of the link I posted above I suggest you avoid that particular brand. I thought they were a bit on the cheap side. The ones I have have seen at least 150 miles (Wonderland Trail alone is 93+) of some pretty tough stuff and still look fine. Of course that is split between 3 pair. Rather fuzzy math eh?

Thanks Mastertangler and Marlin for your input. I'm going to try some things as suggested. I'll try them on shorter trips as the problem occured the first day of my trip. I have to get this under control before my WCPP trip in July. Darn, now I have to take another trip or two.

I used to use polypro for liner socks. I now use Coolmax liners, much better IMO.

Ben,
A few final thoughts, have you considered dry footing it? I really like the Chota Muklucks. The tread is not that aggressive so if your not sure footed you might consider something else. Prouboy was looking into a "grippy" rubber sole addition to his Mukluks. Pretty hi-tech, the material was something like the teva spider sole water shoes ( I think that was the name :question........impressive traction indeed....I have a pair).

After my first wet boot experience I have yet to "wet boot" it again. My feet got soft wetfooting it and bingo, I was done.....1st day. Since then I've used the Chota Mucklucks with a liner sock and hiking sock in combination. Even though I still mange to get a soaker now and again no more blisters. Very comfy, even in the boat.

Lastly, I always carry moleskin in my first aid kit. Not sure how it would do in a wet boot environment though.  

Well, dry footing it would have been a little bit impossible on my last trip. The landings weren't to good, I'm not sure how high the Mukluks are. But one portage I had was knee deep in water for about 75 yards. (Hustler to Oyster... 310 rods). Aren't the Mukluks kind of warm to wear during warm weather? The sock liner makes sense and so does the insoles... Or maybe a different pair of boots... Wonder what Denton Doc or Jimbo might say about the possibility of dry footing it in WCPP? I also had to wet foot it on Ge be on a quet Creek... Or as I named it Gee Ben ought to quit creek... as it was too shallow, lots of rocks.

The Mukluks come to just below the knee. I don't find them hot at all, not even a little.

Try the liner socks, get your boots and a pack full of rocks, get em soaked and go for a mile hike. You have to have confidence you have a solution. The unintended consequences of blisters may put you into an undesirable position. The thing that would be hard to replicate however is constant wetness. That softens the meat up.

I like the Mukluks because I can get a good "feel" for the terrain underfoot. Sort of like a moccasin. I will more than likely always run them unless I get into REALLY long, rocky portages with steepness involved (Isle Royale). Add some precipitation and that could spell trouble for a boot that lacks aggressive tread and ankle support. For the "Q" though I find them perfect.

MT

Yes I know what a liner sock is...the silk and polypro pairs are still in the drawer from 20 + years ago. Since I more frequency suffer from CRS now I do occasionally take them out and try them again only to remind myself why I put them there in the first place ( note: figure of speech), but I cant remember the last time I did that.

Whatever floats your boat...you know. For me they cause more problems in my method of madness...I am blessed with dogs that are kind to me ::)

Bisters are not about socks but a poor fitting boot/shoe, or just a poor boot/shoe; could be poor from the start or plan wore out. If one stops to think about it a bit boots and shoes are cookie cutter by manufacturing nature and feet are not. Focus on the fit, IMHO. Wear wool, merino doesnt itch. Even double sock, add foot beds, and get fitted properly. Blisters are about friction not wet skin. YOur feet will be saying OOLaLA mon cheri ;)

Marlin,
What is CRS?

Ben Franklin once said that you can have your opinion or your friends, you can't have both. Here is a link that seems to suggest both views are correct. (there was also some emphasis on staying dry, however, with some of the other articles).
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[quote author=mastertangler link=1173671225/140#142 date=1275309771

Ben Franklin once said that you can have your opinion or your friends, you can't have both.    [/quote]

This quote was meant to apply to ME, period. While I personally don't think I am opinionated (holding to an opinion regardless of the facts) I am a person of, shall we say, firm convictions. Add to the mix not being especially shy and there is a recipe for "rubbing" some folk the wrong way. (How's that for being on topic!). Hence I try and keep the Franklin quote in my back pocket. Anyway, I had to clarify that lest poor, pitiful me be mis-understood.

I wear a liner sock in my Brookie Knee Highs with whatever Teva water shoe I can find at a discount ;)

I agree with OS, I think Cool-max is superior to Polypro.
I also bring a pair of Merino wool dress socks if the water is real cold for my liner sock.

The fit of your shoe is paramount for comfort and stability. I'd rather have a looser fit, and build if up with aftermarket insoles, than a tight fit that pinches and cuts circulation. Your feet swell as much as 1 whole size in a day. The also get bigger as you age and gravity takes it's toll.
I wore a size 9 1/2 D in the Army, now wear a size 10 1/2 E.

If your still having hot spot no matter what you do, here's a little tip most dedicated runners know ( I'm not one of them). Use a clear sports deodorant or special runners "lube", and run it over the area your having problems with. I use it on heels/balls feet and around the toe area. Then put on liner sock and go from there.
It will cut the friction/ perspiration and foot odor way down. You have too like that ;D

Old Salt wrote on May 30^th, 2010 at 10:06pm:

I used to use polypro for liner socks. I now use Coolmax liners, much better IMO.

I am always interested in learning from others. Both you and S_T like the Coolmax liners instead of polypro. I will check them out but am interested why you prefer the Coolmax?

mastertangler wrote on May 31^st, 2010 at 12:42pm:

Marlin, What is CRS?

I hope you enjoyed your laugh. Here I am uneasy for you thinking you have some chronic syndrome from all the chemicals you work with so I google CRS. Well I couldn't figure out what Catholic Relief Services would have to do with your inability to wear liner socks...............Oh,, "Can't Remember Stuff" (the polite version) is probably the correct translation........ Truth be told I don't get 90% of the acronyms used. I'm not even 50 yet and I'm so not hip already  :-/

 I like Cool-max over Polypro, because too me, if feels more like a cotton sock, than a synthetic, which they both are.

Other's might not see much of a difference.

 

I agree w/ ST on this one. The Coolmax also seems to absorb/reduce  friction better. Try it and see for yourself.

