OK.......I've started looking at my Boundary Waters canoe, and I think there are some areas that definitely need some work.

Some of the "rental" scratches are pretty deep.......and I think I need to do some work before I take the canoe in June to the BWCA.

Here are some questions:

*  I've read the stuff on red rock's site about repairing Wenonah canoes......I'm going to use his recommendations.......but I'm concerned about over removing the old epoxy, if that is even possible.

*  In most cases the damage is only scratches, but a couple of places I can see where a deep scratch has exposed the kevlar fibers........AND I can feel the fibers...........should these be simply patched over with resin, or patched with a kevlar patch........THESE are not holes, just deep scratches.

*  Do I have to sand the canoe at all......CAN I simply clean it up a little, do a little sanding and epoxy over what is left.............or do I have to REALLY SAND the bottom, etc, etc.....I'm trying to get some kind of gauge here as to how much is enough, and how much it TOO MUCH.

*  I'm assuming West Marine epoxy is what I should use..........I'm planning on using the same system that red rock suggests.....

*  Finally........I'm pretty good at this stuff, but have never done this before.  I'm a little worried about damaging the canoe more.  I'm SKARED........

Thanks,

Geo

If the boat doesn't leak I wouldn't mess with it. If you try to sand kevlar it'll frizz like cottoncandy, then you'll have a huge mess. Think of the scratches as "character"! Heck  they're on the bottom I won't say anything. Now if the boat leaks, that's different. If you patch with resin, do so very conservatively,THIN LAYERS! Is your boat colored? you can try to match the color but It will never look as good as new!!! I'm not saying it CAN'T be done,$$$$$ ;) LOL FISHPIG - Leave a personal message for TimA on this site, look at his POSTS, he can help if you don't want to tackle it yourself.

Go for it Geo.  You can't make it worse I assure you.  If it were me, I wouldn't mess with patches though - some epoxy would appear to be sufficient for even deep scratches.  Old epoxy can be removed with some patience.  Post a picture of what you're up against and I bet we can help you out with a team effort.

West Marine, yes. Get the pumps from them that meter out the correct amount. Work with small amounts. Don't go back over wet areas. It needs to pool out to get smooth. If you keep messing with it, it will set up rough from your roller.

You already know what some of the fuzz looks like from some of the cuts and scraps in the bottom. Go lightly in an area till you get a feel for how much sanding is too much. You only want to help make a mechanical bond with a little structure for the epoxy to get hold of. Your not trying to remove layers.

If you have a real fuzzy area. Epoxy it first and tape it down smooth. Regular box tape is good, but needs a dry edge for the tape to stick to. After the epoxy is set, remove tape and you can lightly sand it when you do the whole bottom. The fuzz should be stuck down flat from the first epoxy coat.

Thanks.........

Here are some pictures of my damage:

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Geo: canoe repairs are no problem...just stash them under the "spreading Chestnut tree"....the smith, "a mighty man is he" will,with great heed..just strike an arc, and run a bead :)........by the way, I always thought you had some really nice photos  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Geo,  I bought a VERY abused Mad River Explorer kevlar canoe from an outfitter about a dozen years ago.  It had a couple of tears in it all the way through the hull.  My son & I Duct Taped the holes and spent a week in the BW with it.  I did the repairs to it the following winter, cutting out some areas and patching with layers of kevlar and fiberglass cloth.  It turned out so good that we bought another trashed canoe and fixed it too.  We added a few pounds to the factory weight but they perform perfectly...sometimes two trips a year.

