Any advice for a novice solo on using a kayak paddle for primarily bw/q trips.  I paddle a Prism and have never used one, save for some short demo trips- 15 min. on calm water.  Thank You.

I just did my first solo trip for 9 days this summer.  I brought a kayak paddle and a bentshaft single-blade paddle for my backup.  The plan was to use the kayak paddle for travelling and the single-blade for fishing.  Less than a mile into my trip, I stowed the 'yak paddle and it became my emergency backup, never to get used again.  

I have never done any kayaking and I found the yak paddle used a whole different motion and different muscles than a regular paddle.  For me, that motion was awkward and uncomfortable.  I paddled in some pretty crazy winds on that trip, coming at me from all directions and never once was I tempted to use the yak paddle again.

I've never used one - my not so humble opinion is you should learn to paddle a canoe with a single blade paddle - using a kayak paddle is akin to using training wheels on a bike.  

Having said that, I'll add I don't care how you or anyone else paddle, but I think you'll earn higher karma points, have more satisfaction with your ablility,  with a single blade

I just led a club trip yesterday - a short 7 mile run down the S Platte River.  It was an open trip - 3 solo canoes, and two solo kayaks.  The water is low this time of year, and the floatable channels are narrow - lots and lots of sweepers blocking the channels.  In some places, you had to paddle within a foot of the bank to find enough water - the kayaks had some trouble manouvering in those tight spots- nowhere to put thier paddle in - the canoes didn't.

Kind of a synopsis of a lot of threads about double blade vs single blade - in the long run, it is more strenuous to use the kayak paddle;
a kayak paddle will help you to paddle into strong winds, somewhat easier than a single blade (due to a higher cadence and not needing correction strokes - true, but you can go to a higher cadence with a single blade as well - that's what I do).   The learning curve for paddling a solo boat with a double blade is about zero.

here is link to a thread that is a pretty good read on the subject- scroll down past the adds to see the posts

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I think it boils down to whether you really really like paddling or not - if all you want to use your canoe for is transportation - to get into some lake to fish, it doesn't make any difference how you get there - a motor is the easiest and most efficient way to go (and you can do that in some parts of BWCA).  IF you paddle for the pleasure of paddling, the art of paddling, then why stop half way ?

I paddle with a lot of different people - one guy who paddles both canoes and kayaks (he seems to prefer kayaks for everything but white water) is always telling me that I should try the kayak, to cross over to the dark side.  I'm sure I'd enjoy paddling a kayak - problem is, I really really like to paddle my canoes - can't do both, so no thanks, I'll stick to my canoes, and to my single blade paddle.  This guy is into racing and doing upstream paddling to avoid shuttles and for the workout - his kayak (he's a boat dealer, has all kinds of boats) is better for that than his canoe.

I use a 9ft kayak paddle for my primary paddle in "most" conditions, with bent shaft as a back-up.

I don't disagree with SD or Mad_Mat, I don't worry about Karma( maybe I should), I just find the double paddle suits MY way of getting around.
I don't get to paddle as much as those guy's, once a year for 2 weeks, "maybe" some local weekend stuff.
I would say my canoe paddling skills are a C+, what I lack in technique, I usually can make up with power and endurance.
 The double paddle does work a different set of muscles and IF your a single paddler that spends more than 1 trip a year in a canoe, over the years  you've developed "muscle memory" from the constant repetitive single paddle strokes.
For me, and probably others that don't get as much time as we would like, whether re-learning the single or a double, the first few days are "awkward"  anyway.
I'm always amazed how better I feel and how smoothly I move along, the last few days, compared to the first one's.
 I got into the double paddle after my second solo trip, I ran into a Middle-age Canadian guy coming from Conk Lk, into Quetico Lk, heading for Beaverhouse take-out.
 The wind was strong that day, and he was heading directly into it, with his double paddle, just hauling the mail.
  He saw me and pulled along side. He was wearing a big strap-on back brace! I was really impressed, when he told me that he had started
on Basswood and that he was going in for MAJOR surgery when he got home.
I asked about the double paddle, he said that being a occasional kayak-er, he saw the "potential" in the double paddle for solo canoeing.
I laughed, and said the "traditionalist's" would be rolling over in their graves!
He said that he had been in a canoe since he was a little kid. He had a dozen canoes/kayaks between him/wife and kids. He raced them and did white water trips.
 He told me that providing you can adapt to the extra "load", that in "certain" conditions, like directly into or with a strong wind, you could really make time.
He also had bent shaft and used it like I do, for trolling, easy cruising, maneuvering in tight areas, fast currents.
 His attitude was that whatever worked best for YOU was all that mattered ;)
I figured if it was good enough for a guy like that, it was worth a try?
I tried it next trip and it worked for me. I work-out with the double paddle in mind, I don't find it more tiring or hard to get accustomed too, I'd have a relearning curve after a year off, no matter what I paddled with.
I wouldn't buy an expensive double paddle. Mine is made by Mohawk canoes, you need a 9 footer for canoe. I'd also try to learn the single paddle basics BEFORE getting into the double.
I see NO reason ( Karma a side) you can't use both IF it works for you :-/

