Here is a complaint I filed with the forest service and their utter dropping of the ball reaction and followup.



Dear Sir or Ma'am,
   
  On 5-20-09 I filed a complaint at the Kawishiwi Ranger Office in Ely.  I was camped in the northern portion of the Kawishiwi Triangle and for 4 days was subject to listening to automatic and semi automatic gunfire (about 300 rounds over the course of 3-4 days) from across the bay. From the night of the 19th, I also had photos of an absolutely reckless campfire about 10 feet tall, and from across the bay, could be seen illuminating the trees around their camp making it look like a movie set.  I thought they were going to start the woods on fire and was happy to be upwind of them.  As we were paddling back to the lake one entry on the 20th, I could hear the gunfire behind us, as they had not broken camp.  As soon as I got back to the Lake one outfitter I phoned it in, and told Becca that I would be stopping in as well.  Becca seemed very concerned and said that they had a similar report earlier in the week from about the exact same campsite I was referring to.  (A female camper exited on the 18th and reported the shooting, but no one showed up to investigate.)  I stopped in to the station about an hour later and spoke to them in person and showed them the photo of the crazy camp fire from the O.K. Coral and they were amazed.  They contacted Mr Johnson from the Law Enforecement division and he requested I stay there to speak with him.  I went and got lunch and met him back there at about 2 PM.  He gathered most;ly the same information and seemed skeptical that I actually heard an Automatic weapon.  I explained that I work next to the shooting range at work and that it was definately an automatic weapon, as well as 2 or 3 other semi auto, different caliber weapons.  We discussed the possibility of firecrackers, which are illegal and a fire hazard as well.  He said he was going to check into it and that his partner had received a very similar report two full days earlier.  

  To tell you the truth, it didn't seem like he wanted to do much about it or invest the resources required to go and show up at the campsite.  They could have reached the campsite by canoe in about 3 or 4 hours once they had a canoe loaded to go, or they could have borrowed one from an outfitter I am sure.  Here are my concerns:

1.) Even if skeptical, why was the first report of automatic gunfire on Monday not followed up on? Better safe than sorry. A little extra ranger presence would be good anyway.

2.) After my phone in report, why was something not mobilized for that afternoon being that I called it in around 12:30?

3.) Here it is a week later and I have heard nothing after I was told I would be contacted after the follow up investigation.  Did anything get done?  

 I guess I would just like to know if the Forest Service for the Boundary Waters is really there for protection of campers, or just for the checking of permits, cans, and bottles?  If that is the case, then I would be more than happy to take my tourism dollars somewheres else.  I love the Boundary Waters and rave about it to everyone I know but this type of response is completely not what I expected.  

Thanks,
Bud
-------------------

Mr. Hicks,
Sorry you had a bad experience in the BWCAW.  Just to give you some background.  We only have one Law Enforcement Officer per district and currently the position at Ely is vacant.  Therefore, the Officer (Sheffer not Johnson) that responded to Ely to talk with you, had to respond from Cook.  He was under the impression from you that the individuals were probably not in the site or would not be by the time he got there.  He did try to get a flight into the area to see if the individuals were still there, but the weather was not acceptable for flying into that area.  

We do take these reports seriously and try to make contact with possible violators when ever possible.  However, with limited resources we do the best we can.

Pete  




Peter L. Roehrs
Patrol Captain NWest Zone R9
8901 Grand Ave Place
Duluth,MN 55808
Office: (218)626-4309
Cell: (414)232-4713
Fax: (218)626-4394
"The answer to every unasked question, is no"
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Pete,

  Thank you for a prompt response to my email.  I am sure that is exactly what Officer Johnson or Sheffer told you, however, there is absolutely no way that he could have gotten the impression you describe from my report to him.  They were firing at that site as I was exiting, as was explained to him.  There was absolutely enough time to show up to that site by canoe if necessary.  The first report of the incident was not followed up on.  I find it hard to believe that any positive results will result in a case not followed up on.  I realize manpower crunches in law enforcement can be a problem, it is the world we live in.  Who was the officer that took the complaint on Monday, possibly Sheffer?  I am pretty sure it was officer Johnson I spoke with. Either way, I really feel that the Forest Service did not do all that it could have. I believe that Monday's complaint should have been followed up on and I believe that my own complaint should have been followed up on.  Hiding behind a desk saying to your self "Gee, we are probably not gonna catch them" is not the way I would expect the Forest Service to prevent 1.)Fires 2.)repeat Basswood incidents and 3.)someone getting hurt by a stray bullet being fired in a reckless manner.  But thank you for your time following up on the matter.  I realize you are in Duluth and had no knowledge of the matter or anything to do with the ridiculous response.  Hopefully this can be a learning experience for us all.  

 Assuming the incident you reported was a valid one, I'm disappointed in the results of your reporting a serious safety violation.
 Even IF they perpetrators were gone when the Rangers arrived, you can't fire that many rounds without missing some fired brass, or the results of your target practice not being evident somewhere around the campsite.
 Brass would tell caliber, possibly make of weapon and unless they wore gloves, finger prints could be obtained.
 From you conversation, I think they just doubted the whole incident when you said you heard Automatic weapon fire? Too a person unfamiliar with firearms, a semi-auto ( you squeeze the trigger once for every shot fired) can sound like a Full Auto, if the person firing is proficient enough. They also make crank handle adapters that allow you too fire a semi-auto so fast, that they sound like full auto.
 However, if anyone has served in the military, or been exposed too gunfire from a nearby firing range, the sound of a semi-auto and full auto are much different once you've heard both a few times.
 I'm wondering if there wasn't something going on that for whatever reason the authorities wanted too keep under wraps?
 I'd like too see that campsite, there must be plenty of evidence waiting for the forensic guys IF any ever show up ?
I hope it doesn't take a fatality before its investigated and the facts made known.