Yours looks to need little but a light sanding (to remove any shine) and a light coat of resin.  

just my 2 cents

Terp

Hi Geof... :)   Nothing that I saw in your photos looked that bad.....#7 looks a little suspect of a stress but not a bad one. Little sand with 600-400 grit should give you the mechanical bond that you are looking for.....topical only. You can cover only up to the waterline if that is where the sustainal damage or scratches are or go above....its really up to you-the smaller amount of west that you apply to the boat the less weigh you will PU-minor at best. If there is fuzz that you can feel on those deeper scratches use a disposible razor and give them a shave....wetting b4 maybe be necessary but try dry first.....Back to the stress issue-----look inside the hull and look for those white halos around the deeper stratches....those are stresses....the next level of damage beyond a stress is basically a hole/tear/or crack that runs through all the layers of the lamination of the hull. They're straight forward to fix----if you can sand and make mac-n-cheese you can fix a hole or stress, but you will need a repair kit-wenonah dealers should have these-I know that Bell does but i am not sure about the compatiblity of the resins between the two manufacturers....ANYONE? Wear rubber gloves and carbon mask-the resins are not good for you...and a sharp SHARP sissors for cutting the textiles whether it is glass or kev....glass is more appropriate.....Do all your preping  and check all your fit before you mix your resin pot. Prep: sand, cleaning, cleaning-EtOH work pretty good-masking if appropriate-cutting the lamination material, and check it all again.....Mix pot----resin area-appli fabric-resin carefully-----roller or brush...your choice...Me Brushes that's it......dont use to much resin and use enough----very similar to painting-to much=runs/excess weight.....not enough its to dry-the idea is to saturate the fibers (all) in the lamination textile-because once the resin kicks all the way there is really no way to saturate them-dry lam is not as strong and a wet lam is heavy.....but a good lam oh my ;)..., This patch gig is done on the inside of the hull and on the the outside....just follow the instructions. The resins for the laminations are different than West-they are kicked with peroxide and strong oxidizer that is to be done in a well ventilated area.....dont do it in your house or attached garage :)Remeber to that on a really hot day the pot life of the resin is shorter and I have seen pots start to smoke from the heat generate on a hot day-burning resin is not KOOL :-/ The West thing is a walk in the park-pretty tame.....those mini rollers short knap would be what i would use.....the thing about West is that it has somewhat of a tendacy to run.....think on that a little and play with it you will come to see what i mean....dont alter recipe ...just teach yourself how the West behaves. The other thing that I have experienced is that the West system has a ton of UV inhibitors in it-----simply a fading /cosmetic issue.....If you dont fix you will have water migrate into the kelvar and repair will be more diffecult....A stitch in time saves NINE ;D

I believe epoxy over vinyl/poly -ester type resin is fine but the reverse order is not. I've often wondered about people who've varnished their boats and if it has to be removed before adding a coat of epoxy.

I did a boat in worse condition about five years ago. All I did was clean it, then a very light sanding in the few shiny places it had left (it had a lot more use as in most was pre-roughened by 'normal' wear so that boat was quite a bit fuzzier than yours). Then I rubbed it down with denatured alcohol.

With the canoe prepared I went to the hardware store and got two double syringes of quality epoxy, came home and spread the full contents of one on the canoe with a credit card just moving it around like a snowplow much as you would when spreading contact cement on formica and particle board. A roller sucks up more epoxy than the canoe will IMO.

A few hours later while it was still slightly tacky, I mixed up the other syringe set and spread it out the same way. It takes 5 minutes. You do want to work fast but don't use the quick epoxy as it's more brittle (harder) when cured. I only did the bottom and it was still rough. If it were my canoe I'd have done another, more 'dust free' layer or two but it was good enough for my piece of mind and it can always be re-coated and buffed.

It filled the deeper gouges nicely and took care of all the fuzzies which are why I bothered spending $10 and time to begin with. I know there was at least one sag/run and there may have been a couple more if you looked closely but the owner didn't mind and I'm told it's still holding up fine - not pealing off at least. Epoxy is really forgiving stuff.

That #7 - if it feels structurally funky you should probably add some glass to that area first.

That's my suggestion. Good luck, have fun.

I'm with db and Jim J on their suggestions.  Use the "slow" epoxy and a credit card or similar type of spreader to get light coverage over the superficial scratches and to fill the deeper ones.  I didn't see anything that looks like it needs patching.  Epoxy should fill those deeper gouges just fine though it will probably take 2-3 coats to get them back up to the same level as the rest of the canoe.  Patching would only be necessary if you plan on really abusing the canoe in rocks/rivers.  If you'll be doing normal touring and avoid giving the canoe a severe beating there's no way you'll stress those areas enough for them to fail, especially if you fill with epoxy.

