Similar to many of you I spend way too much time and money researching and buying new gear. Strangely, I haven't ever really put a lot of thought into the canoe that I use for tripping. And, up until last year I had always used an aluminum canoe. It was loud and heavy but it worked and always got me to where I wanted to be. But, seeing all of the light kevlar canoes on the water and wanting to cut portage weight I started to get some serious gear envy.

So, last year I rented a Minnesota II for a trip just to see how I liked it. Based on the reviews I had read it seemed to be considered a good all around canoe. Unfortunately, even before the trip was over I started to develop a deep hatred for the canoe. I am hoping that some of you can help me understand why. And, ultimately, point me in the direction of a canoe that I will enjoy.

First, the Minnesota II was noticeably lighter. But, it was incredibly uncomfortable to carry. The entire canoe was off balance and as a result it caused far more pain and fatigue than the heavier aluminum canoe ever did. My niece is roughly the same weight as the Minnesota II and I could carry her on my shoulders all day long. Unfortunately, the canoe felt more like carrying an elephant than carrying my niece. I would imagine that this is fixable, but how? And, is this common?

Second, in the water the canoe just seem slow; it dragged. It felt as though I was pushing it through the water while the old aluminum canoe felt like it was gliding through the water. It was almost effortless in the old canoe. Also, I noticed this dragging with and without a heavy load. Physically, I didn't see much of a difference in the shape or size of the two canoes. But, there was a huge difference in the performance.

Putting these two things together made me dread going near that damn canoe. And, that certainly isn't something that I am looking for. So, what am I looking for?

• Light and Easy to Portage: With the old canoe I could put it on my shoulders and let it go. It would just sit an balance. Doing this with the Minnesota II that I had rented was impossible. The old canoe was certainly heavy and I do want to move away from this. However, as stated above the lighter canoe was actually more difficult.
  
• Tandem with Solo Possible: I need an extra seat for a partner but it would be nice to be able to reverse the canoe for a solo trip.
  
• Smooth Glide: I don't particularly care how fast it is I just want it to glide in the water. If it feels like a chore to paddle I will not want to paddle.
  
• Carry a decent load: I tend to travel fairly light but I cannot always say the same for my traveling partners. It needs to be able to carry at least enough for a typical week long trip.
  
• Stable: It needs to be stable enough to fish from. I didn't have any problems fishing from the Minnesota II but any other canoes that I would consider would also have to meet this criteria.
  

So, is there something out there that fits this bill? Any feedback you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

I'd look into a SR 17 footer, I paddle 16 tandem solo, but for a tandem canoe I think the 17 might be a better ticket. Depending on your physical size/weight and gear you take, the SR 16 tandem might fit you also. I've taken the 16 with another paddler, 2 big portage packs, plus food pack and a couple of day packs, had plenty of room but I think you could solo the 17 if you ballast it out properly, and with two people, the extra foot would give you a better paddling speed.
I have to think the off balance problem was related to the yoke position, perhaps it was mounted too far off center?

Pla:

Somebody did not mount the yoke properly. It has to be at the balance point of the canoe which is not necessarily the center. I assume it was bow heavy, a brutal chore on long portages. The MNII should be considerably faster and have better glide than nearly any aluminum canoe (the only al boat that might come close would be an 18.5 Beaver, a rare bird). It is an asymmetrical boat and is best paddled solo just aft of center- but it's length and wind catching ability makes this impractical at best. I agree with ST's suggestion of a SR 17 - won't be as quick but much more versatile in regards to number of paddlers, a stable, strong canoe. The MNII was originally designed as a downriver racing canoe (sold for years as the WhitewaterII), as a tripper it sacrifices some stability for speed.

I'd 2nd taking a look at a SR Q17.  I rent the canoe for my trips.  My first 2 trips were in aluminum & I could handle the weight OK.  I got a Q17 for the 3rd trip after having back problems in the years in between trips.  
I was concerned it would be unstable, but I was quite comfortable in it tripping and fishing, even with my 11-yr old daughter in the middle sitting on packs.  My 2 more recent trips have been with SR Q18.5 (3-man) due to people considerations.  
I will go back to the Q17 when I can because the Q18.5 is slower - but it hauls a lot & is very stable too.  -Tom

Thanks for the recommendations of the SR 17, I'll add it to my rental list for the next trip.


