Looks like we might have 5 going to the Q this summer.  

I know that this issue has been discussed before, but couldn't find a comprehensive discussion of the issue via search.

So I'm hoping you'll bear with me and offer some insights:

1)  3-person canoe plus a tandem, or one solo plus two tandems?  Upsides/downsides of each?

2)  Can a solo newbie safely handle a solo canoe in the Q?  Would he/she be able to keep pace with a tandem?

3)  If solo, any thoughts on the SR Tranquility?  I believe that's what our LLC outfitter offers.

No one in our group has any solo canoe experience.  Won't have a chance to paddle one before going to the Q.  

Thanks for your insights!

What are the group dynamics and emphasis of the trip?  Fish a lot or more travelling, setting up camp and covering ground?  If you're fishing a lot I would have 2 tandems and a solo and take turns with the solo.  If you're moving around a lot and in the canoe for transportation more, I would recommend the 3-person and tandem and take turns duffing.

A solo canoe will probably not keep pace with a tandem - but a kayak would.  I don't kayak but I have before.  Took me about 2 hours to get the hang of it, keep a straight line and stay dry.  It's like riding a bike right?

PhantomJug wrote on Apr 9^th, 2010 at 8:05pm:

What are the group dynamics and emphasis of the trip?  Fish a lot or more travelling, setting up camp and covering ground?

A little bit of both!  Bottle-Crooked-Argo-Darkwater-Minn over 7 days.  Planning 4 different camps.  

The kayak idea intrigues me.  How does one handle a kayak on portages?

Traveller wrote on Apr 9^th, 2010 at 8:27pm:

How does one handle a kayak on portages?

I would get out and carry it.  (Sorry - couldn't resist)  I'm not sure and would defer to a real kayaker out there but I think they hoist up on one shoulder?

4 camps in 7 days sounds like more travel vs. fishing (to me at least) so I think the 3-person and a tandem would be my choice.  As a hardcore basecamper I rarely fish in a loaded canoe except going in and out of the park.

Traveller,

I like PJ's idea of the 2 tandems and a solo with the switching around paddling partners. The solo probably wouldn't keep up with the tandems, but in a group setting with everyone rotating I think things would stay pretty even. It would be a great opportunity for everyone to develop strong skills in a solo, plus it gives you an extra boat for the fishing days and more room in the tandems.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

Traveller wrote on Apr 9^th, 2010 at 8:27pm:

[quote author=PhantomJug link=1270842942/0#1 date=1270843511]The kayak idea intrigues me.  How does one handle a kayak on portages?

You'd probably need some sort of device, like a big shoulder strap kind of thingy or a removeable protage yoke. I used a yoke. The real pain is packing an unpacking the hatches at each end of the portage....but since you have canoes in the group....maybe you can mooch off off some of their extra carrying capacity.

Making a canoe go isn't hard. Any chance someone will drop out between now and then?

It is dreaded in some ways. We use to tell people to find a partner or stay home. That worked out ok but we soon learned to tell the odd person that s/he was 'responsible' for the person they brought.

Just like any group, you wait for the slowest canoe or watch for them if you do/go something/somewhere unusual.

I have to say that the three person SRQ18 has worked out very well for me on a couple of long trips. There was always someone willing to occupy that middle seat. If you don't have a willing duffer things might get tense. You also need to have someone who is willing to not fish when conditions don't allow it however there have been times when we've been able to troll 3 lines. In fact there was one memorable triple header on lake trout last year on Bunny Lake in WCP. Fishing 3 lines can also make for some memorable fire drills and fubars. It's all part of the adventure.
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I guess I"m with Drewfus... 2 tandems & a solo, rotate solo assignments, build solo skills, stick relatively close together as a group.  I've seen Kingfisher's 3-in-1 option work nicely but I wouldn't touch it in a canoe of lesser size than his 18 footer.  

Also, KF's citation of the adventure/fubar potential can work TWO different ways on group morale.  On one hand, please note Magic Paddler smiling contentedly with his feet propped-up as KF & Dede cheerfully chauffeur him about WCP like the King of Siam.  This is a case involving a well-tuned group with a generally constructive positive approach to the challenges & hardships of any given day.

