Now that my wife and I are expecting our first child, I may have to put our annual 7-10 day trip on hold for several years, or at least significatly modify it.  I'm thinking that the 3-4 range might be good for an introductory, short range trip with more base camping than we typically do, and gently raising the bar every year.  What's your take?

Until the little one can sit in a canoe, I'm thinking we'll have to make vacation more of a cabin trip.

I started taking my twin boys on drive in cabin based fishing trips in Canada when they were 2 years old. I did this every year until recently. They are now 23 and fishing fanatics. At about age 15 we took them on a one week canoe-camping-fishing trip. They were not too fond of the work involved, setting up camp, paddling everywhere, limited range restricting fishing opportunities. They have been with me on 3 recent Quetico trips. They still enjoy the fishing aspect the most, but now handle the canoe-camping much better than as teen agers.

I think if I would have started taking them canoe trips from about age 5 or so, gradually increasing their exposure as you suggest, I suspect they would now enjoy the canoe-camping aspect more than the do.

same answer as "how old is too old"

 I'm thinking the kid(s) will adjust faster than you and your wife will too a different approach to tripping ;)
 After all, native people all over the world travel and live off the land with their young children.
 I think the proper age is when YOU can deal with what it takes for a safe and fun trip. Kids just want to have fun, they don't care where their having it ;D
 Starting off them off young, making short trips before YOUR patience wears out or their bored will pay dividends down the road.
 My married friends who started their kids off as babies/toddlers on family car camping/backpacking trips, have kids who now take their kids as soon as possible.
 The ones I know who waited until their kids were 'older" found that they had developed other interests, like video games and other couch potato pursuits. They made such a fuss, it wasn't worth the hassle dragging them along  :(

My wife's rule was that we had to wait until the girls could squat in the woods on their own.  We were not going to haul diapers in/out.  They were 5 and 6 their first trip.  We planned a route to base camp and made the decision when they said they were done portaging that was the lake we would camp on.  They made it 3 portages in 90+ degree weather.  We base camped for 3 days and came out.  We had 1 storm and weather over 90 degrees every day.  They still loved it and last summer was their 5th year in a row.  They are determined to beat my current run of about 30 years in a row and counting.

I've started my 3 kids in Quetico when they were 11, and we did not do trivial routes.  Looking back it could have been younger & they would have been fine -- but it would have involved more work for me.  

I think that's what it comes down to -- for me it wasn't a guys fishing trip anymore - I fished, but the focus changed & you spend a lot of time helping your kids.  That said, the first trip with a kid was my best trip ever & I would not do it any other way!

So what's that mean for you?  Whatever age you decide is 'old enough' start with a trip that's not too aggressive & be very flexible!

-Tom

Thanks for all of the replies.  Our goal is to introduce and educate our child about the outdoors, specifically so they won't become the couch potato, video game obsessed ones we see so often.  Hopefully by somewhat controlled introduction and ramp up, we can instill a lifetime benevolence of the outdoors.

I started taking my kids when they were 9.  I agree with MK, the younger they are the more work it is for you.  More portaging, more fising fishing problems, more cooking, etc.  It is a different trip than what you are probably used to.  But it is all worth it, I figure when I am old and grey, he is going to have to pick up the slack for me.  My oldest is now 16 and he can hold his own and carry "big" packs or the canoe.  The next couple trips I plan on getting him more involved in navigating, camp and fishing spots location, camp setup, etc.  

Not surprising how so many outdoorsmen and women know instinctively the ideas that Richard Louv posits in "Last Child in the Woods."

Want healthier, balanced, confident and engaged kids? Let them roam outdoors.

The way we feel in my extended family, every kid should know how to paddle a canoe, shoot a gun, use and sharpen a knife, field-dress an animal, build a fire and pitch a tent. That doesn't mean they have to adopt these as hobbies, but they should know how.

Having said that, I haven't had the courage to take my kids to Quetico yet, primarily because the guys in the group I go with aren't into the family thing.

At some point, I'll have to break off ....

