Hi. I joined QJ a few years ago and have followed various discussions but I have never posted.

I would like some insight, advice and discussion on capsizing, recovery, hypothermia etc. from those more experienced than I.

First, a bit of background: I've tripped in Quetico nine times, having come down from Stanton Bay a few times, over from French once and up through Prairie Portage several times. Have spent time in the Poet Chain, around Chatteron, in upper Agnes, Sarah, Pickerel etc.

Typically we have six or seven people, a la three tandems and maybe a solo.

Our trips typically last seven to nine days in early September, with one in -- ugh -- mid-October. Like all of you, we've seen our share of wind and rain, with some hail and sleet thrown in.

But still, I consider myself to have limited canoeing experience -- not like a buddy who, for example, grew up paddling Kentucky whitewater and has been tripping in Quetico since the '70s.

Two years ago -- because of significant weight differential, I surrended the back end of my Wenonah Champlain to a good buddy with limited stern experience. He did well, but in high winds and rain on Agnes our nose got turned around in one of the bottlenecks and, yep, we went over. Fortunately, we'd tied in our packs, had just moments before slipped into our PFDs and were only about 50 yards from a shallow spot, so not much harm other than embarrassment, shivers and a need to "gird the loins" and get back out there.

But it raised the question: What if we had been, say, two-thirds across one of the big lakes with head-on waves? In September water?

What's the best strategy then? Swim the canoe in? How long would that take? Too much exertion/heat loss? How cold is the water? How long do we have before hypothermia begins to set in?

Or should one try to right the canoe (if need be and if even possible with heavy packs inside it), climb in it (even if it's submerged) just to get out of the cold water, and try to paddle/drift to shore?

Or hang on buddies' canoe as they paddle us to shore to get into dry clothes and or sleeping bag, then let submerged canoe drift in/get towed in?

Other suggestions?

Now I know the first rule of capsizing is "don't." And I know a lot depends on distance from shore, wave action, wind and temperature. Problem is I don't know average temperature of water in September, nor do I have a feel for how long it would take to get to shore swimming, floating, drifting or being towed.

Am I the only person who has ever gone in the drink? What do other people do? Has anyone ever gone over, say, in the middle of Pickerel, or way out in Bayley Bay, or the middle of the bigger Agnes sections?

If so, what did you do? Did it work? Outcome? Second thoughts?

Does your group talk about strategies beforehand?

I'm a willing listener to stories, anecdotes, advice etc.

A couple of other notes: 1 -- We don't have a lot of complainers in our group. If weather turns, or something goes wrong, typically we just grin and bear it, with a bit of lamenting but mostly laughing and making do. 2 -- Quetico is a gorgeous place. I envy those of you who live closer, and I have a lot of respect for the Canadian government, outfitters and those individuals who have worked so hard to keep it pristine.

Sorry about the length of this post, and thanks in advance.

-- kypaddler

Hey there.  Having spent many of my (relatively) short years on this earth paddling, and having worked as lifeguard for many years, I've got one take on this question- SAFETY!  Rule number 1- ALWAYS wear your PFD- most drownings are within swimming distance of shore, and 99% preventable.  Sitting on a PFD does not make it a PFD, just a really expensive cushion!

I've played around a lot with empty canoes in the middle of lakes, flipping, etc., and let me tell you that trying to pull an empty canoe full of water to shore is pretty darn hard, let alone a fully loaded trip canoe:)

Safest bet would be to swim for shore, and track down your canoe and gear later when the weather calms.  Trying a canoe rescue in heavy chop is a recipe for disaster- you'll probably just flip the other canoe :(

Safe paddling!

I agree, with cold water temperatures, your priority is getting to shore as quickly as possible.  During the shoulder seasons, you should carry waterproof fire making supplies in your pfd.  You mentioned Bailey Bay swims and how long you would be in the water.  My dad had such an experience last summer, he and his canoeing partner capsized in the middle of Bailey Bay and spent over an hour in the water before they reached shore.  Luckily it was late August and the water was warm.  If it had been early May, they would have been in big trouble.  

