Well here we go....

Some of this should produce lively conversation/dialog....with that and this said I was cautioned by a good friend that one can't cure ignorance...my spelling will attest to this fact...and really trully I am not even going to attempt to cure anything... it is just a story that will in time segway to the, I hope, exchange of knowledge and not the passing of judgement on anyone or anything...and foreshadow a trip report by my son and myself....it is just a story....so please no one get hot under the collar ;)

Tuesday afternoon-7/28/09 approx. 3:15pm.....
The boy(8 yrs old) and I where on the 105 rod portage from Alpine into Sea Gull, on the Sea Gull side-eating a bit and waiting for the rain to slow a bit before we finished up our trip-low 60's-high 50's-windy/good surf-and raining. We had a group of three come upon us and were oozing a major vibe of panic.... Well the long and the short of is that( as I am a bit pressed for time) one of their party had broken their leg! When I expressed my background in some detail...a decision was make, on my part, to go back and assist them with situation....When I got there I found a group in in cotton, wet, with many hypothermic, and UTTERLY unprepared for the most part....The injured party was on medication that was not hers, wet, and had blue lips and was shivering....not to metion a busted leg-tiba fracture! Wow-well that was them anywayz! My eight yr old had the where with all to convey this to a party of 3 awesome forest service workers...he was on the portage with one of the adult party(injured party) members-they were actually all adults in my mine set...well sort of! The long and the short of it was that we got her out-after I splitted her leg, worked on the hypotherma issue of some of there party members, got their group together with a plan, got assitance from the forest service workers with the extrication from the island on alpine...and did the hobble and life jacket buggy carry across the 105, arrange for a motorized portage from the south side of three mile island...etc, etc, etc....

Not one of there party of thirteen had decent visible rain gear, all were in cotton and wet, there was one goose down sleeping bag...one synthetic bag...otherwise the all had cotton cabin bags...life jackets were optional....am I painting the picture?

I will leave with these closing thoughts...Thank you Sea Gull Canoe Outfitters for the donation of the wet portage boat...Thank you Forest Service trail maintenance group-you are great people! Ian that "tack" brace was the bomb, U will be forever known to me as Captain Braceman!I am trully glad Mick and I were there to help you Church Group folks with the situation. D I hope that you work through the rehabit issues and the surgery with courage and perserverance; and You get back on the horse that bucked ya off...and get a good pair of boots-2 all-b4 the next trip a long with a bunch of other gear!

In addition....I am confronted once again with the concept of Wilderness and what it means?

Well that's a start...got a date...got to go

M

The Good Lord truly does look out for drunks and fools :o
I've been with or ran into maybe a few individuals in a large party that were suffering from being ill-equipped and not prepared like the others, but too have so many in one group, boggles the mind.
 It's hard too even know where too lay the blame for so many being un-prepared. I guess you would start with the Outfitter IF they used one, then the trip leader and work down from there.
 With all the resources available here and on other forums, even a rookie can learn from others, at least in the importance of proper gear.
 Kudos too you and the other's who saved their bacon.
I bet your 8 year old had a "take" on the situation.
Not many 8 year olds would have the composure to be helpful in a situation like this!
 You've done a good job with the boy, he's young but "seasoned" ;)
 

Oh man, that sucks all the way around except for perhaps the 8 yr old. All trips seem to have ended on a sour note except maybe his. Lively discussions happen when "it could never happen to me" or you put a better bullseye on it. This, on the other hand, could happen to any of us - any trip.

I see two things here. Cotton kills and be prepared. Well, cotton doesn't kill and being prepared, well, that's a nebulous thing. I wear cotton all the time and even sleep in it wet. My very first trip was with jeans, tennies, and a Sears cotton (huge) bag ... shivered most of my ass off and got soaked but nothing got broken. Cotton works for me these days (not jeans though) and the degree of wet is in the eye of the beholder, adjusted by season. I've seen people in hefty bags having a great time surfing - I tend to look the other way. Breaking a leg? That's nearing slow death to me.

I'm surprised they didn't have one or two canoes haul her out or simply (quicker) go for help so close. What? No one snuck a phone in?

