I seem to remember something about a plan to build a road to Batch, thus bypassing Nym. Any one know anything about that? Thanks!

Old Salt wrote on Jan 14^th, 2010 at 4:55am:

I seem to remember something about a plan to build a road to Batch, thus bypassing Nym. Any one know anything about that? Thanks!

I haven't heard anything and it sounded kind of expensive to me for what it was worth. That was back when countries had money but would be a good question for Copia though.

I hate to report that not only is a road being considered but there is a possibility of a large French Lake type drive-up campground to be built at Batchewaung Bay.  The town of Atikokan gets very little business from the present campground at French Lake and the local businesses want a campground located close to Atikokan.  This possibility was being included in the long-range planning that was conducted.  I wrote a letter opposing the road and campground and asked that it be included in the planning.  Don't know is the long range plan has been completed.  A road and campground would seriously harm the wilderness.  Hopefully this will not happen.  

We all need to support Atikokan's economy as much as possible when we enter Quetico from the North.  Quetico is a Provinical park that is used primarily by US citizens.  If my home state of GA had a large state park used primarily by Canadians, we would want the local economy to receive economic benefits to allow us to support the park.  I also encourage everyone to join the Friends of Quetico.  They provide much support for the park but are not able to become involved in politics relating to the park.  

Atwater wrote on Jan 17^th, 2010 at 3:34pm:

I hate to report that not only is a road being considered but there is a possibility of a large French Lake type drive-up campground to be built at Batchewaung Bay.  . . . . .   I also encourage everyone to join the Friends of Quetico.

And I would encourage people to find out exactly what "Friends" of Quetico actually endorse and are trying to accomplish before sending them any money.  Objective Number 1 is to limit park access.  The money you send just might be the money that builds the gate keeping you out.

As a long time member of Friends of Quetico, I have not noticed a problem with an effort to reduce entry into Quetico. Google the Friends of Quetico to check them out. I know that they have very limited funds.  Personally,  I would not want to increase the number of permits to enter Quetico.  Compare the Quetico to Algonquin and determine  yourself if you would want to increase the number of permits.  

I understand Atwater but here is where we part company.


Quote:

A road and campground would seriously harm the wilderness.

I know QJ is involved with FoQ to some capicity and I too have donated in the past.  Is FoQ against this potential plan?  I don't know so I'm asking.  If they are; Why?  If their mission is not to limit park use, why would they be against this measure?

IMO Atikokan and the surrounding area are reaping what they have sown...

wally wrote on Jan 18^th, 2010 at 2:04am:

IMO Atikokan and the surrounding area are reaping what they have sown...

+1

PhantomJug wrote on Jan 18^th, 2010 at 1:53am:

I understand Atwater but here is where we part company. Quote: A road and campground would seriously harm the wilderness. I know QJ is involved ...

There's absolutely no affiliation between QJ and either the (of the) Friends or the Q Foundation beyond an obvious interest in a certain place on the globe and how it's used yet our paths do of course cross from time to time.

  (You need to Login or Register
"Friends of Quetico Park work toward the enhancement of the interpretive, educational, and recreational objectives of Quetico Provincial Park. Summer staff members work with park employees in the Natural Heritage Education Programme and library."

There's also the   (You need to Login or Register
"is involved in activities which will, through a wise and informed public and private sector, conserve wilderness areas in their natural state for future generations.
...
Our objective has been to act as a catalyst for initiatives that will, both in the long term and the short term further our mission. Hence, we have made an on-going commitment to working with government officials, park managers, forestry and mining industry officials, local citizens' groups and the Lac La Croix First Nation, to ensure the sustainability of the forests and the integrity of the wilderness."

For the 3,000th time folks, QJ is simply here to facilitate honest discussion about the pros and cons of   (You need to Login or Register BW/Q ideas. Whatever fits your point of skew or floats your boat or cooks your 'sausage' is entirely up to you.


wally wrote on Jan 18^th, 2010 at 2:04am:

IMO Atikokan and the surrounding area are reaping what they have sown...

OK, I don't get what you guys are referring to. Enlighten me please?

3,000 indeed :-* I just want to know stuff that may be useful to me or my kid's kid's kid's kids... someday. What you do is entirely up to you.