-- kypaddler

kypaddler wrote on Dec 5^th, 2009 at 5:10pm:

The way we feel in my extended family, every kid should know how to paddle a canoe, shoot a gun, use and sharpen a knife, field-dress an animal, build a fire and pitch a tent. -- kypaddler

I like that.

I like the guy trip thing. My boys are men now, and quite a bit stronger the me, so our recent trips have been kind of a guy thing and family thing at the same time. I did a trip with just my wife this summer but haven't had the courage to do one with the wife AND the sons. I'll just say that I don't think it would be a "bonding" experience.

Hello.

A couple that often joins us in our Quetico trips brought their daughter for a 4 day base camp at 4 months of age. It was a pretty easy time. For paddling, the father had his daughter in a basket by his feet. If she began to cry or became irritated, he would take a break and console the child for a bit. A few times this meant passing the baby up to the mother for feeding while he continued paddling by himself. Last year we took a 1 yr. old into Rawn for a 5 day base camp. Those that wanted day trips could go on to Buckingham or into Bisk, Beg, etc. It worked for those in the party that had kids and wanted to base camp and those that wanted to see more country and fish. If everybody is willing to compromise a littel, a solution for everybody, including the ankle biters can be achieved.

Park

The longer you weight it may be to late.  All 3 of my kids started when they were babies.  Now my oldest is 5 and has done 9 trips, my second is 4 and has done 8 trips and my youngest is 1 and has done 2 trips.  Its not if the kid can handle it, its if the parents can.

Thanks Canoearoo and Park1.  As my trips are usually 9 nights or more, with very little base camping, I definitely understand it will be a significant departure from my norm.  However, the opportunity to help a child experience these natural wonders just seems like the best job in the world.

I'm definitely not brave enough to take infants to the Quetico.

But when my son was 4-5 weeks old, my brother in law called all distraught. He was in the woods during bow season and had made a bad shot on a  deer (pulled his face away during the follow-thru) and couldn't find the deer. He was calling just to pass the time, give the deer a chance to die before he tracked further (not wanting to jump it and push it on to another farm).

But I said "hold on, I'll be right there." So I put the little man in one of those papoose carriers on my chest, tossed some diapers and formula in a camo hunting pack I used as a diaper bag and drove 40 miles to help track this deer for five hours. At times I was literally crawling on the ground looking for blood splatters, my face about 6 inches from my son's staring eyes.

You haven't lived as a father until you've fed a kid a bottle in the autumn woods.

"Breathe in this air, boy," my brother in law kept telling him.

When my then-wife got home that night with our daughter, she wanted to know how the "stick-tights" had gotten on his waffle weave sleeper.

This story has nothing to do with canoeing, but sheesh -- get outdoors with your children/grandchildren/nieces and nephews. My son doesn't consciously remember that day, but down deep I know his soul does.

-- kypaddler

wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 2:57am:

The longer you weight [sic] it may be to late.

Thats BS.

wally wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2009 at 5:18pm:

same answer as "how old is too old"

::)
Bravery is an interesting concept. I'd have gone with something else as I've always simply drawn the line at the ability to swim - age notwithstanding. They don't necessarily have to swim well, it's just one less thing that could cause panic at the worst possible time. Panic will always make matters worse.

I've toyed with the idea of taking my dad on and off but the man never did learn to swim. As his boats got smaller and smaller toward my target size, it was no surprise to me that his PFDs kept getting bigger and bigger. I've spent enough time in various boats with him to know he'd be a gunnel grabber and therefore I herby publicly declare him to be TOO OLD. Besides, he is really old and wouldn't remember it very long anyway.

Woulda coulda didn't - no regrets. (Yeah, like someone would have volunteered to look after mom for a week while we were out indulging ourselves.)

have been going for 25 years and we always made it a right of passage... at age 9 for all the boys in the family. they can't paddle worth a crap but they are fun... and no body is more excited on the 9th b'day!!!

