I wear a mustang survival automatic inflatable PFD. I have never seen an inflatable on another paddler. I like it because I always wear it and never know I have it on. I am curious as to why it's not more popular and accepted on still waters? Am I missing something?  :-?

I'm guessing they are more expensive? Are they multi-use?

I intentionally bought a conventional PFD that had large front pockets for survival and fishing gear.  It also provides a handy padded seat for lunch stops (and at other times).

Also I tend to do some of my travel in the shoulder seasons (May/September) when the extra insulation (warmth) is desirable.

dd

Old Salt wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 5:11am:

I'm guessing they are more expensive? Are they multi-use?

They will run anywhere from 1 to 3 bills and certainly not multi purpose.

And yea DD I have always liked the idea of a survival kit in cold or remote places, that would be a must........ (have to be able to make a fire in any circumstance and fast...........If the kits not always with you it won't do you any good). No pockets on mine.

Still, I thought there might be a more intrinsically compelling reason why NOBODY wears one. I would hate to be in a position where I thought to myself "Oh, that's why nobody wears one of these", you know what I mean?

For now Mustang Sally will continue to be like a bad habit. She's so comfy I would be hard pressed to give her up. We'll see if others weigh in, good points though.

I wonder if there is ever a scenario when one would not be able to pull the cord or press the button with Sally? :-?

So how many extra CO2 cartridges do you carry with you on a trip?

I wear these inflatables for other on the water pursuits but not canoe trips. I have a waist belt style (Mustang)and a horse collar style (Stearns). I've always wondered how many cartridges I would bring if I did use them on a trip and then realize the other uses that a standard PFD offer. The cartridges for the waist belt style cost nearly $40. The auto deployed Stearns horse collar style also requires activation tablets that MUST be kept dry. I thought that would be a PIA.

like the other have said, I find a standard PFD to be a multi-use item

often wear it for the extra insulation, keep my map handy in the pocket, use if for my pillow

also, they are reasonably cheap - the one I use in Quetico is a cheapo from Cabelas, and its the lightest PFD I have, so its the one that goes.

since I don't have any problem wearing it, I don't see that an inflateable really offers any advantages for me - so I've never given an inflateable a thought.

and, a regular PFD is fool-proof as long as its on - there is always chance an inflateable will malfunction - maybe even leak air ? and maybe you will catch the ripcord on a pack and have it inflate by accident ?


edit:  I took a look at the Mustang PFDs - couldn't find any weights given, but they don't look to be all that much lighter than my regualr PFD.  Not all the Mustang models had USCG Type III - ratings   - in Colorado, by law, you have to have a USCG Type III for each person in the canoe - so that could be a consideration for anyone buying one (Type II or seat cushion type is not an acceptable alternative- and yes, I've been checked several times)

I looked at the Stearns models a bit also- some said Type V approved for use as Tpe III (and some not) - depending on what the label actually says, these might not "fle" with some of the boating rangers.

its been some time since I've actually read the rules here, but it would be something to check on if I was thinking of getting an inflateable

marlin55388 wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 12:16pm:

I wonder if there is ever a scenario when one would not be able to pull the cord or press the button with Sally? :-?

I used to have one that required a pull but I upgraded to a hydrostatic. That is, it requires actual water pressure to automatically activate. Rain won't do it.

So far I have I have resisted the temptation to bring re-arming cartridges. I can envision a lifetime of paddling in the "Q" and being careful enough not to require a re-arming kit. Worst case scenario is I paddle with it inflated and re-arm when I get home. If I were to paddle moving water or some where other than the "Q" where a spill might be more likely (In spite of paddling my share of snotty stuff I am a cautious paddler) I would certainly gravitate to some other method.

I am not advocating this method for others. This was a purely personal query. In fact I would advocate the exact opposite for others, especially newbies. Anytime you have to depend on a mechanical device there is always the potential for failure and that should be incorporated into the risk taking.

Mad Mat's question as to the legality of an inflatable in the park is quite relevant and had never crossed my mind. I assumed that since U S coast guard wears them and offshore sailors use them it would not be an issue. I have sent an inquiry to the park and will post the results when I get an answer. Mat, if you have saved me eventual grief how do you like your steak? ( or pasta prima vera if your one of those veggie types)

mastertangler wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 12:53pm:

So far I have I have resisted the temptation to bring re-arming cartridges. I can envision a lifetime of paddling in the "Q" and being careful enough not to require a re-arming kit. Worst case scenario is I paddle with it inflated and re-arm when I get home. If I were to paddle moving water or some where other than the "Q" where a spill might be more likely (In spite of paddling my share of snotty stuff I am a cautious paddler) I would certainly gravitate to some other method.