Just received an email from Quetico Park Superintenden Robin Reilly.  There has never been a consideraton of a campground and the road is not being considered at this time.  

Atwater wrote on Jan 17^th, 2010 at 3:34pm:

I hate to report that not only is a road being considered but there is a possibility of a large French Lake type drive-up campground to be built at Batchewaung Bay.

Atwater wrote on Jan 18^th, 2010 at 2:20pm:

There has never been a consideraton of a campground and the road is not being considered at this time.

[smiley=thumbup.gif]  Nice one.  Now go dig that cat-hole somewhere else.

db wrote on Jan 18^th, 2010 at 8:22am:

OK, I don't get what you guys are referring to. Enlighten me please?

Speaking for myself, I don't like that they want to dictate what sorts of services you have to use to qualify to use Stanton Bay.  I make it a point to always spend some coin locally when I make a canoe trip.  I eat at least one meal pre and post-trip.  I buy souvenirs for my kids.  I usually give into the temptation for a last-minute lure or two.  I used to buy leeches.  Usually in Atikokan I buy lodging.  I fill up the car.

Yet somehow, this just isn't enough.  I need to buy an outfitters services to use a road that I used to be able to freely use.

I make fewer trips out of the northern side of the park than I used to.  I used to go almost exclusively thru Pickerel (Stanton) and Beaverhouse.  Since they made it clear that I'm not really all that welcome to come up that way (unless I do things the way THEY want me to do them), I rarely ever enter the park that way.  Instead, I buy tows across La Croix or up the Moose Chain or go in thru Sag.

The downside for them is that as a park veteran who influences many trips through what I write here and through people I interact with, they have lost my endorsement and thus some business (most likely).  They want to shun me because I don't meet their definition if the ideal tourist yet they fail to account for the fact that I can and do influence people who ARE their ideal tourists, plus they lose all the dollars I would have spent had I gone there.

When people walk into my restaurant I don't demand that they order the most expensive thing on the menu, or demand that they spend XXX dollars or I won't let them in the door (or make them sit at rickety tables if they insist on coming in anyway).  I welcome them in, make sure I give them the best service I can, and thank them for coming when they leave whether they just got a coffee and a cup of soup or they just sprung for the bill for a party of 25 people who were eating and drinking like there's no tomorrow.  They might only spend $4 with me today, but if they like my restuarant they will be back and they will tell other people.  And in the meantime, I'm $4 ahead of where I would have been than if I'd told them to get lost.

Just sayin'!  

Sorry db, you stuck the quarter in me, so there you go.

Snow_Dog wrote on Jan 19^th, 2010 at 2:09am:

db wrote on Jan 18th, 2010 at 8:22am: OK, I don't get what you guys are referring to. Enlighten me please? Speaking for myself, I don't like that they want to dictate what sorts of services you have to use to qualify to use Stanton Bay.  I make it a point to always spend some coin locally when I make a canoe trip.  I eat at least one meal pre and post-trip.  I buy souvenirs for my kids.  I usually give into the temptation for a last-minute lure or two.  I used to buy leeches.  Usually in Atikokan I buy lodging.  I fill up the car. Yet somehow, this just isn't enough.  I need to buy an outfitters services to use a road that I used to be able to freely use. I make fewer trips out of the northern side of the park than I used to.  I used to go almost exclusively thru Pickerel (Stanton) and Beaverhouse.  Since they made it clear that I'm not really all that welcome to come up that way (unless I do things the way THEY want me to do them), I rarely ever enter the park that way.  Instead, I buy tows across La Croix or up the Moose Chain or go in thru Sag. The downside for them is that as a park veteran who influences many trips through what I write here and through people I interact with, they have lost my endorsement and thus some business (most likely).  They want to shun me because I don't meet their definition if the ideal tourist yet they fail to account for the fact that I can and do influence people who ARE their ideal tourists, plus they lose all the dollars I would have spent had I gone there. When people walk into my restaurant I don't demand that they order the most expensive thing on the menu, or demand that they spend XXX dollars or I won't let them in the door (or make them sit at rickety tables if they insist on coming in anyway).  I welcome them in, make sure I give them the best service I can, and thank them for coming when they leave whether they just got a coffee and a cup of soup or they just sprung for the bill for a party of 25 people who were eating and drinking like there's no tomorrow.  They might only spend $4 with me today, but if they like my restuarant they will be back and they will tell other people.  And in the meantime, I'm $4 ahead of where I would have been than if I'd told them to get lost. Just sayin'!   Sorry db, you stuck the quarter in me, so there you go.

