Is it just me or is this becoming a noticeable trend? It used to be the best fireplaces were built high and most had at least one side open to allow feeding and airflow for cooking w/o so many unnecessary rocks you had to reach too far to get to it. More and more it seems once nice fireplaces are being dismantled and turned into big fat piles, at best rings - many of which hold big punky partially burnt logs and various garbage. They are often near a growing pile of unwelcome punk and green branches.

What I'm wondering is, are stoves robbing us of a common heritage, our fire making for cooking skills? If you want something to burn thereby providing heat and light, why sink it a foot or two deep in a ring of rocks two/three feet thick? We all tweak fireplaces to fit our own needs but one ring I encountered this year (dubbed Camp Willy Nilly) was so big that after I cleaned it out, I found two, maybe 9" rocks to hold my 24" grill and easily set them inside the ring. It was so big it already provided the needed airflow and I could feed it foot+ long wood w/ relative ease from both sides. I had to step into and straddle the previous ring to get close enough to pour and flip pancakes but it worked.

Why would I even consider a campsite I didn't like you ask? The first one I stopped at was trashed. It's one I stayed at on an early solo. the fireplace at that time, well I sat right next to it and fed it twigs within reach late into the night listening to a bird sing. The second (big 5 star we liked 20 years ago) had toilet paper in the fireplace and lots of it.  (No I didn't investigate further, just turned my back and left.) The third, well, it wasn't so great and wood was scarce. The forth wasn't the thing of beauty I remember when I first stumbled across it years ago. The fifth was the best of all I surveyed on the lake, it was after 7 and I had fillets bagged from earlier that morning plus I like fire.

It is what it is, I know that but it doesn't seem right to me. Maybe it's because I just felt like cooking over the fire more than usual this year.

I guess I'm the problem db,  ;)

I don't usually build fires on my solo trips, even in Oct. Group trips in spring, I may build one during the trip just to show how cooking over a fire works to newbies. But if I'm doing the cooking, I'd rather use a stove.

Oct/solo I'll light a candle lantern under a tarp,,,my yellow tarp glows and reflects light nicely,,,slip on a headlamp and read a good book outside till it's time to head to the tent.

So I don't look to see if there's a firering or not when I camp. But this fall I've got some guys going along and we'll probably use fireplaces. Be interesting to see how much extra time and effort it takes. I know some people, not you db, worry about their manhood and using fire only. I guess I'm pretty secure and not worried about it. Others really enjoy a fire,,,I do too,,,it's just takes work and I choose to save my energy for other things.

That's my 2 cents.  8-)

I'm thinking it's a combination of things.
Part of it is probably the lack of fire making/cooking skills, or the lack of interest in a campfire for time/effort reasons.
I also think "some" view elaborate "fireplaces" as not keeping with the no trace idea or maybe too elaborate, like the sites that have "camp furniture" and cooking areas made from rocks and dead logs.
I've seen fire pits that were torn apart down to a couple of rings like you describe. I might not take the effort to build a real functional "fireplace", but I wouldn't tear down anyone's effort either.
 I cook on stove, except for grilling fish. Having a nightly campfire, especially in early spring, is just a must have for me. Even if its real small and smoky, something about tending a fire, just makes the end of a good day, even better.
 Man has been building fireplaces and "camp furniture" for eons. I don't have a problem with Native materials being used, as long as it doesn't include cutting green timber.  Here's an "Elaborate Fireplace" from Quetico Lk.
 I'm much more offended by the garbage left in camp/fireplace, especially the TP and Human waste left in the camp area.
 I just can't wrap my mind around how ANYONE would think that was okay too do >:(
 Are these people THAT big of pigs, that they go in their own campsite, or are they people who stop at a empty site and use it as a bathroom?
 I bet some of these people are the ones that are offended by an elaborate/functional fireplace, thinking it ruins the "wild factor" for them.
 Here's a real nice fireplace on Quetico Lk!  Tour guide looks familar too ;D     (You need to Login or Register   (You need to Login or Register

I do think fire-making and fire-cooking are dying arts. It's not an issue of manhood, but as issue of old vs. new, something timeless vs. recent technological developments.

Many in my age group view fires as a disturbance, something bad and scary, and something that doesn't fit the LNT guidelines (which is malarkey, if they're done right). Personally, I think it's more a result of persistent marketing - of course REI-type places will say fires are bad, because why build a *free* fire when you can purchase a space-age titanium stove for $150? And then there's the fuel, and the expensive aluminum containers, repair kits, and parts...

There's a certain "image" out there, created by ad-based outdoor magazines and store catalogs, which portrays the "new" saavy outdoorsperson as the one with all the latest clothing, gear, and technology... and not the guy out there using old skills. Look around at these catalogs and publications, and in very few places (if any) will you find pictures of people around campfires, or stories about fire-making.

Browse through the freelance photo submission requirements for Backpacker Magazine or a similar ad-based publication, and you'll find that they *require* that people in the photos have water bottles in pack slots, etc., basically as much gear as can be fit in the frame, because their magazine is in the business of helping their advertisers sell gear. I don't fault them for it, but it's helping foster the idea that getting outdoors is about gear and the comforts, not about the human experience.