Ben,
The thing about wetfooting, is once your socks get wet, you lose a lot of the cushion/thickness, and your feet can easily slide around in boots that aren't a close fit.  I always wear a liner, a mid-weight wool, and heavy wool hiking sock, and select those to fit very snugly when put on dry - if needed, I'll add a fourth pair of old, streched out hiking socks over the top to keep the fit snug.

I wonder if some of your problem came from the bungee cord laces not stayiing tight enough - i.e. they stretched while walking ?

I hated those on my quetico trekkers, and replaced with parachute cord.

Another thing I do on some boots, to keep the slack in the laces from migrating, is to use the first 4 or 5 sets of eyelets, and tie off there with a square knot, then finish lacing and tie off at the top.  Seems to me that without doing that, the slack tends to migrate to the bottom, around your foot, while the top of the boot gets tighter around the ankle.

other than the blisters, did you have any durability issues with the
Q. T.s -
last thing I've seen on those - oh maybe within the last few months, was some blog where the paddler had to use cable ties, thru slits cut into the toe box, to keep the sole from peeling off - that was after about three days of use or so with a brand new pair.

I have to say that my quetico trekkers have made it through two trips just fine, and will be going on a third in a few weeks. I've been happy with them. Not 100% sure I'd buy another pair (not sure I'm ever completely satisfied with ANY of my gear  :)), but they've worked well enough for me. But I'm not a wetfooter, either, so that may make a difference. I will also say that the deal they had at the 'Copia a few years ago made them much more attractive to me. Not sure I can say they'd be worth the Chota "list" price.

[quote author=Mad_Mat link=1173671225/140#149 date=1275482848

...other than the blisters, did you have any durability issues with the
Q. T.s -last thing I've seen on those - oh maybe within the last few months, was some blog where the paddler had to use cable ties, thru slits cut into the toe box, to keep the sole from peeling off - that was after about three days of use or so with a brand new pair.[/quote]

No, they seemed to hold up well, dry out fast and best of all never smelled to bad. I have a pair of Thinsulate boots that smell things up every time I tried them... I did a 216, 280 and a 310 rod portage within the first few days and all ended up with wet feet at some point. Then after a few other portages I shot out to Lac La Croix and avoided most portages because of my feet. The worst I had left was the 160 rod through Devels Cascade on Little Indian Souix. That one has a nasty hill to climb when going south...
I'm going to try some cool max liners and possibly an insert and see what happens. I might try your tie ing trick to keep the lower part tighter. Some great responses... Thanks all.

I may be off base (certainly not the first time) and I dislike the idea of quibbling with the likes of Old Salt, Mad Mat and Solotripper (especially since I very well may not know what I'm talking about)...... now how's that for a disclaimer!  :D

I took a casual peek via photo at the coolmax socks. They honestly don't strike me as a true liner sock. They don't seem thin enough. The idea with a liner of course being a thin very "grippy" type of sock that just plain won't move about. I would have to see what the backpacking community had to say. Probably going to stay with my polypro, they have served me well.

Look before you leap.........
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Nice reviews.

MT,

Feel free too "quibble" all you want ;)
I would never expect people too ditch an old stand-by without some diligent research and a skeptical eye.

Everyone's feet are different, size/gait/ sweat. Factor in shoe types and you can see that everyone's experience might not be the same.

I'd say buy 1 pair, then maybe wear your old stand -by on one foot, the newer one on the other. Go for a nice hike with a moderately heavy pack. A side by side comparison should do the trick ;)

I doubt you'll regret spending the $5, best case scenario you've found a better way, worse case you have a a good but not better extra pair of liner socks  ;D

Maybe I should try both kinds and like you say... Try one of each, the joys of having two feet, and see which work the best. They might have different applications in different weather and the like. I respect everyones opinion and there was a good amount of thumbs up for the cool max. I also respect Mastertanglers opinion to try the other. What do I have to loose?

Other than a few bucks, you really have nothing too lose and much to gain. Nothing is worse than having sore feet for whatever reason.

Sore feet lead to all kinds of injuries as you/your body, compensates in hope of lessing the discomfort/pain.

Works its way north, ankles/knees, then hips and lower back.
Good supportive/comfortable shoes are a must whether you dry or wet foot. Blisters are the enemy of both styles.

mastertangler wrote on May 31^st, 2010 at 12:42pm:

Marlin, What is CRS? Ben Franklin once said that you can have your opinion or your friends, you can't have both. Here is a link that seems to suggest both views are correct. (there was also some emphasis on staying dry, however, with some of the other articles).   (You need to Login or Register

CANT REMEMBER S*#T! :-?

mastertangler wrote on May 31^st, 2010 at 9:08pm:

mastertangler wrote on May 31st, 2010 at 12:42pm: Marlin, What is CRS?   I hope you enjoyed your laugh. Here I am uneasy for you thinking you have some chronic syndrome from all the chemicals you work with so I google CRS. Well I couldn't figure out what Catholic Relief Services would have to do with your inability to wear liner socks...............Oh,, "Can't Remember Stuff" (the polite version) is probably the correct translation........ Truth be told I don't get 90% of the acronyms used. I'm not even 50 yet and I'm so not hip already  :-/

I think I already answered this......BTW I like cool max socks too.

In fact, coolmax comes in different colors, tho white is the most common. I like them so well, that I wear them year 'round. They make great dress socks as well as bummin 'round socks. I just add a wool blend in winter.

Ok, you got me. I'm not going in to look at cool-max socks I'm going in to purchase. Seems like with the average temp in my shop hitting 90 by say 10 A.M. something with the name "cool" and "max" would get my attention. Thanks for the additional posts, sometimes I need to get hit upside the head with a 2x4 before I get it!

Go to   (You need to Login or Register then "Tactical Water" (there are previous reviews on these boots on this site).  OTB = Over The Beach, inpired by boots designed for Navy Seals.  They have 3 levels of footbed than can be mixed/matched to help fit.  I normally wear a 12 and the 12 fits perfect - be sure to read their sizing guide.

Definately  [smiley=thumbup.gif] [smiley=thumbup.gif] from me.