Funny story... one time we were paddling in from a late night walleye fishing run ... Sag had flattened out and everythign was real calm and quiet. 3 canoes cutting water and paddling silently... when all of a sudden the 9 year old starts playing his harmonica in the middle of Sag... I nearly wet my pants laughing.

db wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2009 at 6:43am:

I've spent enough time in various boats with him to know he'd be a gunnel grabber and therefore I herby publicly declare him to be TOO OLD. Besides, he is really old and wouldn't remember it very long anyway.

Hehe...oh that's funny. You can always show him pics after the trip.  :)

Mick started at two, first overnight on Beth, man that was a huge boar! Car camping before that. Break them in young, mindfully.

I brought my daughter in for the first time when she was four. She had a great time and she was just old enough that it wasn't too hard on us either. I totally agree with however it was that suggested waiting until they are out of diapers. We brought her on a four day Snowbank to Lake One trip via Alice.

This is my first post, though I have been reading QJ for about ten years.

My wife and I took our son on an 8 day trip to La Verendrye in Quebec in August, 2006.  He had just turned three in June, 2006.

Over the course of the 8 days, we had literally no contact with any other people, even on portages, and saw only a couple of canoes.  We had weather, heard wolves, got leeches (!) and had a GREAT time.  Our son was actively involved in everything we did and has so many wonderful memories of the trip.  Yes, there were certain sacrifices that my wife and I made in terms of our putting our personal interests aside etc.  I feel that is the beauty of doing anything as a family.

For one thing, we moved less than usual.  Still, we did move camp every other day (as opposed to every day as we usually like).  We even portaged our son in the canoe!  The prince had fallen asleep and it was the best, and funniest, option.  He remained asleep the whole time.

Now, he is six (and turning seven), and we have an additional member of our family who will be two in September, 2010.  Tomorrow, we are hopefully acquiring a Quetico permit for this coming August.  It will be our first trip to the BWCA/Quetico since 2002.

We have mixed feelings and some concerns about taking our youngest who wont be two, yet.  Any helpful replies are appreciated.  Otherwise, I'll let everyone know how it goes!

Thanks for reading,
Adam

My wife and I started with a 2 week honeymoon and then 6 - 2 week trips together before the kids came along. We said "why leave them home?"
So for the next 10 years we had 5 kids and never left one of them home.
The youngest we took was 4 months old. It was a blast teaching them about the woods and fishing and the outdoors. We did all of our trips as 2 weeks to the Q except one 2 weeker to Woodland C when our youngest was 4 years old. Kids are amazingly adaptive and if thought is put into caring for their needs first, you can still travel some, ( although less than before ), but keep it simple stupid really works with kids. Don't try to do too much, or go too far, or set too high a travel bar, and things will be fine.
Funny stuff... 2 kids in diapers, 2 weeks + 80 to 90 degree days = 70 lb smelly diaper pack that no one wanted to carry. ( It was triple bagged so it really didn't smell except when you had to open it up to make a deposit )
Good stuff... my girls and boys have all caught fish over 10 lbs and love fishing. My youngest was 10 when he caught a 10 lb W a 12 lb N and a 4 lb B and a 10 lb LT all on the same trip.  Put all of us to shame.

When my kids each have turned 21 we figured out that they have spent a total of 1 year of their life in the Q.

The moral of the story, start them young and help them to have a good time and it will be a life long love affair with the wilderness.

Gene M

I agree. My nine year old is a well season paddling now; he was officially started at just shy of 3 in the BW. Car camping B4. LOve paddling with him, many many fond memories! So what are the concerns?

I took my kids as soon as I could... but two were already in their teens (hey!  I was in the Navy, and we didn't live anywhere near Lake Country).  But now I'm a new grandfather, and would like to take the wee one (and her mother would love to go as well!).

Practical question:  How does one ensure the safety of a toddler that doesn't swim yet?  Are there such things as pfd's for such small critters?

There are PFD's that are toddler-size and they should wear them whenever they are near the water, as well as when they are in the canoe.  They get used to them quickly.  We never took our children to the canoe country when they were small, but we have a lake cottage, so we have had PFD's for the grandchildren since toddler age.