I admit that stoves are handy, and make getting hot food into the belly a lot faster after a long day, but there's something about a fire that just can't be replaced by anything else. A fire is a tool, a friend, a light, a source of warmth, and something that is created by one's own hands out of 'nothing.'

As for the large, elaborate firepits... I don't know. A product of boredom, probably. And the piles of green branches fresh cut from the trees within the campsites... a product of simply not knowing any better. I imagine that for some, the B/Q is the only place a fire is built all year.

As for the garbage and TP in the pits... I don't think I need to get into how I feel about THOSE people...

Long live the fire and the fire-makers.

I'm a slacker and if you don't build the firepit...then I certainly won't.

I like a fire...and am going to sit by one right now at home...but only because my wife made it.  I'm lazy as heck and can't see the energy expenditure for a firepit.  When soloing...I just sit in the dark.

I like fire.

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;D What's funny is my manhood was indeed challenged this trip but because my trusty stove wasn't working so well. It required pumping every so often hence the more traditional fire desire. Nice to have backup.

Years ago I got laughed at for the better part of a week for bringing my brand new stove and enough freeze dried for six. Redundant! Then one night all was forgiven as they came out of their tents one by one for the best meal (Mandarin Orange Chicken) they ever had. The stove, the tarp, the chicken and even I became the object of many toasts around a fire that never would had been built w/o the fuel, as in calories and therefore mood the stove provided.

I like fire in general but even more on solos. I'm a night owl and consider a fire to be fair notice to all the larger than me creatures not to accidentally step on me and to stay out of camp until I'm all tucked in for the night. I'll sometimes sleep under the tarp and consider it's footprint my personal space once the fire dies. ;)

  (You need to Login or Register. It's a bit deep horizontally so for cooking I'd find two grill worthy rocks to set on that beautiful hearth. The next person to use that campsite would probably wonder what the  I was thinking and remove them but at least there wouldn't be any foil hidden underneath.

I like fire so much there's even a Quetico style fireplace in my suburban back yard. We use it fairly often and everyone loves it. I hate picking out my mother in laws cigarette buts but the first experienced Quetico tripper to see it commented something like "Nice, wait, where does the grill go." (Two cinder blocks a on a raised base would satisfy the cook in me.)

Traveling through many of the same areas for so long I choose campsites to aim for based on weather and what distinctive amenities would be favored by it. Personally I think all campsites should have two fireplaces, one for fair weather and one for foul. (Or is it fowl as in duck? ;)) If the kitchen gets direct sunlight for the senior special that's usually a strike. Morning sun is always a big hit.

wally wrote on Sep 13^th, 2009 at 1:11am:

I'm a slacker and if you don't build the firepit...then I certainly won't. I like a fire...and am going to sit by one right now at home...but only because my wife made it.  I'm lazy as heck and can't see the energy expenditure for a firepit.  When soloing...I just sit in the dark.

 Just you and your 10lb bag of candy ;D
I would think a fire would be a necessity to keep Yogi Bear from pilfering your sweet tooth stash :'(

I like campfires, and usually have a fire.

I don't like numerous firepits, or outrageously large fire pits.  Many pits, or large fire pit structures are part of my equation of a campsite that is "pounded."  

I try to leave a campsite better off than when I came, which often includes dismantling firepits if there are many on the site, and digging out all the ash/crap that accumulates in them over time.  I understand some may not think that is improving a campsite.  

I came upon a large site in the Woodland Caribou Park a few years ago that had about 7 fire pits!  Crazy!

The campsite lily problem is REALLY a disgusting problem in the QP, and I think the Park Sup't knows it.   I hope the TP exchange program they began this year (giving campers biodegradable TP in exchange for their TP when they check into the Park) will begin to solve this problem.  

While the BWCA sites get pounded just by sheer volume of use, my very unscientific observation is that QP sites on main travel routes are actually more trashed than in the BWCA...garbage, litter, etc.  The campsite on the island just off the Black Robe Portage in my mind is the poster site for a trashed site.  I've cleaned it up twice, but now just won't stay there.  

prouboy

Thanks db...I was able to get our fireplace images into the photo gallery, but too ignorant to figure out how to get them into a post.  I still don't know how, but at least I know it can be done!   :)

Anyway, the reason I wanted to post those images (if you are curious, they are listed in db's post above) is because we too have become increasingly aware of the poor fireplace building and general disregard for camps period in the Q.  The past three years, we have actually made it a mission each year to destruct the rock pile fireplaces we come across, clean them out by removing the ash and packing out the garbage, and then rebuild them.  The one "unatural" thing we do is to find a large mantle rock that takes three or four of us to carry and then build the pit around it.  Doing this, we hope somewhat wishfully, that others who follow will appreciate the well-built pit and not destroy it by heaping another pile of rocks on it (...note I said wishfully...).  Anyway, I guess we feel it is our way of giving back to the Q and is actually kind of a fun way to spend our donwtime between fishing forays.

Bart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2009 at 9:19pm:

The past three years, we have actually made it a mission each year to destruct the rock pile fireplaces we come across, clean them out by removing the ash and packing out the garbage, and then rebuild them.  The one "unatural" thing we do is to find a large mantle rock that takes three or four of us to carry and then build the pit around it.