Just returned from near the BWCA with scouts on BWCA shakedown trip - 1 adult and 3 boys have the SAR ($39), I have the Odhin ($59) - we were all very, very impressed w/ the performance of both models.

I initially tried the new Seal Skinz ($45) that are supposed to be completely waterproof - they were very comfortable, and I was pleased until my 1st trip into the water - I could feel the water running down my leg to my feet.  My feet stayed wet all day as socks wouldn't get rid of that much water even though we were in camp 6-7 hours before I took them off - bad prune feet that night.  The socks are going back to REI.  

Next day, wore liners and smart wools, soaked them on a portage and after a 15-30 min out of the water, feet "felt" dry even though smartwools were still wet.  The mesh panels and soles with holes drain water instantly and then the socks took over moving the moisture away from the feet.  If it is breezy, you can feel the wind through the mesh - wicking the moisture away.  No prune feet at night and incredibly comfortable boots with good support.  The padding on the inside doesn't soak up water, so they don't feel heavy when wet.  So comfortable, I probably won't take camp shoes on our July trip.  Traction was excellent except on moss covered rocks where nothing sticks.  Absolutely no sand, stones, gravel, etc under my foot like always  happens w/ my Merrell Saugatuck sandals.

They are on sale, the SAR style is not quite as supportive as the Odhin (they also have an Abyss $49 - green), but worked very well per the 3 boys and one adult who wore them.  Green is being phased out and thus the reduced price over the black ones, otherwise, they are the same.

For the price and value, these are a steal - get them before they are gone!

Used the OTB Abyss (green) for the first time last June.  8 days.  They worked great.  I wear size 10 shoes and purchased size 10 booits.  They were comfortable enough wearing coolmax liner with smartwool crew and all the inserts.  No blisters or crinkled foot problems (Gold Bond each evening worked well).  They were especially nice on the portages...sturdy and gripped well, and no longer did I worry about dodging ankle/shin deep mud...just plodded right through.  As with any boot, there were some slippage on wet rocks/granite slabs.  A coiuple days, I also tried the 11-inch Cabela's gore tex socks with the coolmax liner, smartwool sock, and one less insert.  The only reason my socks got wet was due to sweat...it was noticably warmer with the gore tex.  For dry-footers, this is an option as long as you don't go over shin-deep water/mud.

The boots were generally dry by the next morning provided a few hours of sun was available.  The interesting thing was you could really feel the coolness when wearing them in the water...felt good after a tough portage.

Definitely recommend the Abyss boots, and will follow up again after my lengthly solo starting next week.

Well, I had my brother in law pick me up sock liners on his way up from the cities earlier this year. The sales man at REI sold him the pair Mastertangler suggested even though I asked for the Cool Max. And he'd only sell one pair saying that's all I'd need. I used them on my recent 10 day in the WCPP and had no foot issues. Several times I got to camp with wet feet and was in no hurry to change into dry footwear. So I'm sold on the liner thing. The portages were not as long as my BW trip in May, but boot sucking mud and other challenges were the norm in WCPP. I hope to get out one more time to test them on the longer portages, but I'm trying to save for my Oct trip to the Phillipines. So we'll see. Thanks all for the input... How are these other boots like the OTC's and such holding up to multiple trips? My Chota's are showing wear, but still okay I think for another gruelling trip.

nctry_Ben wrote on Aug 4^th, 2010 at 5:34pm:

Well, I had my brother in law pick me up sock liners on his way up from the cities earlier this year. The sales man at REI sold him the pair Mastertangler suggested even though I asked for the Cool Max. And he'd only sell one pair saying that's all I'd need. I used them on my recent 10 day in the WCPP and had no foot issues. Several times I got to camp with wet feet and was in no hurry to change into dry footwear. So I'm sold on the liner thing. <snip> How are these other boots like the OTC's and such holding up to multiple trips? My Chota's are showing wear, but still okay I think for another gruelling trip.

In my opinion, sock liners are an absolute must if you are walking for extended periods under load in the woods.  I've been using them for at least 25 years.  I still prefer CoolMax for backpacking, but I'm more inclined to go with a SmartWool liner for canoeing.  Oh, BTW:  I do take multiple pairs of liners AND socks on my trips.

I used my OTB Ohdin's (high top variation of the Abyss) on my 10-day WCPP trip.  They worked great ... even in boot sucking mud up to my hip.  But you will need to either double knot or use the lace stuffer pouch to keep them tied ... and they drain EXCEPTIONALLY well.  They will be my likely choice for an upcoming 2-week Quetico trip.

dd

I'll echo what dd says, both about this specific boot AND the liner.

They DO drain exceptionally well.  You WILL need to double-knot the laces; they will come apart on you otherwise.  During our 12 day WCP trip, even my double-knots started coming apart.  I strongly suspect this is exactly what caused the significant problem I experienced.

With or without a liner, you always want to be certain your foot is not slip-sliding around inside of the boot.  My liners started feeling pretty greasy inside of my boots during rough bushwhack on Day 3 when we were climbing cliffs and then descending into swamps.  The end result is that I ended up with some of the worst blood blisters of my life & lost 3  toenails.  I'm not exactly sure why they started feeling so greasy & slippery inside of the boots; could be the liners simply didn't match up well with the wool socks I was wearing.  They did OK on Day 1 and Day 2.  Maybe I should have changed them out before Day 3?  It could be that those boots simply aren't meant for the kind of climbing we were doing that day.  More likely, however, it was that the laces kept coming undone, thus allowing too much wiggling of feet inside of the boots.

Don't get me wrong; I DO like the boots.  They drain nice & provide good support.  I may have to try some other laces on them, however.  Those that come with the boots simply will not stay tied!

Jimbo   8-)  

I ran into this item which I use on my outdoor cross training shoes.
I've since switched out ALL my boots for them.
Maybe they'll work for you.
Eliminating tying multiple knots, hanging trip prone knots, and ease of taking off/putting on, make them worth a shot in my book.

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That link didn't work for me ST.  Brought me to the website but did not show whatever product you were talking about.