 

Knowing this may be a touchy subject after the Basswood escapades (what, two(?) years ago now)---

I'm not up on MN or BW specific gun rules but as I understand it, discharging firearms is perfectly legal in the BW with certain distance and common sense restrictions. Is there a campfire size limit anyone knows of?

I agree people build scary large fires far too often and hearing lots o' gunfire wouldn't thrill me either so I don't blame you one bit for being POed about it but are either of these two things actually illegal? I'm wondering what you wanted/expected the Forest Service to do?

You could have paddled over the next morning and asked what dumb thing happened that made their fire so big last night... Oh and BTW...

From the view of my comfy chair they needed a talking to for sure. Maybe they just had no clue in which case you could have enlightened them a lot easier yourself.

That wilderness idea cuts both ways sometimes don't it?

Perhaps the gunfire you heard was perfectly legal fire, coming from private property?

Seems to me that the expectation of "non-offensive noise" is not enforceable.....otherwise I'd have ticketed those commercial airline pilots who fly over my camp daily.

FWIW....gunfire in the woods is pretty common in MN and often legal.  You want action....you gotta call the sheriff....then you need to convince them why they should come out to investigate.  Hearing gunfire alone (no matter how offensive to you), is no reason to investigate....IMO.

It could be just that, legal but annoying gunfire :-/
The Full Auto part, if true might be more the issue.
Its legal too possess full auto weapons with the right FFL, but I'm not sure if you can fire them just anyplace?

DB, was on too something. Although I'm not sure I would want too confront people about a campfire I had issue with, when they also were firing a lot of rounds, legal or not.
I would probably paddle over EARLY next morning and act like I was just cruising by and check out the situation. IF anyone was up, I'd act naive and say something like " Did you guys hear all those FIREWORKS last night?" I figure if their morons, they couldn't resist telling someone about the firepower they had with them, and if they were in the right, they would tell you as well.
 Then I would determine whether they were just unaware of the potential problems, fires and gunfire can cause, or just didn't give a damn?
From that I'd either try too "enlighten them", or paddle on, noting numbers of party/ canoe registrations, and any physical descriptions and report that too the rangers/police when I got out.
I might even ask too take a few pictures of "campsite" for personal reference.
I'm sure there is more too this story, time will tell?

well, after thinking about bumabu post,  my thoughts are that his main concern is that he thinks the USFS ought to have more law enforcement presence :question...I think that could be good or bad...depending on individual USFS personell ;) Personaly I don't mind the rangers stopping by my camp to check on the campsite condition and check permits and chat. Couple of my other thoughts are...he mentions hearing about 300 rounds in the course of 4 days.....sounds like conservitive use of fire arm,,if my math is right, that equals about 100 rounds per day....to me an automatic fire arm could burn thru that amount of ammo in a matter of seconds/minutes...if it were only one firearm insted of several which seems to be the case in his post.....if non fully auto, to me 100 rounds per day is still conservative fireing ...daylight this time of year has to be at least 10 or more hours a day witch could = only 10 rounds per hour, more or less....some may think the sound of gunfire is inconsiderate to fellow campers, but I don't know if silencers are legal, or work on automatic plinkers. Bumabu states he was subject to listening to this gunfire for 4 days :-?....I say self inflicted anoyence if he chose to remain camped nearby insted of moving along :question..leaves me to think he fully enjoyed the serenade of popping and banging ;D. Perhaps in the future a better choice of forest wilderness or a PARK that don't allow firearm use would be a better choice for his destination.  I'd have to check on the distance away from occupied space as required by the USFS to legaly fire, but I think it is 150 feet...not to far from the back of a campsite..a very short walk. As far as the campfire, I know I have a hard time judging the right size of someone elses fire as I don't know if a large warming fire is needed to dry clothes and wet campers , or if the blazing fire is the liteing to take photos to submit to web sites ,or if the fire lite is needed to iluminate books of poetery being read in a cozy camp....I prefer to think the campers knew what thy were doing (my rose colored glasses) 8-)   I do feel that if a river or lake was between me and another camper,, I wouldn't feel much endangered by the other campers nite campfire, (and I have seen and camped around a few very large wildfires) Wonder what bumabu would think of the lovely music presented by those hard working sled dogs in the winter ::) ;D.    The USFS has many ways to check out campers without the campers or complainers knowing that the checking has been done...there's one ranger behind every tree :o......don't you know.. :exclamation [smiley=thumbup.gif]

I 'll give it a few more years......and then we will alll wonder where our  freedoms have gone..... :-/ Well freedom is an illusion anyway....but in any case. I have had what I consider recreational fires, one on a week trip, for the boy.....clicked off some picts and called it good. Then I think of the recreational fire that a buddy has had and they have been the size of houses, note the plural. Some of the citizens of this fine country like to shoot.....go down to any county sheriff's office and ask about permits both 4 purchase and to carry and consider the ammo prices and you will be confronted with it. The right to bear and shoot are clearly covered in the laws of this land. If you did not like it and did not want to do anything about it, a very pervasent problem in this fine country, maybe intrusting the goverment to solve the problem is not the answer simply because it is a very expensive way to have one's way....and your way is not the only way to skin that kitty, Bumabu. Tolerance, reflection upon the law, moving campsites, all would have been possiblites and those are the ones that I am confronted with right now. Now I can understand being confronted with the sound of gun fire if one is not use to it. I can understand the strong desire to "protect" the land. I can understand your point of view ;) BUT sometimes  you have to know when to fold them and know when to walk away and trust that the professionals in government :) and tolerate the differences in humanity.


Disclaimer:I had a bad day yesterday!

100 rds is nothing....minimal fire to be sure.  Typical "shooting session" is several weapons...100 rds apiece.