kypaddler,

A few years back, maybe before your "time" we had a lengthy and spirited discussions about wearing PFD'S and other safety issues related to taking a swim.
I've only been over once, 2nd year solo, and I made a mistake and payed for it. It was May, and the water was damn cold.
I was close to shore, and my ONLY concern was getting to shore and getting warm. I keep everything lashed in canoe, except the paddle I'm using, so when I went over, I let the wind/waves push me to shore, I knew the canoe would he following.
I have a Cabelas comfort mesh vest, no excuses for not wearing on hot days. It has two big zippered pockets with my "self rescue" gear.
I have zippo lighters in waterproof container, plus a magnesium firestarter bar. Also some tinder. I also have a small 4oz space blanket, and IMHO, a potential lifesaver, a half dozen chemical heat packs, the kind oxygen activates.
 Dependiong on YOUR physical shape and water temp and exposure time, you MAY or MAY NOT, have the dexterity to start a fire with the tools you have?
 When I hit shore, the first thing I did was use my teeth, and tore open 2 heat packets, and placed in each armpit. Then 2 more OVER my t-shirt, tucked in my underwear OVER my kidneys. I wear ALL fleece/synthetic on trips, regardless of season, so I just removed fleece pullover, "spun" dry overhead, and put back on. The heat pads soon had my CORE temp up to normal, and my canoe had washed into shore by then.
I never even changed clothes. I bailed out canoe, got some granola in me, and made a hot cup of coffee, while waiting for wind to die down.
I would consider staying with a overturned canoe , IF it was close enough to shore, I thought I could hang on and "guide" it in with the wind and waves.
In group situation, I would hang on to canoe, let your buddies paddle you in (less chance of dumping them), and let them retrieve the canoe/gear, IF they could without to much risk to themselves.
Packs/paddles/canoes float, anything that wasn't tied in and can sink, already has ;) If you a seasoned tripper and know to line your packs with plastic liner, they'll float high and dry for a long time.
NO piece of gear is worth dying for, take care of the paddlers first, and regroup when you can.
 I agree sitting on your PFD, is like sitting on a seatbelt. It's a lot easier to pull a person with PFD into a canoe, than a person that is potential in a panicked state and not thinking of YOUR safety. It's also easier to hang on and let the canoe take you in, being buoyant in a PFD saves you energy, you need to keep your core temp up.
Whatever you decide to do, have a PLAN, that ALL know about and go along with. IMHO it's better even in a group, if EACH canoe has the right safety gear, or even better you have some heat packs in EVERYBODY'S PFD.


 

Hey,

Thanks for the replies and advice. Anybody else out there ... please chime in. I really do want to hear what y'all have to say.

Point taken on the PFDs. And tho I always carry fire-starters (lighters AND magnesium), survival blanket, knife etc. on my person, solotripper, I didn't think of the heat packets. Thanks for that tip.

Sounds like y'all are saying unequivocally that a water-filled canoe is just too unwieldy to mess with and to get our soggy butts into shore and worry about the canoe later.

But a question for all the cold-water survivalists out there, if it's a long way to shore and help (as in another canoe) isn't available for some reason for a "tow", is it better to curl up in a ball to retain heat and just float in, or swim a bit? Time vs. lost energy/body heat. Hmmm. Anybody? (Of course I recognize that sometimes  the waves are taking you to the far far shore, and it's better to get to the closest shore even if it takes a bit of effort).

Also, if it is indeed a long long way in, and help not there, is it worthwhile to try to climb up on the canoe to get out of the cold water (is that possible?), or is any body heat saved offset by the extra time it'll take for the canoe to float in with you on top?

Anyway, sorry for all the chatter, I guess I just got spooked a bit by the dunking.

Again, thanks.

-kypaddler (counting down: 3 weeks and 5 hours)

I'll take a different tack - While its hard to say that the dangers of hypothermia are over exagerrated - I'll say that it is, to some extent overexagerated (is that a word?)  If you have some common sense, you probably aren't going to die instantly just cause you flipped over in cold water.

My cousin and I once flipped a canoe over in April, on a NY river that was essentially snowmelt - still had small chunks of ice floating down.
It was so cold, the "gasp reflex" was working pretty strongly and it was hard to catch my breath.  That's when the "common sense reflex" kicked in.  The river was maybe a quarter mile wide with strong pushy current - no way we were going to last long if we tried to stay with the canoe, so I told my cousin to abandon the boat and swim for shore, which we did - we made it to shore after  15? minutes or so? - floated at least a mile down the river - except that we didn't float, but rather we swam as strongly as we could for the bank, doing so with numb hands and feet and legs, but keeping the blood circulating.  When we got on shore, my cousin was pooped out, but I made him run with me downstream to try and catch up with the canoe - so we kept moving, running on lead feet with no feeling for a mile.  Air temp was probably in th fifties with a light breeze? I doubt it was sixty, and could have been in the forties - don't remember exactly.

My Dad and sister were in another canoe following us, saw us go over and with that warning, knelt and made it thru the rough spot.  They followed up our canoe and caught it washed up on a gravel bar, empited it and towed it across to us.  All the time we waited, we kept doing jumping jacks or whatever to keep the blood moving.

