marlin55388 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2009 at 10:23pm:

<big snip>In addition....I am confronted once again with the concept of Wilderness and what it means? Well that's a start...got a date...got to go

He reinforced it a few times in that thread. The home page of this site celebrates the concept - "Wilderness Still" with the loon call for reinforcement. I'm well aware that the BW/Q has been mostly logged over, mined or at least sampled, thought of as a game reserve... but what keeps it 'wilderness' IMHO for now, is it's still more useful to promote it that way. There isn't that much of it left, especially so accessible. You want wilderness? Take a hike into Iran. 'Hey, we didn't know there was a line and stuff just happens'.

Quote:

You want wilderness? Take a hike into Iran. 'Hey, we didn't know there was a line and stuff just happens'.

 Being "unprepared" for the worst is a common thread in both events IMHO.
Maybe with a little "naivety" thrown in for good measure.
One thing for sure, I'd rather be in deep Doo Doo ANYWHERE in America, than the likes of Iran/Afghanistan :'(
I guess their not training CIA "agents" like they use too ::)

There are some city streets that are too wild for me. Comes with being old and cranky -- of course, I was cranky before I was old.

Tim

I'm jumping in the middle of this so this might be inappropriate, but that's never stopped me before...

Bob Marshall, father of the Forest Service national wilderness system, reportedly said that "wilderness is a place, where, if you break your leg, you die."  

I really like this definition, but I'm sure if I checked the legislative definition of wilderness, I'd find something else...

Think we should ban satellite phones?

prouboy

Sat phones will ban themselves...all they need is a litttle more time. Break a leg in the Bob's and your bear foder...I wonder if a bear has bad breath, curious because that would probably be the last thing one would smell... :oI  like these concepts of wilderness...no sat phones, no help, and no people...but I am confronted with those desires and the knowledge that probably the only way that one can really do this know is in the far north...and most likely very early and late in the season and on obscure rivers. Hey has any one ever paddle siberia, china,or the middle east during their rainy season?

Further...I wonder if there is anyplace on the face of this planet that has never been stepped on by we humans? I ponder "lecha ghia"-the cave in Mexico. The first summitting of peaks in Antartica....so on and so forth. For me that is wilderness-the romatic idea of it...being the first to see it...the first one to leave that boot print. But the older I get the more I am intreged with the ancients-loved seeing the Southwest because of that...and cant wait to see the far north because of it. I suppose that is why I am thinkin' about it again...my far fetched concept needs an overhaul in these times. Heck I still have hope though... ;). Anyone putting together that trip to nowhere and is looking 4 another PM me and I will interview 8-), seriously ;)...but no promises as the top priority is the boy, U know, and he is to young for the far north.

I think this pretty clearly defines the what is and is not wilderness:
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Sorry, I couldn't resist.   :)

If you look at each exterme, non-wilderness is where there are lots of people and things are highly altered by the presence of those people.  

On the other end, pure wilderness would have no people, and no one to even look and say "hey, that wilderness over there."  It might even be nearly impossible to access.  This would also mean that no one would know or care about that wilderness, except in a philosophical sense, since they'd never been there or seen it.

I think of the BW/Q as "accessible near-wilderness."  "Accessible" because many people can get to it if desired.  Not pure but "near" in this sense: if left alone for a fairly short period of time (a generation or so), it would largely seem to be pure wilderness to a new visitor (until they find the occasional concrete dam, logging artifacts or cabin remains, etc.)
-Tom

For myself few people better distill the magic and beauty of the wilderness experience than Sigurd Olson.

To quote from Olson:

"Wilderness is more than lakes, rivers, and timber along the shores, more than fishing or just camping.  It is the sense of the primeval, of space, solitude, silence and the eternal mystery."

Sigurd Olson from an Article in Naturalist Magazine

Couple fo real good definitions here. I plan to steal them. Ely Chamber of Commerce interviewed me a few years back and I told the chap, "It's a place where you can be alone and not be lonely." Any of you want to steal that, do it.

Tim

I like the concept from the Wilderness Act of 1964:

“A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain.”

(By the way, I used to read "untrammeled" as more or less meaning "untrampled," but it really means "not limited or restricted; unrestrained.")

I also think of "wilderness" in terms of its root "wild" (or "wilder").  It's a comparative concept:  that which is wilder.  There's a whole lot of wilder-ness in the BW/Q, even it it was logged and has maintained portages and campsites.

