When you plan a trip… just how planned are you?

I usually have a goal of where or what lake I would like to stop on each day but sometimes stop early or go farther depending on different criteria. The only time I push for a destination is the last night, I don’t like having a full hard day on the way out & then driving 4+ hrs. Try to plan for an early afternoon exit.

Do you lay out your complete trip by the day, planning fishing & day tripping days? Or are you like me & go with whatever the day brings.

Do you bring a watch & eat at specified times? I have never taken a watch & stop to eat when one of us is hungry.

I generally pack food in general & then decide each time what we want to eat. We usually end up over packing food & carrying it out with us.

I guess I would like to know how others do it? I usually travel with only one other person, but in August I will be leading a trip with 8 people.

I have a 10 day trip in a couple weeks & was thinking of using a large zip-lock & package each days meals in its own bag. This way maybe I can cut some weight in the food pack.

I have never used an outfitter for food or supplies… only canoes on occasion… how do they package meals?

Looking for some feedback & ideas on what has worked for you & what hasn’t.

Troy

Hi, WW.
I am a planner. I put together alternative itineraries, checking on portage distances, paddling distances, pictographs, waterfalls, fishing opportunities, etc. Depending on conditions we often deviate from the plan. I agree with your easy last day before the drive home, so we always work toward that. That does sometimes result in a long penultimate day.

On the food front, I, too, tend to bring more than is needed. And I do plan out a menu by day based on what we are likely to do, how long we will travel, etc. I then pack the food with each meal in a separate ziplock bag. Staples, cleaning supplies, etc. are in other ziplocks. But we feel free to deviate from the plan, especially of the fishing is particularly successful or not. Or if we just feel like the pasta today instead of something else.

We have used outfitters and every one packs the food by meal, with each labeled as to the meal and day it is intended for.

I sort of mix and match the food and event planning. I hate too be unorganized, BUT part of the reason I enjoy the trip, is to get way from being organized to the point of being anal about it ;D
I plan my meals based on X amount of breakfasts/lunches/dinners.
I remove all ingredients from boxes and repackage in zip lock, with either a cutout from box of cooking instructions, or write them on zip lock.  The cutouts make great fire starter's, so take that in too consideration.
 I label what everything is, but my breakfasts are real simple, instant oatmeal/oatmeal breakfast bars and coffee. This is my travel day, hit water first light menu. I "nosh" on Trail mix as I paddle/portage too keep my energy level up and blood sugar level even. Plenty of water all day long, ( pee clear). Lunch is normally a couple of Venison sticks/ 2 little wax coated cheeses, and depending on hunger level, a whole wheat flat bread or similar. Whole grains pack the most punch, last longest.
 Dinners are in no particular order, I eat what sounds good when I look in box. I take bulk brown instant rice/ whole grain pasta/ cous-cous, and veggie bullion cubes to add to rice/cous-cous for a side dish.
 I don't plan on eating ANY fish, but depending on my luck, I'll either comeback with a few extra meals, or my pack is almost empty.
 I plan my layover days based on a couple of things.  IF I've busted butt to get to a nice lake with great campsites and fishing potential, more likely than not, I'll spend a "camp" day there.  I like too spend a camp day about every 2-3 days depending on how hard the route is, and not wanting too miss staying in a nice spot and explore the lake.
I leave 1 more day than I think I really need when I'm coming out, just so I'm not late for my outfitter pick-up. When I get close enough that I know I can get out, no matter what, I'll take one last camp day too relax, organize my gear and savor my last night in park.
 Depending on you "need" to organize you can do a little or a lot in the way of planning and meal organizing.
 I kind of like too " Roll with the punches" but in an organize way, IF that makes any sense ;D

I pretty much do what Solotripper does. Unless: I'm travelling with 6 or more people. Then I do a detailed itinerary. Each day, where we'll be, based on my judgment of how long it will take from one point to another; it takes large crews longer to move than small crews. With larger groups, each day has it's own menu -- breakfast on travel days like Solotripper, on layover days pancakes. With large crews I also make up a "duty roster" -- who does the dishes, who gathers fire wood, who actually cooks the meals.

My evening meals I prepare at home. Each meal is in its own zip lock bag with a big label on the bag. If there is something to cook which requires instructions, I type up instructions and put them in the bag. All other foods are taken out of whatever container and placed in zip local bags with suficient cardboard retained to assist in fire making.