Good Lord!  It would take a pound of candy for me to even attempt something like that.  Where do you guys get all the energy? ;D

I'll take the dark.

wally wrote on Sep 14^th, 2009 at 2:50am:

Bart wrote on Sep 13th, 2009 at 9:19pm: The past three years, we have actually made it a mission each year to destruct the rock pile fireplaces we come across, clean them out by removing the ash and packing out the garbage, and then rebuild them.  The one "unatural" thing we do is to find a large mantle rock that takes three or four of us to carry and then build the pit around it. Good Lord!  It would take a pound of candy for me to even attempt something like that.  Where do you guys get all the energy? ;D I'll take the dark.

10 lbs of candy, a few adult beverages, that's 10 fireplace re-models ;)
The thought of you sitting all alone in the dark? Well that's just down right depressing and a little bit creepy ;D

Actually, it is surprising what energy and strength 10lbs of candy corn and peanuts chased with a few shots of Tequila can do :o

for all you fire lovers....


YOU WILL COME TO THE DARK SIDE....
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I've spent many a night staring into the glowing coals, deep in thought, but full of peace. For that connection, the 'effort' is well worth it.  If the smoke keeps the bugs at bay, so much the better.

Quote:

for all you fire lovers....

Only if I get too wear the cool outfit and Princess Leia is sitting in the dark with me ;D

My husband and I took 2 extended trips this year, and fire pits were a real issue.  We cook most of our suppers over a small fire with a small packable grill, and most of the firepits had become un-usable (over built, full of garbage and unburned wet logs.  When we entered for our second trip, we were given a Littlebug wood stove to try out and critique. It was awesome; takes very little wood, boiled water in less than three minutes, and we could add wood to create enough coals for doing a creditable job of frying fish, baking bannock, etc.  It burns wood down to a scant handful of fine ash; easy to dispose of.  On one island on Beaverhouse Lake, the firepit was completely unusable; we set our Littlebug on a flat rock, enjoyed a fine supper, and enough of a "campfire" to enjoy the rising full moon.  When we departed, it took minutes to clean up and leave no trace.

It seems like there is violent agreement about firepits as a problem in the QP (too big, too many, too trashed...)

I wonder if any one has ever commented to the Park, in a letter, verbally, or as a comment during their planning process about this problem.  Seems like this is a concern they'd like to, or at least should, know about.  

prouboy

Puckster wrote on Sep 15^th, 2009 at 11:39pm:

It seems like there is violent agreement about firepits as a problem in the QP (too big, too many, too trashed...) I wonder if any one has ever commented to the Park, in a letter, verbally, or as a comment during their planning process about this problem.  Seems like this is a concern they'd like to, or at least should, know about.   prouboy

Violent agreement???  Really?  So far it's you and wildernesswendy that make up the "Violent agreement"?  (I'm not clear what violence has to do with this though.  I think you mean "vehement" but it's still not accurate)  There is no fire-pit crisis folks.  If you don't like a fire-pit at your campsite, move it, take it down, whatever.  Its a pile of rocks people.  But, this is the typical response from the "Flower pot" crowd.  Rather than just doing something about it and silently moving on they feel it their duty to call who's ever in charge, form a committee, write some more rules, raise the price, restrict the use, play bureaucrat and then pat themselves on the back for "saving us" . . . . . . . from the fire-pit crisis.

I don't like big, ugly, or multiple fire pits either.  But rather than going "political" how about just shaking your head, shrugging your shoulders, rolling up the sleeves, put on some leather gloves and start tossing boulders back to where they came from.  Do we really want BW style fire grates in the Q?  Not me.

Sorry Mike, but I have to disagree with your assesment and solution on this matter.

I'm with PJ. We had a fire each morning for our coffee and breakfast, evening for our dinner and after dark enjoyment. Each of the sites we stayed at had very nice firepits, some had one for cooking and one away from the site on a point for evening festivities. If the pit is filled or overbuilt, fix it and leave it better than when you found it. We had two stoves along in case weather prevented a fire but they never got used. Something about a campfire for cooking and enjoying. I do not have the opportunity to enjoy one at home so a good fire is always high on the list for camping. Just my opinion.

J

Back to db's original post ... which I found a timely topic.

Just returned from 8 days in Quetico. We stayed in the interior as long as we could, then did a marathon paddle on next-to-last day to get to campsite near border for early morning departure. Pulled up to familiar island not long before dusk and found the comfortable old firepit (the high, three-sided kind perfect for cooking) had been destroyed by previous campers and reassembled into three creations -- a monstrous fire ring, full of partially burned green logs; a jumble of rocks, stuffed with partially burned green sticks; and a pile of "extra" rocks -- all erected right in the middle of the campsite.

We struggled not to be annoyed.

One, we do almost all our cooking over a fire, so it required a rebuilding session.

Two, this firepit had seemingly been there since the days of the pictographs, and destroying it had -- at least to me -- damaged the charactor of the campsite. I've always found the firepit to be the symbolic as well as physical center of camp. Stay in the Quetico long enough, and you get familiar with certain pits -- those with ledges for cups and spoons, those that "draw" well or that block the wind, those built around massive stones that signify the strength of Quetico as a place.