Whatever floats your boat (or yourself, in this case), I guess.  

I can also envision a lifetime of paddling in the Q and never needing a re-arming kit.  However, I can also envision needing one.  Which scenario is more likely?  I hope you don't find out the hard way.  Being a solo canoeist, your margin for error is slimmer than for tandem paddlers or those who travel in groups.

Part of risk assessment for me is what are the consequences of failure?  In this case, death is a very real possibility.  For me, that means a regular PFD, not a self-inflating model.  As a dad and husband, I take death pretty seriously not just for myself, but also for the effect on my family.  But again, that's just me.

Well put Snow Dog.

My problem is I can easily envision myself NOT wearing a regular PFD if it was hot or I'm out fishing. Maybe I haven't tried the right one, they seem bulky to me. With my luck I would be out in the middle of Kawanipi on a perfectly calm day with my regular PFD sitting beside me and I would hook one of those humper-thing-a-ma-bobs that Jimbo or old Salt was talkin about and that would be the end of me.

As it is now I feel naked without the Mustang on. I admit I was skeptical of the sterns model with the pull tab and all that so I upgraded. Believe you me, I'm concerned about safety and am always asking the question "what's the worse that can happen". I even portage the easy swifts up on the Maligne near Sturgeon just to be on the safe side.
My munchkin needs her Papa.  

I have a regular PFD that is very comfortable to wear. I wear it anytime I'm on the water, even if I'm just yards from shore casting for smallies on a quiet evening. While pollyhumpers are not known to be in shallow waters, there is still a lot that we do not know about these mysterious creatures...

My PFD has a mesh upper, with the flotation more around the midsection & back.

I hardly recommend this vest. Cool mesh and the large pockets allow you to carry a small fire starter kit. On sale now.
The back padding is nice even if you use a canoe seat. It's called the comfort mesh vest, #9IS-943049

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solotripper wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 11:48pm:

I hardly recommend this vest.

You hardly recommend... is that an endorsment or not? I have a similar vest and often forget that I have it on. I sometimes find myself setting up camp then realizing I still have it on. Never been overboard in it however, that's probably something I should try before I get too comfortable. But I guess any PFD is better than none.

Okay, I'll admit it: I don't wear a life vest.  

I sit on it.  All you other sinners, chime in, cuz I'm going to get beat up on this!

prouboy

I have sinned :-[ But I'm getting better at wearing mine, I even wear my seatbelt now.

Gentlemen, please, not wearing a PFD of some sort is just plain unacceptable.

I only wear mine judiciously in bad weather or when cold. I did make a trip last May when I wore it every day on the water. I was cold and a little scared of the cold water. In July and August I rarely wear my PFD unless the waves are rockin and rollin.

I wear mine! A given within the family. Check out the kayak PFD's , very comfy...When I made a step up to a Solquist, Wow, one of the best pieces of gear I ever PU'ed. ;)

Opps-

I wear mine, it is for the family...and unspoken rule/habit. Check out the Kayak PFD's. When I made the step to replace the old tattered unit....found a "Solquist" on sale. One of the best pieces of gear I ever PU'ed. Very comfy and light ;) Multi-use too...butt pad for the dry lunches, 250# broken legged woman carrier, clothes changing pad, pillow, warm vest for those chilly dayz, survival kit carrier... there's more but me think ya get the picture. And I all I have to do is put it on and clip and zip and that's it...I float, and I aint a turd, IMHO ;D

I thought their purpose was   (You need to Login or Register! (Green Sterns under the conveniently placed, spare paddle.) Yeah, I'm not that bad anymore. I at least keep it handy and not bungied down.  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

I have always worn my seat belt. In MY car, seat belts are mandatory for everyone. It keeps me in place on the corners and I feel naked and vulnerable w/o it.

In a canoe however, it's a personal preference. The PFD goes on only when waves warrant it. If I'm wearing it I probably also have a painter tied to myself so the canoe can't blow away from me.

I might float these days but when I bought mine I sank like a rock and I got a bright yellow one to make it easy to spot my body - saving retrieval costs. It's comfy but does interfere with other things I may have in my shirt pockets plus, to me, it's a "feel good" false sense of security. It does have my ditch kit in it though so....

You like wearing yours - good for you! If not, that's fine too. Like I'd notice or care. There was one day when I overheard the very young son of a father and son team say: "He's not wearing his...." I put down the paddle and put it on. I then waved hello as in thanks for the reminder. I get the example thing but I took it off again when the kid was out of sight.