ON THE OTHER HAND, sometimes personalities don't mesh so well.  Putting three persons in the tub together merely catalyzes underlying issues with group dynamics... especially when hardships arise.  My case in point involves this story of hardship:   (You need to Login or Register   Never, ever, ever should I have put my Type A wild man brother in the same canoe as my more laid-back & reflective buddy Tom who preferred to slow down & smell the roses, so to speak.  Bad choice... very, very bad!  Strangely enough, on that particular (first ever) trip to Quetico, the three of us consciously elected the three in a boat option while we TOWED a perfectly functional solo canoe (into which most of our packs, etc., were loaded).  Ultimately, we came to our senses after a few days, & put the wild man into the solo where he could have his "space" (& before he could kill Tom).  As a result, camp morale quickly soared.

Bottom line: group dynamics should be closely considered before selecting the 3-in-1 option.

Like I said, I'm with Drewfus on this one.

Jimbo   8-)

Jimbo and I would ask what do you do with an even number of paddlers.  Most of the time the answer is take 2 solo boats.  The exceptions would be. Too many newbes in the group,  trip is lots of travel over strenuous and un known territory.
MagicPaddler

Traveller,

I would go with two tandems and one kayak, if available for rent. I've done that before with a 5-man group, and I took my kayak. A decent paddler in a kayak can easily outpace a canoe, IMO.

I have a ~14' plastic OT kayak. I slid an internal frame pack up under the front deck and a decent sized dry bag under the rear deck. Plus it was very stable to fish from. Carry it over portages with a removable yoke.

Ranger

I ran into this same issue on my last trip into the Q.  We ended up with 5 people when a group member pulled out at the last minute. When deciding between the options of 3 canoes or 2 canoes, these thoughts came into play:            
1) We had a couple newbies, so inexperience in the stern would have been a factor.  We had 2 members of the group that were the most capable.
2) We thought taking only 2 canoes might allow us to carry everything in one trip across portages.
3) We didn't think anyone would be able to keep up solo.
3) No one wanted to sit ackwardly on the canoe bottom for 7 hours at a clip with a canoe bar in their back.

We ended up taking 2 canoes, and we managed every portage with 1 trip across (a huge plus  :)).  The same 2 paddlers manned the sterns the entire trip, while the remaining 3 switched off equal time between the bows and the middle of 3 person canoe.  It turned out fine, and we said we were glad having done it that way.  The only downfall was trying to fish 3 people out of a canoe after we found that deep water walleye hot spot, but we were able to pull it off.  At one time we actually had a lake trout and 2 walleyes on the 3 lines at the same time.  Pandemonium in a canoe.  

generally, a good paddler in a solo canoe can keep up with good paddlers in a tandem if you keep to a reasonable pace (i.e not flat out as fast as you can go) - a not so good paddler will have more trouble keeping up with a tandem team, even if they are also not so good - its just easier in a tandem

the difference isn't so much in speed as in the amount of work it takes to keep up that pace.  The solo paddler is going to be working harder, especially in headwinds where you can't just coast for a bit to take a break.  Consider also that that difference is cumulative - you'd be wanting to switch off in the solo.

I bought my first solo boat for a 3 person trip and never looked back.

Lots of recommendations for the solo option, but I guess it's no surprise because many on this forum typically travel solo.  I guess this could be a good trip to try out solo paddling, but I'd recommend a trial run on a lake near your home.  That way, if you hate it, you're not stuck for several days.

Although I'd love to try it, I have not paddled a solo canoe, but don't mind soloing in a tandem canoe.  If you decide on 3 people to one canoe, I'd highly recommend the Souris River 18.5' with 3rd seat.  Many outfitters in Ely have it, and it's very spacious and comfortable for 3 people.  Frankly, 3 people to a canoe is my prefered travel method, as it helps with single or 1.5 portaging.  I dislike a group size of 7 the most.  With all 3 people paddling, a canoe will flat out fly, even in a headwind.  However, fishing while traveling does indeed pose a challenge.  Since a few members of our regular group don't fish, have no interest in fishing, and don't even really like the taste of fish (heresy, I know!) it isn't a problem.  They get to relax in camp, explore the woods, catch up on reading, or whatever else they like to do.  Meanwhile, we have enough canoes to have 2 fishers in each, and our travel speed means we have a lot of time to fish once we get to camp.  Just take stock of your group's personalities, abilities and goals to make your decision.