Theater people say "break a leg" as in 'good luck" (JW Booth). Somehow I think we should do that too. I see first solo trips way more than I'd like to 'cause it's stupid when you get right down to it - yet it happens more and more often. Had one person not been unfortunate enough to break something, they'd have all probably had a great trip. Shit happens. The really unfortunate (for you) and fortunate (for her) thing is the ~14th person was the one with the "ah crap, now what" improv.

Safety in numbers? To me, numbers simply add risk. Hey, be careful out there.

Its been a while, but I remember lining by boat up that rapid walking ahead of it, at least part of the way.  Marlin please refresh my memory, could this have been an option for the group, putting the injured person in an empty canoe and walking it down through the rapid?

-YB

YB-thought about the rapid thing-did it some 15 years ago and blew my knee then...and wanted to get it done and I thought that adding more more paddle time with the winds that where with us that day the process would be slowed.

DB-They were going for help-one of the first things that I did after I got the backround info was to look at my watch and do the math...my believe was that she would probably be there over night if we had done it that way...been there and done that and the outcome was not good...it was bad bad out come! I was concerned about shock B4 I even saw her. The group would have been in better shape with Hefty bags! I did not have cell phone coverage at trails end...but that gets us into the query-What is wilderness? Totally get the numbers gig-we are trully the variable in life....The improv thing is a blessing and I know it is there for me...that is why I am glad I was there for them...some got panic I got clarity but the thing of it is I still dropped the ball on the back side of the evac. Our group got split coming across Seagull-I should have insisted on pulling the forest service folks and myself in the sterns and them in the bows-I was fool for that! I should have also done a better job with D and maintained the level of care until that was taken over by folks at the GM hospital! My bad! She was shocky and quiet-at least that was my take...I was exhausted which is a poor excuse.

Solo-If I cant cure stupid...why should a outfitter be held accountable too...I have over heard folks-outfitters included-with there thoughs about my travels in the wilderness with my boy...he started at 2.In fact we were told to stay of the "big water"...sound advice for a "novice"...sound advice in bad weather...sound advice for weak paddlers...Heck it is a good piece of advice and the choice is up to me and my judgment...right. Mick shared the info with the rangers when the daughter began to cry! In this case I would start with the trip leader for sure-I am commited to not passing judgment in this situation...boy it is really tough not to say more in this case!

So wilderness-what is it to you folks?

It is amazing how many people just don't get that an ambulance isn't 15 minutes away.  I guess it's good that we take that for granted at home & work, because it means that EMS is available and pretty darn dependable.  Some people just can't seem to figure out their surroundings and don't stop to think, "Gee, I'm going someplace where proper medical attention may be at least 24 hours away." Marlin, I'm glad you and crew were there to assist.

Regardless of planning, sometimes **it hits the fan.  Oh, and if you completely destroy an ankle in a fall, I recommend tent poles & duct tape and lots of pain killer.  Worked for me.