Well said!

I also used to go up through the northern entries every year. I liked it because there were fewer people, no competion at entry points or portages, or for campsites, or for lunker fish... My spending habits are similar to SD's. I also influence (or delude myself into thinking I do) lots of people by my comments here and elsewhere.

The policy makers in Canuckville don't seem to factor in the effects of goodwill or badwill. The only see $$$. We don't come so you can make the sale, we come for the experience. When we have good experiences, the sales will follow... :P When you anger us, you lose us... :P

I know some will disagree, but IMO it is outrageous to turn a logging road in the middle of nowhere (on which the profits have already been made) into a toll road.

Well said OS and SD...my feelings are similar....
but in a shorter sense....I don't think they want me to come there and spend my dough.  I get a definate feeling of dislike when I go there...(yes, I'm being somewhat facecious).

For me, I'd go along way to treat my guests and customers better...especially if I had a local economy like Atikokan's.  But heck....I can't whine....They got nothing on the local CrownLands.  Their rules, their lot, and they can play by themselves just fine.

My $$, my vacation, and I can spend it elsewhere just fine too.


Just got back from a trip to the Angle this last week and the anti-Canadian (and anti-US) resentment was overwhelming...resentment towards more rules and bueracracy that do little for security and continue to stiffle buisness and a way of life.

Wally,

I think you're right, they don't care. But, if they want our business, they should at least pretend to care. Since they don't care, they will not grow their economy, & everyone suffers...

Oh, OK ya I get it. Like the Stanton thread, same experience different take.

I have never associated Atikokan with a canoe trip any more than I would Eau Claire, Duluth, International Falls, Thunder BAy... and some McDonald's on either side of Madison always seems to make my tummy growl. They are just fortuitous places to stop on a means to an end. It will never be the Ely or Fish Creek (WI- during tourist season) of the north at a dozen or so entries per day max capacity. Timber mining....

FWIW - The road to Batch idea was floated a while back too:
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I've not heard much lately but like the restaurant analogy - if it's not too crowded - but that's just me.

db.....why there's a giant sign out on the hiway...."Welcome to the canoe capitol of Canada"!

Just got back from a trip to the Angle this last week and the anti-Canadian (and anti-US) resentment was overwhelming...resentment towards more rules and bueracracy that do little for security and continue to stiffle buisness and a way of life.

 Never underestimate the Ugly American factor while in Canada.
I reminds me of what you see/hear on the nightly news. Foreigners as a whole love American music/clothes/pop culture, but HATE are foreign policy and the power we still yield as the lone super power, at least for now.
 I've sat in silence in restaurants and listened too Canadians rip our country and it's policy and leaders, yet I've NEVER had any remarks directed at me personally.

I don't like what they say, but I bite my tongue, remind myself that I'm in  another country and THEY have the right to speak their mind as we do here.

Living close to Detroit, I know that millions of dollars in commerce flows across the Ambassador Bridge both ways everyday. The Canadians are not too happy with our ever changing security rules. I think many here would agree that coming or going across the border, the AMERICAN customs are the one's who give you the most problems on average. Anyone who travels knows that they screen little old people with artificial hips/joints with the same vigor they screen young males/females of countries that have a track record in terrorism. The latest Nigerian bomber is a perfect example of PC and incompetence going hand in hand.

I understand how people feel when they're made too feel unwanted, especially when your spending your hard earned money. I also know that there probably getting some of the resentment some of our trade policies generate, warranted or not.

Try as we might, I don't believe your ever going to have policies that both bordering countries and trade partners will agree are balanced evenly.

When we had the Mad Cow scare awhile back, we banned imported beef, which western Canada is a major supplier of to the US. Even though the Canadians have a very rigid inspection program and went above and beyond to make sure their beef was safe.

They thought we over-reacted and the decision was driven by the American beef industry lobbyist's who saw a chance to eliminate the competition for awhile.

The Canadians are not to happy with our Lumber trade policy's either.
Not taking sides, but many Americans assume that the Canadians are good with whatever WE decide is fair?