I've filled a couple good gouges on my own canoe with this process.  My gouges had exposed kevlar just as yours did.  The hardest step is getting started.  Once you get going, you'll quickly gain confidence and by the time you are done you'll wonder what the heck you were so worried about to start with!

I always carry a duo syringe pack of "quick" epoxy and a small piece of fiberglass cloth as part of my repair kit on any canoe trip.  The quick stuff won't make a good permanent repair but it will certainly get you out of the woods should you damage the canoe to the point where duct tape won't provide enough of a temporary fix.  You can get those syringes of quick epoxy at Home Depot or probably any other good-sized hardware store in their "glue" section.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

There is a lot of good advise already posted....so I'l just add my two cents.  

I think al ot of what you do, need to be based on your desired outcome.

I have a cedardstripper that has required, pretty much every type of repair needed, including areas of glass replacement, but that is always a last resort.

It appears that most of yhe scratches on your boat are rather superficial.  A light  sanding will remove most of the scratches without ever reached the kevlar.  

The deeper scratches that have actually damaged the kevlar most likely will never disappear without being replaced.  That doesn't meant that you can't fill the scratches and still have a good smooth surface.

I would reccomend that after a light sand you will know which of the scratches need to be filled.  Now take duct tape and suround the are that needs to be filled.  Epoxy that area.  When the epoxy is cured, remove the tape and you will have a patch that extends the depth of the tape above the working surface of the canoe.  Now sand the filled area down smooth with the remaining surface.  

One that is completed, you can do a nice coat of resign over the whole surface and your boat will be as good as new...with the exception of a few beauty marks!

Good luck...IM me if you need further explanation or want further details.

-Brad

If you go the epoxy route - keep in mind that epoxy breaks down if left out in the sun.  So you could do a fine job of recoating the hull - only to have it go cloudy and flakey a year or 2 down the road if you store the hull outside unprotected.

A coat of exterior/UV-protective varnish would be called for in that case.  

Another thing you can do is to cover up to the waterline with a mixture of epoxy and graphite powder (mix the powder with the resin, then add the hardner and mix again).  You'd want to tape/mask off above the W.L., and lightly sand everything below, and you'd want a pretty thin coating.  Graphite powder is available from epoxy vendors - as would be details on how much per amount of resin.

After looking at your pictures I wouldn't do anything. Nice patina. Makes you look like a real tripper.

Generally before and after trips, look close and if you see anywhere you think the core could get wet, repair just that area. Think of the core as a cardboard box that's taped closed. Pretty stiff, if the cardboard doesn't get wet. If you think the core is, or was wet, let it dry a good long while before doing a repair. If the core ever gets wet and starts feeling spongy in that area, look for some experienced help before replacing parts of the core.

I've started the process....................Did a quick.....light sanding tonight.

Took all the shine off.........there were some places the epoxy was really, REALLY thin..........I have about 5 places where I have kevlar that fuzzed up a little with the deep scratches.

I'm getting the West Marine 105/205 system and pump tomorrow......

Per Old Scout and a couple from here, I taped an "artificial" waterline using some painters tape......I'm hoping to eliminate runs with it.  I know I might have to do some very light sanding to blend it in, but that is OK.

One other question..........

Do you suppose I need more than one coat of epoxy resin?  I am only planning on doing one coat, but I'm REALLY hard on gear, and a second coat will not bother me too much............

What do you guys think.