I have 1500 miles to go, so I make no effort to get a good start in the afternoon. I get back to the outfitter in late afternoon. Clean up. Go into town to eat. Then start for home in the morning.

Tim  

Oh, I'm a planner all right, I plan everything.  

I travel every day but one layover day, and I plan long days at each end of a trip (but like you, a short exit day at the end), and short days here and there to allow for fishing or whatever, and a change of pace.  I consider a "plan B" for in case I can't make the plan A.

I guess I'm one of those "Russians" that the old fogeys were unable to understand from the other thread - I have goals for my trips -  to see some new country each time, maybe to revisit some favorite spots, and to travel fast and light and hard, to challenge my limits - part of what I want out of a trip is the workout.  I don't like to sit around camp and relax all day, or fish all day for days in a row - I'd be bored stiff - I do have slow time built in, and fishing time, but mainly I like to paddle and explore, so I do.

To do the trips I like to set up, I need to know time and distances between here and there, and more or less be "on schedule", or I won't make the loop in time to get back to work when I need to.  So I have a campsite in mind for every night, and a plan B if I don't get there, because I've been hammered by headwinds for the last 3 days in a row (and some shortcuts figured out if I need them).  I break down a day's travel into increments - canoe 3 miles = 1 hr; portage to lake X, 80 rods = 30 min etc, and I add up those increments to make a 10 hour day (typical) or 12 hr day, or 6 hour day if I want a short day.  Its easy  to just wing it for a short day, no big deal if you start late or finish late, but for a 12 hour day I need to be more precise in my planning.

I like to go light weight, cause I'm getting to be an old fogey myself, and things hurt, or don't work as well as they used to.  So I've been buying new gear over the past few years to cut ounces - to do that you have to weigh everything you have, and select for the lightest, and maybe for what to leave behind.  That's all part of the planning I do.

I even plan for a change of entry date, if I can get to Atikokan early enough to make the change to a day earlier.  This year, I have an entry reservation for the 25th, but am going to try and get there in time to switch to the 24th and get an extra day on the water.  Planning for that, I have the extra day's food packed - if I can't make it in time, I just pull that one day's food out - it would take about half a minute to make that change.

Part of my planning, for traveling light, is to be real precise in what food I bring, so I don't bring anything extra, except for a ziplock sandwich bag's worth of extras.  Each day's food is packed into one bread bag (I can do that even if I pack for two people, though I'm going on a solo trip this year), and the bread bags are numbered and packed into my food bag so each new day's food is on top when I get to it - a lot more efficient than digging around in a pack, trying to decide if I want this, or that or the other for dinner today, especially if I'm hittin gcamp at 7 or 7:30 - I really hate to cook in the dark.  For just me, for this year's trip - 12 days food weighs just 15 lbs, 2.3 ounces - about 20 ounces a day.  Can't get that light without a lot of planning, and I've been perfecting my food packing for years to get it down that low - more planning.

The result of all that planning, is I have my trip set up the way i like it - 160 miles, 60 portages, and I know that I will carry 92 lbs across the portage from Nym to Batch, inlcuding a qt of water, on day 1 of 12, and I know I will be back in time for the 1300 mile drive home when I need to be.

Not a system that appeals to everybody, but it suits me.  I do the same planning if its just me, or me and my bro.  Have done the same for a group of 4 on a couple of trips.  I would not trip in a larger group, too much trouble trying to get more than four people to agree to anything, so you tend to sink to the lowest common denominator.  For a large group like you are taking, 8 people, I think everybody has to plan their own food.  I plan a slightly easier trip if my brother goes, and for a group of 4, a much easier trip - the more people involved, the harder it is to match likes and dislikes about food, pace, and even where to camp.  For a group of 8, I'd think that a base camp trip would work best.

So laugh at me if you want to, but I enjoy the planning as a part of the trip, and the challenge of keeping to a light load.  The more ambitious the trip, the more planning you have to do to make it.

I'd guess that for people who are more or less "local" to BWCA, planning isn't as important - they can get there several times a year and do some eays trips and some hard trips, focus some on fishing, or more on a relaxed pace - but for me, if I'm lucky enough to get up there once a year, well, I do a lot of planning - part of the anticipation.