If I had to choose one or the other, I feel a lot "safer" with the painter tied to me than the with PFD - on, buckled, zipped and cinched tight. Within easy reach works for both most of the time.

A friend of a friends Dad was a policeman in a major metropolitan area for many years. He remarked that he had never responded to a major traffic accident in which a fatality had happened where the victim had been wearing a seatbelt. I suspect (and I bet statistics will bear this out) that a similar comparison can be made with PFD's. How many drowning victims had a PFD on? Not many I suspect.

Is there a more inherently dangerous watercraft than a canoe? ( yea I know, the Titanic and rafts put together with vines come to mind) But you get my drift. I know many of you are very experienced and feel confident of evaluating risk. There is always the unexpected though. I have occasionally wondered how many drowning are as a result of a medical condition? Vertigo, fainting, heart attack or stroke (God Forbid) to name a few. These can come on suddenly and if you or your partner find yourself far from shore, capsized as a direct result of the body giving out.......Unlikely perhaps. But I suspect it happens more often than anyone would think and the ability to determine wether the condition happened before or after the drowning would be difficult or impossible to ascertain. This is just one way a boat could conceivably go over. Of course there are the usual suspects. Big waves and throw in a little "side current" and bingo. I had not intended to get morbid but rather make a point. As Snow Dog has already pointed out the consequences are potentially catastrophic for you and loved ones.

My little boat handles rough water amazingly well. It just bobs right along. I have skirted the shores of Bayley while tandems stacked up waiting for the evening calm. I have had big following seas push me the entire length of Argo. But my wake up call came on a perfectly flat portage landing. A rounded rock had caught my boat amidship and gave a false sense of security. I was completely stunned at how quickly I was in the water. I know this isn't a very good example but that feeling of being stunned and surprised at being in the water would probably be a shared trait among those that find themselves in H2O.

Earlier I had said I was not an advocate of an inflatable. I will be one now to those of you that for various reasons choose not to wear a PFD. You REALLY don't even know you have the thing on. It will be there for you when you need it. If you can swing it I suggest the higher quality. I like the self inflating hydrostatic model I have. Water pressure is required to activate it. There is a clear window with a color code. Green is go. With 35lbs of flotation (you need at least 8 to stay afloat) you are good to go even offshore in the salty stuff. The Coast Guard wears them so I think if you get a quality brand you would be hard pressed to go wrong. Think about it. Snow Dog put it best.

"Expect the unexpected"

On the seatbelt thing... years ago I was broadsided by a drunk woman who ran a stoplight doing they estimated about 70 MPH in a 35. Had I been wearing my seatbelt I would be not writing this now. That being said, I wear mine now as a first responder... The hardest thing to wittness is death... espesially when it could have been avoided. Same with PFD's, as I get older I realize I'm not the swimmer I once was although I sometimes forget I do a better job at wearing it. It helped a lot when I got one I was comfortable in vs a walmart just to have in the boat to be legal one. I live on a lake and when my grand kids visit I plan to teach them good habits as it's taking me a life time to break the bad ones.

I hardly ever used to wear mine. I thought it was too uncomfortable and I'm a pretty good swimmer and quite capable in a canoe. But then when I started taking occasional groups of kids, scouts and church, I figured I should also be wearing one since I was making the kids wear one. I just didn't want to be a hypocrate. I eventually but a slightly better mesh top vest and got used to it. Now it feels strange without it and I have a hard time not wearing it.

Quote:

I suspect (and I bet statistics will bear this out) that a similar comparison can be made with PFD's. How many drowning victims had a PFD on? Not many I suspect.

The same logic can be applied to whether or not wears a PFD while swimming in a pool.

This is not saying the risk in a pool is equivalent to the risk of a canoist.  it just is pointing out that line of reasoning does not hold water (pun intended).  

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Mastertangler: "to infinity and beyond" as quoted by Buzz....

What would Buzz do?   :)........ ROCK ON        [smiley=thumbup.gif]

---

I don't always wear a PFD in my fishing boat, even though I should. I have one within reach, however, and I use another square foam float to sit on. Not that either would do me any good if I were by myself, and I happened to fall into the river or the notoriously choppy lake that I usually fish on.

When I'm in my canoe, however, I always have a PFD on and strapped up properly. I had my first canoe mishap when I was very young, and have had several since, though none were serious and none were recent. However, I've come to respect how little it takes to tip a canoe, especially a tandem, where you don't have control of the other person's body and reactions (another good reason for a solo). A few of those mishaps could have been worse than they turned out, had nobody been wearing PFD's.