Agree...it's not the Forest Service job to police this...it's the county sheriff.

Permit to Carry and Permit to Purchase handguns in MN is up by several 100's%.....IMO.  I posted a thread about ammo availability a few mo ago....it hasn't changed at all yet.  More people than ever are packing.  Bet you'd be suprised how many and who, once you started discussing it.  I was absolutly blown away to learn who's packing in my circle of contacts.

My source says there are over 61,000 registered permit holders in MN as of 4/30/09.

It's possible, rather than a fully automatic weapon, that they were using a .22 AR (.22 caliber rifle made to look like an automatic weapon or assault rifle) that was fitted with a trigger crank.

Picture an old gatling gun with a crank.  You can mount the crank on the trigger of a .22 AR to allow really quick sucessive trigger pulls.

Still though, doesn't make it any more comforting even assuming it was just a tricked out AR.

I'm going in up there in just a couple days.  Sounds like I may need more kevlar than just the canoe.

wally wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 3:23pm:

More people than ever are packing.  Bet you'd be suprised how many and who, once you started discussing it.  I was absolutly blown away to learn who's packing in my circle of contacts.

 Your dead on with that observation. The local county park that I hike in has a small lake that attracts a lot of wildlife, especially birds. I see and talk too many birdwatchers while exercising there.
One middle-age couple I see and talk too are perfect examples of Wally's observation. They know of my Q trips, and we've both been to Isle Royale more than a few times. Somewhere in our discussion of being solo or a couple in a remote setting, the subject of carrying firearms came up. This couple were very conservative, very soft-spoken.  When I mentioned that I carry where legal, they proceed too tell me they BOTH had CCW's, and then showed me their "iron" they had in their little waist packs ;D After further discussion they told me they ran a husband / wife dental practice and often worked late in the evening. He had been in the military, she never touched a gun until they took the CCW course. They both are law abiding, productive members of society, but I pity the fool who ever tries too rob or molest them ;)

I discussed BWCAW permits with a USFS offical today....it is stated on BWCA permits that firearms are allowed, and what type of use is considered non permissive......therefore every visitor to the BWCAW that is issued a permit should expect the chance of experienceing firearm useage or the sounds of it.....aparently those that fought so hard to create a wilderness ,and prohibit cutting of live vegetation, limiting abuse of the land by limiting party size, banning cans and bottles, designating campsites with firegrate and latrine, entry points and entry dates specified.....apparently thought firearms had a proper and necessary existance in the wilderness,,,,,after all....it is written in the permits, that it is O.K. :exclamation [smiley=thumbup.gif]how do you argue with that :question...you may not like it, but........that's the way it is :exclamation....oh yeah, doesn't the party leader have to sign the permit showing recognition of the rules and the agrement to abide by them.

Why..do...so...many...people...here...use... the ellipsis...incorrectly???   :o

I agree with  Bumabu about the Forest Service enforcement activities.  I called in a complaint that the people at the camp across the bay from me were singing "1000 bottles of beer on the wall" and there were still 581 bottles on the wall when I called.  Yet nothing happened!  Nobody bothered to paddle out and investigate??  They had some lame excuse about the activity I was complaining about being legal. >:(

Jiimaan wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:40am:

Why..do...so...many...people...here...use... the ellipsis...incorrectly???   :o

I would guess it's because they're no longer in English/Writing classes (or Language Arts as it's called these days).   ;)

You might not like or agree with what I'm about to comment, though I've noted...

In harsher climates the law is often allowed to be bent a bit more than in more benevolent areas.

Perhaps pervasive behavior as a sometimes needed survival mechanism, though sometimes abused.

It aint so civilized.

Theory related to a decade, plus, of observation of behaivior of Northern folk....self, more or less, inclusive.

k

Snow_Dog wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:55am:

Jiimaan wrote on Jun 4th, 2009 at 2:40am: Why..do...so...many...people...here...use... the ellipsis...incorrectly???   :o I would guess it's because they're no longer in English/Writing classes (or Language Arts as it's called these days).   ;)

ohhh! I understand, this must be an inner circle thought  :o
english has nothing to do with it; its how you hold the cigar your smoking around the large fire with a fine glass of scotch...gun optional.

//windsailor

BWCAW Rules and Regulations
The following are enforceable Forest Service regulations (maximum penalty of $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail).
Travel Permits
You must enter the BWCAW at the entry point and on the entry date shown on your permit.
You may not re-enter on a different date using the same permit.
Permit stubs become invalid when the group leader exits the wilderness.

Group Size
Nine (9) people and four (4) watercraft are the maximum allowed together in the wilderness.
You may not exceed the limit at any time or anywhere (on water, portages, campsites) in the BWCAW.
Smaller groups increase your wilderness experience and decrease the impacts.

Toilet Facilities & Water Quality
Use latrines at designated campsites.
Latrines are not garbage cans and should be used for the intended purpose only. Personal waste items such as cigarettes, cotton swabs, or plastic feminine products should always be packed out and should never go into the latrines.
If you're not near a latrine, dig a small hole 6 to 8 inches deep at least 150-200 feet or more back from the water's edge. When finished, fill hole and cover with needles and leaves.
Bathe and wash dishes at least 150-200 feet from lakes and streams.
All soaps pollute water including soaps labeled "biodegradable."

Containers
Cans and glass bottles are not allowed.
Containers of fuel, insect repellent, medicines, personal toilet articles, and other items that are not foods or beverages are the only cans and bottles you may keep in their original containers.
Food may be packaged in plastic containers that must be packed out with you.

Food and Fish Remains
Try to plan your meals so you don't have leftovers. If you do, pack them out.
Dispose of fish remains by traveling well away from campsites, trails, portages and shorelines.