The Q is a place where I enjoy the illusion of wilderness.   If I can find a route where I can paddle for a few days and see nobody, then it's close enough to a wilderness for me.  

Nevertheless, I am well aware that many feet have trod the ground I walk up there...except maybe on my Memory Lane boondoggle  :P ...and thus my passage is eased.  There is comfort in a path because one can reasonably expect that all those who made the path eventually got to where they were going.  

Wilderness begins when one steps off the path and makes one's own way in the world.  Yet even so, eventually one hopes to rejoin a path which leads one back to what drove the desire to leave the path in the first place.  When that path is rejoined, wilderness is at an end.

Not all paths are on land and not all paths are even in the physical world.  Turns out wilderness is a rather portable concept after all, if one knows the trick of how to find it regardless of one's current physical location.  

Most of the time, I prefer the illusion of wilderness over true wilderness.  True wilderness is a dangerous place indeed, and I have responsibilities in the non-wilderness that I do not take lightly.

I think I like what HoHo and Snow Dog have said.  I have been thinking about this question now for a couple of days, and it will stick with me for a few more. . .but I do like those.

Snow dog that is enlightening indeed-Zen quality :)Me thinks that I can ponder this for awhile...Thanks and Kudos!

This is fun! All good thoughts and notions. Thanks to all, keep it coming! I hope Old Salt is catch some big ones :)

Even on arctic river trips you'll find active river gauges, firerings, abandoned cabins, trashed canoes, monuments built to people who died, old fishing lodges, prospector's staked claims,,,,,it all tells a history,,,doesn't ruin the experience for me,,,,take the same place in Q but visit it on the last edge of the paddling season and it's wilderness, or go solo instead of with a group.

Mother nature holds the cards, just think of Katrina. But I guess it's any place I see nature has done most of the work and is slowly reclaiming what was done by man. I don't mind finding old logging ruins and such,,,,hate the TP flowers growing on overused campsites though. Not really hung up on some utopian concept of wilderness,,,heck you can't even go to the moon without seeing footprints. Put me in the S_D state of mind,,, I can pretend for a while.

All great thoughts/comments.  I agree with much of what has been written, and I'm relieved there hasn't been a fundamental debate about this.  I think we are in violent agreement, in general.  

For me, solitude and quiet are so much a part of "W."   You have to work at it, but it can be found in the Q, and I suppose the BWCA.  

At risk of taking this in another direction, Jim_J_Solo's comments about TP flowers reminded me of a wonderful development...the QP is instituting a TP exchange program, replacing campers' TP with biodegradable TP.  What wonderful news!  

prouboy

TP flowers, fishing line, bandaids, wet wipe wrapers, plastic candy wrappers, map and compass, paddle, fish hooks, tent stakes, para cord, tin foil, half burnt watermelon rind, etc, etc, etc These are just some of the things that the boy and I found on our last trip.  :-? Stuff that torques me...but then I can see the Oaks between Swamp and Sag. and I think that it's really neat-they are there because they were planted by people the same ones that left there "graffiti" that we oogle over and books are written about. "Wilderness" is about perspective...it is interesting to hear the perspectives on this thing. I am sure that I would oogle over hunting blinds and the like in the far north...Maybe it is just the "GROSS" factor...TP flowers are gross...but there is nothing like sitting down in the appropriate place , after that morning cup, listening to the sparrows doing their northern serenade...the relief....the woods and water....just a different perspective. Pond water anyone, its filtered?

My last trip I learned to ID the NOLS approved moss that replaces TP. Works great too.

TP, just one more thing I don't need to carry.

Watch for poison ivy! A friend made a terrible mistake a few years back.

Tim

That Lunar/Moon to Cherry portage is insane...nipple high there...biggest that I have ever seen in MN. We vacuum bag the TP, works to shrink it down and keep it dry....Off topic.

I'm looking at a 1967 edition of Naturalist magazine, Vol 18, number 1, titled "Perpetuating Wilderness."  It has a beautiful Les Blacklock ektachrome photo on the front cover titled "Canoe Country"

Considing the timing of this issue, and the establishment of the BWCAW, it's a classic issue with classic articles and authors writing about what wilderness means to them; Aldo Leopold, Daniel Henning; Wilderness... it's meaning to man; Sig F. Olson on the value of wilderness; L. D. Frenzel and L. David Mech, article on wolfs; J. Quinn article on owls; Charles H. Stoddard; Wilderness Canoe Country, controversy; along with tons of classic glossy pictures.