Talking about two tandems and a kyak. I did a trip like that a long while back, except it was three people, 1 tandom and me in a kyak. It worked out pretty well that way because the bulk of the gear went in the tandem and there wasn't as much of the packing/ unpacking of the kyak at portages. I just left the little bit of stuff I had in the hatches in there on the portages, took a little to figure out the balance but not too bad after that. There was two newbies in the tandem and I easily outpaced them with the kyak. For the portages, I used a kyak yoke that spring creek makes. It was a little hassle to strap it on and off at every portage but since I could travel faster I usually just kicked it up a bit before each portage and had it ready to go and often over the portage before the tandem got there so I could carry their stuff over also.

 They make portage yokes for kayaks, they have them in the Piragis catalog.
 I wouldn't under any circumstances put a Newbie in a solo canoe, at least not in a place like the BW/Q.

I paddled a SR Tranquility my first time solo in the Q. It was an early model that Quetico Dave had for rent. It was a nerve racking experience for the first few days. Mid-May, the weather was up and down. It was very tippy feeling to me, but I got used to it after a few days of trial and error.
 
The worst part, was my packs which are fine for tandem width canoes, didn't fit in solo. I had to turn them on there side, which left them sticking above gunnel's, which I really hate. In crosswinds they caught air like sails and added to the drama ;D
 
My one and only dunking came in that solo canoe. Part bad judgment on my end, high center of gravity on the SR's.
 
The new models have adjustable height seats. They also seem to have a different seat frame set-up, compared to the old one.  
 I'd make damn sure your packs can be stowed BELOW the gunnel's, and keep the seat as low as you can, and still be comfortable.

No one has mentioned it, but as a dedicated double paddler, I'll throw it out. Unless you have kayak experience, you'll have a learning curve with a double kayak paddle too. The solo will carry more gear, and is easier to unload and portage. You could always carry just the packs that fit in easy from the other canoe(s). With an experienced paddler/fit paddler, that solo with a double paddle should be able to keep up with a tandem at a normal cruising pace once the solo paddler gets the hang of the double, which he will have to do if you go the kayak route.
 
I rent a SR16 Kevlar tandem, and paddle from front seat. I won't say I can keep up with a tandem that's going all out, but I move along pretty well, fast enough for most situations.

Another very important thing, is making sure your loaded correctly. Slightly bow heavy will work in most situations, other than a real strong tailwind.  Being out in open water is no time for wishing you had the right load set-up :'(

Personal preference.  
Depending on the boats & paddler skill, a solo could outperform a tandem.  
Last year I had no problem in a Swift Heron keeping up with a Wenonah Prospector.  The difference being 1' in length and width giving the Heron a L:W ratio of 7.6 & the Wenonah being 4.9.  With equal power applied the Wenonah goes near half as fast.  Incomplete calculations, but a decent guideline for basic efficiency.

What is meant by no solo experience?  Never soloed a canoe or never paddled a dedicated solo?  Going from soling a 16' to a dedicated solo is awesome.  You never felt so pampered in all your life.  Going from never solo to soloing depends on your skilz.  If you know your strokes, at least 4 different strokes, should be no problem.

I think the biggest problem with a solo canoe in the mix is becoming windbound.  Tandem can handle a lot more gnarly action than a solo.

Thanks for all the great  input.  Here's a little more information--I hope people will continue to chime in.

1)  By "no solo experience", I meant "no experience paddling solo, period."  

2)  Not newbies (about 10 Q trips), but not accomplished technical paddlers.  I know the J and C, and occasionally use the pry and draw but that's about it.

3)  Unfortunately, I don't think that kayak will be an option due to logistics.  Our outfitter doesn't appear to offer them (and we're going directly from Minneapolis to LLC).

I'm tempted by the solo (I'd be the one in it most of the time), but am concerned about staying upright and keeping up.  I like swimming as much as the next guy, but . . . .