Now on the other hand, I do a lot less planning for local paddling trips, overnighters or 3 day trips, and I'm not so weight conscious - don't need to be for river trips with no portages.  But I still don't cook much - I hate to do dishes when I'm out having fun.

M_M I remember you use to weight stuff at the Post Office. I found they make some nice digital kitchen scales that'll go to 11#. Kind of handy when you're packing and planning.

Thanks for the replies so far... lots of good ideas & suggestions. I like the seperate bags for B-L-D & another for snacks. I will have to make an effort to eat at a scheduled time... it seems when I get out hunting or paddling I can go pretty much all day without eating.

My trip with my son in June will be a pretty easy loop, just 65 miles in 10 days, so we can layover a day here & there. I am not too worried about planning each days goals.... I will have them in mind, but will go with the flow.

This meal thing is something I need to figure out. When I mentioned the 8 person trip in August, it will be me, my wife & 2 kids (14 & 16yrs), with my brother, his wife & there 2 kids (6 & 10yrs  ) My family has been on one other trip with me, but my brothers family is new to this.

I am planning entering Moose River North & camping on Boulder or Tiger bay & then day trip from there & come back out. So pretty easy... wondering if we could make it to Boulder in a day... I have my doubts.

Troy

Woods,

My family knows me as "a planning S.O.B."  Generally I have all my packs planned & trial-packed in canoes many months in advance of a trip.  That first packing plan can happen anywhere from December through February (even earlier).  Then, almost every weekend afterward in which I dedicate any thought to the matter, it WILL change.  It is always a work in progress.  As far as food-packing goes, I've pretty much gone to the school of thought where each group meal is pre-packed in a separate ziplock.  Also, my rule of thumb when using commercially prepared freeze-dried meals (Campmor, Cache Lake, Richmoor, whatever) is to go with a minimum of DOUBLE whatever portions they claim will satisfy you.  In fact, this year I am planning food for 3 individuals and I'm going with an 8:3 ratio on those-type commercial products.  Nobody travelling with me has ever been known to starve... though sometimes they DO complain a bit when portaging the food barrel (yes, Woods, you sold me on those blue barrels!).

"Packing light" has never been one of my strengths.  I ALWAYS carry way too much crap.  Generally I don't care; I'm one of those beast of burden types & I even kind of like the workout.  Last year I paid for that dubious approach, however, when I got pretty ill.  That experience & the relentless cumulative effects of aging have started me thinking about investing in LIGHTER crap, at least.   Nevertheless, if someone in my paddling party forgets something, its a pretty good bet they can simply ask me and I'll probably have an extra whatever (fishing poles, maps, reading materials, lawn ornaments... you name it).  My name & "planning to travel light" should never be used in the same sentence.

My philosophy re: routing is to stay flexible & adjust to group needs as they develop.  The best planning the group leader can EVER do re: routing is right up front: KNOW the group you are planning for!  Even then, I prefer to plan loops that offer many options en route (to allow for being wind bound, good fishing, group energy, changing interests, etc.).  For instance, this year I have a 100+ mile loop thorugh WCP planned.  We could probably cover the entire route fairly easily and still have 3-4 or more layover days during our 13 days on the water.  Nevertheless, the odds of us really doing the whole thing are probably less than 20%.  Something ALWAYS comes up, especially when travelling with larger groups (this year: 9 paddlers on 3 permits).   There are 3-4 targeted lakes that I absolutely want to hit.  Generally I plan a layover for those.   Then there's another 2-4 that would be "nice" to hit.  Therefore I've plotted alternative loops of 40, 60, & 80 miles to coincide with group decisions about those spots as we go along.  Since we have the 3 permits, it could be that the 3 parties make different decisions & take different loops but end up in the same place at the end.  However we do it, we ALL have well-marked maps showing every known campsite on every lake falling on any of the routes.

I plan HEAVILY - months in advance - then plan to change that "plan" almost every step of the way.  The relationships are what is golden, NEVER the plan.

Jimbo   8-)

Jimbo:

Lawn ornaments? Remind me not to travel with you. I have not cut the pockets out of my pants to save weight -- but it's crossed my mind.

Tim

Woods_Walker wrote on May 21^st, 2009 at 9:44pm:

I will have to make an effort to eat at a scheduled time... it seems when I get out hunting or paddling I can go pretty much all day without eating.