It was a spur of the moment trip, and we weren't very well prepared - no spare clothes.  I was going to start a fire, but the matches I had in my pocket in a zip-lock had goten wet - I was the only one with any matches.  We dried off a little, swappped around some dry shirts among us, and proceed to paddle as fast as we could downriver a few miles to the car.

So my cousin wound up catching a cold due to our swim - I was fine, not even a cold.  We didn't die - we didn't get hypothermic even - shivers yes, incoherant no (well no more than on a normal day for me).

So my point is, you have to keep your head and use it, if you give up, well, you probably will die - if you keep moving, you may not even get a cold.

I actually stupidly  fell out of my canoe on one solo trip in Quetico - end of May, not far off the Nym dock.  2 busloads of kids came down to the dock, dumping packs and gear everywhere, burying my stuff.  My only option was to get off the dock asap - so I threw my stuff in my boat and took off.  Trying to paddle and reorganize at the same time, I twisted the bent-shaft paddle around and doing a stern draw or something (wasn't paying any attention to my padling), totally unexpectedly I just pulled myself out of the canoe somehow - boat took on a little water, but stayed upright - so I just grabbed the painter and swam for shore, maybe a hundred yards or so.  It was a sunny day, but early in the morning in May so it was probably about 50?

I just dried off a little, squeezed some water out of my clothes, put on a fleece jacket, dumped the water from the baot and continued on.

You asked about September - my opinion, Sept or Oct, the water is still warm - and likely it will be warmer than the air - I wouldn't be too worried about stayiing in the water a while in Sept, and swimming a boat to shore.  You would have to be moving fast when you did get out though, as the cooler air temp and wind would get you then.  Just change into your dry clothes, and never stop moving till you warm up.

With two canoes, I'd go ahead and try a canoe over canoe if the gear wasn't in the way - most boats I see out there though , they have packs sticking way up above the gunnels, likely enough to get in the way of a canoe over canoe - in htat case, probably best to tow the swimmers and boat to the nearest shore.

I've gone over WW canoeing several times here in Colorado - some of them were in April - the water is cold - a couple times, I didn't have a dry suit on, and it was icy, but I got to shore and chnaged clothes if needed - mostly, I just catch my breath, maybe change into some dry gloves and fleece jacket, and jump back in the boat - keep paddling to stay warm - even wiht numb hands and feet, you can generate enough  body heat to keep your core warm.

Now, I'm not saying you should ignore the dangers of hypthermia - I'm just saying that if you keep moving and use your head, your not all that likely to get hypothermic, even in cold water.  

Seems to me I've been colder on windy rainy days - even with good rain gear, seems like I eventually will get wet, what with water dripping down the sleeves.  My response is pretty much the same - keep moving to keep warm(er) - I always wet-foot, so even in May, my feet are going to be wet - sometimes, wet and numb - I just deal with it.  AND, I do almost always wear my PFD - I wouldn't have survied most of my swims without one!

We flipped in Basswood Lake near US Point a few years ago.  We were dead into a Southwest wind and should not have attempted the crossing.  But we did, and ended up in the water.  A couple thoughts...

Keep your important clothes dry.  We were in the soak for about an hour before hitting a reef in the middle of the lake.  There was no shelter and we needed to get warm and dry.  Fortunately, we all had our "survival" layers packed tightly in a dry sack so we shook dry, and put them on and warmed up.

Also, if you can, hold on to your paddle.  They are a lot harder to find down wind after the fact than your canoe.  If possible, stay with your canoe too.  

Never underestimate how fast things can go south when you are out there.  When things start to turn, take note and get secure.  Things have a tendency to unravel if you don't.

And, have fun.  Strong morale is essential to any survival situation.

"But it raised the question: What if we had been, say, two-thirds across one of the big lakes with head-on waves? In September water?"


one thing more - you need to be thinking about what you are doing - in trying conditions, you need to be alert for shifts in wind and waves and in wind intensity, and it always helps to kneel to lower your center of gravity.  You should have a "plan" in case you do go over during a rough open water crossing - know which shore is closest, and most likely, swim/tow your boat downwind - that way you aren't fighting the wind and waves, but are getting pushed toward the lee shore.  If conditions are that bad, I will try to stay close to one shore or another, but that's not always the smart thing to do.  The worst the conditions, the more important it is to maintain boat control - keep the bow pointed into the wind and waves - even if you want to get to a shore downwind, it may be best to travel backwards, keeping the bow into the wind and letting the wind blow you to the lee shore.  I don't think there is a canoe out there that can't handle big wind and waves if you know what you are doing, stay alert, react fast, and keep your cool.  If the wind is really bad, it can be hard to control a boat by yourself - you need to be communicating, especially if you need your bow paddlers help by doing a bow draw or sweep when you call for it.