Another point of concern is the flotation factor of my little Royalex canoe. When it fills with water, and I don't get out of it, it sinks like a rock. Filled  with gear on a cold northern lake, alone and miles from any sort of help, that could be a disaster. I grew up paddling my old man's freight-tanker Old Town, which would still float even when full of water and several giggling kids, so having my Royalex boat sink underneth me was a sobering experience. Especially since I conducted the test after my solo trip last spring, during which I rode her, overloaded, through some choppy spring-time water that in retrospect, I probably should have waited out and avoided.

I'm upgrading my tiny little Royalex Sandpiper this spring, so hopefully the slightly larger boat will have better flotation should the unthinkable happen. I haven't driven a kevlar, so I can't speak for those, but I encourage everyone to bring their canoe to the beach one day this summer, and get used to how it reacts to being rocked, tipped, and swamped. You might be surprised at the results.

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that being alone doesn't leave a person with a very big margin for error, and I couldn't agree more. Being solo anywhere changes all the rules. Even if one wears a PFD religiously, is always careful and vigilant on the trail, and carries out all tasks in camp with that certain level of perfection gained through experience, suffice to say, sh** still happens. Anything one can do to lower the level of risk, or to better prepare for the unexpected, is time and effort well spent.

Two friends of mine, who accidentally tipped their canoe while evening fishing in the BW in late fall, a few miles away and on a different lake from their camp, will tell you that wearing a PFD and having a ditch-kit on your person are two of the best things you can do "just in case." They didn't have either, and they owe their lives to their third travel partner, who happened to be an EMT. The EMT "had a feeling" that they had gone in the water as the darkness fell and they hadn't returned to camp, and through training, intuition, and luck, he was able to find them - shivering violently and trying to paddle back to camp with their hands - and do all the right things to get them warm and dry.

These guys were all experienced in wilderness. One of them taught at several ELC's, is currently a commercial pilot, and has summited several peaks in North America and greater Asia. The other is an avid climber, hunter, and paddler.

The moral of the story? Confidence is no excuse for complacency.

Quote:

However, I've come to respect how little it takes to tip a canoe, especially a tandem, where you don't have control of the other person's body and reactions (another good reason for a solo).

Yeah, as a solo paddler most of the time, you gotta do something really dumb to flip a canoe on flat water - there's no help - blame. Somehow I feel like I'm an expert 'cause I did it all on my own on my first or second spring trip.

Years later in august w/ my own boat, I went out (with the PFD ON) and tried to flip it in a moderate surf blowing into a sandy beach. I couldn't do it! Seriously, and I'd never paddle that boat empty any any other time. It's tippy when empty. My timing is bad though and with more experience I think I could use a wave to flip it. I could fall out and it would take on some water but I guess canoes vary wildly in what it takes to actually flip one. My nemesis was oil canned and I got out once I realized what was happening. Canoe design has come a long way.

My favorite time of year to do a trip is Spring and it's what I know best, when it freeken hurts to wash your hands in the lake. Wearing a PFD in spring would be a waste of time if paddling the same courses I now do in august. That's why I say they give a false sense of security. Hey, be careful out there! The livin is easy in August.

Yes, wearing one is good but consider it just another tool in the drawer. You wear your placebo and hooray that's grate ;) but think of what happens after you pull that tool out of that drawer and actually use it. How fast can you swim in it.... Then what? How long can you bob around and wait for help to paddle up and rescue your butt.

Take away? Confidence is no excuse for complacency any more than wisdom trumps knowledge. Yeah, I'm old get confused all the time. Just think a few moves ahead so when mother nature says "Check" your next move is a given.

DB..... [smiley=thumbup.gif]"expect the unexpected".

[quote author=solotripper link=1268283928/10#12 date=1268351304]I hardly recommend this vest. Cool mesh and the large pockets allow you to carry a small fire starter kit. On sale now.
The back padding is nice even if you use a canoe seat. It's called the comfort mesh vest, #9IS-943049

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Obviously a typo error ;D  It's a great vest and I water tested it with the pockets loaded with my ditch kit. It floated me just fine, all 195#. I'm confidant it would float a much heavier guy than me. The comfort factor takes away one of the major complaints about some PFD'S.

Not going to revive the whole PFD debate. But the seatbelt comment is relevant too the subject. Like seat belts, they only work if your wearing them. Worse case scenario, they'll help the authorities identify your body ;D IF you make the decision not to wear one, hopefully you have the swimming skills to back it up? Anyone who has tried to put on a PFD once in the water, knows it's damn near impossible.
Since I travel alone, I choose to wear one anytime I'm on the water. I've learned over the years to hope for the best, be prepared for the worst ;) So far it's kept me out of harms way.
 