I'm sure others do this as well, BUT even though you may not notice any problems, in the long run, you putting yourself at risk when solo, and others when leading a group by not keeping your energy level up (blood sugar) and equally important being properly hydrated.
 Low blood sugar/hydration can and will effect your reasoning abilities and decision making capabilities. Maybe not every time, but the odds will catch up after awhile. Combine low blood sugar/dehydration and hypothermia and you have a recipe for disaster especially in people in less than top condition.
 Many people falsely believe that if their a few/many pounds overweight, they can go without eating and the fat will hold them over.
That's not really true. You need to burn about 1600 calories a day, JUST to keep your basic body functions from shutting down. Any body fat reserves/excess's you have won't kick in until your body senses its in real trouble. Your caloric intake during the day fires up your metabolism and allows for some of that reserve fat to burn off along with the daily calories.
 Eat a hardy breakfast, snack as you travel, I like trail mix, the dry fruit is powerhouse of energy along with the nuts. Don't wait till your hungry, by then you already have low blood sugar. Same with drinking water. by the time your body says it's thirsty, your already dehydrated.
 Do a little hands on experiment ;) One day do what I suggest for the entire group and see how everyone feels that night? Then let everyone do as they feel yourself included the next day.
 I'll be willing too bet, you and the others will notice the difference, even though they might not be able too place a finger on why?

Solotripper is dead on. Enough water and enough vittles in the bush -- not a place to compromise. I make up a trail mix of granola, nuts, chocolate chips, peanut butter chips, dried fruits (I particularly like apricots, but not everybody does). At each portage, I open the packs and pass around the trail mix -- not many pass it by. And I make sure everyone has a cup of their own and that it is not buried at the bottom of a pack -- it's out and accessible.

Tim

There are only  two of us, and I do all of the food planning and packing, but Spartan1 plans the route and itinerary (for the most part.)  We have a definite route in mind most years, with layover days planned in, which sometimes become wind-bound days and sometimes are just for the fun of it.  We are definitely "old fogeys" now, but I have never in my life been "bored stiff" (whether in the canoe country or anywhere else) so that isn't a problem.  Finding something interesting to do just is part of my nature, I guess.

Routes have changed from time to time, due to weather, due to health concerns, due to "what do you suppose is up here?" and once or twice just for the hell of it.  The year of the "friendly flies" we actually decided to end one day early--that was a first!  

Because of my husband's insulin dependent diabetes we would never dream of starting out, even in the BW, with only just enough food for the planned number of days.  I always pack enough food for two more days, and am very thankful to be packing it back out again if necessary.  It might very well be a life and death situation for him to not have enough food available if the weather turned very cold or we were injured and had to spend a couple of extra days.  But of course our situation isn't really typical.  Still, I would think anyone on a solo trip would be very foolhardy to only have enough meals packed for the exact planned number of days, unless there are lots of extra snacks in that pack.

Solotripper is right about hydration and keeping the blood sugar on an even keel.  This is very important for anyone, regardless of body weight, level of fitness, or general health.  Good healthy carbs, whole grains, protein, and enough non-caffeinated fluid is essential.  

We pack food in two packs in case something happens to one of them.  I don't decide upon what food we will have on a given day, but usually choose on that day, so I am not as efficient as I should be.  But with only two of us, it isn't as crucial.  If I were planning and fixing meals for a group of eight or nine I would certainly have the meals all bagged together.  In the morning we have a big breakfast unless we are in a real hurry to break camp.  We carry our lunch, which is more "snack-y" in an outside pack pocket.  Snacks are always available, both complex carb snacks and the high-sugar ones for insulin reactions.

We really like eggs in the morning, and have fresh eggs for the first four days usually (unless the weather is terribly hot) and Backpacker's Pantry Denver Omelette after that if time is allowing.  The eggs are in a cardboard store carton, in a paper grocery bag, duct-taped under the stern seat of the canoe, and stay there quite safely during portages unless Spartan1 drops the canoe.  (Then we have a big omelet for supper that night.) ;)

After doing this for 37 years I would think planning would be second nature, but I must confess that occasionally I still forget something or realize I have made a mistake.  So I guess I should spend more time like Jimbo getting everything packed up 'way ahead of time.  I always make lists, but don't assemble things until about 3-4 days before departure from Michigan.