Note that I keep saying "tow" - my opinion, you should always have  a painter line tied to your boat - with a line, you  or someone esle can much more easily rescue another boat, and you can always tie your boat when you are on shore - you just have to coil and tie it for portages.  I've helped tow quite a few boats on ww river trips - sometimes its other peoples boats, sometimes its self-rescuing my own boat (like that time on Nym Lake) - doing anything practical without a painter line is a whole lot harder.  With the line, you can swim a few feet, then pull your boat towards you, then swim some more - that is a lot easier than trying to hold on to your boat with one hand and swim with the other.   I wouldn't abandon my boat unless I though I'd die if I didn't - but if I ever had to on a lake, I'd be swimming downwind, cause that's where my boat would wind up, with my dry clothes and gear that I'd need to survive.

"He did well, but in high winds and rain on Agnes our nose got turned around in one of the bottlenecks and, yep, we went over."

This quote is why I am talking about boat control - my opinion, a bow paddler should know how to do a draw and sweep - could be a quick stroke on your part might have avoided that tip.  There are two people in a tandem,  it should operate as one team, paddling in synch and communicating - you swim less that way.

Mad_Mat,
I agree with everything you said, but IMHO, there's one big "factor" that helped you in your time of need.
 From your posts and trip reports, I know that YOUR in very good physical shape, probably better than most people, certainly better than most in your age bracket.
 Along with keeping calm and having a plan, your overall physical condition can play a big factor in any survival condition ;)

The rule of thumb I usei is if the canoe tipped would I be able to get to shore alive.  If the down wind shore is a 1/2 mile away and the water is cold as in May, you are dead.  As others have said, don't plan on getting back into your canoe or swimming with your canoe.  Get you and your partner to shore.

If the water temperature is in the 40's you really only have minutes to get to shore.

Westwood

I apologize if this has already been posted, but thought it was interesting.

  (You need to Login or Register

In mid sept the water temps near shore are still pretty nice for swimming. Can't comment on middle of the lake (yet).

My wife and I just got back from a 8-day trip through the Allagash Wilderness Waterway in northern Maine.  This was the first time we did a remote canoeing trip by ourselves.  In the middle of the trip I realized how scary it was that we were all alone and what would we do if we did have an accident.  The trip is a combination of lakes and rivers so both scenarios existsed: dunking in the middle of a big lake and with shore a long way away and dunking in a river and watching your canoe go downstream without you.

Flash back to an August 2004 trip to Quetico. It is a cold windy day (I think that night was a record low temp) and we battle waves on Basswood Lake to get to campsite SU on Canadian point.  My raincoat is drenched from the constant rain and sweating while paddling. With multiple clothes layers and a small fire, the windy, cold conditions still leave me cold.  I eventually crawl into the tent and my sleeping bag to warm up.  Hypothermia would have been a serious threat had I been there in just my wet clothes.

This summer, our second day out in the AWW was one of contant drizzle/rain.  It started warm, so we were dressed in our quick-dry lightweight nylon clothes.  About 3pm, we reached a campsite and got off the lake just before the temperature dropped and the rain and wind picked up.  Those wet/cold conditions persisted throughout the rest of the night.  We spent the afternoon huddled under a tarp and dived into the tent early.  The northeast has been very wet this summer, building a decent fire in Maine was a real challenge under the best of conditions.  The problem was not getting a fire started with plenty of available of kindling, it was getting it to any size and keeping it going.  The larger pieces of wood (1 inch diameter) absorbed all the fire's energy just drying themselves out.

With that background, here is the scenario.  Under such conditions, you dunk say a half mile from shore.  Maybe instead of mid summer, it is at a time with cooler water, say in the low 60's.  We are probably talking 30-60 minutes to reach shore.  Once you get to shore, you are still in danger because of the wind, cold, and rain.  If all you have are some tools to make a fire, I would think you still could be in big trouble.

What I realized as I was reading this thread is I had the "solution" right behind me the whole trip.  One great find for canoeing gear I made a few years back is a clear vinyl Eureka Cloudburst waterproof backpack (no longer made).  It holds about 2500 cu in, enough for some dry clothes, first aid kit, and other survival equipment.  That pack was always behind the stern seat, clipped to the rear canoe handle.  It is small enough that unclipping it and swimming with it to shore would be no problem.  A lesson learned for future trips.