 marlin55388,

I agree, you can't fix stupid!
However you don't have too abet it either.
IMHO, an outfitter has a moral obligation even if only renting a canoe, to do a cursory check on the equipment or lack of.
  Even if they have the group leader(s) read over a recommended gear list.
 I ran into 2 young German students ( guy/gal) the first year I tried going solo. It was in Algonquin Park.
Compared too the Q/BW, it's so well used, that ALL the portages/campsites are marked with big orange markers on posts.
Visible clear across even the biggest lakes.
Still it has enough "wild" that you can get hurt or lose your life.
Bears there are acclimated too the "day" paddlers, and it's such a problem, they have a full time crew cleaning campsites and portages.
I encountered the 2 visitors on a portage in the interior of park. Here they come down the trail, he was carrying the canoe, she was carrying 2 garbage bags with their 2 sleeping bags, NO tent/tarp, and their FOOD consisted of of 2/3 loaves of bread and a big jar of peanut butter!
 No rain/bug/first-aid gear of any kind. NO compass and only a cheap Outfitter map/brochure for guidance.
HE walked right passed me ( a guy thing) SHE dropped the bags and had tears in her eyes as she approached!
She spoke a little English, I was married too a German gal for awhile, so we made do. She called her boyfriend back, and made him show me their "map". I pointed to the outfitter lake and then pointed to where we were then. Turns out he was reading map UPSIDE down, and had NO clue. For the last 2 days, they had been going deeper into park, instead of coming out. They also thought they were on a lake/portage 2 lakes over!
I got a magic marker and zip lock bag and marked their exit course. I also gave them some extra rope and got them too understand they should hang their "food" at night. I also took note of canoe outfitter logo, it was from the entry point I came in on.
When I got back, I loaded my gear and rental canoe from another outfitter, and went up to the outfitting shack.
I told them what I had run into and they found the Germans on the rental roster. The manager was very upset and said that they try hard not too let things like that happen. Busy season/time, some newbie worker didn't think too ask ANY questions or at least have the experience too know they should.
 I didn't make a federal case out of it, he seemed sincere, and I had made my point.
 I don't understand very much German, but being an EX, I do remember the cuss words ;) As I moved on, I'm pretty sure the young Fraulein was using some choice one's toward her inept boyfriend ;D

Brings to mind a saying another tripper repeated often.

"If you're going to be stupid, you better be tough."

Hey JJ-if I would have had my packs with me ....I would have used the foam back insert from inside the pack and para cord....but alas I ended up using a root section from a blow down and the dry line(kite string) that their group had along with one of their soaked cotton sweat shirts....improvise! Circulation is easier to access than with duct tape. NOLS has a great wilderness medicine publication.

I believe that they were ignorant....due to their lack of experience and fore thought----if they did it again! Oh s@#$ then they would be stupid and my impression was that the came with their own gear as they seemed to be really proud of their score of used Al "boy scout" canoes....But that opens again the debate or rather the issue of responsibility. Maybe it should have fallen on the synod office....or the pastor himself....Been though this all before within the YMCA....Ergo my queiry about responsibilities and the question in regard to "WILDERNESS". I had some interesting discussions with certain folks about evacs. in the BWCAW during this experience. How can you make a person more responsible? U cant with out policy changes! Oh boy and that is another whole can of worms. In a nut shell the cards all landed in the right fashion for this group to have this happen the way that it did. Still wonder how D is doing however...I surmise the injury will hobbler her for life; unless she really evolves-and I hope she does as I hope their group and policies do. If they dont and continue to do this annual trip the way that they do they should seriously have their heads examined! The whole thing makes me wonder too what is the price tag for the forest service and other supporting offices for search and rescue..."Cant bar anyone" how about educated them.... ;) I'm still amazed by what I saw when I hit that island, but I am experienced enough to know that anything can happen-but I will say that I am suprized that it didn't happen for this group many years ago during this annual trip. "Dont trust wet rock"-I am sure that Mickey is so sick of hearing this! ;D 2 BAD ;D  

I witness recently a whole family-grandpa to grand children-hike back to the Beartooth Hwy in a thunderstorm at about 10,800 ft. My girl friend still gives me a hard time for giving the group a piece of my mind-2 BAD! share the knowledge....Thanks to all for this web site-educate them....educate myself! ;)

solotripper wrote on Jul 30^th, 2009 at 11:19pm:

It's hard too even know where too lay the blame for so many being un-prepared. I guess you would start with the Outfitter IF they used one, then the trip leader and work down from there.

I don't think you could blame an outfitter for that mess.  They shouldn't ever knowingly send out a woefully unprepared group without first trying to convince them of what they really need, but different people have different ideas about what they consider necessities.

I would hope that most outfitters take an active role in trying to make sure that groups (that partial outfit) are properly geared up.  If they convince a group to rent a few more items it's good for their business, and it's good for the group.  I would also hope that they'd give them a list of recommended pre trip reading.

All of us take some risks we feel we can afford. Pushing for pain. Pulling for pleasure. The goal here on QJ is no regrets and nudges as opposed to knocks on the door. Sometimes you can't look the other way.

Hut!    Hut!