SnowDog -

I think he was going for this:

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Jimbo   8-)

So ST, I need you to explain how to make those things work.  I went out and got some because it seems like a brilliant idea.  I'm using them with OTB Abyss boots so there needs to be slack available to pull them on and off.  Okay so I slip my laces through the cordlock doohickey and tie the laces off together with enough lace on the other side to provide slack to get the boots on and off, so that's about 5" or so.  Okay so now I have my boots on and tighten down the cord lock and have 5" of lace above it to hang down on the ground.  What am I missing here?  I feel like I'm failing the world's simplest intelligence test (you know, the ones monkeys can do in about 8 minutes.)   Please advise.

Sorry about the link not working :-[
I don't understand why that happens. I cut and paste out of the pages properties. Then close the site and paste into my reply. It always comes up when I preview before posting, but doesn't always work for others? I don't know why that happens.

Anyway, to answer Kerry's question, Yes, you need the slack to pull on and off. I don't tie the laces off at all. I end up with two single lengths of lace. You can tuck these into tongue area around upper laces, like in the picture of the combat boot, or just let hang free. I have them on my low cut workout/ water shoes and the hanging length, doesn't hit the ground, it just kind of " floats" there.
Eliminating any loops or knots keeps you from snagging on branches/rocks and roots causing the embarrassing falls we've all probably had one time or the other ;)

I take a lighter and melt the end of laces, so they don't fray. I also tie a small overhand knot in the end of the tag end and snug tight. This is so you don't pull the lace thru the lace-lock when removing the shoe. Hard to do, but believe me, possible  ;D

PS, I just took a ruler and checked the tag length after snugging up my low cut water shoes. I have 4" of slack. Even with 5", the laces wouldn't hit the ground or get under foot. I don't know how you lace your shoes, but from my viewpoint, I'm not seeing how that 5", is a problem?
Maybe post a pic of laced shoe and I can give you a better answer?

Snow_Dog wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 9:42pm:

That link didn't work for me ST.  Brought me to the website but did not show whatever product you were talking about.

I just clicked on my original post's link, and the link came right up for me.

One of QJ's computer literate can tell me why it works for me, but not others :question

The link for this product?
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No problem for me.

I've all sorts of those stripped from otherwise busted gear, jackets, bags.  The bag may have a hole, but it has a perfectly servicable drawstring & cordlock.

It could be the person viewing doesn't have the right plug-in installed.  IE7 or higher, if you're on IE6 or worse then you should upgrade anyway.  Maybe also local security settings?  Maybe if someone is set high or worse that part is stripped?

Thanks ST.  I think my problem is that I was tying off the two ends together and that left too much lace hanging.  Your way ought to work just fine and I'll give it a try.  By the way, you can get those cord locks at MEC for 30 cents each although I guess we all have a ton of them lying around from disposed bags that developed holes.

Preacher wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 5:55pm:

It could be the person viewing doesn't have the right plug-in installed.  IE7 or higher, if you're on IE6 or worse then you should upgrade anyway.  Maybe also local security settings?  Maybe if someone is set high or worse that part is stripped?

I'd say it was more likely server maintenance.  The link was dead for about 10 hours then came back to life.

dd

Kerry wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 6:16pm:

Thanks ST.  I think my problem is that I was tying off the two ends together and that left too much lace hanging.  Your way ought to work just fine and I'll give it a try.  By the way, you can get those cord locks at MEC for 30 cents each although I guess we all have a ton of them lying around from disposed bags that developed holes.

I tried this method a few years back before someone stole my idea ;D
I found the spring in a gear bag wasn't strong enough to hold a shoe like a laced knot. Not saying some wouldn't work, but the ones I had failed under pressure.

The ones I linked you too, have a very strong spring, and a two-stage lock. When you press them slowly, they open up allowing movement. A quick press, and they click-lock into place, locking them very securely.

I'm sure that's why there so much more expensive than the standard ones. If anyone can get old gear one's to work satisfactorily, then your ahead of the game.

In any case the concept works really well and is worth a look, if your tired of laces coming untied at the worst moments :'(

Thanks for tech info. I'll try and remember to post my links like Jimbo did, so everyone can see them.

I'll tuck long ends into the criss-cross going up the tongue.  Also, when doing a double knot collect the free ends and tie them double as well.

Nope.  The link still doesn't work for me.  I get the company's website, but no product appears.  Not sure what version of IE I'm on, but this computer's less than a year old so it can't be too ancient.

Jimbo's link worked, though.

They're spring toggles you find on pretty much any non-waterproof stuffsack.  Any reputable camping supply store should have a bulk bin full of them if they have bulk bins at all.

Preacher wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 5:17pm:

They're spring toggles you find on pretty much any non-waterproof stuffsack.  Any reputable camping supply store should have a bulk bin full of them if they have bulk bins at all.

They're not really.  I picked up some of the ones they have at MEC (and they do have a bulk bin) and they're pretty cheap and in fact won't really hold the laces without slippage.  I tried them out and I don't have confidence that they'll work.   I think the ones ST is talking about, at least according to his description, are better quality that will properly bite down and do the job.  My problem is how do you order something worth $2.50 when shipping is $20.

Kerry wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 8:37pm:

Preacher wrote on Aug 10th, 2010 at 5:17pm: They're spring toggles you find on pretty much any non-waterproof stuff sack.  Any reputable camping supply store should have a bulk bin full of them if they have bulk bins at all. They're not really.  I picked up some of the ones they have at MEC (and they do have a bulk bin) and they're pretty cheap and in fact won't really hold the laces without slippage.  I tried them out and I don't have confidence that they'll work.   I think the ones ST is talking about, at least according to his description, are better quality that will properly bite down and do the job.  My problem is how do you order something worth $2.50 when shipping is $20.

The Fastex ones I referenced are military spec, proven in combat conditions, where you don't need your boot coming loose at the wrong time. They're made of a tough resin type plastic, that won't break under pressure. When I tried the old stuff bag toggles before discovering these, I had to tie a knot to secure the toggle in place, which defeated the whole toggle idea. IF you get a few pair, you'll see they're nothing like stuff sack toggles. More like stuff sack toggles on steroids ;D

I understand the shipping dilemma ;D But I'm sure if you peruse the site, you could find another item that might make the deal more palatable for you :question

They have some great stuff, most proven in the real world conditions.
You might try a good running store :-/  I know they have similar items, but not sure they have that one.