Good post with the cold water boot camp. As a guide for a YMCA camp we did  a thing called "swim and swamp", basically an accessment for camper swimming ablities and a primer for the group if a swamping did occur. Practiced a canoe over canoe rescue and a wet paddle(paddling the boat ashore full (or partially full of water)...I clearly remember that it was quite diffecult to dump the canoe in the first place, but then again I have dumped at ice out paddling a new boat many many years ago ;D.  But anyways...Had a cold day, windy, early in the spring and had to due the swim and swamp :oTold the kids to bring there"dry clothes" to change after-stressed that! But kids being kids-heck some adults cant listen either :) they did not listen. Inside of 5 minutes I had a camper thatr had tossed their cookies and was out cold-he is OK-thanks to a sleeping bag and my body heat. Hypothermia/cold water drowning is real-watch the U-tube video...Wear your PFD's! ;) A few years ago I purchased a great PFD at the end of the year for a decent price and I hardly know I'm wearing it! Carry a rescue rope(throw rope). Lash my gear in the boat. Have run some senario's with the boy...and I only paddle the water that I am OK with...and we surf and quarter and "tach".

I have had a few brief swims in cold river water with and without the proper gear, although I was really glad to have a dump bag with me when paddling in shorts. Diane experienced a gasp reflex and difficulty breathing in cold water with a full wetsuit, rash guard and splash jacket, but head and face exposed.

I would sure hate to face those same water temps for very long in normal tripping clothes. Having a dry change of clothes/ polar-tec etc when you hit shore sounds like a good plan.

BrownTrout01 wrote on Aug 15^th, 2009 at 5:52pm:

Diane experienced a gasp reflex and difficulty breathing in cold water with a full wetsuit, rash guard and splash jacket, but head and face exposed.

I think this is a reaction that's often overlooked when discussing survival in cold water or even sudden unexpected dunking in warm water.
You always hear about the "good" swimmer who takes a dunk, and never come up? It's not always in cold water, where one expects the sudden shock and cold.
 I remember being at a pool party and coming up behind a friend of mine who was a Navy trained diver and recreational scuba diver.
I dunked him suddenly underwater, and he got a mouth/nose full of water, and just flipped out! Once he caught himself, he proceeded to let me have it too the point we almost came to blows :o
I apologized and left him alone. Later he came up with a peace offering beer, and apologized for over-reacting. He told me that even with his training, the dunk was so un-expected, he panicked for a moment, and what he was REALLY mad at, was himself for temporarily panicking.
I think that's a big plus in wearing your PFD, it gives you better odds of NOT getting that mouth/nose full of water, and having too deal with the gag/panic reflex.
 WE all like too think we won't panic when the chips are down, but in reality, until it happens NONE of us know for sure what we/others will do?
 It's good too discuss subjects like this, awareness is the key to survival.

Expect the unexpected! and be prepared for it!Preparation gets one closer to safety... Solotripper U got it...U really never know what will come out of people in stressfull/panic situations some folks shine like a star that leads them/U/a family member/a dear friend/spouse out of bunko situation some folks crumble and loose their wits...your friend is a big person to acknowledge his temporary loss of wits-I surmise that he grew a ton from the experience of the suprise ;)A PFD closes the door on some of the cold water issues, or a least gives one an opportunity to have more time to solve an issue like a cold water dump, that is why I ALWAYS wear one, no matter what the time of the year. ;)Understanding rescue techniques, hypothermia,  and mammalian reflex ( face out of the wind/waves after a dunk in water, dont panic and keep your wits ;) which should B easier to do with preparation) which should be a part of ones understanding IMHO.  But for the life of me I can imagine even attempting a canoe over canoe rescue in surf will gear lashed in :o

"What I realized as I was reading this thread is I had the "solution" right behind me the whole trip.  One great find for canoeing gear I made a few years back is a clear vinyl Eureka Cloudburst waterproof backpack (no longer made).  It holds about 2500 cu in, enough for some dry clothes, first aid kit, and other survival equipment.  That pack was always behind the stern seat, clipped to the rear canoe handle.  It is small enough that unclipping it and swimming with it to shore would be no problem.  A lesson learned for future trips."


commonly referred to as a "ditch kit" - numerous threads on Paddling.net cover this.   Almost a requirement for sea kayaking where you might have to abandon your boat and swim to shore.

I'd think it goes without saying that everone should have a set of dry clothes for such an emergency -  I include a microfiber towel in my clothes bag - a quick wipe down and change into dry clothes is probably more effective than staying in your wet clothes and trying to build a big enough fire to warm up at.