The post about the guy who had to be told he was in CANADA not the US illustrates my point.  Rational or not, many Canadians think/see the US treating them as sort of a American protectorate like Puerto Rico, not the sovereign nation they are.

I don't blame anyone for feeling the way they do, IF they receive poor treatment or service. SD is right, you should treat the big spenders the same as the small ones. I just hope people would remember that you are going to a foreign country, and that you should judge on a individual basis. Give them a chance to do the right thing, if they don't, then it's THEIR loss and the American outfitters gain.

I get all that, ST, and agree with what you are saying regarding the anti-American backlash.  When I'm in Canada I treat the experience the same as I would being a guest in someone else's home.  If I want to get invited back, I better be polite and on good behavior.

What bugs me is how the park and the outfitters decided that certain sorts of customers would be penalized for being too self-sufficient.  It's bad business all the way around and everyone loses.  

The outfitters lose business to Ely, Crane Lake, and Grand Marais outfitters and the Park loses some business to the BWCA and loses more business anytime the southern entry quotas are filled and the northern entry quotas are not.

But hey, if they can afford to alienate customers and still manage to stay afloat, that's their call.  Canada is a free country, too.

wally wrote on Jan 19^th, 2010 at 3:48am:

For me, I'd go along way to treat my guests and customers better...especially if I had a local economy like Atikokan's.  But heck....I can't whine....They got nothing on the local CrownLands.  Their rules, their lot, and they can play by themselves just fine.

db wrote on Jan 19^th, 2010 at 7:37am:

I have never associated Atikokan with a canoe trip any more than I would Eau Claire, Duluth, International Falls, Thunder BAy... They are just fortuitous places to stop on a means to an end. It will never be the Ely or Fish Creek (WI- during tourist season) of the north at a dozen or so entries per day max capacity. Timber mining....

wally wrote on Jan 19^th, 2010 at 12:49pm:

db.....why there's a giant sign out on the hiway...."Welcome to the canoe capitol of Canada"!

I'll tell you, these outfitters are sitting on a gold mine but for the most part they don't seem to have the sense to take advantage of it.  Not only do they "control" some of the easiest-access routes to get deep into Quetico, but they also have the White Otter Wilderness just to the north and plenty of Crown Land possibilities elsewhere.  

The Seine River, for example, has always struck me as a potentially awesome canoe route but if I ever want to plan a trip to canoe it, it will be on me to dig up the information that I need.  If those outfitters wanted to expand their business, they'd be busy digging up all sorts of information on the Seine and the White Otter Wilderness and making it widely available...you know...promoting the possible trips and highlighting the scenery and fishing opportunities.  I'm sure there's some spectacular falls and rapids in the Atikokan area, probably some pictographs, certainly a castle, and who knows what else worth seeing.

Contrast how the typical Ely outfitter goes about attracting business to how the typical Atikokan outfitter behaves:  

The typical Ely outfitter attends a bunch of sport shows all winter long.  They freely talk about possible canoe routes and extoll their virtues.  Their websites are visually attractive and informative.  They welcome any type of business they can get, whether it be merely a tow up the Moose Chain, a bunkhouse the night before, just renting a canoe and nothing else, or whatever.  They market both their own business and the area they serve.  They are constanly working to make the BWCA and Q (to whatever extent they can influence policy there) more attractive to visitors.

The typical Atikokan outfitter attends few if any sports shows.  They are (in my experience) very much more tight-lipped about releasing any information about Quetico until you've put down a deposit and forget even discusssing White Otter.  If they even have a website, it's usually a pretty minimalist affair.  Marketing is a four-letter word to them.  They sit at home and grumble about Americans and their foreign policies and about the dam* Ely outfitters "stealing" their business instead of making an attempt to encourage canoeists to come on around and sample the fabulous resource they are sitting on top of.

Frankly, it's semi-amazing to me that so many more people enter the Q through Prairie Portage than through Nym, Beaverhouse, or Pickerel.  If you want to get deep in the Q with minimal effort, there's no easier way than through the northern entries.  You are 3 portages away from Jean Lake from Beaverhouse.  You are 3 portages away from Russell Lake or anywhere you care to go on Sturgeon Lake from Stanton Bay.  From French Lake you can take a 10-day canoe trip without taking a single portage and still not run out of things to see and do.  You want to go through PP, you are about 7-12 portages from most of the southern fringe of central Q lakes (such as Sarah, Robinson, Tuck, Kashahpiwi).  It's a hard day's travel to get to quality fishing/wilderness in the Q from Ely and it's a piece of cake from Atikokan.