We normally have a short last day, spend some time in Ely or Grand Marais, stay overnight, and take a few leisurely days getting home.  There are some real advantages to being "old fogeys".   ;D  (one of us is retired and the other one gets LOTS of vacation.)

Part of my planning is a list I have developed over 25 years in Quetico Park travel and 50 years of trekking of one sort or another. Sometimes, as the list gets transferred from one computer or another, items get deleted/lost/whatever. My list makes it easier for me to remember rarely used items that might turn out to be critical or the compass (or other item) that "I think" is in such-and-such a spot. I physically make a check next to each item as it gets loaded in the pickup.

Don't let Spartan 2 kid you. She's a little tougher than she lets on.

Tim

Oh, Tim, I never said I wasn't tough!  Just because I don't want to take a hurried pace doesn't mean I am not tough!  

And I also have a list on the computer which I print each year, keep handy, and check off quite religiously.  Where the rub comes in is usually the last-minute things we buy up in Minnesota, or the thing that I am sure I have packed, but somehow I checked it off without actually putting it in.  Not gonna call that a senior moment yet, though.  ;)

Woods_Walker wrote on May 21^st, 2009 at 1:43pm:

When you plan a trip… just how planned are you?

Depends on whether it's a base-camp trip or if I will be moving around a lot.  The more I plan to move, the more moved I am to plan.  For basecamp trips or on routes I know well, I'm pretty loosey-goosey with the planning.  

If I'll be moving daily or close to it, especially in new areas, I'll plan much more extensively.  I'll gather intelligence all winter (Hey Bo, do you know of any Japanese radar installations or alien spaceship landing sites on my route that would be neat to see?) and as I do so I just have a MS-Word file open where I dump everything that I gather.  Once I have figured out what's to see and do, and get portage, campsite, and fishing info, I will transfer some of that info onto my maps and organize the rest into a trip "rutter" (a rutter was a set of sailing instructions for unfamiliar waters used by explorers and ship captains during the so-called Age of Exploration).  I'll print this out on waterproof paper and bring it on the trip.


Quote:

Do you lay out your complete trip by the day, planning fishing & day tripping days? Or are you like me & go with whatever the day brings.

Yeah, I lay it all out, but then once I'm on the trip I don't necessarily feel tied to the plan.  I like to be in control instead of being controlled by a schedule, even one I've written.  Most times I'm reasonably close to the script though.


Quote:

Do you bring a watch & eat at specified times? I have never taken a watch & stop to eat when one of us is hungry.

I bring a watch because I can't function without knowing the time.  That said, I eat when I'm hungry.  The watch just allows me to extract the maximum possible time on the water out of each day.


Quote:

I generally pack food in general & then decide each time what we want to eat. We usually end up over packing food & carrying it out with us. I guess I would like to know how others do it? I usually travel with only one other person, but in August I will be leading a trip with 8 people.

I plan my meals first, devising a master menu for the trip.  This menu comes along for the trip in a ziplock.  Then I make a "grub list" for the trip which contains every single item I'll need to prepare and eat each meal, along with the quantity needed.  Each dish is packed in it's own ziplock but I rarely if ever pack entire meals together.  Once on the trip, I will mix and match side dishes as necessary to go with whatever quantity of fish we'll be eating (ranging from zero to 100% fish).  Some side dishes are smaller and some are larger to facilitate this.  There's usually a dessert or two and a couple main dishes along for the ride, which may or may not get eaten.  This, along with whatever trail mix is leftover, is my emergency food ration.

I always track how much of every item comes on a trip and how much was leftover, if any.  I know, for example, I'll need about 2 oz of syrup per person per meal of pancakes and that when we have cheese and sausage tortillas for lunch we'll use about 1/4# of sausage each.  By knowing all of these per person averages, it's easy to plan meals for a big or small group (and the bigger the group, the better these averages work).  I'll fine tune things a bit if I know the preferences of those on the trip, going heavier or lighter on certain items based on their likes and dislikes.  After many years of doing this, I don't haul much food out of the woods at the end of each trip.

Breakfast type meals get packed together, dinner type gets packed together. Desserts... Breading in a bag of it's own... the second half my lunch & snacks scattered about in nooks and crannies. On group trips, lunch was always strictly up to individuals (per canoe to as be with them at all times) and everyone pretty much knew what the meal portion sizes would be so they could adjust with what they brought for lunch. Group cooler for group food.