Campfires
Fires are allowed within the steel fire grates at designated campsites or as specifically approved on your visitor’s permit.
Bringing a small camp stove may be a better idea because it heats food more quickly, has less impact than a fire, and comes in handy during rainy weather.
Due to the potential fire danger, fire restrictions may be put into effect. Check on current conditions just prior to your trip. You may be required to use a camp stove if there is a campfire restriction.
If you build a fire, burn only small diameter dead wood found lying on the ground. Do not burn trash.
Collect firewood away from campsites by paddling down the shore and walking into the woods where it is more abundant.
Wood easily broken by hand or cut with a small folding saw eliminates the need for an axe.
Drown your fire with water any time you are going to be away from your camp or at bedtime. Stir the ashes until they are cold to the touch with a bare hand.
Transporting wood from out of state is prohibited.

Campsites
All members of a permit group must camp together.
Camp only at Forest Service designated campsites that have steel fire grates and wilderness latrines.
Make camp early in the day to ensure finding an available campsite.
It is illegal to cut live vegetation for any reason.
You may camp up to fourteen (14) consecutive days on a specific site.

Storing Watercraft
Only watercraft and equipment used in connection with your current visit may be stored and left unattended.
All equipment and personal property must be carried out with you at the end of each trip.

Cultural Heritage
Leave archaeological, historical, and rock painting sites undisturbed.
The use of metal detectors is prohibited.

Firearms & Fireworks
Discharging a firearm is prohibited within 150 yards of a campsite, or occupied area, or in any manner or location that places people or property at risk of injury.
State game laws apply in the BWCAW.
Fireworks of any kind are illegal.

Pets
Dogs impact wildlife and barking intrudes on the experience of others. They must be under control at all times.
Dispose of fecal matter 150 feet from water sources, campsites, and portages, or deposit it in a latrine.

Motor-Powered Watercraft Regulations
Motor-powered watercraft are permitted only on the following designated lakes. All other lakes or portions of lakes within the BWCAW are paddle only. Motors may not be used or be in possession on any paddle-only lake. No other motorized or mechanized equipment (including pontoon boats, sailboats, sailboards) is allowed.


Lakes With 10 Horsepower Limit
On these lakes, the possession of one additional motor no greater than 6 horsepower is permitted, as long as motors in use do not exceed 10 horsepower. - Clearwater, North Fowl, South Fowl, Seagull (no motors generally west of Three Mile Island), sections of Island River within the BWCAW.

Lakes With 25 Horsepower Limit
On these lakes or portions of these lakes, the possession of one additional motor no greater than 10 horsepower is permitted, as long as motors in use do not exceed 25 horsepower:
- Basswood (except that portion north of Jackfish Bay and Washington Island), Saganaga (except that portion west of American Point), Fall, Newton, Moose, Newfound, Sucker, Snowbank, East Bearskin, South Farm, Trout.

Lakes With No Horsepower Limits
- Little Vermilion, Loon, Lac La Croix (not beyond the south end of Snow Bay in the U.S.A.), Loon River.

Portage Wheels
Mechanical assistance is only permitted over the following: International Boundary, Four-Mile Portage, Fall-Newton-Pipestone and Back Bay Portages into Basswood Lake, Prairie Portage, Vermilion-Trout Lake Portage.
Non-Profit Organizations
A group must have an official tax-exempt status to qualify as a non-profit organization. If your permit reservation is audited, your group must be able to produce a tax-exempt number. All the people on the trip, with the exception of a guide, must be associated with the non-profit organization. Non-profit organizations may reserve as many permits as they like. However, there is a limit of no more than three (3) permits within a permit season to be reserved under the name of any one non-profit organization name as the Organization name associated with the Permit. Additional permits can only be reserved under a specific person's name as group leader with no association to the Non-profit organization.
The only benefit to reserving a permit having an association to a non-profit organization's name is that the permit may then be issued to anyone who can prove affiliation with the organization in the same location. For example, if a permit is reserved with an association to Non-profit organization "Girl Scouts, Troop 16, Chicago" then anyone affiliated with that particular organization may have the permit issued to her/him. When reserving a permit associated with a non-profit organization, the non-profit organization's name, address and a contact person for the organization is required. The Customer profile must be under the contact person’s name and the organization under profile must be set to the Non-profit Organization. The representative of the non-profit organization that actually picks up the permit becomes the group leader, must remain with the group for the duration of the trip, and will be responsible to see that the group follows BWCAW regulations. Please contact the Forest Service office nearest your planned entry point for additional information about reserving permits planning for non-profit organizations.

BWCAW User Fees
User fees are required for all overnight visitors to the BWCAW between May 1 and September 30.


For all of you able to read, which doesn't look like is many, these are the rules and they were broken.  The very first thing the rules say is that they will be enforced by the FS.  What part of this are you guys not getting?

Here is a photo of the fire.       (You need to Login or Register

YOur point with citing the the reg. and the pict?  Hey wally-45 acp at gander in EP was $40/50...could not believe it...I saw 19.95 /50 1.5 monthes ago. Back to the firex2 gig. Here is a little story regarding enforcement...a little boy was being thumped on by his MOM, was vocalizing it, had bruises, and was an ongoing issue. The abuse laws (statues-written law) are crystal clear in the , as I have read them repeatedly. The abuse was of a felony level, based on what the law stated. I much dialod with the county juvi attorney, her boss ( the county attorney, repressentives for the sheriff's office (x2), and a few pita socal workers. Yep nothing happen....they did nothing...actually they refused...Said that their funding was to tight and they wanted to have a more "solid" case. Well the abuse continued until I made a stand...or maybe it was a threat...or maybe it was a more of a commentary upon the state of the state...so again B what was your rub with the gunfire and the fire....really? It appears to go beyond the simple aspect of the regulations-because they were not being shattered (reckless maybe)from the information that you have supplied here....mind you I was not there. :) Properness is in the eye of the beholder... ... ... ;)and there are a lot of different kinds of isms. ;)

The point iof the regs and photos was to prove my point that they were breaking rules and that it was the FS responsibility to deal with them, as both points were in question by the later and greater wisdom of the previous posters.  You could light up Vegas with the intellect flowing through this place.