I guess my point is, it's a whole lot easier to sit and whine about being disadvantaged and to petition the government to step in and legislate "fairness" instead of taking on the challenge yourself and reaping the rewards.  No doubt it would be difficult and slow going at first.  You'd need the help of some "early adopters"...people who likely have their own equipment and just need knowledge or maybe a night's lodging.  Initially, it would be a lot of work for very little reward.  Persevere, though, and you could own the biggest slice of a growing pie instead of just trying to keep other outfitters from stealing any tiny bits of a shrinking pie.

I understand there are exceptions to everything I've written here.  I have heard many good things about Canoe Canada.  Quetico Dave is a nice guy who will bend over backwards to please.  But nobody up there is taking full advantage of the gold mine at their front and back doors.

Good thoughts SD.
I have too agree with the comments about the Ely outfitters working hard for your business. I see them listed at more Outdoor Booking Shows than any of the Canadian outfits.

From posts here, I get a sense that most of the US outfitters are willing to work with you, even up to recommending other outfitters that might fit your needs better? It seems from posts that they all know each other and have a degree of co-operation working.

I remember asking Q-Dave, if he knew the guy KF and MP used on their Eastern entry adventure? Dave had advertised that he could get you into the Wawiag River, but had told me that it was above a set of rapids that he didn't think you could run, and that had no portage established? That's when I suggested he talk with KF's guy, as he was looking too establish something in that area. I was surprised that Dave said he didn't know him, but had heard the name? I would think that in a small town like Atikokan that ALL the outfitters would know each other?
Maybe that's not the Canadian way, just seems odd too me?

The typical Ely outfitter attends a bunch of sport shows all winter long.  They freely talk about possible canoe routes and extoll their virtues.  Their websites are visually attractive and informative.  They welcome any type of business they can get, whether it be merely a tow up the Moose Chain, a bunkhouse the night before, just renting a canoe and nothing else, or whatever.  They market both their own business and the area they serve.  They are constanly working to make the BWCA and Q (to whatever extent they can influence policy there) more attractive to visitors.

The typical Atikokan outfitter attends few if any sports shows.  They are (in my experience) very much more tight-lipped about releasing any information about Quetico until you've put down a deposit and forget even discusssing White Otter.  If they even have a website, it's usually a pretty minimalist affair.  Marketing is a four-letter word to them.  They sit at home and grumble about Americans and their foreign policies and about the dam* Ely outfitters "stealing" their business instead of making an attempt to encourage canoeists to come on around and sample the fabulous resource they are sitting on top of.

Amen SD...that near sums up the differing approach to buisness...to me it seems like one side feels more "entitled" and the other sees more of an "oppourtunity".  I notice it every time I cross the border.  Drive for profit and growth are not high on the list up north.  More of a subsistance approach.




Seine river truth...I've found virtually no one to give me info...Crilly outfitters squeaked out a snippet after begging but after that would offer no more and was tight-lipped.  By gosh, I will yet find a way to do the Seine from the dam to I Falls.

wally wrote on Jan 19^th, 2010 at 9:37pm:

By gosh, I will yet find a way to do the Seine from the dam to I Falls.

If you do, I'm in if you need a partner!

Is the "quote" feature disabled or something.  I'm going blind reading this thread.

I'm much farther away (in Ohio), but I don't recall ever seeing anyone from the BWCA side at a sport show here - could be my memory - but none are on the list for this year either.  We get lots of Canadian places -- mostly eastern Ontario, even Quebec -- but we do get Canoe Canada here every other year or so.  During one slow time I picked Jim Clark's brain about Quetico for an hour or so & he was pretty forthcoming about routes, fishing, etc.  Now granted, I'd been a paying customer in the past, so that may have helped.
Just another perspective.
-Tom

PS: one thing mentioned (lamented) was that their canoeing / park business was down, but that their cabin business (mostly north of Atikokan) was way way up -- so some of this may be the business model.  Why not invest more where you're going to make more money?