Traveller,
Most of my tripping has been done in a bell merlin which is a true solo. When I first gave her a whirl the seat came from the factory hiked rather high which naturally gave me a higher center of gravity and the craft really felt unstable. I installed a set of "seat drops" which really helped give me confidence.

I would suggest splitting up your gear somewhat so you have some options in distributing weight. I have one "main pack" but I also have 3 smaller dry bags which can ride behind me. After loading give her a good looking over to see how she's riding. I generally like her to be level.

I can't speak for other solos (although I would suspect similar handling) but mine has an initial stability and a secondary stability. Sometimes the boat might feel unsteady but lean her over a tad and mine tightens right up.

You will also probably be surprised at how the solos can handle the rough. Mine just bobs like a cork. It can actually be rather invigorating. I'm a chicken though and usually hug the shoreline when it's snotty.

While I'm no vet compared to some on this site, I have done a fair amount of traveling in the "Q" over the past 10 years. I've dumped my boat twice while getting in after loading. I'm no Klutz, make good time on portages and it is rare indeed when I have a spill so these events were shockers to me. But they happened and I'm not too proud to admit it. One dump was just plain being exhausted and stupid and not watching what I was doing. The other was a bit more subtle. Picture loading up next to a rounded rock (of which there are plenty) which catches your boat amidship. If you mistake this "side grab=false stability" for a rock which has caught the bottom of your vessel it will release at the most inopportune time I can assure you.

If you embrace the solo canoe experience I believe you will find it very rewarding. I certainly have. You will have the best of both worlds, paddling your own vessel but yet company at the campsite.  

Sounds to me like deep down, you *want* to solo but you just need a push to convince you it's OK...or maybe it's your friends that need convincing that you won't slow them down?

Soloing isn't nearly as difficult as it seems when you've never done it.  I was a diehard tandem canoeist until last year when it was either solo or stay home for me.  I took a 9-day solo trip and I'm very glad I took the plunge (figuratively speaking only).  Up until the moment I shoved off I had no experience in a solo canoe.

The butterflies lasted about halfway across Inlet Bay on Basswood.  After that I felt very comfortable.  I tried a double-bladed paddle but that style of paddle uses different muscles, so I switched over to a single-blade and didn't lose all that much speed.  

I'm in decent-but-not-fantastic shape for my age and I had little difficulty keeping up with tandems that were heading in the same direction as me down the S-Chain.  They weren't racing me or anything, but they weren't loafing around either.

I got into some hefty headwinds and was still able to keep a decent steady pace of travel.  I even accidentally got into some surf that only an idiot would try to canoe thru and I managed to stay afloat until I could reach calmer water.  The key is to stay loose in your seat, keep your torso centered and vertical and let the canoe roll with the waves under you.  The canoe WANTS to stay upright.  Usually when it doesn't it's because someone panicked and made a dumb move.

4 travel days on your loop is not going to kill you in a solo, either.  I've done that same loop several times and none of the days is particularly difficult.  You'll do just fine.

I'm in a party of 3 this year.  A tandem plus me in a solo.  I can't wait to get out there again in my own canoe!

I have been on trips where we chose each of these options. Kayak or solo canoe.

The Kayak drawbacks are: small hatches make loading/unloading gear at portages very slow. Gear neeeds to be in multiple small bundles for ease of loading which is less than ideal for portaging.   As for portaging the boat itself, I have seen and tried overhead rigs that allow you to portage with weight on both shoulders, but I thought they sucked.  The best way was one arm inside the cockpit, stretched toward the front with the cockpit combing on your shoulder. This can compete for space with a portage pack and also puts all the boat weight on one shoulder.

The solo canoe: much easier to load/unload and portage. Maybe a bit slower since you only have half the paddle, but This is now our prefered choice.

Neither the kayak nor the solo canoe could keep up with the tandem boats. But we didn't stress about it... we rotated crews and boats and just went with the flow.

We now use solo canoes whenever we have oddballs. We may even take two tandem boats and two solos on our 6-man trip this summer.