This has been a very interesting thread to read.  I had missed it, and then because of the reference on db's "wilderness" thread, I was directed over here this morning.  

We all hope and pray that we won't have an accident/injury on a trip and need evacuation.  And I think most of us are woefully unprepared for that possibility--I know WE are and we have been going to the BWCA (even the Q back a couple of decades ago) since 1971!  In our case we  have advancing age to deal with and a myriad of physical limitations as well, so we are what you might consider "high-risk".  And we still go, and we still take chances.  That could be considered foolish; I know some of our family and friends would say so.

And I do think a church group (or a scout group or any group that is taking kids/teenagers) has a responsibility to be well-versed in first aid procedures and knowledgeable about appropriate clothing and gear.  Rain gear is an absolute must, obviously!

Having said that, however:

Many people never use an outfitter.  We have never used an outfitter in 38 years of canoe-tripping except for renting one aluminum canoe and a couple of packs for our very first trip!  That first trip was a nightmare by today's standards--we didn't any of the "stuff" that everyone considers necessities "nowadays"  (egads--I sound like an old lady, don't I?)--we had a canvas tent, cotton flannel sleeping bags we borrowed from a friend, blow-up air mattresses like you used in a swimming pool that held air until about the third day, jeans and cotton sweatshirts, ponchos, and our duffle was an old army duffle bag.  No stove, no sunscreen, no headlamp, no nalgene, no water filter.  

The only holdouts from those days--we still use our old Duluth pack purchased used from Canadian Waters in 1971, and Neil still trips in tennis shoes!   ;D

I am glad for my Gore-tex rain gear, my hiking boots, my SeaLine dry bags, and my Katadyn filter.  I don't wear jeans anymore and wouldn't give up my sleeping pad and bag for the "old days".

But I think it might be unreasonable to assume that everyone uses an outfitter, or that everyone needs to have the same gear that we all consider necessary in order to do a wilderness trip.

People have to take responsibility for their own decisions and live with the consequences.  Harsh as that sounds, if it is even a stab at "wilderness", that is the bottom line.  I pray if I ever have to deal with a serious crisis that I have someone like marlin55388 around, but the liklihood of that happening is remote, isn't it?  

They were fortunate, indeed.  Hopefully they learned from the experience. That is all any of us can hope for.

Great Thread!

What did the group really pay for?  No one held them accountable for breaking not only the rules of the park but the rules of common sense that keep people alive.  Thanks only to a few people for once again saving the lives of the ignorant.  

Too often I read about Marlin55388 saving those less fortunate or unprepared and I cannot help but think the other way.  If more people had to pay the real expense (not talking money here) of their own mistakes than maybe the Q and BW would be more of a wilderness.  How much time and money do we waste taking care of people who do not belong rather than just saying "NO" this is not for you.  I read this and I see law suit or worse.  

The blowdown stories are an exception and example of the risks we take to enjoy something special and extraordinary; sleeping below a widow-maker or carelessly disregarding mother nature is like buying a ticket for the Darwin Awards.  

Kudos marlin55388 for taking care of those in need.  

To all....I suppose that I have been doing the outdoors to some degree for all of my life...gardening, car camping, birding and botany, remote alpine and desert trips, paddling(all sorts) and the like. The endeavor has taught tons and enriched my life (and I hope the lives around me) in amazing ways-and I hope will do so for the rest of my life. The seagull/alpine escapade was the sixth "remote" evac. that I have been involved with to some degree-This doesn't included the car wrecks, arrests, and the like when I have to be a "city-ot"...I am struck once again with the quote of a canoe guide( check their website as it was recently posted), which worked for Sawbill Canoe Outfitters-I think it went something like this..."expect the unexpected"-been there for years...at least I think I have. No, I am reminded, that this is a hazardous space to be in-experience driven complascentcy -and this last evac. and my stumbling at the end will attest to that fact. So I continually reflect on "the expecting anything" not in the front of my mind...however. It is true that one doesn't need all the fancy dancy "gear" to experience "wilderness"...the dialog on the POD will attest to that...I think. BUt dang it...when the s#$% hits fan and the bacon is on the line( have no doubt it will sooner or later)-there may not be the serendipity in the situation to salvage it-and that is a pickle that bites-not the individual-but their loved ones-been there and done that too. So here I am having pulled multiple routes with just my son and myself-some "remote" with a poorly functioning sat phone and some busy as h#ll without the electronics...let me tell yah ...I am thinking seriously about a spot locator and going back to the remote loops after reading an article in the last BW/J and our Knife lake adventure. Ergo the inquiry regarding wilderness...Lord knows I dont want to shut the door for my son as it has given me so much...follow. The thing that I am confronted with is my definition of wilderness and how that is completed for me via independence on one facet; one of many..."If you make a mistake out here U own it". So ergo the querry regarding "wilderness"-as I know that I can learn something from all of you ;D