Tom's right.  The sports shows are paved with Canadian this and fly-in that.  Filling cabins is the name of the game.  

It's hard for us as people "vested" in the back-country, self-reliant camping to be objective about it.  We love Quetico more than Quetico probably loves Quetico.  I've never been treated badly by a Canadian regarding my relationship with canoeing up there but yes, people are tight lipped about certain areas etc...  I'm tight lipped about my favorite spots too but after some work, time and talking to people NOT found in a Google search, my experiences were greatly enhanced.  In fact, 90% of what I know about Quetico, Atikokan, Crown Land was not found among the halls of QJ.

To think that we can change anything up there is a little "elitist" IMO.  I consider myself fortunate to be able to use Quetico and I hold that favor lightly knowing that it is not a "right" but a privilege.

I don't think QJ can change anything up there in regards to outfitters and park rules.  I'm not advocating change either.  I'm just pointing out an underutilized resource and a mindset that virtually guarantees it will continue to be so.  

Nor do I want to go up there and compete against them (even as I'd kick some tail, of course  :P ) because the moment I open an outfitting business is the moment I've taken my last canoe trip between May 10 and Sept 15.  That, and Mrs. Snow_Dog has made it very clear that we live as far north as she cares to live.  ::)

Agreed, filling cabins is one of the bigger games to be played up there.  But the potential of expanding canoeable wilderness or semi-wilderness isn't being tapped at all.


Quote:

...but after some work, time and talking to people NOT found in a Google search, my experiences were greatly enhanced.

And that's my point.  Outfitters who aren't willing to open up to potential customers (or who just don't know the area they service very well) are going to have a hard time making a go of it.  Then blaming Ely outfitters and penalizing customers for not fitting their definition of "ideal" just makes it worse.

And to clarify, I'm talking about Atikokan-area outfitters only.  Not Canadian outfitters and fly-in posts as a whole.  Sportshows are filled with Canadian fly-in camps, of course.

PhantomJug wrote on Jan 19^th, 2010 at 10:32pm:

I consider myself fortunate to be able to use Quetico and I hold that favor lightly knowing that it is not a "right" but a privilege.

I fully concur with PJ on this!  If I didn't hold Quetico in very high esteem, I certainly wouldn't be treking all the way across the US to get there (and I'm even crazy enough to do it twice during softwater season).  And I must not be paying attention ... I've found everyone I've dealt with along the "north shore" to at least be a neutral interaction (if not absolutely positive).

But having a drive up campground on the shores of Batch is a bit of a concern.   It would be only a small step from there to making Batch a motor lake and due to is proximity/connectivity to Pickeral, it could easily be the next domino to fall.  If those events came to pass, I don't think I'd make any effort to extend my trek to Atikokan to see something similar to Basswood.  Up to now, I've made some attempt to alternate north versus south entries where possible.

dd

DentonDoc wrote on Jan 20^th, 2010 at 12:07am:

I fully concur with PJ on this!

Hell just froze over.


Quote:

But the potential of expanding canoe-able wilderness or semi-wilderness isn't being tapped at all.

And that's their prerogative and really none of our concern.  I would imagine that outfitting is a lifestyle choice for these folks and the business end is about 30% of the equation.  It probably didn't start that way but the reality of the wilderness hospitality business bites hard and often.  Of the dozen or so folks around here that try to make their life easier there are a thousand other folks skewing our efforts.

I have no problem with the status quo up there and am always careful what I wish for. They banned motor use on Pickerel (late 70's?) shortly before my first trip. My take on things is that the Park does what it can to encourage Canadian usage (an uphill climb IMO) rather penalize US pushy Americans with quotas and fee structures. (I always feel strange claiming our continent as my own.)

It is a privilege. That's how it was designed and think that's one of the few points where perception and reality almost meet along wildly different yet parallel and yes, interdependent paths. I get the lifestyle choice concept as well and those choices have consequences too.

Last year there were numerous centennial events planned, which I tried my best to avoid. When I got to Atikokan, the White Otter parking lot was packed as was the Marlin Tree or whatever it's called now. I grabbed the second to last (lower quality but upstairs) room left. Turns out there was a Bass fishing tourney somewhere close by. There were a bunch of events surrounding it including a band that night. Best time I ever had in Atikokan!