 Whenever I am solo I carry a small fanny pack strapped to the back of my PFD - its one of those cheapo fanny packs you get at a XC ski race, or for subscribing to a magazine, which is how I got this one - just a simple zippered nylon pouch that weighs nothing empty - but loaded, it is a survival kit, and includes a space blanket type of sleeping bag, fire starter, etc.

I ain't half as dumb as I sound some times - and sometimes, I like to give an alternative view to a thread - not much point in saying what everyone else is gonna say is there?

So true Mad Matt!

hey,

i love "alternative replies" and opinions.

If there's anything I've learned while canoeing, hunting, fishing and hiking with different people over the years, it's that there are a million different ways of doing things -- and each way/method has its share of "disciples."

Lots of good suggestions -- some I already do, some I will do in the future.

Nice to read and learn from y'all.

But Marlin, did you mean to say "can" or "can't": "But for the life of me I CAN imagine even attempting a canoe over canoe rescue in surf will gear lashed in"??

-kypaddler

CAN"T ;)

I almost didn't post this because I'm not sure it helps the discussion.

Some of the research I have read about cold water hypothermia indicates that leaving the boat and swimming to shore accelerates heat loss much faster than you think is possible.

There have been instances when individuals did not survive swimming 50 yards from a swamped boat to shore in calm conditions, on still water, wearing pfds. They didn't drown. Their hearts stopped from cold blood temperatures.

What I haven't found yet is how to handle these situations. There may not be a solution, which makes risk assessment and management much more essential in marginal conditions. The first survival requirement is smart decision making.

Pete

Pete,

Thank you.

Obviously a lot depends upon water temperatures. Anybody know the water temperatue on a typical southern Quetico lake in September ... or a least a range, given that much depends upon weather for the year and the size and depth of the lake??

Any other opinions on the "swim in vs. float in" debate?

-- kypaddler

Paddled part of the Ohio River this weekend. Y'all should have seen the geese coming in over the bridges ... not to mention the herons, mallards and a surprised coyote.

I think p_p, makes a good observation.
There probably isn't one way to handle this that fits EVERY condition.
I think we agree that getting to shore and into dry clothes or raising core temp is important, but I can see how "swimming" could deplete your core temp enough too cause heart failure.
I've read where they tell shipwreck sailors to pull there legs into their waist to try and hold their core temp up.
I guess that's were the "judgment" part comes in?
Depending on the water temp and your individual reaction to it, you have the choice of swimming for shore, staying with canoe, or you could roll into ball, and in all conditions let the wind and waves work in your favor if possible?
I'd say one constant was keeping your PFD on. I'm sure there's a scenario where being able too swim "faster" without PFD might be a benefit, but I think you could float and survive a lot longer in a PFD, than not make it to shore and exhausted try to tread water sans the PFD?
 Ideally you don't let yourself get into this scenario, especially far from shore.
 My one and only cold water dump made me a much more cautious paddler ;) Assuming you survive , hopefully you LEARN something from it?

I would just like to add that even if your packs definitely float, they may not float indefinately. The flotation built into most canoes is just a bit more than it takes to float the canoe -  a few waterlogged packs lashed in may send the whole package to the bottom. Often a canoe roll is due to heavy waves - waves that will batter the canoe and packs when it all goes wrong. So, even though I know that my packs will float (for a while), I never lash them in on flat water. Losing the packs is not as big of an issue as losing the canoe for obvious reasons. On a river, where you will probably be able to recover the mess downstream it makes a little more sense to lash the packs in.

The type of clothing you wear will likely make a big difference in how long you can survive in colder water - dress appropriately.

As others have mentioned, I always have a fanny pack (I call is a splash pack) attached to my body with the stuff I want handy for the trip and the stuff I want with me if everything else is lost.

-aj  

Like many threads like this in the past, this one is filled with "wear your PFD" advice.  Given the situation being addressed, wise advice.  What is missing is a strong sentiment for wearing something that protects against cold, such as a wet suit.

The news just reported on the person killed off Acadia in 55 degree water.  The report indicated unconsciousness occurs in such conditions in about an hour.  Early/late trips to Quetico probably encounter similar water temps.  Some kind of thermal protection is probably as important as a PFD, depending on the type of lakes crossed during the trip.

Quote:

Anybody know the water temperatue on a typical southern Quetico lake in September ... or a least a range, given that much depends upon weather for the year and the size and depth of the lake??

Curious to see any/all responses to the question above given an entry date of 9/4. Long range weather forecasts (for what they are worth) are highs in the low 50's and lows near freezing the first couple of days. That adds to the regaining core temperatures dilema should one or more of our group take an unexpected swim.