PJ in Hawaii

We trip each year with whom ever can make the trip.  We have anywhere from three to nine in our group.  Normally, two in each canoe with the odd number one riding as "princess" in the odd boat.  Works well, but only three in the group is the worst senario. We took a solo when this happened on a Spring trip a few years ago and it worked very well.  The solo could out perform the tamdem.  I may even try solo trip in the future; although I like the companionship of a group trip.

starwatcher

I have only played around with paddling a canoe solo and then only in boats not designed to be specifically solo.  So I am not expert, but I have to believe if you take a solo canoe, you are increasing significantly your chances of becoming wind-bound, since the amount of wind needed to ground an inexperienced soloist is far less than what you would get with a double/triple canoe combination.

azalea wrote on Apr 24^th, 2010 at 7:35pm:

I have only played around with paddling a canoe solo and then only in boats not designed to be specifically solo.  So I am not expert, but I have to believe if you take a solo canoe, you are increasing significantly your chances of becoming wind-bound, since the amount of wind needed to ground an inexperienced soloist is far less than what you would get with a double/triple canoe combination.

I did not find this to be true on my solo trip last year (first time ever in a solo canoe).  I mean, if I'd gotten into a nasty headwind on the first day, this might have been true, but a couple hours into my trip I felt very comfortable that I could handle headwinds.  Didn't get into any serious headwinds until Day 5 and they didn't slow me down any worse than they would have slowed a tandem.

Part of the deal with a solo is you have a much better length-to width ratio as a true solo is much narrower than a tandem yet it's nearly as long.  This is a much more efficent hull shape that helps enormously in making up for the fact that you have only 50% of the paddle power of a tandem crew.  

I'm no physicist so I can't give you exact figures, nor was I in the neighborhood of any tandems to measure myself against them, but I would estimate conservatively that I had at least 85-90% of the efficiency in my solo that I normally enjoy in a tandem.  I bucked a strong headwind and plenty of rain from Suz all the way down to Kett in less than a full day of paddling and I'm a pretty average-sized guy with average paddle power using a single-bladed stick.

azalea wrote on Apr 24^th, 2010 at 7:35pm:

I have only played around with paddling a canoe solo and then only in boats not designed to be specifically solo.  So I am not expert, but I have to believe if you take a solo canoe, you are increasing significantly your chances of becoming wind-bound, since the amount of wind needed to ground an inexperienced soloist is far less than what you would get with a double/triple canoe combination.

Tandem will almost always be able to take on gnarlier water than solo.  Where that line is drawn comes down to padler skill & the boat being soloed.  I'll plow an Argosy into stuff I wouldn't take a bow-backwards prospector into.  That fine line between fun and fear.

I was a strong proponent for the tandem backwards thing and it still works for me though you will get stuck more often than true solos or good tandems.

I've paddled my tandem with really good bow paddlers and others who were, shall we say ... good company. It's got a lot more miles on it with just me in it. I cannot keep up with good paddlers in a modern tandem but I would be waiting for the rest of the group in anything below a light chop. With two people, pit stops take more than twice as long. Even tandems decide they are windbound if it takes 20 minutes to go a few hundred yards. Treadmill - Paddlemill? Sometime it just ain't worth it.

My trip last year was the first time I ever paddled a true solo and I gotta say I was impressed. I paddled through the biggest waves I ever have and made decent progress. A few days later I was staring at whitecaps crashing at the end of a portage. I was in no mood to wait it out. Worst case? I wash up where I started. Hardest part was loading up and getting in. It actually required some thought with no one around to keep it off the rocks while loading. Paddling in it wasn't a problem although I did go out of my way and head into the wind. I didn't know the boat well enough to paddle the crests & troughs broadside - even near shore. Maybe someday.

Bottom line, paddling solo is easier since the only balance you need to consider is your own. You don't need to consider what a bow paddler might react to and how and the wind has less to grab.

Back on topic - Traveller, my advice to you is - be the martyr! Take the solo on the condition you never have to do the dishes or whatever you hate doing the most and keep that little gem all to yourself. If you end up hating it, well then, it must be someone else's turn....

Fun and fear is in the eye of the beholder but there is also knowing how to use the right tool for the job and making it work. You can always make due but there's a lot of satisfaction in finding the sweet spot. And what's the saying? Two's company and something about a crowd? Your mileage may vary ... greatly.