Wally - once I get past the Fort Frances or T BAY speed restrictions, there are only three signs that garner my attention. Bump, night danger and sometimes this one:

Quote:

Of the dozen or so folks around here that try to make their life easier there are a thousand other folks skewing our efforts.

I think some of the animosity has to do with the differences between the American culture and the Canadian.

Americans on the whole IMHO are/can be very aggressive compared to other cultures. Canadians are polite/passive for the most part (except on the ice).

Two events pop-out that illustrate that. Both involved Q-Dave who is a real laid back guy, probably at the detriment to being a good businessman, at least by OUR standards.

The year I entered at Stanton Bay, I arrive noon Friday as usual, gassed up, bought some groceries and beer, got my permits at park office and headed for Dave's place on Flanders Lake.

Dave greeted me, we got business out of the way, and loaded my gear and rental canoe on his truck, and since I was staying in the bunkhouse there, we cracked open the beer, he fired up the grill, and we caught up on what was going on in Atikokan and the Park.

I was half-in the bag, when the phone rang and a party that was going into White Otter, Sunday, had decided to drive straight thru and wanted to go in early morning Sat.

They were a big ticket group compared too me, and I could see by the look on Dave's face that he was conflicted on what too do? I wanted early AM start, so there was NO way he could do both. He tried too explain that he had another Sat AM drop off, but they insisted and threatened to use Canoe Canada, IF Dave wouldn't accommodate their last minute plans.

I was sitting right there, so I told him he could take me in tonight, and I would camp at Stanton Bay. When he got off phone, he was upset. He didn't want to take me that late, knowing I was being nice for his sake.
I told him, I understood, it was no big deal and off we went. I got there about dark, and set up Dry-Fly, and hung my Hammock. Dave told me that if any one asked, show them my canoe rental receipt and it would be okay. Later on a Canadian couple drove in, and set up camp for their early AM start. They had some beer, so I traded some info for a few cold Canadians.

When Dave picked me up at Beaverhouse at the end of the trip, he said  the party that insisted on the early AM Saturday start, had arrived closer to noon, and had rented some canoes in Atikokan, and only needed him for drop-off and pick-up. When he told them how I had went out of MY way so he could accommodate them, they didn't bat an eye.

The other incident Dave told me about, was the 4 American Doctors who during the low water season awhile back, had insisted on going in thru 3 Mile Lake, even though Dave told them the water level was extra low, and they might end up walking instead of paddling? They wanted to fish Wolseley, then paddle out into Beaverhouse. Dave suggested dropping them at LLC, same loop, minus 3 mile. They refused.

Dave dropped them off, even gave them last chance as he could see by put-in how low the water was! He had a group going into White Otter, so he didn't get back to his camp until after noon.

He got a few angry messages and finally the Doctors got him in person.
They had struggled, got lost went South instead of East, and wound up at LLC. They wanted Dave to pick them up ASAP. When he gets there, there mad at HIM and want a FULL refund! Seems one of the Doctors had a mild heart attack, as diagnosed by his Cardiologist buddy, and they were basically blaming Dave for the whole situation :(

He told me that he wasn't giving any refunds, and they threatened to bad mouth him too their friends. Dave told them that IF their friends where a dumb as they were, he didn't want their business ;D

Not ALL tourists act like this, just like not ALL Canadians resent Americans, but I've seen and heard enough Americans acting rude and aggressive in foreign countries too know that sometimes were our own worse enemies :(

Interesting reading here, all the different perspectives.

Back to the whole attitude of the Atikokan locals and outfitters feeling "entitled" to Quetico- its just sour grapes.  Facts of geography are that Ely is x mi/km closer to 1000's (10 000's? 100 000's?) more people interested in experiencing a true backcountry wilderness than Atikokan is.  Park policies (influenced heavily by certain loud mouths in Atikokan- most locals couldn't care less- they would never pay to go camping!) have tried to reverse this, but it's a battle that was lost before it was ever fought.  

Having spent a not insignificant amount of time in AT in my lifetime, many local businesses could really take lessons on how to treat guests/ visitors/ customers.  Might help in the repeat customer department, Q paddlers included!

Just my thoughts.