Will be watching the forecasts closely and  to decide between the bathing and/or wet suits. :-/

Any water cold enough to stop someones heart (I suspect you'd have to have a pretty weak heart ) would kill you just about as quickly if you stayed with the canoe and did a cannonball float - forget that idea unless you know there is someone coming to your rescue PDQ - I'd rather take my chances swimming, and at least have a chance of making it to shore.


Water temps early in september should be real close to august temps.  A large body of water loses heat  much slower than the land does (as you can tell from early winter when the lakes are still unfrozen even if there is snow on the ground).  As kids, we often went swimming in the Adirondackes in late Sept and October - the water always felt much warmer than the air did when we got out - we'd often jump back in to warm up

likewise, a large body of water will take a lot longer to warm up in the spring than the land does, so springtime is when the water is icy

an oft quoted "rule of thumb" for when to wear drysuit or wet suit is the 100 degree rule - when water temp plus air temp = 100 degrees or less.

I have never seen anyone wear a wetsuit or drysuit in Quetico, even in early May - you'd die on the portages; taking it off for portageing would take a lot of time and be really impractical.  I suppose if you were doing a trip in Voyageurs NP, a dry suit might be practical, since there are no portages.

Unless I'm doing a spring whitewater run, I don't wear a drysuit - neither does anyone else I know while canoeing (sea kayakers are the exception.  Typically, the first trip of the season is about the 3rd week in March, a multi-club group trip with up to fifty boats - I think maybe one or two people may wear a dry suit, and half? of the kayakers wear a wet suit - the rest of us just use common sense, don't tip over, and carry a change of clothes in waterproof bags in case we do flip.  Last trip of the season for me last year was in Mid-October on the Colorado R - hard frost in the morning - still didn't wear a wet suit.  I plan on not tipping over.

I've never worn a wet suit, but have seen this - a wet wetsuit is really cold once you get out of the water and into the wind -  people in wet wetsuits can't wait to get the things off.


Wally has found the best solution for a cold water swim - the sleek sea-mammal body that won't lose heat too rapidly.  Body mass has a lot to do with how fast you lose heat - a skinny little guy like me will chill out a lot sooner than a big husky guy.

I still say that people go overboard when talking about the dangers of hypothermia - if icy water is going to stop your heart, how come all the Polar Bear Club people, who go swimming thru the ice, like on new year's day, don't all die of heart attacks ?  Because they don't stay in the water very long, and dry off quickly when they get out.  So they reduce the potential risk of hypothermia.  So stay close to shore if the water is that cold, and use common sense and don't paddle in conditions that are beyond your capability.

practical reality vs potential risk - it is always possible to fall on a portage trail and hit your head pn a rock - you would be a lot safer if you wera a helmet, right?  so anyone wearing a wetsuit in Quetico because of the potential risk of hypothermia should probably also wear a helmet on the portages, just to be safe.

So of the many thousands of people who trip in BW every year, how many do you know of that have died of hypothermia there ????  

The water is still warm in early September - well above 55.  I think you can be in it a long time if you have to be.

Whether or not to lash packs in remains an unanswered question for me.  In terms of packs getting waterlogged - if you have a plastic liner in them, won't they float for a long time?  I know water will eventually find its way in, but it would take a while, and it sure would be nice to have packs with you and the canoe when you got to shore.  

At the end of July I was paddling a solo (borrowed from Solus - thanks Jon!) from the cabin and went for an unplanned swim.  It was a very windy day but I was on a small lake and the waves weren't bad.  I was testing my abilities and how the boat would respond and was crosswise to the wind, which grabbed the boat and send me tipping  over.  I'm still not sure exactly what happened, but it was alarming.  The really stupid thing was I did not have my PFD on.  I was pretty close to shore but I wanted to get there with the canoe because I couldn't walk back from that part of the shoreline (and I wanted to give Jon his canoe back).  I managed to get my PFD on - very difficult - and then pulled the canoe to shore while it was upside down in the water (it wouldn't stay upright).  I was fully clothed including with a rainsuit, but was still worried about getting chilled in the cold strong wind once I was out of the water.  However, once I got the boat emptied out I was able to paddle the mile or so home with no problem.  I was working hard and it kept me warm.  It was a pretty chastening experience.  In a lifetime of paddling, I've never unintentionally flipped a canoe on a lake before.  It definitely made me appreciate how hard it is to get to shore, so I'll probably be more cautious in rough conditions in the wilderness going forward.

"I'm still not sure exactly what happened, but it was alarming."