You could also Google Fastex Cordloc Boot Laces, and then run thru a web shopper. Maybe you could find a better price, or shipping rate?

Kerry wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 8:37pm:

My problem is how do you order something worth $2.50 when shipping is $20.

I just ordered 20 of them from Mil-Spec Monkey.  That makes the unit price $0.45, but you can buy a single for $.65.

Shipping via USPS was $2.00

BTW:  Why did I buy so many ... Hey, not only am I going to add them to my boot laces, I'm going to give them a try as quick line tensioners for my tent and tarp.  (I'll report back on whether or not this is a good use for them).

dd

I suspect they aren't good for guy-lines.  In big wind, when you need them most, is when they'll fail.  Nothing's better than a short line & a good knot.

DentonDoc wrote on Aug 18^th, 2010 at 5:26pm:

Kerry wrote on Aug 10th, 2010 at 8:37pm: My problem is how do you order something worth $2.50 when shipping is $20. I just ordered 20 of them from Mil-Spec Monkey.  That makes the unit price $0.45, but you can buy a single for $.65. Shipping via USPS was $2.00 BTW:  Why did I buy so many ... Hey, not only am I going to add them to my boot laces, I'm going to give them a try as quick line tensioners for my tent and tarp.  (I'll report back on whether or not this is a good use for them). dd

dd, be sure to give a report on whether they worked as boot laces. They look just like the ones I bought , but I believe the plastic might be different :-/
Mine hold fast without any knots behind the cord-lock. If yours don't, then they're not the same. I hope they are, because the price you paid can't be beat. I understand there's always a retail price difference, but Brigade Quarter Masters is on the of the largest outfits of its type. I can't believe they'd mark their version up so much, but you never know.

Just a thought on the guy line tensioner idea. I've tried different ways over they years. I had the tensioner's that are slightly curved with a hole on each end. Worked well, except for one big weakness. Unless you wound up each guy-line before stuffing tarp/tent fly in bag, I always ended up with a tangled mess when I pulled it out.

I don't like to take the time to fold or roll fly, I just stuff it in bag. I've found that rather than using guy-line devices, a quick truckers hitch was the way too go. Works around any anchoring object, gives you a little mechanical advantage, and is easily adjusted.

I just want to say that I used OTB Abyss boots for the first time on my recent 3 week excursion into the Q in August.  They were absolutely the best.  Great drainage, dried relatively quickly and the traction seemed just fine.  They also seem to holding up well and the fit and comfort very good.  So five stars from me on these.

solotripper wrote on Aug 18^th, 2010 at 7:07pm:

DentonDoc wrote on Aug 18th, 2010 at 5:26pm: Kerry wrote on Aug 10th, 2010 at 8:37pm: My problem is how do you order something worth $2.50 when shipping is $20. I just ordered 20 of them from Mil-Spec Monkey.  That makes the unit price $0.45, but you can buy a single for $.65. Shipping via USPS was $2.00 BTW:  Why did I buy so many ... Hey, not only am I going to add them to my boot laces, I'm going to give them a try as quick line tensioners for my tent and tarp.  (I'll report back on whether or not this is a good use for them). dd dd, be sure to give a report on whether they worked as boot laces. They look just like the ones I bought , but I believe the plastic might be different :-/

I used the the product on my September canoe trip.  I did some longish portages, a few serious bog walks and a couple of plunges in to waist deep swamp.  Over the two weeks of use, the boot laces remained continually snug.  On a previous trip with the same boots, single knots didn't generally last a day without becoming untied ... even double knots came loose once or twice.

I've also walked these tensioners on my hiking boots.  No tension failures to report in the first 200 miles of use.

EXCELLENT tip ST!  Thanks.

dd

I have just re-read this thread about the cord locks and put my rear in gear with procuring them especially after reading what happened to Jimbo. I too, am intending to run the OTB boots for the first time this summer.

I have always run the chota Mukluks but think they could get pulled off in a deep bog. Plus the traction is lacking.

Thanks DD for bringing this up again. And thanks ST for the tip.

Quote:

EXCELLENT tip ST!  Thanks.

After years of double tie-ing outdoor/workout footwear with the stand-by double knots that still came undone at the most inopportune times and still left lace loops that you could snag and fall with, these just made so much sense, I had to try them.

I tried the simple cord-locks but they didn't do the job, not sturdy enough and didn't have the bite. When I saw they were combat proven, I knew the idea was valid.

I'm glad you found a cheaper price.
I think anyone that tries them, will be impressed.

I missed it somehow. Got the cord locks from Brigade quarter masters and am not the least bit impressed. I got three packs and they all perform the same on the OTB boots which is to say they don't.


Maybe the laces are to thin and especially slick but they don't really grab them that well. Did I go with the wrong supplier?

I have the Brigade ones as well and they work fine.
I have the regular type round boot laces as well?
Are you double clicking them once you have them adjusted?
I had a problem at first because when I squeezed them open with one hand and adjusted the lace with the other, they came loose too.

I found that after you adjust, you need to make sure the little locking tab is visible? That might require a double click depending on how thick your laces are?

I just checked them on my Teva water shoes to make sure.
If you pull real hard they'll move, but it takes considerable effort.
If they can withstand the rigors of combat, they should hold up on a canoe trip I would think.

I'm thinking of ditching these laces on the OTB boots. The surface seems extra slick to me and I suspect they will come untied (as reported by several here on QJ).

I bet round laces would work well with the cord locks. New laces that don't come untied will probably negate their need however.

mastertangler wrote on Dec 13^th, 2010 at 7:18pm:

I missed it somehow. Got the cord locks from Brigade quarter masters and am not the least bit impressed. I got three packs and they all perform the same on the OTB boots which is to say they don't.

That was my initial impression.  However, I hadn't "unloaded" the spring.  Mine came with the springs under tension.  I had to mash the cord load "head" pretty hard on the first one before it came to life and worked properly.

I've used the cord locks on both flat (OTB) and round (Vasque) laces.  The locks seem to work perfectly well on either.