And three, we spent part of our night burning previously charred logs, not to mention the sock and other garbage strewn all over.

So, db, I hope this practice -- of eschewing the leave-no-trace philosophy in favor of one that encourages tearing down and remaking established campsites to fit your needs -- is not a trend. (And my point is NOT directed at previous posters who described tearing down, cleaning out and rebuilding, or those who deconstruct in order to "tame down" the bonfire-enabling monstrosities. More power and gratitude to them, I say.)

And as to the fire vs. stove discussion ... I say to each his own.

I personally like a fire, and have myriad memories of individual fires. Oddly, the most vivid memories are not of quiet nights and quiet conversation, sipping small-batch Kentucky bourbon and solving the problems of the world -- though those are indeed peaceful times that I treasure -- but of campfires on stormy days that emboldened me to proverbially shout my defiance to the elements.

How can I ever forget just barely getting to Blueberry Island in freezing rain driven by wind gusts that actually blew me sideways across the lake a time or two, and then finding warmth in a fire fueled by the only dry wood we could find -- shreds chopped out of the middle of a dead and decaying pine. The pot of hastily compiled chili has become almost a legendary dish in our minds, so much so that we pack chili ingredients every trip, whether we eat it or not.

Or the fire on a Russell Lake campsite, as we huddled over plates of smallmouth and steaming cheesy pasta, protecting them from the rain that rolled down our hoods and ballcaps like waterfalls.

Or the fire on Sarah Lake we had to relight after it was put out by hail that piled up like snow all around us.  

Or on Jeff Lake in late October, after a long slog through a beaver stream. That fire -- though small -- consumed an inordinate amount of wood, as we had to feed it seemingy every few minutes.

Funny how recalling those fires enables me to recreate meals, weather, camaraderie, even entire days -- not to mention thoughts and feelings.

Sig Olson said the campfires he'd built during years of roaming the wilds seemed like "glowing beads in a long chain of experience."

He said when he blew softly on those glowing beads, they'd burst into a bright flame of memory that allowed him to mentally recapture the scenes of his past.

I personally can't get that same effect with a meal cooked on a stove, tasty tho it is.

-- kypaddler
 

I guess I'm just not as "spiritual" with camp fire's as some.  I have no burning beads or magic moments around a fire.  (Except my house fire in 2002 - I remember that one)

I would wager that the same people who leave TP, garbage and green wood around their site are the same folks who build the backyard Bar-B-Q's.

We used to cook over the fire but never again (well, maybe a baked trout once per trip).  I don't know how to meaasure the amount of wood we burn but it is minimal; perhaps one good arm-load a night?  We do tweek the fire-pit though.  (And remove the impromptu rock rings if any)  Some that we "made" on Jean and Kasa are still there from the early 90's.  Get the higher side facing NW and the open side to the SW with a little air channel on each side = long burn, smoke going up and good heat.

PJ,
I think your description of a direction oriented, well built "fireplace" probably helps explain at least some of the overbuilt/poorly built monstrosities and the subsequent attempts to rebuild or modify them.
I don't claim too be a fire building expert by any stretch of the imagination, but a few things are universal.
You need a source of fuel (dry if at all possible). A ignition source (match/lighter/ what have you. AND, and many people don't realize this, a proper flow of air (oxygen) to complete the combustion cycle.
 I also like a "dry" base in the fire pit, a wet base full of char, will draw moisture making a smoky hard to keep going fire. That's where a trowel is nice to clean out the pit. Sometimes I will take a flat rock, and build my fire base on that, if the ground is so saturated it's a problem.
 I have gotten into serious "discussions" paddling with others and in "social" situations at home here, about the need for a "draft" in your fire pit. Many people "think" a fire-ring that has almost zero draft is a good thing. They think draft equals blowing the fire out. When they struggle ALL day to keep or get a decent fire, they're amazed when I pull out a "strategically" placed rock, get a proper draft and the fire springs into life. Same thing on canoe trips with the same people, I would get my "blow-pipe" out, or fan the fire with a plate, it would burst into flame and they get the idea you need air for a proper fire.
 I've seen rebuilt fire-pits that were like 1/2 oak barrel planters in the ground. No allowance for air flow. These always seem to be the one's full of half burned trash, green logs or half burnt firewood. I'm sure  the builders/users thought it was the Weather conditions that precluded a decent fire :(  You get a fire pit built the right way, a decent "base" of hot coals and a fuel source that doesn't overwhelm the fire, you can keep it going in the worst wind and rain, something that gives a nice feeling of accomplishment and self satisfaction ;)

PJ,

A house fire in '02? Oh my, I'm afraid to ask.

-- kypaddler

Typo; it was '03.

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PJ,

Not to stir back up the proverbial ashes, but I went back and read your 2003 post and believe it deserves some acknowledgement.

What a loss.

If I came home to find I'd lost my journals, maps, pictures, hunting clothes, guns and gear that have been with me year in and year out, many of them presents, I'd be in a funk for years.

My (belated) sympathies.

-- kypaddler

And to echo others, it's a blessing no one was hurt. My mother lost her mother in a fire when she was just a small child. My father's family lost every single thing they owned when -- the night they moved in to a new house -- it burned to the ground with all their possessions and pets. Ugh.