I think it is also a good idea to begin young to take a child into the water, just for the sake of comfort, so that they aren't terrified if they should fall in.  Floating around in the PFD is fun, and good practice just in case they should ever end up in the water by accident.

I too brought a couple of my kids in at three years old. And now the PFD's are so much better. My oldest is now 27 and at three I got a picture of him with Dorothy up there on Knife Lake... That's twenty five years ago. Then a few years later I brought my young family up when my one daughter was three and my other daughter was two months away from being born. My kids still have memories of that trip over twenty years later... especially my second son who caught a five pound northern on his brothers mickey mouse fishing pole... He's quite the fisherman today. I just wonder if two months befor you were born is too young.  :P

Well. . .she probably doesn't remember much.   ::)

Woodstripper, they make good PFD's for kids and/or you can modify them as well.  My wife and I did some of each.

Things to look for -
1 Make sure that they have a head flap or pad that helps keep their head out of the water ( this is mostly for infants ).      
2 Make sure that they will turn the kids face up if they go in the water.    3 Make sure that there is a grab strap near the head so that you can pluck them out of the water if needed.  
4 Make sure that there is a strap between the legs so that the PFD doesn't slip up over their head.
Some of our kids PFD's we added these things, some of them we got most of what we wanted right out of the box.

One of our rules for our kids until they were about 7 or 8, and could swim well on their own, was that when they were out of the tent they had their PFD on PERIOD. Then it is a lot less hassle trying to keep track of them and worrying if they are near the water or not. If you heard a splash, they were too close, but they learn fast that way. Wearing their PFD's full time also acted like body armour for the inevitable falls they took. We also allowed each of our kids to "fall out" of the canoe before they were 2 years old. You can only tell them so many times to quit leaning over the side so far. None of my kids fell out more than once.  

My wife was pregnant to some degree on a lot of our trips in those early years. 7 months was the farthest along she ever was. That was a 16 day trip with 20+ portages including the 950m out of Brent and the 1000m into Pond. We also swam the Brewer Rapids that year for fun.
I know - we are crazy - but man do we have so many great family memories from the Q, and all of our kids have turned out so far...no damage other than a craving for the wilderness each summer.
Gene M

PFD's are widely available. We also have the same rule, and Dad has to follow it too. Shoes always on too. We also run bug shirts so DEET is not necessary; not good for the we ones U know. Ah, the mickey pole! [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Outstanding info all!  Thank you for the pointers.

I'm a transplant from So. California where I grew up (I left as soon as I could... can't stand the crowding, pollution, and politics!).  What surprised me is how few people in the midwest can swim well.  Out there, learning to swim before reaching kindergarden age seemed to be the norm.  While it was a desert with no good lakes to speak of, there was the beach.  I was body surfing and bobbing in waves as young as I can remember.  In grade school I was on swim teams.  Yet here in the midwest, it seems few youngsters learn to swim beyond a feeble head-up dog paddle.

Everyone on my trips wears a pfd whenever they are on the water.  I've had a canoe "turn turtle" a couple of times (overloaded and unstable, or hitting a submerged rock in wind/waves).  Even though I'm a strong swimmer, that's been enough to make a believer out of me.  Doubly so for any youth or kids in the group.

Other good uses for pfds:  pillows, seat cushions on hard rocks / logs, wind shells on cool days.  They are actually quite useful in the BW/Q beyond just keeping you upright in the water!

ws

Yep- I have also used them to carry injured folks across portages-think bucket seat....multiple uses.  :)

I guess there is no such thing as too young for the child, however some parents may be too young for the task  ::)   several years ago while ice fishing, I was aproached by a couple ski-ing and pulling sleds with gear. they were out for an overnighter. While we were chatting about conditions and such, I noticed an infant was tucked in blankets in one of the sleds, I also noticed everyone including the infant seemed very relaxed and happy  :)...so guess it depends on what your conditioned to  8-)

;) [smiley=thumbup.gif]