My partner cancelled out of a mid June trip into Pickerel Lake. I am pretty well locked into a 9 day slot  during this period. The drive is about 1100 miles 1 way soI'm probably only going to have 5-6 days to be on the water. I have always base camped the west end of Pickerel and don't know how I will handle a casnoe solo. Have soloed in a tandem many times but not on a trip or in big water. I figured to just go easy along the shore on the N side then cut South to Pine Portage Bay area where I usually camp. Having read this thread I still don't know whether to rent a tandem or solo but am leaning toward a solo. At 59 and in decent shape (but far from the condition of you in Jimbo's thread) I have been going to Quetico every year fgor the last 15 years and  just can't seem to get around the thought of no trip this year. Solo in a group and solo with no group are two entirely different trips. Having said all this how have you folks handled similar situations?

Having paddled solo in a tandem you'll do just fine in a solo boat.  It will be a treat!  Just be aware of your trim.  When I bow-backwards a tandem my gear is stuffed at the opposite end.  When I paddle a solo most of my gear is behind me.  Trying to turn with the bow skegged from too much weight is an adventure.

One thing to be aware of is how much tumblehome the canoe you get has.  Twice I've been dumped by fighting the tumblehome.  Weight down, slide into it, let it cradle you.  Head between the gunwales.  

My personal fav is the Wenonah Argosy.  I'll take that in wind and wave I wouldn't solo my prospector in.

I am amazed at the knowledge concerning canoes in this forum. It's like a lot of these guys have been to "canoe college". I can't hold a candle to them when it comes to length x width etc.etc.etc.  

What I do have is some experience with solo boats. I'm amazed at the rough water she can handle and how well one can paddle in wind. Nicely done indeed. With the weight amidship the tendency is to bob about like a cork. It's actually rather fun. Now I don't want to mislead you, I'm not going to be out trolling for lakers when it's snotty but rather easing along the bank. Polarized glasses are a big help to spot rocks.

How flexible are you? Perhaps since things aren't going off as planned something new may be in order for you. :question If you go solo my advice is to stay busy. My first solo trip was 13 days and I was going morning to night and never got lonely a bit.

I suspect that a true solo boat is likely more seaworthy than soloing a tandem. This is merely a hunch and people who really know what they are talking about will likely weigh in.
Good luck (Go for it!!)  

Scooteri

HI

Go for the solo boat route, IMHO.

First you'll get to iron out being ditched on future trips ;)

2nd if you are proficient at paddling stern in a tandem using J and C stroke the solo gig is not that much different. Only that a small amount of correction in every stroke works a bit better, as it is more efficient. Think a stitch in time saves nine. :-? Switchin' and rudering works too, just not as fast IMHO

So on and so forth. Enough numbers already!

Be mindful of your trim as it with make your paddling somewhat easier. Bow down trim with head wind or quartering headwind and vice versa with a tail breeze. That brings us to the next piece... in trim, not tail, trim....One big pack is problematic in a solo, harder to cram (think about the decrease in beam in a solo boat-depending on what you rent) into the hull and very difficult to trim the boat. So two is better than one, opps ;). I run two solos or a mid sized pack and solo depending on duration of trip and what I dont want to leave at home in the gear closet and kitchen! And then additionally a daypack and at least one twart bag...for the necessities I need at my finger tips...tackle, camera, raingear, bugshirt, redcross bag, and the like...those are the "packs" that I use to trim, and get the tail just in the right amount of H2o. That is trim. Nothing to it.

From my meager experience it is not the trim so much, or even the paddling for that matter...that is the hinging pin in solos. For me it is the primary stability...just a fancy pants way of speaking to the balance issue inherit in the hulls of fast solos. They're just a tad more tippy when they aint moving. So the getting in and out part is just a tiny bit, a tiny bit, more uncomfortable.

If it is a sitting boat like a We-no-nah then I suggest that you move to your knees and to get that foot on the keel line before you make your boot wet, and with a hand on each rail... it is a snap...but down move like one. This is just a spot that takes some practice... so you can work out your own system of the ins and outs that is driven by the limits of your own self-that is why some have spoken to flexibility/balance. It is NOT that big of a deal really. Just practice. If your using a double bladed kayak type paddle then using a modified kayak mount or dismount, depending on your perspective, could prove to be useful. Keep the boot on the keel line and your hands on the rails, it is simple.