SO here it is again...."What is wilderness to you?"

NOw on the recent dialog in regard to Outfitters and their roll. Well, if I were one which I am not-have guided however. "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink" The outfitters are the outfitters that's it....one layer in the nebulous system... but the final responsibility falls where it would on trail on the group or  finally on the individual...and I will leave it at that for myself ;) Heck this is a whole nother situation when one considers the Forest Service and there roll. Not trying to make waves here...folks doing evacs. should have more than basic first aide for so many reasons-I am glad they have basic first aide...but I would from my humble experiences say that that is basic and not best...and I am thinking about not only the patrons of the park-dysfunctional and functional-but also the workers and their future health. Maybe another step would be to convey the whole concept of "remoteness" and the like during the permitting process, maybe trough stories even....Lord knows rules and regulations occur in grosses these days as do nosy over baring self-riteous people that don't have a clue!-so I am mindful...of that. But wilderness is not evacs. for me, but " half baked catastrophy" nor is half burnt tin foil or 100's of yards of discarded mono....that's just me and who am I to attempt to get U imbibe my pond water. ;) Take what you want and leave the rest!  And for posterity I know my spelling sucks! :)

Those are very appropriate and interesting comments, travelinman.  And as one of those people who may not "belong" anymore, I will tell you this:  I am well aware of my limitations.  And if I have a crisis and someone is there who is willing to help me, I will ask.  But if no one is willing or able to help, or if no one is available, I am completely OK with accepting the consequences of what happens to me and my partner as we try to work it out on our own.  And I won't sue anyone, ever!

The expectation of rescue in the BWCA or the Q is not a reasonable one.  If it happens, I would be thankful.  If not, I guess I would try to do my best to accept the situation and deal with it the best I could.

If I die in the canoe country, or if Spartan1 does, God forbid, we will be in the place where we want to be.  And no one will be responsible for us being there other than ourselves.  

Now it is different with a church or scout group that is relying on leadership.  That leadership should be prepared to provide safety (PFD's, appropriate clothing choices, gear, first aid supplies, etc.) and at least a reasonable amount of backwoods wisdom before bringing a group of young people on a trip.  And of course the group should be within the size limits of park rules.

I agree, this is a good thread. Lots of food for thought here.

Well said Lynda (SP2).
You and Neil "belong" because you do know your "limitations".
Of course we all could run into violent weather/lightning strikes, things we really have NO control over, but the vast MAJORITY of accidents ANYWHERE are the result of poor planning or not knowing your capabilities.
 I cringe every time I read a story about people who have the cash to pay for exotic but dangerous adventure trips in remote areas of the globe. They don't have the skills but find some outfitter/guide, who's willing to take them for the right price. We all have too learn somehow, but it seems nowadays a lot of people think having the means too do "something" is the same as having the "skills" Common sense tells you to ease into new situations, ego and pride tells you to jump-in and let someone else bail you out when you crash and burn >:(
 When disaster strikes, often by their OWN hand, and the guide can't save them all, they fully expect others too risk their life's to save them, with little regard to the "rescuers" life and limb. I think it's a sense of "entitlement" that many nowadays seem too have :(
 Too me a "wilderness" trip is ANYWHERE that gives a reasonable chance of ME being put into a death/serious injury position, and ME being the ONE who will make it or not based on my abilities and will too survive.
I would GLADLY accept help, but I damn sure don't count on it or feel that other's should be put in harms way because I made foolish decisions.
I get Travelinman's comments. I don't say let them "die", but when the situation is self inflicted, they should at least pay any financial cost the rescue accrues.
We ALL have too make our own decisions on how much " risk" were willing too accept for a "wilderness" experience, I don't think that "counting" on others for help, should be part of your "trip plan".
I carry a lot of "self help" things, that THANK GOD, I've never had too use! When I read stories like Marlin55388, it doesn't seem like such a "burden" ;)