 

Suggesting the use of PFD's to canoeists / boaters / fishermen is like suggesting helmets to motorcycle riders... the ensuing debate is almost always spirited. But like bike helmets, seatbelts, and all other 'background' safety devices, chances are you'll never need to find out how good (or bad) they can be. Not wearing one is a calculated risk and a personal choice, and going either way doesn't guarantee any particular outcome.

For me, the redeeming quality is the fact that they do a pretty good job of keeping you afloat and upright all by themselves, while your mind is temporarily focused elsewhere in those critical first few seconds. That's it. After that, any number of things could still make you a statistic, but it's still one more pawn in front of Nature's queen(s), just in case she tries to cheat a little.

I just hope she doesn't try to cheat when I'm in my fishing boat, being the hypocritical PFD advocate that I am...

It's been interesting to read about people's experiences with the other types of PFD's on the market, as my only experience has been with the sub-$20 jackets that haven't changed much since the beginning of time. Perhaps this year I will upgrade my PFD along with my canoe... I think the self-inflating models are out of my price range but some of the others look more comfortable than what I've got now.

db, you've got the right idea with the painter line. A PFD and a ditch kit are good, but a way home is even better. Do you just tie it to your ankle or something?

Akula wrote on Mar 16^th, 2010 at 1:23am:

db, you've got the right idea with the painter line. A PFD and a ditch kit are good, but a way home is even better. Do you just tie it to your ankle or something?

I'll tie it to my ankle or wrap around my waist depending on my mood. I fell out once and had to chase it a bit.... Canoes could surely go b-bye pretty quickly in certain conditions and I need that thing. It's my ride man.

 I have a D-ring on my PFD. Next to my canoe seat, I have a short line, maybe 5-6", tied to seat and the tag end has a quick clip carabiner attached to it.

My idea is that if I go over and I'm out a good distance and the wind is pushing me/canoe from shore, I'll clip to D-ring and see if I can rudder to nearest shoreline?

Of course dependiong on distance and water temp, I might have to cut the canoe loose rather than be dragged into hypothermia :'(
Sort of a paddlers version of Ahab and the White Whale ;)

I have an inflatable that I use when sailing.  It is small and compact, and is out of the way when handling lines, grinding, maneuvering on a pitching deck, etc.  If I get heaved into the drink there, I'll be clear of the boat in a flash, and free to yank away at the inflation tab (if conscious!).

But I like to foam pfd for canoeing for all the reasons listed above, and a few more.  I've had a couple of unexpected tumbles from a canoe.  In each case, it was the other guy's fault (of course!), and I was still clutching the canoe.  Actually, I was still "in" it as it rolled over or swamped!  Having it blow away wasn't a problem.

The added insulation is a plus, as is the butt pad for sitting on the rocks.  It makes a good napping pillow too.  Most of all, during the peak season I go swimming each day.  Having the pfd on I can swim with boots, feel secure, not get tired out, rinse out articles of clothing, etc.  I can't imagine how I could do all that with an inflatable riding up in my face!

WS  

mastertangler wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 1:37pm:

Mad Mat's question as to the legality of an inflatable in the park is quite relevant and had never crossed my mind. I assumed that since U S coast guard wears them and offshore sailors use them it would not be an issue. I have sent an inquiry to the park and will post the results when I get an answer. Mat, if you have saved me eventual grief how do you like your steak? ( or pasta prima vera if your one of those veggie types)

Not sure if anyones really interested BUT I did say I would post the results about the inquiry concerning inflatables when I got the response back from the park.

They are in line with Transport Canada and have no special regulations. What ever is legal country wide is also acceptable in the park. There is one hitch however, it must be worn to be considered a PFD. Can't be just laying there.

ARe we still allowed to talk about wearing a pfd?  Many thoughtful comments on the issue and I feel compelled to chime in.  A few years ago we went in the drink on the fattest part of Basswood lake.  It was a SW wind and we should not have tried to cross.  Anyway, here is one more reason to wear it.  

If you go over and you are not wearing your PFD, the guy in your canoe who IS wearing your PFD will have to risk his life to save yours.  My partner was sitting on his, and in my efforts to make sure he got it on and didn't drown during the process, we both lost our paddles.  We stayed with the canoe until it drifted us into a reef in the very center of the lake.  We sat there and watched the inevitable thunderstorm approach wondering how the hell to get to a safe place without a paddle.  So, we did the only thing we could think of and hopped in the canoe and let the wind push us swiftly back toward North bay where we mercifully found a lee and were able to hand paddle the boat to shore.  

Wearing your PFD will not only save your own life, but it also will not needlessly endanger the life of your partner.