One thing I learned to do the first night was physically show everyone how much stuff like dish soap there was and how much syrup we had for x number of pancake meals. Things like that. This tradition started on the trip we discovered one guy preferred pancake soup and coffee flavored maple syrup. His wife used half of the dish soap cleaning dishes for one meal. (They both thought there were similar sized containers for each meal.)

Lunch for breakfast, dinner for lunch and breakfast for dinner, whatever, depending on mood, situation and conditions. What's been hardest for me to adjust is that I need less food in Aug than May. I started with the usual extra 'just in case' meal which always came home. If I do a ten day trip this Summer, I'm only bringing food for eight. There's always plenty o' fish in Aug.

When we started out, we'd shop together for group food friday after work and toss in whatever, in it's original packaging no less, and hit the road hopefully before midnight. That system needed to be and was refined year after year until my first few solos where I was truly anal about what I brought and how it was packed. Lately, since I still use the same food/cook pack that works nicely for two I have absolutely no qualms about tossing in a bag of doritos and/or brussles or some other fragile, highly breakable type food I'd have poo-pooed or at least been disappointed by years ago. Why? Perhaps simply 'cause now I can and have only myself to blame.

On itineraries.
For group loops I found it was advantageous to nudge people along until we pasted the point of no return. It never failed that day three someone would say: "This is a nice place. Let's just stay here." And I'll admit it's tough to argue with someone when you and everyone can easily understand their logic. ;)

Solo, I leave a map with my wife with a line or two and lots of circles and arrows and go over it with a friend that knows me and knows the Park better than my wife. It's sort of a plan full of possibilities and it all depends on what I find and the weather I get. If I say I'll meet you this lake on this day I'll make it a point to be there but beyond that, a day's distance, campsites, day-trips... it mostly depends on wind and clouds although I rarely deviate from the map I leave and even then only if a reasonable person would do the same based on water levels or outright closures.

It's the only place a wear a watch. One day last trip, my first choice for the night already had two groups nearby. The next desirable lake already had one group and I got a bad vibe. It was nice to know for sure that there was enough daylight left to get past an area normally expected to be congested with enough time to settle in and get comfy a lake or two later. Moving five miles or even two on a layover lake - fine by me.

db wrote on May 22^nd, 2009 at 6:23am:

One thing I learned to do the first night was physically show everyone how much stuff like dish soap there was and how much syrup we had for x number of pancake meals. Things like that. This tradition started on the trip we discovered one guy preferred pancake soup and coffee flavored maple syrup. His wife used half of the dish soap cleaning dishes for one meal. (They both thought there were similar sized containers for each meal.)

Yeah, I've learned to do this also anytime there is someone along who is new to our group.  It helps a ton!

I pretty much do as others have said here, with a large zip-lock for each dinner meal and all its necessary components all together so no hunting in all the packs for the ingredients at dinner time.  I have a separate lunch pack with the cheese, salami, crackers for the day, etc. so I just have to pull that out of the kayak when I stop for lunch.  With a group I make each person buy the snacks, trail mix, drink mixes, jerky etc. for themselves.  That way they each can bring what they want and since it tends to be expensive stuff, it keeps the general grocery bill for a group down.  They each have a small back pack for their stuff and we throw it all in a big pack to hang at night.
Last year we ate well and I think the general groceries ran about $7.00 per person per day.  
Regarding getting to Boulder Bay from Moose Landing North in one day, in mid-summer, may not be possible with a group.  Keep in mind it is busy on that route and may be hard to get a campsite if you do not stop fairly early in the day.  Between keeping your group organized and waiting on others at portages, the portages are a slow process.   8-)

Wow, these are some great replies  ;D

Thanks a ton everyone, I will be making a plan for each day because my son has to know whats next & what the plans for the day are or he will drive me crazy... LOL.... He is a planner for sure.

I also think I need to plan the meals, because he will never make up his mind on what we should fix.

When traveling with my uncle he always picks the heaviest items to eat 1st, because he carries the food pack.  ;D

IC.. thanks for the heads up on reaching Boulder Bay... I had my doubts too... might plan for Agnus instead... we will try to be on the water early & see how things go.

Troy