I just got back from a short trip into the BWCA, (Snowbank, Parent, Disappointment, Adventure, Jordan, Ima, Thomas, Kiana, Insula, Lake 1,2,3) and snapped this shot of a "fire grate" we encountered at a site on Lake 2.  I should have tore it down, but will admit that I was lazy and moved on after a quick lunch break.  


prouboy

---

That's just pathetic!
I don't know what kind of "orientation" they give you when you go in the BWCA, but if it DOESN'T include some fire building "etiquette", then maybe it should?
Of course the people who do this type of thing are probably not the kind you can "educate".
 When I find a spot like that in the Q, if the site is nice except for something like that, I'll clean up and saw/split wood for the next guy.
I don't ditch logs in the woods, because the same type mental morons who did it the last time will do it the next :(

What does one expect from Lakes 1 - 4?

That's one reason why I go to Quetico rather than BW. Not that Quetico is immune, but more people = more chance of abusers.

Reminds me of something I saw on Ken Burn's PBS special: maybe we are in danger of loving the BW to death.

WiF

I'm coming late to the discussion. There are lots of thoughts above I'd echo. I like cooking over the open fire, with a modest fire ring with good draft.

Maybe this exposes me as a crusty old SOB, but I think the "troubles" many of us have with trash and thoughtlessness is akin to trash thrown out of vehicles, soda bottles dropped along the sidewalk (a significant feature of the university campus where I taught), a general "someone will pick it up" attitude. Dozens of times I've picked up soda bottles and deposited them in the re-cycle bins only a few feet from where the bottle was dropped. There's a sort of social pathology here.

Yeah, I am exposed as a crusty old man. Oh, well. Some of you knew that.

Tim

Yup, I knew that.   ;)  But a lovable crusty old man, at any rate.   ;D

Neal, there is a pretty decent "orientation" for trips to the BWCA and it mentions making a small fire within the fire grate.  But the same mentality that allows people to leave TP blossoms near a campsite in the Q or build silly huge fireplaces that you guys like to dismantle is alive and well in the BW as well.  There are jerks everywhere--unfortunately they just let MORE of them into the BW!

And PJ, I could also mention that we took a Lakes 1-4 trip a couple of years ago and never once saw a mess at a campsite.  Were out for 8 days, I believe.  Didn't pick up anyone's trash, rework anyone's fire site, or find any campsite that was anything other than overused and loved to death.  We were back there after about a 30-year absence and I was surprised to see that it looked remarkably the same.

We just finished a little short (6-day) trip out of Sawbill at the end of August/early September and I expected to find a lot of trash and mess at the campsites in that busy area.  Picked up garbage at one lunch site and that was literally all of it.  The sites were in beautiful condition, overall.  

There are exceptions.  The BW is overused.  But no, the example Mike cited isn't what I "expect".  Even at Lakes 1-4.  You can still do a beautiful canoe trip there.

Lynda, I figured they must have something, of course as a ex-teacher you know more than anyone, that you can't learn IF you ALREADY think you know it all.  

 A_A,
We need MORE crusty old SOB's telling like it is, I don't know the "AGE" requirement for the position, but I'm thinking it's as much about the right attitude as the years ;) Of course being a grey bearded crusty SOB, gives you the "proper" look!  Clint Eastwood in the UNFORGIVEN has it down pat!

The local park I exercise in has a 6 ft dog leash law on the trails, and provides bags for cleaning up the poo. Almost every time I'm out there, I end up "educating/infuriating" someone who thinks the rules apply for the OTHER guy.

I used to walk by, but now I say something. The people that take it well, either were honestly unaware, or know their in the wrong, and embarrassed that someone confronted them.

Then there are the one's, young/old who not only KNOW their doing wrong, they don't care and will argue and verbally threaten me for asking them to obey the rules.
I have a big puncture scar on my right forearm, front and back, from my UPS driver days. A Ladies Great Dane that she didn't have control over, clamped on me, and caused serious nerve damage, which to this day, still bothers me. Of COURSE she told me her dog had never bit anyone, and I must of done something wrong :-?

 When the leash-less dog owners start up about THEIR dog being harmless/won't bite anyone, I show them my scar!!
 That and my telling them I'll turn them in a ranger station and they'll lose park privileges, works with 99% of them.

The other 1 % just walk off in a huff, and I turn them in. The park employees/rangers all know me, and since their shorthanded do too budget shortfalls, don't have a problem with me saying something.

I find the older I get, the less apt I'm too tolerate bad behavior, especially when people consciously flaunt the rules. I guess you get too a point in your life, where you just can't take it anymore ;D
 Must be those CRUSTY SOB years ;)

Spartan2 wrote on Sep 30^th, 2009 at 11:00am:

And PJ, I could also mention that we took a Lakes 1-4 trip a couple of years ago and never once saw a mess at a campsite.  Were out for 8 days, I believe.  Didn't pick up anyone's trash, rework anyone's fire site, or find any campsite that was anything other than overused and loved to death.  We were back there after about a 30-year absence and I was surprised to see that it looked remarkably the same. We just finished a little short (6-day) trip out of Sawbill at the end of August/early September and I expected to find a lot of trash and mess at the campsites in that busy area.  Picked up garbage at one lunch site and that was literally all of it.  The sites were in beautiful condition, overall.