To be clear...when I showed up on the scene-I did see a first aide kit-the group was attempting to keep her warm-they had attempted to split her-their focus was on her and that is it...This is one of the reasons that I am sharing this story with "yawl". Their group was in disaree, folks milling around-soaked to the bone-initial stages of hypothermia-etc, etc,etc. Their focus was right but not complete-reactionary and not proative; because I have had some experience with situations similar to this it stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Keep the group intacked it is a tool to be used in an evac...and you dont want more half baked problems. When they came acrossed mick and me they were running for help-in over there heads- limited evac. experience...the time line would have IMHO meant that she would have spent the night where she was at. The point is run the senarios, run the timelines, look at your group, understand your limitations, EXPECT the authorities with not save your bacon-"they will not know where you are", so on so forth. And for Lord's sake keep your head on straight and keep it simple...if ya have to sit down to process the situation sit down!

Hey travelman...behave yourself...respect is earned over the long haul.

Solotripper-accidents do happen! Being prepared helps one deal with them when they do. And understanding ones limitations, and goups limitations helps mediagate them in the first place. IMHO ;) It is a serendipitious thing...but on the trip in question-I used the old "repair kit" for the first time ever :o Been carrying that bastard for eons-backpack repair kit adapted for paddling. Note to self: replace superglue and thread and add another needle. Since curiousity killed the cat: blew a sleeping bag compression bag and a small hole developed in the tent no see-um netting :-[ Mickey thought that it was pretty kool that i could "jix" it on trail- ;D

NOLS has decent wilderness first aide book-good read.

This is why I drink... ;)

That and being a Sox fan living in the shadow of the Cubs all my life!

I find it impossible to respect those who do not respect or take care of themselves.

The opening scene to the overlooked Idiocracy says it all:

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Living in a city that is a practically a welfare state, full of people with their hands out always asking for more - I run to the Quetico a.k.a. "the wilderness" to "get away from it all".  

I find it abhorrent that we live in a world dominated those who demand/expect to be taken care of by those willing to provide care regardless of the caretakers wants and needs.  

For us we plan carefully every trip, we THINK about where we are going, what we are doing, what our limitations are (you are not alone Spartan2!).  We try and learn everyday, to be aware and to respect the world and people around us, but I am not as careless as others of giving respect undeservedly.  

I go out of my way to help those who need if and when they are in true need, because of course If we were ever in need we would trust & hope that someone else would be willing & able to help.  

That being said I cannot absolve or condone willful ignorance in a place that cares not of our limitations or our capabilities.  Mother Nature rarely shows her caring side, she rewards those who prepare and respect her power and she punishes those who don't, period.  

Living in the shadow of Pompeii, living below sea level or along a known fault line, sleeping beneath a half down tree or being unprepared in a "wilderness" is willful ignorance and undeserving of respect IMHO.  

Ah well no one cares what I think anyway!  Dumb people live to breed more dumb people everyday!

Time to root for the south side and raise a glass to one of the few gems left in North America!  

May the "wilderness" return to a true state of wild natural freedom and the world remain relatively free of curmudgeons like me!