I'll speculate a bit - the wind "shook" or "shoved" the canoe and you tensed up, which is a natural reaction to an unexpected shove - if so, that is absolutely the wrong thing to do.  Any canoe should be able to handle being sideways to wind and waves, even big wind and big waves, especially if you are prepared for a quick brace with your paddle.  Tensing up, when the canoe leaned downwind, your body leaned also, and being top heavy, over you went.  In cross wind/cross waves you need to be flexing at the hips, keeping your upper body/torso upright and between the rails, and letting your lower body rock with the canoe - so your hips and the boat will be rocking with the contour of the waves and wind, but your upper body stays upright, within the rails.

I do an "exersize" the first time i climb into my very tippy whitewater boat - as soon as I'm setteld in, I go and rock the boat rail to rail, or at least a lot, while maintianing an erect upper body, letting my lower body rock with the boat  (flex at the hips) - after about 15 seconds of that, my boat no longer feels tippy - I'm "tuned in" to the boat, and staying upright becomes a more natural reaction.  Sometimes, I'll do that in my other solo boats - maybe right after leaving the dock at Nym L.  Not to say that I still don't get ejected from time to time.

so next time you get into an unfamiliar boat, give that exersize a try - it'll help settle you in.

I've gone down rapids and big wave trains frontwards, backwards and sideways - the boat will get through anything just fine, unless I screw it up.  Same thing in lakes in big wind and waves - a boat won't go over unless you tip it over.  Stay loose.

Thanks for the tip, Mat.  I have no doubt that "paddler error" accounted for my spill.  I was playing around a lot over several days with leaning and was very comfortable with the boat.  Probably I was too stiff when that strong gust came, but it happened so fast there was no time to react before I knew I was going into the water.

I have never been in a solo before but reading this thread I think this is what Mat was explaining to Ho Ho.



  (You need to Login or Register

That's a good video.  I need to get me one of those rocks that weighs as much as my head to test this out!

I have one to add:  Bring wool.  If you've ever needed it and used it when it's wet and still kept warm you will appreciate the comment.  I pack 2 layers of wool whether i'm canoeing, hiking, hunting...it's an old bit of knowledge, but important.

bojibob wrote on Sep 1^st, 2009 at 7:46pm:

I have never been in a solo before but reading this thread I think this is what Mat was explaining to Ho Ho.   (You need to Login or Register

As I've said before, when referring to the stability of a solo canoe, "you need to keep your mind the in the middle."  The video is a good demonstration of this.  I once found out (the hard way) that your center of gravity may take an unanticipated shift when you turn to look behind you.  And, yep, that mid-May water is pretty cool.

dd

gfy_paddler wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2009 at 2:27pm:

I have one to add:  Bring wool.  If you've ever needed it and used it when it's wet and still kept warm you will appreciate the comment.  I pack 2 layers of wool whether I'm canoeing, hiking, hunting...it's an old bit of knowledge, but important.

 Wool is a classic, but for some people, me included, I can't wear it for comfort reasons. I itch like crazy wherever it hits my skin.
 For people like me, Fleece clothes are the way too go.
Light/warm, doesn't hold body odor, you can "spin dry", (like whirling a wet towel), lighter than wool and can't hold water.
Drawbacks? Unlike wool, fleece melts when near a fire, but unless your a moron, you shouldn't be setting yourself on fire ;D
 Bottom line, EITHER are way better than cotton or WET Goose Down.

One thing to be aware of is differing individual responses to cold water.  As an anecdote, I was paddling a cold northern river and my two friends dumped in the middle of a relatively long rapids.  Although they weren't in the water too terribly long, one paddler was deeply chilled and took literally hours to warm up.  The other shook off the water like a labrador and showed no ill effects whatsoever.  However, I agree with other posters that water temps in September aren't much of a concern.

wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2009 at 4:12am:

However, I agree with other posters that water temps in September aren't much of a concern.

I was just wondering in regards to the water temps, is this year any different then an average year?

The whole summer has been cooler than normal. Just take normal precautions, wear your PFDs, etc.

I took a dump (my first ever unplanned) in Alpine a few weeks ago while agressively pushing off in my empty solo canoe, shaking one foot (to get some of that wetfoot water off). I just gathered the floating debris, emptied the canoe, got in and paddled away. The water was a bit cool, but I was in it only about a minute, and the air was warm. I wouldn't worry too much about the water temperature for a while...

I was dressed entirely in synthetics, mostly nylon and acrylic, and was mostly dry after about 15 minutes of paddling. I dress appropriately  ;).

I am usually okay in conditions that have other's teeth chattering - your mileage may vary...

-pat