Hi Lynda -- hope you're doing well.  3 of my 4 canoe trips this year were in the BWCA, (1 in the QP).  I found the BWCA, while definitely overused, was surprisingly litter and trash free.  Way too many people on portages, but again, I was impressed with the cleanliness of the place.  It made me optimistic that people care, despite the few idiots who do things we all remember.  

prouboy

Solotripper:

Man, are we on the same page! Unforgiven is one of my favorite movies. Lot's like the Louis L'Amour novels -- the good guys are clear and in time they come out on top.

Used to have a Great Dane and they are great pets. Dane and I were walking down the street one day, my dog on a leash and under absolute control -- partly discipline and partly choke chain. A dog came boiling out of a house, smashed through the screen door, and my Dane simply knocked the other dog to the ground and stood there. Guys comes out of the house furious that my dog knocked his dog down. My dog, in the meantime, is simply standing next to me.

Many years ago I was running along the edge of a golf course in Reston, Virginia. Two standard poodles came over a berm, hot for my bod. I faced them, yelled as loud as I could, and made them back off. Lady came over the berm and yelled at me for intimidating her dogs.

You are right. Persons who own dogs need to keep them under control.

Guess I've been a crusty SOB lots longer than I have been a crusty old SOB.

Tim

P. S. Thanks to all who have posted here and given me an opportunity to vent my spleen!

A_A,
 I guess I'm nostalgic for a simpler time, or maybe a time when your WORD was your bond and right and wrong weren't blurred by shades of grey. I know some still feel this way, but not enough too stem the tide.

 My Dad taught me that a mans word was bond, just about the most precious personal item you had. He did business for years after he retired, he like too repair lawn mowers and other small engine items. He charged them 1/3 to 1/2 what  shop would of, and did way more for the money.
 Never had anyone sign a work order, he gave them an estimate, they said yes or no, and he did the job for that, even if he lost money on it.
 All his customers were old school crusty SOB, like Dad. He never had ANY problems until the younger guys (  Boomer age), came around.
THEY had a problem with everything and wanted warranties on repairs to old equipment that most of the shops wouldn't even touch :-?
 After awhile, DAD just said the hell with it, and really retired! Same summer a big storm dropped a big old oak tree in his yard. We cut it up into logs and stacked it near road with a sign " FREE FIREWOOD-TAKE WITH.  Later that week some Boomer age yuppie stopped and asked about the FREE wood? Dad said the sign said it all?
The guy had the NERVE too ask my 75 year Dad who walked with a cane, if he would SPLIT the wood, so he could take it for FREE :(
 Dad ran him out of the yard, and made me come over and haul all the wood too a friends house who burned it over the winter.
 Yup, things have changed, and not always for the better!

Your dad and my dad, cut from the same stock. Starting in 8th grade I began to work for Dad -- doing carpenter work. Spartan 1 & 2 can see a house we built at the corner of Parma Road and Pope Church Road. We never had a contract. Folks asked us to build a house and we did.

Here I am, all these years later, still operating on the same work order and finding most folks don't know what I'm talking about. Oh well.

Tim  

ummmmmmmm.. yea, we'are a bunch of crusty ol dude"ettes"..but what about the terible Q fireplaces :question

the fact that the BW appears to be overused yet cleaner than Q either supports the fact that latrines and firegrates attract a more civilized clientel, or ones that Bit-zith less , or...our tax dollars are keeping the BW way more cleaner---thank you portage crews :-*

ummm...db...I really need a spell chequer?


'

Spell check - Safari has one built in or maybe it's system based.... I recall the Google toolbar for Firefox and probly Explorer has one.

Fireplaces - So how many time does a person try to get birch that size that to burn, especially in that manner? How does anyone know when something that size is truly out? How tall are the BW grates? Is it acceptable/reasonable to build a small ambiance type fire on top of them?

I'll get off the lawn now....  ;D

db wrote on Oct 1^st, 2009 at 6:29am:

Spell check - Safari has one built in or maybe it's system based.... I recall the Google toolbar for Firefox and probly [probably] Explorer has one.

The Google tool bar on IE DOES have a spell checker.

dd

You can download a FREE spell checker here, it's what I use.

  (You need to Login or Register

;D What we need are more mind reading, contextual spelling, punchyounation and grammar checkers!

While working on POD's tonight  :)  and was reminded of this thread when the following opened...
  (You need to Login or Register   (You need to Login or Register
Hope the "this La-Z-Boy kitchen" helps remove any foul taste left by earlier posts.

Ahhhhhhh :exclamation... love that Lz-Z-boy kitchen shot. What a nice photo to sit here and view as I sip my morning coffee.  Yes, I'd like to be there :) Thanks for sharing that db.

Well heck.

After seeing this photo (the aforementioned La-Z-Boy shot) I will find it difficult to accomplish ANYTHING at work today.

Wish that were me. Right now.

Sigh.

As to the charred birch tree shot, don't kid yourselves. That wasn't a paddler/camper. That was a partier. Kegger anyone?