I'm off to do a 6 mile cord lock test (on my hiking boots).  I'll report back if I have any problems  ... of course I had no problems on the cord lock/laces for the first 200 miles, but who knows!   ;)

dd

Well I guess I need you college educated retired types to show me how it's done because as it stands right now (and I will use latin) they are suckee maximus.

I am pleasantly surprised with the bloucing garters you threw out. They work much better than I imagined. Extremely small light and compact. I got the elastic ones and I like them better than a velcro strap. I will probably just use them biking though since I'm going in with gaiters.

Suckee maximus  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

I think you'd be dutifully impressed when you get them working right.
The convenience thing is a nice feature, but the eliminating of lace loops was the major factor in my using them.

Sure you can tuck your laces in around the boot tongue. I did for years with my sport/work boots, but sooner or later they come untied or snag up on roots ending with you doing a face plant :-[

Your gaiter choice will keep your lace loops from being a potential problem, but if they have the elastic cord/ cord loop under your boot instep , then that's another possible snag and fall hazard on the right terrain :-?

Neil
I've monkeyed around with them for 10 minutes and even tried doubling them up. No dice. The OTB laces are flat, thin and slick. The locks just can't seem to get a bite. I understand why they come untied easily.

I know DD and I think Jimbo (I could be mistaken on the latter) are using them but I can give mine a tug and they slide up. I am thinking round laces that are shorter so I don't have any excess material flopping about. I bet that would be the ticket.  

Yeah, I have the OTB's.  I like the boots but encountered problems with the lacing when I needed problems the very least (heavy pack on back, swamp &/or slippery conditions underfoot).  One QJ'er (Neal?) put me on to these jewels: see   (You need to Login or Register .  They look like they would solve the problem.  I intend to pick up some before my next trip.

Jimbo   8-)

Yo Jimbo
That's exactly what I have. I will be interested to hear how you fare.

mastertangler wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 12:13am:

Neil I've monkeyed around with them for 10 minutes and even tried doubling them up. No dice. The OTB laces are flat, thin and slick. The locks just can't seem to get a bite. I understand why they come untied easily.

When you press the cord lock head down and release it (without a lace through the hole) is there any gap showing in the lace thread-thur hole?  The ones I have show no space at all.  This places the plastic "wedge" in the center of the "plunger" ABOVE the edge of the hole when closed.

BTW:  I didn't cut down my flat laces on the OTB boots, but I do stuff the ends under the elastic lace pouch at the top of the tongue.

dd

After the release all I see is the spring. Not exactly rocket science. I am puzzled though, here there are 2 people whose opinion has weight with me saying these are the trick.

Either the expectation level is different, the laces are different or these are the "new and improved version" (outsourced to China).

They worked acceptably well on round light hiking boot laces but I can't imagine heading into combat with these. Naturally the finest fighting force in the world will improvise with what they are given.

Well ... I DO tie a bow-tie knot on top of the cord-lock and then stuff the laces.  No slippage then and the knot stays tied.  

Before the cord-lock, even a double bow-tie knot came loose on the flat laces of the OTB's.

But, you need to go with what you have confidence in.  The LAST thing you want to worry about humping a load down the portage is whether or not your boot laces are tied.

dd

MT,

I'm at a loss for an explanation to your predicament :-/
dd, is right, you have to go with what you have confidence in.
I don't even tie a knot after the cord-lock.
The idea behind them is to eliminate loops and make for a quick/secure way to cinch on your combat boots if you are awakened in the night with hell raining down on you.

Once I got them working properly, I cut my laces just long enough so when I slide the cord to the end, I can get my shoe/boot on/off easily.
I did tie a overhand knot in the end of each lace, so I wouldn't accidentally pull the cord-lock off.

The free end of the laces once the cord-lock is secured, is about to the end of the boot toe. Nothing to snag/snarl.

I'm interested to see how Jimbo makes out with them?
dd's minor modification with the bow-tie knot is fine as it provides the security and peace of mind you want, but the product was designed to eliminate tie-ing knots period.

 Maybe with there being their mass produced, with the small size and design, it might be a production quality issue, not a design flaw?
I hate to think anyone spent money, no matter how little on a product I recommended and have it be crap, at least for them :-[

No sweat big daddy, they were not that expensive. I had hoped they would alleviate the need for tying as well. I think they would work as advertised on round laces that are not quite so thin and slick as the OTB boots. I too had hoped to be able to have short laces, nothing with potential to end up on the ground.

And I still might. I think I just have to find the right lace material. I like the idea of no loops. It is a rare day indeed when I take a spill but the less there is to snag up on the better.

DD might have the best solution to the problem with the OTB boot laces. Just tie a quick bow tie above the cord locks and tuck the excess into the top "pouch" area. I have tried it and that seems to work.

or try new laces that will fit cordlocks...

Or ditch the toggles and get a balanced knot ;)

Some thing for all here, even sorts out the short/broken lace sit-chi-ation :o

  (You need to Login or Register

[quote author=marlin55388 link=1173671225/200#204 date=1292627894]Or ditch the toggles and get a balanced knot ;)

Some thing for all here, even sorts out the short/broken lace sit-chi-ation :o

  (You need to Login or Register

Holy crap!!   :o  18 ways to tie my shoes??   :-?  And for the past several years, all I do is wet my laces, tie a double knot and it stays so tight I have trouble unknotting when I get to camp...who would have thunk it?   ;)

[quote author=marlin55388 link=1173671225/200#204 date=1292627894]   (You need to Login or Register
Bingo!
  (You need to Login or Register

So on those cordlocs, we're talking one per shoe as opposed to one per lace right?

I'm going to give this a try........sounds good for slippery laces.
  (You need to Login or Register

Thanks Marlin,  [smiley=dankk2.gif]

DB, My "subscription" is up in Feb. When I cut you a check I'll send along a set of cord locks for you to try. I have one unopened set, simple instructions on the package. [smiley=thumbup.gif]

quote  author=mastertangler link=1173671225/200#207 date=1292679386]

DB, My "subscription" is up in Feb. When I cut you a check I'll send along a set of cord locks for you to try. I have one unopened set, simple instructions on the package. [smiley=thumbup.gif][/quote]

Brownnoser!  