Travelman I got it...IT IS WHAT IT IS...follow....dont think that U are a crabby person or anything of the sort-get that you have your ideas-agree that being unprepared gets one what is deserving and the other stuff-but one has to acknowledge the lack of control, perfection, and such that is life. Nevertheless...I am glad that I was there for those people on Alpine...and kudos to you for looking upward...for those dead falls-the boy gets that notion. And I did respond to your post on the thread :)

Been thinking about the experiences that I have over the years a bit more. I thought that for some that I should expand on them a bit more. More than fifteen years ago, before GPS units were widely available at an affordable price, I had an experience that made me look at evac, situations a bit differently, IMHO, than most. It rolls nicely into the premise of their ownership in a "wilderness" setting; and it is the reason that I knew that having those folks go for help on the Seagull/Alpine endeavor would/could mean having the injured party lay until the next morning. :o The experience that I am reflecting on was a complicated one to say the least. Going to try and keep it as simple as I can and simply stick to the facts.

1. We dealt with state lines.
2. We dealt with county lines-multiple sheriff offices and jurisdiction issues between the Feds and Locals.
3. USGS maps that were not accurate-coordinate issue between 7.5 minute and 15 minute maps.
4.Major turn over in the helicopter pilots that fly the helitech crews.
5.The search and rescue folks did not have GPS so they had a hard time figuring out where we were...we knew but they were unfamiliar with the area due to turn over of pilots and employees.

Not trying to paint a bad picture of the professionals at all. Just sharing the facts so that your wits can remain in a good place when running through the possibilities in the trip planning. ;)

So finally, I am getting around to posting the trip pictures from the "broke leg tour".

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Thanks, looks like the boy had a great time.  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Was that snake shedding or was it just two-toned? Does that look like a defensive posture to anyone else?

Yes...hiding it's head, got the musk too :P . Just wanted the shot, to share. I think that it was freshly shed the eyes were nice and bright. Red-morphs, pretty aren't they. It was a different trip for both of us. Two cow calf sets, no lakers-and fished dang hard for them, and then the broke leg at end. The trip came together at the end...that was the hinge pin...the point that it made sense. Expect the unexpected! Thanks DB [smiley=thumbup.gif]

really nice marlin   :exclamation  [smiley=dankk2.gif]  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Hello to my friend Riversend! Thank you to U also!

Piggyn wrote on Aug 4^th, 2009 at 3:20am:

solotripper wrote on Jul 30th, 2009 at 11:19pm: It's hard too even know where too lay the blame for so many being un-prepared. I guess you would start with the Outfitter IF they used one, then the trip leader and work down from there. I don't think you could blame an outfitter for that mess.  They shouldn't ever knowingly send out a woefully unprepared group without first trying to convince them of what they really need, but different people have different ideas about what they consider necessities.

Reading this thread makes me think back to my half century of canoe country experience and emergency situations.  I’ve canoed with family, friends, church groups and Boy Scouts.  As a Scout leader you do your best to make sure the group brings all the proper gear on the list.  Of course our Scout groups are generally prepared for the trip in that they at least have experience with water safety, canoeing, monthly Scout camping trips, and we only allow senior Scouts on the adventure.  Incidents to watch out for include twisted ankles, burns from the fire, hot water, and particularly watch out for hot grease; and cuts associated with knives or axes.  We relied on outfitters for the canoes, food and group equipment.  I’ve seen a novice group swamp canoes on the first day in wind and waves.  I’m always the one who reminds everyone in our group that we can always wait out the storm.   My background as a Safety Director I’ve learned that over 90% of accidents are caused by unsafe acts.  Most situations can be addressed though leadership, planning and proper safety rules. Some lessons are easy to see and correct, but some are tough situations.  Proper leadership knows when to get assistance, and of course watch out for advice from people who think they are the know-it-alls.

People say that they learn by experience, but experience is a tough way to learn because you have to take the test first without knowing the answers.  Some people it’s hard for them to ask or pay for advice.  A friend of mine told me that his family went on their first canoe trip with their gear and food in paper grocery bags instead of Duluth packs.  I’d like to hear the stories of what outfitters see and hear from novice canoeists’ experiences.  I’ve had canoeists (on Crooked Lake) paddle over and asked us where they were.  I remember an incident a friend told me that they had a novice group portage though their campsite on the horseshoe-shaped island on Moose Lake.  They had paddled down to the end of the bay and thought they were at the end of the lake.  Lesson: Map reading is an art and it can be difficult to get use to the scale, I always orient the map in the direction that I’m proceeding, mount a compass on my vest, and use points, bays and campsites for reference points.  I’ve once met a group on a portage (in October) and they asked if they could borrow some matches.  Lesson: Be prepared.   I have some friends who were novice college canoeists and got up in the morning preparing breakfast and had a neighboring canoeist from a campsite down the lake towing their canoe back that had blown away in the night.  They asked; “Is this your canoe?”  They didn’t even know that it was missing.  Lesson: be sure to tie your canoe up at night.