To be honest with you, the gun fire was the lesser issue, as they were not deliberately trying to cause harm with it and likely would not have.  But I was under the impression that forest fires were unfavorable and costly, not to mention dangerous, and they were close to sparking a blaze in my opinion.  

Whatever, it is an under the rug issue at this point.  But dont pi$$ and moan when a fire starts and then have the balls to blame it on a tourist, maybe part of that blame should fall on the FS. >:(  

AH? we have run into the "wESTERN wAY" again...to solve the problem when it is a problem. Hasn't the guy that was said to have started the Hamm Lake fire been in Court and Sentenced. Fires are  a part of the natural system, we as humans have just turned it into something terrible...in our super intelligent heads. Of course the burning homes in the land of fruits and nutts assisted with this evolution. Sure fires are expensive if one puts them out, builds homes in ecosysytems that are fire driven, and for some I suppose that from an aethetic perspective they have a hard time with the carbon issue....But who of us even thinks about this when jumping in the car, bus, train ,plane, or whatever? I dont believe you B....what is the rub again anyway? A big campfire? Come on  :-? Pissed off at the forest service because you feel like they yanked your chain...did not do what U thought they should have done? Not being taken seriously? What is the issue? I am not trying to be an ass here....just curious...What is the real issue?

bumabu wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 11:29am:

....You could light up Vegas with the intellect flowing through this place.... But dont pi$$ and moan when a fire starts and then have the balls to blame it on a tourist, maybe part of that blame should fall on the FS. >:(

Bumabu,

I am sorry to hear you did not have a wonderful experience in the BW and that the USFS didn't respond to you the way you wanted.  I think the real issue here is subrogation of responsibility, something I find occurring with alarming frequency in this country.  You bring it up with your forest fire example.  Responsibility lies with the person who started the fire, left it unattended, and didn't drown it out, thereby recklessly endangering himself, others, property and the natural & cultural resources of the BW we all hold dear.  It's not the fault of the USFS.  Smoky Bear said, "Only YOU can prevent forest fires."

Back to your situation.  If I had a similar experience,  I would probably be annoyed at the interference with my tranquility & relaxation.  However, as MY enjoyment of MY trip is MY responsibility, I would have immediately tried to alter the experience, probably by leaving the vicinity as soon as possible, and found my spot of peace somewhere else.

Should the USFS have investigated more?  Possibly.  Depending on manpower and other events going on, your complaint may have very well warranted filing away, or an officer going to check out the site.  Regardless, this website, and its contributors are in no way responsible for your anger, frustration or enjoyment level of your trip.  Your comment regarding the intellectual value of contributors is neither appropriate nor useful in arguing your opinion, especially since you've been a member for only a week, joining for the sole purpose to complain about the USFS and a group across the lake, from what I can tell.

I appreciate discussions, different viewpoints, and being made aware of some specific issues/great things going on in the BW & Quet.  That's the purpose of this forum, and I thank you for your original & subsequent posts.  Just please keep off the personal attacks of people you haven't yet had the opportunity to meet.

Thanks,
J.J.

B,

If you are looking for concrete answers to your questions then you won't find them on QuietJourney or any other forum.  The best anyone here can do is guess at what the forest service and law enforcement was thinking in how they responded to your complaint.  The only people who can give you answers are the forest service and law enforcement and they have done so.  You clearly don't like their answers but no amount of complaining here on QJ is going to resolve the problem to your satisfaction.  As you see, members of this forum have a wide spectrum of views on the subject as you might expect.  We don't run a private club where membership is only allowed to those who think a certain way or have certain beliefs.

If you want guesses about why the authorities acted as they did, here are some guesses:

Maybe they did try to get a flight to the area in question, maybe they did not.  They say they did and it's up to you to either believe them or not.

Why did they not send in authorities by canoe?  My guess is they made a judgement call that they could not spare the manpower for the length of time such a trip would take without what they regarded as an unacceptable reduction of their ability to respond to other more potentially serious threats  during the duration of the trip.

How could they be sure that even if they showed up at that campsite that those same people would be there and what is the likelihood that they'd be able to do anything more than give a speech about wilderness ethics and safety?  To "catch them in the act" would require a stealth approach of camping nearby and observing for a minimum of one evening.

Also, this really comes down to your word vs. the party in question.  From your photo, it's impossible to judge if the fire was a hazard.  Clearly it's a possibility, but it's not a certainty.

It would be nice if the authorities up there had the resources to chase down incidents like this every time they received such a report.  The simple fact is, they don't.  You probably complain about your taxes the same as I do.  We all think we pay too much but then we scream bloody murder when our government is financially constrained from performing duties we feel need to be performed.  Can't have it both ways.  These guys are competing for the same dollars that also go towards education, national security, welfare, GM, bailouts for overleveraged risk-takers who endangered the very fabric of our economy, crumbling infrastructure, and on and on and on.  Every time choices are made about funding, there will be those who disagree with the choices made.

I....flunked 8th....grade.....english....I write like...this because....I like too.... ;D

9mm...6 boxes went home with me from WW last night....6 more remain...they will go home with me today...(daily 6 box limit)


Can't remeber the last time I've seen forrest service armed and ready to confront lawbreakers.  I've been under the naieve impression that they too would call the sheriff if a confrontation was going south.  Well, at least the forrest did not burn down!