Thanks,

Geo

Hey geof.....Fineline tape (good paint shop of auto body supply shop-expensive but worth it IMHO) works great for the intial edge on the masking then regular blue masking tape for the balance. Be sure that you have good adhesion to the hull with the tape so that the exoxy does not migrate/wick under the tape....the etoh alcohol cleaning will help a long with a good amount of pressure when applying the tape will solve this issue. The fineline tape will also help you to make nice clean curves to the epoxy area. The masking will also allow one to sand the area neatly, as you will have a line to sand to. Be sure to remove the tape when the epoxy is still somewhat green....big mess otherwise with a lot more work when you have to remove masking-maybe you want the blue pin stripping ;). The West system has good UV resistant so IMHO not need for a UV resistant coating on top of the west system. The graphite additive looks neato but it is graphite and continues to shed after the expoxy cures( take a pencil and rub in on your hand and you will see what I mean), and it is actually a friction midagating additive and may not be necessary in your case and application, IMHO. Never tried the credit card application techinque but it makes total sense to me in "lou" of the roller  and or brush application. IMHO I dont think that I would fade out the edge via sanding, the edge height will be a function of the epoxy coat thinkness. As far as the second coat it is up to you and your intentions of this project-if a second coat is applied expand the second coat area outside of the first coat-this will help the fade out and the edge height=be sure to sand again before the second coat as the first coat will have a film on it as part of it's curing process. The point spoken to in regard to the core is similar to the kevlar fabric taking on water, I am not sure about the material the core is constructed out of....in Bell's it is a spun synthetic fabric or a rigid foam depending on the  lay-up and lay-up method. Remember water is heavy and an oxidizer and keepin' the water out of the lay-up is a good thing. I am all for West as I have not had a bad experience with the system and have used it quite a bit, the slow will be stronger as you have been informed. Hope this helps. M

GeoFisher wrote on May 5^th, 2009 at 2:11am:

I am only planning on doing one coat, but I'm REALLY hard on gear, and a second coat will not bother me too much............ What do you guys think. Thanks, Geo

I think you should trade it for a white gelcoat lay-up and not worry or else do a second coat after your trip. :D   One good scrrrraaaape and you'll be right back to the fuzzy scratch scenario anyway.

BTW - Why such a fast catalyst? Does the pump add proportionally less to slow it down a bit?

Riversend wrote on May 4^th, 2009 at 1:25am:

Geo: canoe repairs are no problem...just stash them under the "spreading Chestnut tree"....the smith, "a mighty man is he" will,with great heed..just strike an arc, and run a bead :)........by the way, I always thought you had some really nice photos  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Hey THANKS........

I'm getting ready to update my site with some more photos.....I upgraded my site to a "gold" member, so I now get something like 10gb of space..........wohoo.......

Later,

Geo

The west 207 gives UV protection - I don't think the 205 does.

205 is not recommended for clear-coating.  And if you've never had a batch of epoxy heat up on you - you might want to stay away from the fast harderner anyway.

db wrote on May 5^th, 2009 at 5:45am:

GeoFisher wrote on May 5th, 2009 at 2:11am: I am only planning on doing one coat, but I'm REALLY hard on gear, and a second coat will not bother me too much............ What do you guys think. Thanks, Geo I think you should trade it for a white gelcoat lay-up and not worry or else do a second coat after your trip. :D   One good scrrrraaaape and you'll be right back to the fuzzy scratch scenario anyway. BTW - Why such a fast catalyst? Does the pump add proportionally less to slow it down a bit?

DB.....the pump system makes it pretty much idiot proof to mix the stuff....and I'm an IDIOT........so I need it......

AND I'm not too sure about how fast, so I posted another quick thread about that.......

I'm getting pumped........and hope to get started/finished by the end of the week.

Thanks,

Geo

GeoFisher wrote on May 5^th, 2009 at 7:03pm:

so I posted another quick thread about that.......

In an effort to keep these thoughts linked - here's the link:
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It always strikes me that folks usually refer to maintaining their canoes as Kevlar repair when really what we're referring to is what's covering the Kevlar or glass or wood... My canoe is Kevlar but any repairs would be completely different.

Well...........I've done it now.....................

Stripped off the duct tape, sanded the patched areas down..........and just finished putting the West epoxy on........

I have some runs............as expected................and I have some areas that are cloudy......I think from the humidity........

But all in all, it looks pretty good.........

I will take pics tomorrow....

Later,

Geo

Here are some pictures of the AFTER repair...........I'm not completely happy with my results.......but I think it will do.........

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And another Youtube Video:

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THANKS to all that gave me advice.

Later,

Geo

Now you get the joy of putting some of your own    scratches      memories on it.