Solus wrote on May 14^th, 2009 at 7:23pm:

Pla: ...The MNII should be considerably faster and have better glide than nearly any aluminum canoe (the only al boat that might come close would be an 18.5 Beaver, a rare bird). It is an asymmetrical boat and is best paddled solo just aft of center- but it's length and wind catching ability makes this impractical at best.

I am not sure what we were doing wrong because it wasn't fast and it didn't glide. We could make it go fast enough with considerable paddling effort. However, the second you stopped paddling it felt like someone stepped on the brakes. The other canoes I have used would glide. All of our travel was on relatively small lakes with little to no wind. And, the canoe appeared to be fairly new (it certainly wasn't beat up). Btw, we had three of them on our trip. All three performed the same. And, all three seemed to have the portage yoke out of balance. I was just surprised by the way it performed after reading so many positive reviews.

I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience, there's really no excuse for an outfitter to not check and make sure a canoe is balanced, esp at $30/day.

The only thing I can think of that would make the boats into slugs would be if the bow seats were stuck all the way forward, not allowing you to trim the canoe. A heavy bow would probably eat the glide. At 18.5 feet long the MNII should seem skinny and shallow the first time you get in it (from the stern position), small despite its length.

If you depart on your next trip through Ely you can borrow my "so ugly it should be slow" MNII, you might still be frustrated but at least it will be free.

Im surprised that Nobody has mentioned the Wenonah Boundary waters, It is another good choice.

Weight may have a little to do with glide but I only notice it solo compared to tandem or loaded vs empty.

Balance would be obvious and just moving something lashed in makes a big difference. Equal front to back is ideal. Stern heavy is more work and bow heavy is torture.

Were the pads much different than what you're use to? This might better simulate a niece's butt:
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There's another design out there too but I can't remember the name of it at the moment. It's not two pads, more of a wraparound deal. Anybody know what I mean?

Could be your expectations had a lot to do with it? - you were expecting a rocket and wound up with just a canoe ?  A lot of hype out there about canoes, especially about how fast canoe X is.  Since you said that all 3 of the MN IIs felt the same, that makes me wonder.  Also strange that the balance on all 3 was off, but I suppose that could be - did they all have sliding seats ?  could be the seats needed to be readjusted before a portage to get the balance right (both slid back as far as they could go) ?  I would have just lashed a spare paddle in to the stern to add some counter balance weight.

As to glide, if the bottoms were really scratched up, that could account for some of that.  Momentum may also account for some difference - a
heavier boat may be harder to get moving, but would be harder to stop, and should have a bit better glide.  Turning wise, the MNII would be a dog compared to the average, general use aluminum canoe.

People are always saying (and correctly) that all other things being equal, a longer boat should be faster - right, but how much different faster is one foot of length going to make ? - me, I'd say it is only a marginal difference.  Of course, its hard to find two boats identical except for length, so other issues come into play.  I can tell that my 16.5' KevLight Northstar is faster than the old 15' Grummans, but its not all that much faster -  in reality, I don't set out to paddle fast, I set out to paddle at a fast cruising speed, in any boat, under any condition - a speed that is most efficient use of my energy over the long haul that can be maintained all day.  The actual mph is irrelevent.
That may be a part of the difference you noticed- maybe the MNII needs to be pushed harder to achieve that cruising speed for you than your old aluminum boat - regardless of the actual speeds of the two boats, one felt faster to you, at your pace.

I suspect that what you are looking for in a new boat would be a kevlar version of your old boat?  So look for a more all around boat than the MNII.  My opinion, if your are going to solo that boat a third of the time at least, than go with a shorter tandem, a 15 or 16 footer - forget anybody who can't pare their gear down enough to fit in your boat (we tripped for years with two average adults in those 15' Grumans, for up to two week trips - everything fit - you can try to bring enough gear to need a 24 foot boat, but that's your call.  But the shorter boat will be a lot easier to solo, and you'd only give up a little bit of room and speed.

Test paddle a Souris River Q16 if you can get a chance, and see if you like that boat - but your in Boise? as in Idaho ? not much chance of running out for an afternoon to try a SR boat, but how about Clipper boats - Have to go to Spokane? for that I guess- you might like a 15 or 16' prospector type boat - the Wenonah Ultralight 16 footer weighs only 40 lbs. And the Wen Solo Plus is set up to be a tandem/solo crossover - you could try one of those, which I think are better as a solo than tandem.  There is another thread with a similar theme, take a look at that for ideas.  The Solo Plus, the Mad River Malecite, Old Town Penobscot and the Bell Northstar tend to be the suggested boats for solo/tandem crossovers, but you can't get a new Penobscot in Kevlar, and The Northsat doesn't solo well from the the front seat boat reversed position - these boats tend to be a bit narrower, and intent is to paddle from a more centered position.  But you might like the Bell boats, as they tend to me designed as a bit more all around boat, and you may like the Northstar.  The Eveningstar, a new boat, may be better - only problem is that you'd have to move a thwart to paddle reversed from the bow seat, but that's not too big a deal.  At least Bell and Wenonah dealers ccan be found in your area, and you could test paddle some of the boats.