Hamm lake dude...didn't he die prior to sentencing?

bumabu wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 9:21am:

For all of you able to read, which doesn't look like is many, these are the rules and they were broken.  The very first thing the rules say is that they will be enforced by the FS.  What part of this are you guys not getting?

I'm all for a spirited discussion of ANY topic, as long as people don't get into personal attacks. I responded in sympathy too your initial post, having no first hand knowledge of the event, I gave you the courtesy of taking your post as factual, or better still, the "facts" as YOU believe them too be.
 Other's saw things different or offered explanations for the events that triggered your post.
As other's have noted, the rules are ALWAYS open too the interpretation of the authorities.
I've called the local police with a noise complaint, only too have them tell me it didn't qualify as a arresting offense, the most they could do was ask them too voluntarily turn it down.
 One thing that most of us QJers agree on is that making personal attacks won't get you very far or make anyone more likely too agree with your opinion.
 Anytime you post here, especially when its a controversial topic, your going too get opinions reflecting the varied backgrounds and personal experiences of the people on this board.
 You want too get along here, you learn too argue the merits of the idea, NOT attack the individual who has a differing view.

Bumabu: thank you for posting what apears to be the current version of the rules on a BWCAW permit....I am more familar with the version of the BWCA permit that was issued roughly 35 years ago, back then there were only 10 basic rules to follow, and the explination of each was covered in a short sentence or less......now by what you posted, there seems to be roughly 18 or more rules the permit holder needs to be informed of?...Regardless, you state that the very 1st. thing the rules say is that they will be enforced by the USFS....well, I don't read it that way (The following are enforcable Forest Service Regulations, max penalty etc)....to me the judge, not the FS enforces the rules..the Fed judges have ruled many times against FS law enforcement violation notices :o and have ordered the FS lawmen to reverse their actions in favor of the accused.

then in your latter post you state that gunfire was a lesser issue, and they were not delibertly trying to cause harm, and likely would not have :question.....then what was your complaint about, and did not the USFS come to the same conclusion by your report and the previous one.

the photo you posted of the other campers fire shows what apears to be very little wind and a large percentage of cloud cover., high  relitive humidities, cool spring nite temps. and sparse available fuels....possiably indicating a remote chance of wildfire between the fire grate and the lake. Just to add substance to my thoughts of your not being endangered by wildfire, I checked with the USFS today on what the actual wildfire indicators were on the following dates

May 17th.....Low
May 18th.....Low
May 19th....Low
May 20 th....no log entry...(I asked why :question...explination = "musta rained")

so, based on fire behavior predictions combined with with actual fire weather observations and  measured field fuel moisture componets, I guess the Rangers figgured a wildfire was a slim chance?

BTW, I didn't see a designated campfire size indicated in the BW permit rules you posted......is that something I may have overlooked?

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06/04/2009 03:42AM
   
Ignorance knows no bounds, as some here have proved. And as for the QJ board, just publicizing this disgrace of forest police work, haven't checked back to read any replies.......but I will now. Let me go cause some havoc over there!

06/04/2009 04:31AM
   
What a bunch of heroes over there on QJ!!!!! "approach the campsite in early morning hours and start small talk and blah blah blah.....take pictures of interior of campsite blah blah blah" OK, let me go and rile the sleeping Taliban, dont think so, I dont pretend to be a tough guy.....like some.

Troll . . .  >:(

Your first posting on this matter was informative and interesting.  Too bad about the rest.

-YB

130 posts over there (so far).  Yikes!!  Now I know why I prefer a quiet journey.

I'll set the over/under line on QJ at 36 posts.  I'd set it lower but I'm sure Mr. Bumhole or whoever he is will have more inflammatory things to say and undoubtedly one or two people will rise to the bait.  Place your bets here!  I get 10% juice on all bets...no "post padding" allowed if you bet the over.

OK. It seems I'm one of those who can't read. Can someone please highlight the specific rules or regulations that were broken?



Quote:

You could have paddled over the next morning and asked what dumb thing happened that made their fire so big last night... Oh and BTW...

in no way leads to:


Quote:

What a bunch of heroes over there on QJ!!!!! "approach the campsite in early morning hours and start small talk [SNIP] ... blah blah blah ... rile the sleeping Taliban ... tough guy.....like some.

At least not in my world.


IMO - Let's ASSume Bumuba simply invented the 'early' and 'rile' adjectives to forward a personal whine objective that doesn't seem to interest enough visitors of the usual forums. Credibility remains rather important here. Brevity, well ... Since it looks like a complete list, maybe I can repurpose the effort.


BTW - As someone who uses these puppies to an extreme... ... - correct me --- dumb down the rules if you must ... show me a better way... I'm here to learn and do gooder.   ;D Nah, seriously!

Oh, Snow_Dog, I am so hoping that you are correct.  He stirred up a hornet's nest on bwca.com, and it deteriorated into name-calling and nastiness.  He is looking for someone to agree with him.  But if they don't, then he reacts by insulting their intelligence and their character.  

Troll?  Maybe.  He came here to "cause some havoc".  He says so.  

I think Yellowbird said it all.   

I hope this wasn't a "padding".  I'll take "under".  I hope we'll just let this die a natural death.  

That is why I was asking what HIS problem was...just did not seem like it was the stuff that happened in the triangle...seemed way bigger. :o

db ; "BTW - As someone who uses these puppies to an extreme... ... - correct me --- dumb down the rules if you must ... show me a better way..."

I'll be glad to help.  A simple sentence contains a verb and a subject.  The vast majority of properly designed sentences will end with a period.  If you wish to connect two related but separate sentences, a semi-colon(;) is the proper tool; use them sparingly.

The ellipsis is used to indicate missing words.  They are usually used in a quote: "BTW - As someone who uses these puppies to an extreme...show me a better way...."  It the missing words at the end of the sentence, use four periods; it they are missing from the middle of the sentence, use three.