-- kypaddler

kypaddler wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2009 at 1:32pm:

As to the charred birch tree shot, don't kid yourselves. That wasn't a paddler/camper. That was a partier. Kegger anyone? -- kypaddler

You might be on too something ;)
When I used to trip with 3 other guys who NEVER met a campfire they didn't want too get DRUNK around, I would retire early because I was the "cat" herder and often woke up to find the fire pit full of items they thought would burn :-?  A few times it contained items of clothing they had hung on dead branches and ended up throwing in the fire :(
One trip to Maine one of the guys burned up his ONLY pair of long pants.
He was a rotund fellow, and only one of us wore the same size pant as he. Sooo, he had too wear the guy's DIRTY pants for a week. It was late September, cold and rainy, with a frost every night, not good laundry weather.
 Not a big thing, EXCEPT the guy had had some Lower Intestinal problems from eating Freeze dried food that was past its expiration date :'(
 WE called that trip the CRAPPY PANTS trip and I can guarantee the wearer of those pants NEVER came on a trip again without at least 2 pair of pants ;D

Crappy pants? Fair enough in my book! Makes me...don't want to revist that.

Tim

kypaddler wrote on Sep 16^th, 2009 at 2:43am:

Back to db's original post ... which I found a timely topic. Just returned from 8 days in Quetico. We stayed in the interior as long as we could, then did a marathon paddle on next-to-last day to get to campsite near border for early morning departure. Pulled up to familiar island not long before dusk and found the comfortable old firepit (the high, three-sided kind perfect for cooking) had been destroyed by previous campers and reassembled into three creations -- a monstrous fire ring, full of partially burned green logs; a jumble of rocks, stuffed with partially burned green sticks; and a pile of "extra" rocks -- all erected right in the middle of the campsite. . And three, we spent part of our night burning previously charred logs, not to mention the sock and other garbage strewn all over. So, db, I hope this practice -- of eschewing the leave-no-trace philosophy in favor of one that encourages tearing down and remaking established campsites to fit your needs -- is not a trend. (And my point is NOT directed at previous posters who described tearing down, cleaning out and rebuilding, or those who deconstruct in order to "tame down" the bonfire-enabling monstrosities. More power and gratitude to them, I say.) -- kypaddler

Kypaddler: I hope you don't mind if I use part of a previous post to continue :question :)... I was wondering if the campsite near the border was in Q?, and did the camp condition reflect a "kegger"party took place? (as in sock and garbage thrown about). My take on this subject as I've re read it a couple of times, seems to be that something in Q is causing the grand ol'  monumental traditional fire pits to be reduced to rubble? or at least scaled down to something lesser.  From the posts I read, my thoughts is either the Canadian portage crews are rebuilding, the public in general are rebuilding, a camp or organization is rebuilding,or everybody in general that don't like fire places are doing their thing as they may. Overall, my take is that most of the Q campsites are a complete mess resulting from the obvious misuse by keggers......I mean, paddle campers would not be the cause ;)

As one that no longer paddles Q, I am sorry to hear of the decline. My father and I made many Q trips long ago and it was good. Sorry to hear the keggers are reforming a beautiful garden :(

Riversend wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2009 at 1:31am:

As one that no longer paddles Q, I am sorry to hear of the decline. My father and I made many Q trips long ago and it was good. Sorry to hear the keggers are reforming a beautiful garden :(

Can we get some perspective in isle 5 please?  Perspective in isle 5.   :P

Riversend and Phantom Jug,

Yes, please allow me to clarify and add perspective, because my previous post was intended to be fairly limited in nature and not a general proclamation about either people or the park.

First, about the campsite. Yes, it was in Quetico, near the border. I wouldn't say "trashed" in the sense that it was, well, "trashed." A bit of garbage, some charred logs (not like that birch tree photo P. shared) and a destroyed fire pit. Partiers? Well, seemed more like a large group that seemed a bit lax in cleaning up after themselves and that had different ideas about what to do with fire, a decision I was lamenting. Of course, in a place like that, even one piece of garbage seems glaring.

Second, about the firepit. Again, this didn't appear to be the work either of a trail crew or dedicated paddler/paddlers trying to "tame down" a monstrosity. Just a group that decided they wanted an open-faced bonfire they all could gather around rather than something they could cook in. So they created a ring and two separate piles of rocks nearby, one of which they had had a separate fire in. It really was a jumbled mess. My point was that the firepit -- monstrous though it was -- had become part of this particular campsite over the decades, and I hated to see it destroyed.

Third, the "taming down" movement (ha, like how I've assigned this a grandiose term to give it import and energy?). Maybe this distinction exists only in my mind, but I think there's a difference between monstrous fire pits that encourage and allow monstrous fires, and those that contain lots of rocks but really are used for smaller fires. To me, the latter carry with them a sense of history and use: Much food cooked here, many nights spent huddled around as dark fell and storms raged. Add your own stories and move on. Again, I respect those who would prefer out-of-the-way, almost hidden cook spots. To each his own. I was just disappointed when we pulled up at that site. Thus db's post was surprisingly timely.