I had the exact same experience as SD. On my first solo trip i was fully committed to a double blade to the tune of a couple hundred bucks. I forced myself to use it the entire first day from French Lake down to Cache Lake. I absolutely hated the unwieldy length on Baptism Creek and never did feel comfortable with it on open water either. About the middle of day two I went to my single blade back up and have never looked back. That expensive graphite double now gathers dust in my garage attic. FWIW, I am a lifelong canoer and have never really taken to the kayak thing. I'm embarrassed to say that I felt like a real klutz with the double.

Kingfisher wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 8:06pm:

I had the exact same experience as SD. On my first solo trip i was fully committed to a double blade to the tune of a couple hundred bucks.

KF was a lot more patient with the double-blade learning curve than me.  Then again, if I'd just invested $200 into a double-blade, I bet I would have been a lot more patient!

Snow_Dog wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 11:11pm:

Kingfisher wrote on Aug 17th, 2009 at 8:06pm: I had the exact same experience as SD. On my first solo trip i was fully committed to a double blade to the tune of a couple hundred bucks. KF was a lot more patient with the double-blade learning curve than me.  Then again, if I'd just invested $200 into a double-blade, I bet I would have been a lot more patient!

I'm committed, I spent a WHOLE $50 bucks on my double paddle ;)
The way I looked at it, with an available T-handle kit, the worse that would happen is I wound up with 2 back-up paddles 8-)

Do whatever you want!!!!  8-)  If a kayak paddle makes you smile, well go for it. Anyone who says different, needs to lighten up. I had a couple of guys in their mid 50's give me some bs about this very subject on LLC 2 years ago. One of them actually questioned if I knew how to paddle a solo. I smiled and in sign language made it clear he wasn't welcome on my island campsite. He had to take his break some where else.  ;D  

just for grins, I'll muddy the water a bit.

why limit your double blade paddling to a solo boat ? - if the double is so much better, why not use two in a tandem ?  I've seen that once, with an aluminum rental on Quetico Lake.  Yet, many of the same people who recommend a double blade (not necessarily on this site) have never recommended the use of double blades in a tandem canoe that I have ever seen.

Mad_Mat wrote on Aug 18^th, 2009 at 1:19pm:

just for grins, I'll muddy the water a bit. why limit your double blade paddling to a solo boat ? - if the double is so much better, why not use two in a tandem ?  I've seen that once, with an aluminum rental on Quetico Lake.  Yet, many of the same people who recommend a double blade (not necessarily on this site) have never recommended the use of double blades in a tandem canoe that I have ever seen.

Funny you should say that ;D
The first year I used double paddle, I only had a week, and hit really windy weather. Wound up getting as far as Jean Lk, and stayed there 2 days fishing it, Little Jean, and Ceph Lk.
When I hit the little bay after the portage into Jean, the wind was bad out of the East, and Jean was rolling in Whitecaps. I camped on makeshift site in little bay, as the popular point site was taken. Crossed over next morning before the wind whipped the lake into whitecaps again.
While lounging in my hammock, I looked out to see a tandem canoe going East down Jean, into the whitecaps at a unbelievable rate?
 I couldn't make them out very well, but something looked "amiss"?
Using my binoculars, I was pleasantly surprised too see the guys in the tandem were using 2 double paddles!
I use a cruising type stroke, they were using the big windmill type stroke you see kayakers use in certain conditions. They were perfectly in sync, and obviously had double paddle experience.
From the shore, it looked like they had a small motor on that canoe.
Turned out they were staying at the 5 star site on the point on west end of bay too. I didn't see any kayaks among the canoes of the group camped there, so I'm assuming they were using the double paddle like I would, and probably had singles as well?
I would of paddled over too ask, but it was late and the chop was up.
I crossed at first light, and never got a chance too see them or ask how they liked the double paddles?
I would be willing too bet, that 2 guys using the double paddle that had experience as kayakers, in a tandem canoe into the wind would out paddle 2 single paddlers assuming skill levels and loads were the same ;)

Thank you all for your advice.  It was/is very helpful and appreciated.  I plan to do some more demo paddling here at home and see if I can find a paddle on the cheap and the right size.  Previously mentioned was a 9 ft length.  I am 6'4" with long arms and a normal length torso - I know that there are several types of paddling styles (low angle/high angle etc.), but is a 220, 230, 240 cm size my range?  Also, how does paddling with that extended arm motion affect the shoulders of older and younger paddlers?  I'm 36 and have no shoulder injuries yet-knock on wood. I don't know if that is even a valid concern.