My own perspective: I've lived in places where access to nature is limited; or lakes with limited access.  I've always had a need to appreciate being able to get away to canoe country to absorb the spirit of the wilderness.  My footnote Sig Olson quote sums it up for me.

---

Nice photo indeed. Remember Ectachrome? Great film, now go by the wayside.

Tim

I asked my eight year old boy this afternoon-he has done somewhere between 8 and ten trips in the BW...What is wildeness?  He responded to me by saying to me,  "it is Woods, pretty, exotic, unknown, big, untouched, quiet,  and full of life"....and then comes running back to me an says,"oh yah it is dangerous". So there is some young perspective 4 ya all ;)

Great perspective and understanding from an 8 year old. Listen and the young shall tell ye. (I made that quote up.)

Tim

I agree with HoHo and Snow_Dog as well...

...wilderness is a state of mind.

When we remember that man is an animal, separated from the rest of the kingdom animalia only by the scope and power of his abstract thought, and that each man is privy to the same fears and instincts of his distant ancestors, one doesn't have to look far into the eyes of his brothers to see his own wild beginnings.

To a man without the material possessions of modern civilization, even the greatest metropolis can be a wilderness, whose dangers are often greater than those found in other places untouched by human hands.

And whether one lives in that metropolis, or in a mountain forest beyond the edge of civilization, the ties that bind us to the Earth are equally as strong.

What concerns me when I ponder the future is not how we define wilderness, in terms of spatial dimensions and other such physical specifications, but rather, how we interpret What It Means to us as a species of humans. Without wilderness, life itself is regular; it is methodic, monotonous, predictable, and without joy.

Losing the wilderness in terms of acreage is not what worries me. It's losing the concept of wilderness, the idea of wilderness, and the certain priceless ideals and values which have stemmed from an evolutionary cycle spent trying to survive within it. Self sufficiency, empathy, compassion, patience and perseverance... when the idea of wilderness is gone, what is the next chapter for our species? Where is our future?

Even in the BWCA, squatting at a dedicated campsite which offers a steel fire grate and a latrine, one can still be as alone as one desires.

To the solo traveler, any stretch of quiet water or rugged trail is as great a wilderness as his mind allows it to be.

Some very well-written thoughts.  Kudos to all.  For the past couple years, I've been trying to explain to family and friends the allure of canoe country.  Living now in Ohio (but always a Minnesota native) I don't meet many who've experienced the BWCAW and Quetico, let alone ever gone on a canoe trip.  When I try to explain why I do it every summer (and why I fight through the weather and bugs and rigors), the reactions I get range from, "That sounds so cool" to "Huh?" to "That's crazy!  Who do you talk to for a week when you solo?".

I think the allure of this adventure starts with this thing called the wilderness concept.  I too believe it is more a state of mind than anything physical--it's almost a spiritual sense that allows us to understand why wilderness can be an important part of our lives.  

When I begin my trips each year, especially a solo trip, I usually find myself nervous the first day or two.  I worry I may have left something important behind, or may have left something behind on the last portage or campsite, or perhaps I'll get sick, or fall and injure myself and maybe have a real tough time making it out.  Then, as I gain more distance from the crowds, things get quieter and calmer and I begin to settle into nature's rhythm.  My nervousness changes to contentment and profound pleasure.  Then comes that realization that as humans we are very small and almost inconsequential in the wilderness that surrounds us, to the planet we live on, and the stars and galaxies we see in the night sky.  Not that we aren't special in God's eyes, but just that in the physical universe, we aren't much.  Sitting quietly and simply observing nature in the BWCAW or Quetico brings a real humbling feeling.  And I'm truly thankful for that feeling--absolute joy that I have the opportunity to sit on this rock, at this time in my life, and gaze at the water, the trees, the sky, the wildlife and the stars.  And when that happens, and it always does eventually, I realize the rat race back home in the "civilized" world is not as important as some would make it seem.  

And maybe that's why wilderness and its concept is important.  It helps us keep life in perspective, to cherish the relationships we have with our family and friends, and be good stewards on earth while we are still here.