Good luck.  I'll be keeping an eye on your progress. :o

EXPOSED!

Thanks for wasting my time Bamabu.  >:(  I really enjoy conversations on Wilderness ethics and the proper response to the situations we face.  Your posting on the BWCA board, however, shows your intent and your disregard for meaniful conversation.  While I may not agree with either end of this conversation, I am dissapointed that the intent was to cause "havoc."  

That being said, I will no longer read your posts.  You have lost all credibility!

Jiimaan wrote on Jun 5^th, 2009 at 1:00pm:

db ; "BTW - As someone who uses these puppies to an extreme... ... - correct me --- dumb down the rules if you must ... show me a better way..." I'll be glad to help.  A simple sentence contains a verb and a subject.  The vast majority of properly designed sentences will end with a period.  If you wish to connect two related but separate sentences, a semi-colon(;) is the proper tool; use them sparingly. The ellipsis is used to indicate missing words.  They are usually used in a quote: "BTW - As someone who uses these puppies to an extreme...show me a better way...."  It the missing words at the end of the sentence, use four periods; it they are missing from the middle of the sentence, use three. Good luck.  I'll be keeping an eye on your progress. :o

That is a fairly limited view of the use of an ellipsis. It can also be used in situations where an em dash would typically be used. For example: it can be used as an aposiopesis (i.e. at the end of a sentence trailing off into silence). It is also commonly used as a pause in the sentence.

Oh my.

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---

I think they should have just stuck with the painted flames...

I like to use them....to connect incomplete thoughts....or mutterings.  Four dots....is serious...three is less so......but six, means I'm pondering hard.  Anyway...that's how I learnt it...

Love this place...learn something everyday....and ellipsis 'eh?  wiki (for what it's worth....says my use is legit as well....)
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"What a bunch of heroes over there on QJ!!!!! "approach the campsite in early morning hours and start small talk and blah blah blah.....take pictures of interior of campsite blah blah blah" OK, let me go and rile the sleeping Taliban, dont think so, I dont pretend to be a tough guy.....like some."

As the author of that post, I accept the "tough guy" moniker and ANYTHING that riles the Taliban, I consider my patriotic duty ;)
I've found that when dealing with Officials of any kind, you better have your ducks in a row. Pictures are worth a thousand words. First hand observation can be enlightening as well. You can approach ANYONE, if you do it in the right way. For starters you gain their empathy, not insult them :(
 The whole episode boils down too your word against the purported violators. The FS heard you out and made a judgment call.
 HAVOC is a two-way street, your busted and any credibility you had is down the crapper!

Well, as far as the campfire thing, Akulas photo of the truck fire prompts me to post a photo my daughter took in 2007 while on a camping trip she took with me in the hills of Montana. We spent long days in grass meadows among lovely pine stands, and at nights sometimes the sky would clear and all the stars in heaven could be seen.....but mostly our night skies and campsites were illuminated by the warm glow of the fire.

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Yellowbird,
Isn't that what you'd call a YOOPER bonfire ;D

solotripper: I'm attaching another photo........one that I took of my daughter taking a photo. I am the owner/ opperator of a small business that  specializes in emergency responce at the National level.  Earthquake, floods hurricane, volcanos , wind storms and wildfire is the typical stuff we respond to when disaters are of significant size to overwhelm the Government Agencies available resources and additional help is needed to manage the situation. Formal classroom and field training is required and certificates certifying my qualifications and those employed by me are required. Both my son and daughter have worked with me in the past as well as other young men and women with an intrest in this type of work.....something not everyone is cut out for. The other fellow in the attached photo volunteers his time to teach youth firearm safety programs, snomobile and atv saftey courses. He is also an 20+year ex voluenteer fireman and a verteran of the U.S Army airborn division. As a result of my children working with me and other "rough neck" types ,My daughter is persuing a career in wildfire management, and my son presently is a volunteer fireman on our local dept. and is persuing membership on the county sheriffs search and rescue team. Solo, your taglines by Churchill and Orwell are ones that I hope some of my neighbors will read and consider when they refer to some of us people as gun toting,beer drinking, pickup truck driving rednecks.......I kindly ask those neighbors  "When the chips are down and the BIG AX falls"..........."Who you gonna call?" ;)

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Riversend,
Thanks for that.
I have friends that seem too think that the military/police and any organization that wears a uniform or demands teamwork and self sacrifice is THE PROBLEM, not the SOLUTION :(
While diplomcy certainly has its place, when the chips are down here or abroad, and your (_*_) is on the line, WHO would your rather have deciding your fate, some bureaucrat/diplomat who talks in circles, or a Fire Rescue/Swat team, or a company of US Marines coming too the rescue ;)
 I suspect my friends would concede that talk is cheap, action takes commitment!

solotripper wrote on Jun 6^th, 2009 at 4:26pm:

Yellowbird, Isn't that what you'd call a YOOPER bonfire ;D

Solo, You could say that, but only when having free access to someone else's woodpile.  I peared out my window one night at 2:30 am to see my neighbor having a party around an 8' fire.  Guess where they got the wood?  In the morning came first denials and then profuse apologies.

-YB

 There had too be booze involved, that's the only way they could of THOUGHT you wouldn't notice ;D

I don't get this, Bum had a bad experience with reckless behavior and so many couldn't wait ti jump on him.  They did not have to put up with the situation that he did.  On the other site I saw a post where a fellow was asking about taking a very quiet Martin packpacker guitar and if by rare chance anyone would hear it would it be a problem.  Once again so many could not wait to jump all over him, without even ever have had the situation to confront themselves.  My my how important do we all really think our nonthinking opinions are worth.  I used to be nice and helpful to fellow canoeists seems so many of us are narrow thinking brainwashed fools who are just waiting for the chance to berate someone.  This is what our society has become? May God helps us.  Good bye.