Here are some of the emergency situations experienced or heard of from friends.   A friend of mine was on a Quetico trip with Boy Scouts where they had a severe thunderstorm blow down a huge clump of mature, +100’ tall white pines in the middle of the night on their campsite.  The trees crashed though the Scouts tent impaling the middle of a sleeping bag, just missing the Scouts, no one was injured.  Once on a month long canoe trip, a week out from civilization, we had one of our party get a fishhook in the thumb and we performed bite-the-bullet surgery. Had one incident we had an experienced camper cut their hand with and axe on the last day of the trip and we canoed him to the Ely emergency room for stitches.  My brother was on a Scout trip years back where an inexperienced scout on first day out cut his leg with an axe and they evacuated him by canoeing him out navigating the numbered lakes in the dark.  My friend had a canoeist have an epileptic seizure and fell out of their canoe in frigid October water (no life vest).  My wife’s brother died of hypothermia on a winter x-country ski trip.  My uncle died of a heart attack on his annual canoe trip with my cousins.

One rule is when an emergency situation comes along; make sure you don’t compound the situation by doing something (stupid) without thinking through the consequences.  Proper leadership, planning, proper safety rules, first-aid kit, being physically fit, and of course proper outfitting, supplies and equipment and prepare for the worst.  Proper leadership includes planning to know how much you can accomplish in a day, and knowing when you need help from outfitters.  You live and learn, and hopefully you make the right decisions.

starwatcher

Well said, Starwatcher! Thanks for sharing your stores.

So, I was just thinkin'....About the folks that may not go back and read the thread, not that I am attached to anything in this situation but to the knowledge that may be shared through it. Let's see here. I to have experienced a fatality on trail, trauma type injuries from a falling boulder...not the leader of the group in question, but closely attached to the woman that died. Actually just came across the evac. plan drafted by my friend a few days ago, good plan for a bad situation, it was tucked away in a book years ago...but that is another story. I have had the experiences of folks that I was guiding brake a foot, brake a nose, have mental troubles on numerous occasions, burns-sun for the most part, and hypothermia on many occasions-one of which should have killed the twelve year old...Listening or the lack there of, both to the self and to the colleague played a roll in all of them is some way or another. Here's is to all the things that we dont know we dont know, and more importantly to be open to them! Novice, beginner, those are just as dangerous as being an "expert". Expect the unexpected.

Quote:

My background as a Safety Director I’ve learned that over 90% of accidents are caused by unsafe acts.

This should be the FIRST line in any group trip planner for ALL to read and discuss. People need to be made aware that the ONLY dumb question is the one you fail to ask when the subject matter is out of your scope of experience.

I agree( sort of) sometimes first hand experience is the best teacher. However if you don't survive it, then your a statistic and the "teaching" comes from other's learning from your mis-fortune!

My Dad was a mechanic/repair person his entire life. In All his work years, he NEVER had a cut bad enough that he needed stitches. He taught me at a young age, " Never put yourself between a rock and a hard place"   ;) IF you could get that idea/message in everyones head, there would be far fewer "accidents" and less frivolous lawsuits :(

I've had some dangerous jobs over the years. I've managed to stay stitch free at work and in the wild, because of that lesson I learned as a boy.

Even now, before I do anything/anywhere, I ask myself " What's the WORST thing that could happen?"  Then I ask myself is the reward worth the risk? IF the answer is yes, then I develop a Plan B that will give me a reasonable chance of surviving Plan A when Murphy's Law kicks in.

So far it's served me well.

Good!