CS,
I got the 9 ft( 274+ cm) length from an Internet search about paddling a canoe with a double paddle. You need the extra length for canoe, even a solo being wider than a kayak?
I'm using it in a 16 ft SR tandem, paddling backward from the front seat.
One year when I was with another guy, I got the "bright" idea to bring a cheap 8 ft kayak paddle I bought at garage sale to see how it worked.
I was the stern guy. Even with me being 5'9" and normal length arms, I was constantly banging the gunwales, unless I used the high angle paddle.
My Internet search talked about that, and recommended for a tandem paddle solo, or a TRUE solo canoe, the 9 ft was the way to go.
Your sitting much higher in a canoe, even if you kneel to paddle. However your pretty tall, and with your long arms, it might or might not be the right length for you?
I researched kayak strokes as I knew nothing about them. From what I could find, the best stroke for me and my steady endurance style of tripping, was the low angle, or what I call the touring stroke.
As others have mentioned, a double is harder on you physically. If you can't paddle steady for an extended time with a single paddle at a decent clip, you won't do very well with a double.
But the good news is that your ONLY 36 ;) Just a baby! I'm 60, and have ZERO shoulder problems. If you do the work, push-ups/inverted push-ups (feet on step/chair, dips for triceps, Lateral raises for shoulders, one arm rows, things for upper back and shoulders, plus some CORE work, you should be fine. The first long day I used double paddle, it wasn't my shoulders/upper back or arms that were sore the next day, it was my abs/and hip region! When your in a steady rhythm in the TOURING stroke, your using your abs and hips to help power the stroke on each side. I set my packs, so they act as a foot brace, this will allow you to get more power in your stroke. I found that unless your going into a stiff headwind, you don't have to "dig" your paddle blades in that hard. Sort of like peddling in the right gear on a bike, a balance between stroke speed and "power". When you hit that "sweet spot", you feel like your hardly working, yet your moving along at a good clip. You don't want to exaggerate the extended motion with your arms. Never LOCK your arms out at the end of a stroke, it just hurts your elbow joint.
If you can find a place on the water that sells kayak paddles, you should be able to try different ones, and find the right length for you. I'm guessing the kayak guys have some kind of "formula" for figuring paddle length to boat width and paddler size?
 After all that, you may decide the double ISN'T for you, but you don't know till you try ;)
If it works out, there's a guy on here that might make you a good deal on a nice carbon fiber paddle ;D

ST

Tonite i visited my local paddle shop and paddled a Prism with a 240 cm kayak paddle.  I felt like it was fluid and had no trouble with stroke - i.e. hitting gunwales, knees, knuckles, etc.  Granted, it was only for about 15-20 min. with mild wind. I'm sure a long day would mean tired arms and shoulders.  I was told that kayak paddles are measured only by the diatance between the blades, so just the shaft of the paddle itself stopping where the neck of the blade meets the shaft.  How are you measuring your paddle? They had one kayak paddle that was 280cm shaft length, in my opinion way too big for a solo and i'm sure awkward to carry.

CS

C_S,

My double was made by/for Mohawk Canoes, and was sold as a double CANOE paddle, not a Kayak Paddle for canoes. They still make Mohawk canoes, but don't know if the still sell paddles?
It's 9 ft, tip to tip. Mine is aircraft aluminum, with a plastic paddle.
The paddle tip is similar to the aluminum type paddles you'd use on whitewater river paddling.
It's very stiff, no noticeable flex in shaft, but obviously heavier than a single paddle or a upscale kayak paddle, that has the tapers type paddle blade and graphite shaft. It can be set for a feathered or conventional angle.
I wanted something affordable and rugged, this filled the bill.
I double portage, heaviest pack and day pack first, then lightest pack and canoe. I use the double paddle as a 3rd leg when needed. It's saved me from falling many a time. In camp, I even used as 2 fly poles for my tarp, when the tree selection was farther away than I liked. End of trip, I have to smooth out any nicks or cuts in blade, and maybe put a bevel on the edge. For $50 it can't be beat.
Of course being lighter is a big plus, but rugged counts for something too?
I just wouldn't spend a bundle, until you KNOW the double paddle is for you?
 280cm between blades plus another 2 ft or so of blade would be about 11 ft or so overall. The 240cm shaft measure, plus blades is closer to the 9 ft OVERALL that I use. Just for the heck if it, measure the 240cm, tip to tip? Should be pretty close ;)

I'm a new guy here, but thought I'd throw in my 2cents worth.  Like someone else who replied above, I use one of those $50 Mohawk double blade paddles on my solo trips.  I paddle a tandem canoe, but I may well use the double blade if I had a solo canoe as well.  It just feels right to me, and I feel like I can really move along when I want.  I always mean to take the paddle apart and set it up as a single for trolling, but I never seem to even do that.  