I think your missing something?
He reported an incident, in his opinion, rules were violated.
As in any situation like this, it becomes his word against theirs.
I was sympathetic at first, giving him the benefit of the doubt.
If it would of been me, I would of gotten some more evidence too bolster my case. He made my suggestions a macho joke, that was not my intent. I never suggested he confront them in a hostile manner.
But he could of paddled by, maybe said hello, or just observed how many were camped or if they had canoes with Outfitter Logo's.
The FS didn't find merit in his case, and others had different interpretations of what he purportedly saw and heard.
His fire pic was hardly conclusive, the fire ban was low at that time, and one pic of a flaring campfire hardly proves your case.
His story went off the tracks when he started the name calling and his post on another site about raising HAVOC here, proved he was more interested in being "right" than hearing any other possible explanations for what took place.
 I think were very helpful too fellow canoeist's, but when you post anything on-line as an absolute, you better be prepared for challenges too your view.  I would say that taking him at his word and joining HIS rant, without question is being a brainwashed fool, not offering explanations or different views of the situation.

bumabu wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 11:29am:

The point iof the regs and photos was to prove my point that they were breaking rules and that it was the FS responsibility to deal with them, as both points were in question by the later and greater wisdom of the previous posters.  You could light up Vegas with the intellect flowing through this place. To be honest with you, the gun fire was the lesser issue, as they were not deliberately trying to cause harm with it and likely would not have.   But I was under the impression that forest fires were unfavorable and costly, not to mention dangerous, and they were close to sparking a blaze in my opinion

larry_brandes: I've highlited in yellow the Bums post.  If there is no concern or issue of danger, what was the main complaint/issue by Bum?  To my knowlege the USFS does not fly and land float planes into wilderness areas unless there is an emergency....where is Bums emergency :question If the USFS does fly and land with in the airspace restriction zone with no emergency, then the agency has to answer to someone WHY it was done :exclamation. The USFS follows mostly the same rules as everyone else. How many
other campers for miles around would be impacted by noisey aircraft landing , then taxi[ing]and lifting off again? Would they be "FRIGHTENED" as easily as the BUM?, by something they don't understand?
In the red I've highlited a second of the BUMS issue with forest fire.....a very respectable issue to be concerned with. I for one have spent a lifetime dealing with the dangers and issues resulting from a careless campers fire, or a lightning strike that is allowed to burn, or a management ignited fire that goes out of prescription. I am somewhat familiar with the task of "sizing up" a fire and the process of "putting it to bed" Please don't think I'm jumping on the BUMS case, but rather . offering some helpful information so that the BUM may too be able to travel the wilderness in a realistic frame of mind. Did you know that in "low" fire danger conditions that the USFS fire crews paddle themselves and all required gear to a wilderness fire? or that even in higher fire danger conditions, once the fire is declared controlled by the Incident Commander (fire boss) and the "emergency" is over, all gear must be removed by primitive means such as pack, paddle and portage :question This can be quite a monumental task at times.

Aircraft flight into remote settings and landing in unimproved areas present risk to those in the aircraft and those near the landing zones. Risk management policies include some of the following guidelines to prevent death and destruction;
#1...is this flight necessary ..(no emergency ?)
#2...who is in charge..(BUM, or the agency?)
#3 should you stop the flight due to change in conditions?....(weather)
#4 Is there a better way to do it?  .....(paddle)
#5 Can you justify your actions....(ummm, probely not)
#6 Do you have an escape route...
#7 are there any rules being broken?...(no, not likely, unless you   consider flying into a restricted area with no good reason ::))
#8 Are communications getting tense?
#9 Are you deviating from the assigned operation or flight?

to me,looks like the agent in charge made calls based on the best info provided.

larrey_brandes: I would like to add very much more, but I think the sour grapes that makes your whine so sweetly enjoyable to my palet may impare both our abillites to communicate, other than on a level that would give pleasure only to me......other than that, did you ever consider that the Bum may have only heard a grouse "drumming"  :question

Well, hope you enjoy the journey......I know I do 8-)


[edit]I adjusted the quote tags separating the quote from comments about it ~db[/edit]

I for one can see who has the wisdom of fighting fire for many years ;) I also clearly understand that you can keep some of the people happy some of the time but it is a feat to keep all the people happy all of the time....and if a person wants to be unhappy then they are and that's it...That's enough of this now ! and a BON VOYAGE to ALL ;)

Last summer, California was burnin,.......we headed out to North Cal. for our assignment to the Alpine Alps wilderness in the Shasta Trinity National Forest. As aircraft was priority to structure protection, and  smoked in wilderness was low on the resource protection list ,traditional methods were used.

In the attached photo, the lead mule skinner was in his mid 70's and the last thing he did before mounting up was to check the chambers and strap his iron on.....the "Duke" had nothing up on this Honcho,...the young buck-a-roo  riding drag was 50 years his junior and followed his lead......yes, I have  faith in the younger generation :) 8-)

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Guy's like him don't need no stinking " Man Card" ;)
Seriously, mid 70's and still riding saddle in hostile conditions!
They don't make them like that anymore  :(

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The man is dead. Let his memory rest in peace. He did some   (You need to Login or Register before my time until (cough) the anti smoking ones I remember (cough cough). We had a party line then so I'll assume touch-tone hell was just a twinkle.... ...draped in a flag ... arrgh.

Thanks for the way OT vent. Carry on ...  ;)

My favorite box of .45 colt.  They're a bit pricey.  Love the pic solo.  There's a load of good Wayne stuff on the web.  I don't know much about his personal life,  but I absolutly love the characters he played out.  That's whats wrong with todays culture (IMO)....attitude like his is often needed.

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