I'd keep an eye open for used boats too - see something interesting on craig's list and you can always look at paddling.net for reivews to get some info on a boat.  

db wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 7:27am:

Were the pads much different than what you're use to?

The pads seemed to be identical to the old canoe. Unfortunately, I'm not even sure what brand and model the old canoe was. I purchased it used and it didn't have any recognizable markings on it.


Mad_Mat wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 1:22pm:

Could be your expectations had a lot to do with it?

I think this is probably a good part of it. I was expecting there to a substantial difference. Unfortunately, the difference was in the wrong direction.


Mad_Mat wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 1:22pm:

As to glide, if the bottoms were really scratched up, that could account for some of that.  Momentum may also account for some difference...

The speed of the canoe seemed fine to me once it got going. It was the lack of momentum that was the problem. It took noticeably more effort to maintain speed than it did in the old canoe. For instance, in the old canoe in calm water you could paddle at a very leisurely rate and still maintain a decent amount of momentum. On the other hand, as explained above, the MNII would quickly come to a stop when not paddling. Perhaps this is because of weight. One thing I did notice was that the MNII seemed to sit lower in the water than the old canoe. Maybe that contributed to friction on the water.


Mad_Mat wrote on May 15^th, 2009 at 1:22pm:

Test paddle a Souris River Q16 if you can get a chance, and see if you like that boat - but your in Boise? as in Idaho ?

LaFromboise is my last name and not my location; I live near St. Louis Missouri. I plan on setting up an appointment for next weekend to do a test paddle of a few canoes at KC Paddler. So, hopefully that will give me some answers.

Thanks again to everybody that has provided feedback.

I don't have any experience with wenonah, however, try a BELL Northwoods. In MY, let me say it again, In MY opinion, Its a great all around boat. Perhaps the best all around tandem. If you're interested in a solo combo- It won't measure up to a pure solo boat. The greatest thing in life ok the 2nd best thing in life is paddling a solo canoe on a crisp fall morning with the colors blazing off the first hint of light. And a beer for breakfast. ;)

Just to add a bit to what M_M said about canoe lenght in solos. At some point more wetted surface has an effect on performance too.

The MII could have had some very soft bottoms?? Oil canning bottoms will feel like dogs.

Overall I'm a bit puzzled about the performance issues. There is too much hype about speed. Nobodies racing out there. Anyway in racing they say "If you're getting beat by minutes, paddle harder. If you're getting beat by seconds, try a new boat" Just another way of saying there's little difference between similar boat designs.

Just going by "feel" can be deceiving.  We once rented a Wenonah Itasca that felt slow to me.  When I checked it on the GPS, we were actually travelling a full mph faster than we typically did in a SR Q17 the previous year with about the same effort.

I second FishPig....gotta try a Bell Northwoods!  The Bell is not as fast as a Wenonah, but it's stable, comfortable, and sweet!  

prouboy

BELL NORTHSTAR-4 a tandem-10/14 day trips no problem. Paddled.SR17, MNII, Seliga-another good boat if ya need a barge in kevlar. Understand the weight thing/momentum paddled an old chestnut in my Menogyn days and it is super nice to have the mass, and one grows into the mass in time on the trails-the old barge weighed only 20 pounds less than me when wet and one ups and downs were comfortably possible.....lightness does not equate to speed, quietness, or durablity.....all boats are a compromise.

Jim J Solo has a great point! Test drive alot of boats, LOADED. Find your own that you like, and buy it. It doesn't have to be an all out racer, come on we're supposed to be relaxing and enjoying the wonder of the Northwoods! I paddle a 20 year old boat by choice, I like it, it suits me. It's not the fastest, but it's a good freighter. Take out a loan and get the boat of your dreams. Treat yourself, don't cheat yourself. :)

Fishpig has it.....testdrive ;)for a trip..... ::)

You should put that on a bumper sticker Marlin! EXACTLY DEAD ON. The only perfect boat was NOAH'S!