;D ;D ;D

I'm a team player ;).

;D ;D

Eighteen choices in shoe lace knots :P
I'm liking my Cord-locks more than ever now!

db, you'll have to give your field test results after you get your BrownNoser/team player gift from MT ;D


1

Go Team Go!!

For about the last week I have incorporated a daily 2 mile hike with my pack and bags into my workout regime. (Knee is doing fantastic but I digress)

Today I decided to run the OTB boots instead of my regular hiking boots. Might as well break them in a bit and see how they feel......... No break in required for me, they felt great. I am suspicious however, as to how they are going to hold up. I will probably bring some parachute cord just in case they fall apart.

It seems to me the cord locks are going to perform as ST advertised. The key being DD's admonition to tie a bow knot above them. They never came untied or loosened during todays hike. Usually I test something longer before proffering it in a positive light but today, along with DD's having run some 200 miles this way, is good enough for me.

You can omit the first step of crossing the laces BTW, this just makes them harder to untie. Just a simple bow or some other tie that is easily undone should suffice to keep the locks from creeping on the slick narrow laces of the OTB boots. [smiley=thumbup.gif]

I don't know about other's experiences with OTB boots but I got my first pair of Abyss this past summer and used them for 2 trips totally 30 days and they're still like new.  I never had a problem with laces coming untied.  I really can't imagine a better wet footing boot than these OTBs.

mastertangler wrote on Dec 25^th, 2010 at 9:40pm:

For about the last week I have incorporated a daily 2 mile hike with my pack and bags into my workout regime. (Knee is doing fantastic but I digress) Today I decided to run the OTB boots instead of my regular hiking boots. Might as well break them in a bit and see how they feel......... No break in required for me, they felt great. I am suspicious however, as to how they are going to hold up. I will probably bring some parachute cord just in case they fall apart. It seems to me the cord locks are going to perform as ST advertised. The key being DD's admonition to tie a bow knot above them. They never came untied or loosened during todays hike. Usually I test something longer before proffering it in a positive light but today, along with DD's having run some 200 miles this way, is good enough for me. You can omit the first step of crossing the laces BTW, this just makes them harder to untie. Just a simple bow or some other tie that is easily undone should suffice to keep the locks from creeping on the slick narrow laces of the OTB boots. [smiley=thumbup.gif]

I thought I would update my results with the cordlocks. Super. Even with the slippery thin surface of the OTB boots they have yet to come untied. The trick as per DD's suggestion is to tie a simple bow above the lock omitting the first step of crossing the laces. This prevents the locks from loosening.

By cutting out the fresh baked bread ;) and sugar I am down from 207 to 198 in a hurry. Today I felt, just for an instant mind you, some of the old swagger. How cool would that be to get just a little bit of that back! :)

I did have a cord lock slip failure at about 280 miles, but I'm not sure that I didn't hang the lace on something.  Maybe it was just a poor knot.

Almost none of this distance was done of anything like a paved surface.  I generally walk mountain biking trails in my area, which are hands down more difficult footing than 90% of any of the mountain hiking trails I've been on.  I find it good "foot work"  for rock-hopping on portage trails.  Rocks here are not generally slippery like granite, but occasional scree areas can produce a similar effect.  I then sometimes mix in a couple of equestrian trails, which are mostly like walking on a beach with loose sand.  Five miles of that can be a bit of a work out, even without a load (its a bit like wading a stream for a mile).

dd

Balance Grasshopper ;D =good core workout

i am looking at this thread again due to having the toe box rip out on two differnt pairs of OTB Abyss boots.  Both times this has happened half way through my second 8 day trip with the boot.  I loved these things, but I need something that lasts longer. 

I see that the Storm boot is discontinued by NRS and thought I might give it a try.  Does anyone have further updates on those as I know they had some similar problems?

Any other ideas?

Thanks

I read these water shoe threads with interest. I find too many reports of water shoes coming apart after only a few weeks of wet footing portages. For this reason I have held off buying anything and just drill holes in an old pair of work boots picked up at garage sales. Two years ago I drilled holes in a pair of Bates water proof 9 inch boots. They have now survived two 30 day canoe trips with many extra miles of searching out portage options in the back-country of Woodland Caribou PP. A close inspection shows that the inside fabric has no tears and the soles and outer components show no deterioration. This is the boot I seem to have. Mine are tagged as waterproof and in the description of these boots it mentions waterproof and not just water resistant as the name implies. Mine are 9 inches and that makes it a little hard to slip in and out of. The traction and ankle support are fantastic.    (You need to Login or Register

This year I drilled some drain holes in a old pair of boots that I had. I wore them on several canoe day outing around home.  They seemed fine. I put one of by Abyss boots and one of my old pare on and took a pack an took the dog for a walk.  The old boot was much more comfortable.  I wore them on my first trip this summer.  They were as comfortable as any boot I have worn.  I get blisters on every trip and I got less this time.  After being in the water for 2 days all day I noticed they were heavy.  It took more than a day for the lining to soak up all the water it was going to soak up.   They were an insulated boot.
MagicPaddler

I have been using the Columbia aquatooth shoe with wool socks for years and think they are great, but...... They have no ankle support. I tried the Chota's and they didn't fit right and they didn't drain fast enough for me. To get some ankle support for my next trip I might try the NB OTB Abyss II

I prefer fall weather so I tried a pair of very tall, waterproof boots marketed as snake boots.  No snake worries up here, but I loved being able to load and unload with dry feet and portage with no concerns over wet or rough conditions.  I take lite hikers or tennies for around camp.

Loose Moose - if you buy the Abyss II boots, I recommend coating the exposed threads on the rubber toe and heel protectors with epoxy.  they seem to be the weak point in the design, though it may be cheaper materials since the original company sold out to NB ?

I've got 211 portages (36 miles worth) on my original pair of Abyss boots I bought from OTB in 2007.  The only wear is on those exposed threads - I took the time to epoxy them this summer after my Q trip, and cemented the rubber heel protector on at the tips, where they were coming away from the shoe - nothing functionally wrong but fixed and good for at least a few more years I figure.