As far as being a traditionalist goes...it seems to me that I heard of some of the early trappers (1800's) using double blade paddles at times.  I'm not certain about that, but I've heard it more than once.

BTW, seems like a nice BB!

Chuck

FWIW,
I paddle a Bell Magic. I use a Bending Branches bent shaft, and I won't leave home without it. I feel comfortable with it on lakes, streams, calm or choppy. I appreciate the tradition. (I also use a traditional Duluth pack.) That said, a couple years ago I was enticed by a kayak. Did the whole test paddle routine and finally made a purchase. I also spent some time with a very experienced yakker who taught me the do's & don'ts. Surprise, surprise...there is a proper technique for a double blade just as there is for a single. There's a learning curve, just as for the single. (I should mention that I have an 18 ft. touring kayak, not a 9 ft. plastic whitewater playboat) So when I started using the kayak paddle with my Magic, it didn't seem awkward.
I spent 8 days in Quetico this summer, and used the kayak paddle 90% of the time. I   was able to very easily keep pace with a tandem.
I guess the bottom line for me is: it is just like learning to use any other piece of equipment. Am I less of a traditionalist because I use a stove instead of a wood fire? A nylon tent instead of a canvas? Modern fabrics instead of wool? I  think not.
Give the double blade an honest effort. If you like it, use it. If you don't, abandon it.
Respect others' choices, but do what works best for you. And just have a good time!
;D Wind-in-Face
PS. Fishing is strictly a single blade job!! (At least for me)

Wind-In-Face
Good reply and it echoes my sentiments.

Paddling with a double blade is not a religion you do not need to take it on faith you can see for your self.  But don’t stand up in a canoe and walk around in it until you flip it over then claim these things are too dangerous to use because they tip over. If you learn how to use a canoe or a double blade you might like them or not.

To add to WIF’s PS
Single blades are better for winding narrow creeks.
Single blades are better for getting near wild life.

MagicPaddler
PS.   It has been suggested by members of this board that I change my board name to Evil Twin.

Mostly I use the bentshaft as primary and a 9 foot double-blade as back-up (it also detaches into two pieces & doubles as the support structure for my lean-to style tenting arrangement).  If I'm in rough conditions, you can bet the bentshaft will be in my hands... not necessarily because it is better but rather due to confidence that comes with practice.  With more practice, I might feel more comfortable & secure with the double-blade in rough water.  We'll see.

On the other hand, if SPEED is desired & conditions are right, I'll make my time with the double-blade.  You feel like you're flying when you get the rhythm of both those blades going!  It's also a pretty good upper-body workout and takes some getting-used to.

If you are looking for an inexpensive, sturdy, two-piece double-blade option (not necessarily all that "light", however), you should check out Spring Creek Outfitters offerings (see:   (You need to Login or Register).  I went the cheap route just to get started & I'm pretty happy with my selection.

Good luck!

Jimbo   8-)

I have a Wenonah Wilderness, and I paddle it with a double blade...  I started with a 60" Bending Brandes Beavertail that I use in my tandem.  I was overpowering the canoe with that particular paddle, unless I dropped  my stroke count and paddled easy.  I then purchased a Bending Branches 7 Degree bent shaft, and loved it, although I could still over power and have problems tracking if I got in a hurry.  The first time I tried the Double Blade, I had problems with it, but then at first my Wilderness was tippy too!  I finally overcame it, and have used it paddling many miles on local creeks, rivers, and rapids.  I have also paddled it a lot on open lakes with ease, once you get use to the motion of the stroke it is easy to pace yourself and stay on course, you can also go fast with it when you need to.  Right now I have been using a double that is too short simply because that  is what I have, when funds permit, I will have either one from Spring Creek or a Bending Branches 280cm canoe paddle.   I also use the double fishing with no problem.  I have yet to bring it north and solo with it, but that day is coming too.  

I have used both and both have their place in paddling, depending on the person paddling...

Bruce