Now, finally, the park. If there's been a general decline in the cleanliness and attraction of Quetico, I've not seen it. My first trip was in the early '90s; my latest trip in early September. It's still a beautiful place, pristine and mostly untouched by man. Other than a bit of garbage on the aforementioned campsite, and maybe one wrapper on a portage, I didn't see too much sign of disrespect. Others may have had other experiences, I cannot speak to those. But I don't want my post to imply I've seen a widespread problem. I could write an epic about this latest trip alone -- the three evenings in a row we paddled out at dusk and gently fished as dusk fell, the loons called and the lake calmed down to a sheet of glass; the turtles, otters, eagles and ground squirrels; the smallmouth and walleye meals; the blueberries and odd-shaped fungi; the pictographs and challenging waves that made me just thrilled to be a man with a deftly shaped piece of wood in my hand ... and on and on.

Sometimes man can be an intrusion in a place like this -- I don't want to start pontificating here, but let's me mindful of that. So people are more intrusive than others. So let's insist, always, on respect and reverence. And if indeed some people are seeing a decline, the important thing is that it's not too late to reverse it.

thanks for reading, and the opportunity to clarify.

-- kypaddler

Good thoughts, kypaddler. Thanks for sharing them.

Tim

kypaddler: thank you, i tend to be a little goofy in my posts sometimes ;D  Personaly I've enjoyed reading everybodys posts and enjoy every bodies perspectives witch ever way the go. When I camp I do it my way, and could (or is it couldn't ... :question) care less what anbody else does or doesn't do, as long as they follow the rules issued on the Forest Service BW permit when in the U.S. and likewise follow the Q rules when in   Ontarios' Proviential Park . Thinking about the differences between the 2, I've decided I may return to Q in the future, so I can enjoy the freedom to pick an undeveloped campsite of my own choice , where there is no established fire rings or flowering tp gardens. I enjoy pitching my tent or tarp upon an undesturbed carpet of moss or pine needles and cooking freezdried over a peak 1 stove or searing a venison loin over an open fire, depending what paticular mood strikes me 8-)   well: gotta go.......just got back home from a quick overnighter in the BW and decided to pick up a few supplies and head back out for a little longer jaunt :).. ain't life grand ;D [smiley=thumbup.gif]  

Indeed, life is grand.

Tim

"just got back home from a quick overnighter in the BW and decided to pick up a few supplies and head back out for a little longer jaunt"

Oh my, don't rub it in like that. For me to hit the north woods requires about a 960-mile drive.

-- kypaddler

Just for the sake of argument discussion:
  (You need to Login or Register to me. It's not my sort of fire but it seems to work better than I'd have imagined even in the best of conditions.

I wouldn't mess with this one too much beyond a stone or two placed inside for a pot or the grate. The way I look at it, I'd rather remove/move two rocks than two charred logs and I have become a big fan of charcoal over ash (hold the foil) the last few years.

I'm getting this?

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Apache/2.0.58 (Unix) Server at i.pbase.com Port 80

I have been reading all the ( as db puts it discussion) and just keeping my mouth shut.  Well I may be guilty of some of what many of you see as sins. I generally don't build a fire to keep warm or to set by and watch although they do look pretty especially in the pictures.
If I am cold I may pick up some 3 to 4 footers on my way to camp and burn them into in the middle then through them in to finish burning.  If it gets late I have thrown water on them and leave half burned logs by the fire pit for the next person who is cold and I appreciate it if others leave me the same.

I do some times cook on the fire and for that I like small pieces usually less than ¾ inch diameter. I use a lot of camp trash (pine  cones and small sticks) for cooking.  I cook on fire not coals. My fire grate will not straddle most Quetico fire pits so I move some rocks around.

The third and most frequent fire I build is to chase the skeeters out of camp.  For this I like half rotten birch.  If you look under low hanging trees around camp you will find where some one has found half burned birch in the fire pit and carried it away and hid it so no one will burn it.  I drag a few pieces of this back and get it burning and it will smolder for several hours.

Sense this thread carries a hint of the, “what others do that I do not like” character I will add my gripes also.  There isn't a stick left in camp to prop up the side of the tarp or reach that rope that you almost got over that limb and back to the ground. I like a 3-4 inch diameter  6 ft long pole when I go to the john.  Just put one end on a log or rock and you got a one cheek seat. When I first started going to Quetico there were poles standing on end leaning against a tree some where around camp. Today the uneducated burn all the one cheek seats.  They probably cut them up and cook over them. Oh now I feel better

So if you don't like the wood I leave behind just move it out of your way and enjoy your self.

Db
I get the same message as solotripper.
Magicpaddler

wrote on Oct 10^th, 2009 at 2:27am:

I get the same message as solotripper.

The example fire I pointed to earlier can be found   (You need to Login or Register if my link doesn't work for everyone.

MP, I'll leave a tarp pole for you. Always leaning up somewhere nearby so it doesn't rot on the ground. They may be a bit thin for your other use though. I've often thought of carving on the side "for tarp, not fire". But who am I to say, it was free to me.

I'll have to pay close attention next time a grab a 6' / 3-4" pole in the future. Thanks for the warning.  8-)

db, Your second link came thru.
I agree, nice fire, mine look like that when I'm done grilling  and need/want some heat/smoke combo for warmth or bug control.

I gotta agree with the last part of MP's post... what fool would burn a perfectly good tarp pole? er cheek seat.