I've tried many different portage boots - the worst was the Chota Q Trekker, which started to fall apart on the second day.  I know people who swear by tehm, but they have boots they bought years ago when the quality was apparently better.  Have treid wading (fishing) boots too.  None of the boots have lasted as long as or performed as well as those original Abyss boots, so I still recomend them.  I have a second pair I bought to use when the originals die, but they are tstill in the original box.

No matter what you buy nowadays, it seems that you have a 1 in 3 chance of getting a failure.  That's just the way it is with everything being made in China. But doing a bit of preventive maintenance on exposed threads, and maybe even running a light bead of epoxy to areas where two materials join should help prolong any boots.  I had to do that with a pair of Kamik boots I used hunting - the glued on soles were coming away from the boots, both of them - that will be a tes for the epoxy fix, for sure.

Dr Scholl's Tennies.  I take two pair.  An old broken down pair for wet footing and a newer pair for comfortable general wear.

Are LL Bean boots too old school ?

knafelc wrote on Feb 26^th, 2013 at 1:54am:

Are LL Bean boots too old school ?

Anything that works for you and holds up for at least enough time to pay for itself may be old school but who's keeping score ;D
I have LL Beans that are 25yrs+ plus and still going strong although I don't use them canoeing.

Only thing about the Bean, is the tread on the sole. I'm not sure on slick/wet granite that it would give the traction you'd need to stay upright with a heavy pack on a incline/decline :-/

If that's not or hasn't been an issue for you wearing them, I wouldn't change something that's been working for you.

As others have attested too, some of the more recent/expensive Chinese made footwear are less than satisfactory.

I'm looking at the New Balance 220 Abyss II 8" OTB Tactical Water Boot.   It's advertised as an 8" boot but the only difference compared to the 6" boot that others crow about is an additional lacing strap.  It would seem to function as a 6" boot by not using that top strap.

Does anyone have these boots?  Are they any different (other than height) in function or fit from the shorter model?

Thanks,
Dave

I'm so confused.......New Balance is a good company and I bet these are a good boot. Certainly the price is right and I like the 8" height.

Who made the older Abyss OTB boots that have the reliability problems?

"Who made the older Abyss OTB boots that have the reliability problems?"

not sure, but I think it was the first group put out by NB

The original company was OTB Footwear, LLC formed to produce boots for the military - supposedly, the Abyss and Odhin were designed for the Navy Seals ("Over The Beach" - hence, the name).   All of the reviews were very positive for the first several years.  I bought my first pair direct from them (and still use them).  Then in 2010, they apparantly sold the rights to produce to ? New Balance? I guess - at that time, OTB was bacisally selling thier remaining inventory - first pair I bought was $115 + Shipping;  the pair I bought via the 2010 close out was $69 + - somewhere about that time, the reviews started to go downhill - either at the end of the OTB production, or the beginning of the NB production.

Last year I became a convert to rubber knee high boots. I bought a cheap pair in AK that ran $20 or so. Nothing fancy. They are pull ons. Only possible drawback would be the mudsucking bogs, which were not on last years menu.

Old Salt wrote on Feb 27^th, 2013 at 5:09pm:

Last year I became a convert to rubber knee high boots. I bought a cheap pair in AK that ran $20 or so. Nothing fancy. They are pull ons. Only possible drawback would be the mudsucking bogs, which were not on last years menu.

Not the ONLY possible drawback.

Seventeen years ago during one Spring trip, I pulled a young man out of frigid froth in Sturgeon Narrows who was wearing such boots when his canoe flipped over.  He could barely keep his nose above water despite wearing a perfectly functional life preserver. Later, after he stopped convulsing from the shivers and recovered his voice by our fire, we heard no end of curses for his knee-high rubber LaCrosse boots which had completely filled, nearly dragging him under & drowning him.

Two behaviors changed that day.  He STOPPED wearing knee-high rubber boots.  My brother & I STARTED wearing our life preservers.

I think such boots are fine on the portage trail.  I have a pair myself that I'll occasionally use... but I'll never wear them in the canoe.

Just a thought.

Jimbo   8-)

Jimbo,

A very good point on the knee high boots.  It depends somewhat on the type of boot.  I have knee high Lacrosse "Alpha Burly" knee high rubber boots which I wear hunting.  They are made of wetsuit material, and fairly tight fitting to the knee, so if water goes over the top they don't fill with much at all.  They are not cheap, $90 on sale.The cheaper, loose fitting knee high rubberized canvas knee high boots boots will act like buckets filled with water on your feet.  That is why people have drowned wearing the old style rubberized fabric loose fitting waist or chest high waders when fishing.  A guy I went to high school with drowned in a small pond wearing those old style waders.
9 days to Copia,

quentin

Quote:

That is why people have drowned wearing the old style rubberized fabric loose fitting waist or chest high waders when fishing.  A guy I went to high school with drowned in a small pond wearing those old style waders

Anyone who fishes in moving water or water deep enough you can't see holes should wear a good snug waist belt/back support to prevent that from happening.
A good snug waist belt on either neoprene/fabric will trap air and make you semi-buoyant if you take a dumping.

Last spring on my spring fishing trip to the Muskegon river which has real heavy current, I saw a guy wearing a manual waist belt PFD along with his wader waist belt.
I think that guy had some firsthand experience with holes/swift current and down the road I plan on getting one myself :thumbup

I used to wear neoprene footed/nylon hip waders with a water shoe.
They worked great but after reading Jimbo's cautionary tale, and a little experiment at the local beach, I realized I would be in the same boat if I dumped as he was.

Haven't given up on them entirely for cold water tripping. I think I could come up with a Velcro strap on top that would fit snug enough to keep the water out without cutting blood flow :-/

I've found OTB's pretty good for "non-recreational" swimming.  Couple with neoprene socks (e.g., Sealskinz) for cold weather tripping, if you like to dry-foot.

dd

I guess I forgot a couple of the finer points about my boots. I use a strap at the top to create tight seal, to hopefully avoid much water infiltration. Also, they have a good lug sole for good traction.

I would never advocate 'cement overshoes'. ;D