It still dont parallel rollers, always quarter, but I get sea sick in the car still and I only like to swim when I want too, control issues you know ;D But that is enough surf talk!

So, here is a bit of a story for yah to calm the nerves. ::)

Mid-october last year. A friend and I did a five day. We got snow, and it was reasonably seasonable-frost the water bottles at night, windy and rain/snow. He is 62 and was in a brand spankin' new solo, one of those sittin types and he paddled better than me in my twenty year old Bell and I am a pup in the terms of my audience at large. I will say this though, he questioned my sanity in regard to the conditions  while we surfed the rollers as the snow pelted us; I still dont think I caught everything that he said as his glasses were fogged, literally. I am lucky that he is my friend. ;)

Mind the "bear mice" the first couple of days...there most likely just mice.

Bon Voyage ;)

M

scooteri - Do you know the difference between the feel of a loaded tandem with two paddlers and that same boat totally empty with one paddler?

I borrowed a Prism last year. Empty it felt as stable as my tandem paddled backwards, loaded with gear. Fully loaded? It was so stable I kinda didn't trust it since I've heard the horror stories too. In my experience, most canoes don't tip, paddlers fall out and get grabby when they realize they are past the point of no return. Who accepts responsibility for a mistake when there's a perfectly believable inanimate object to blame?

If I intended to rent, I'd choose a solo over a tandem any day. There's not a doubt in my mind recommending a solo over a tandem backwards if you intend on renting.

Good stuff except...

marlin55388 wrote on Apr 28^th, 2010 at 12:57am:

a hand on each rail

Hands off the rails.  A paddle across the rails and hands on the paddle near center.  Distributes your weight evenly.  Otherwise you may find yourself instinctively leaning on one rail more than the other and over you go!  Both times that I've dumped in a solo it has been entering with hands on the rails.  One buddy even yelped, "No!" when he saw me reaching for the gunwale.  He has a bunch of ORCKA certs up to Sea Kayak III.

Head between the gunwales.  Where the head goes, the body is sure to follow.

"Bear mice," heh.  The first time I slept without a tent I was certain there was something large nearby.  Then I realised it was little mouse very close.

I might as well post what I sent to scooteri as an IM response:

scooteri,

I used to add a third "drop-in" style seat to a tandem & try paddling from the center.  That didn't work so well; it's simply too wide to permit effective stroking.  I did the same thing with a seat/yoke that was "reversible".  Even though it sat me higher, permitting an easier reach, I found I could not grab water well with the paddle.  Also, stroking from the center is simply not as effective as from either end due to the shape of the canoe.

I've also tried paddling from the reverse position in the bow.  db uses this approach, if I recall correctly from when he joined my party on Beaverhouse a few years back.  It worked well for him and I guess it was ok for me when I threw a pack in the opposite end of the canoe for counter-weighting.  Frankly, my favorite approach paddling solo in a tandem is to sit in the stern facing the way I'm supposed to face and simply load up the front end of the canoe accordingly.  I've done this in my Souris River 17 footer many times and get by fairly well except when I can't avoid strong sideways winds.

Yet another approach I've used with a tandem involves a "rowing rig".  I bought one from Spring Creek Outfitters years ago.  The big downside of this is you spend your time facing backwards the whole way.  An upside is that the craft is stable as hell IF you lock your pontoons on correctly.  I could also pretty easily keep up with most tandems using my 9 foot oars.  Of course, another BIG downside was that I had to disassemble the rowing rig to get through most portages.  Come to think of it, that's probably why I targeted Cirrus Lake when I travelled with that rig; very FEW portages and those were almost "highways".

Now, you ask my preference?  Well, I guess there WAS a reason why I finally purchased my Wenonah Prism.    

I guess I simply wasn't convinced these other methods of soloing were as effective as they could be.  I took the plunge & bought the Prism.

The Prism took some getting used to.  Initial stability is unlike the tandems I've been in.  Until you get the vessel moving, it tips fairly easily.  Also - and this is a MUST - you have to learn how to load the Prism correctly given  wind condition.  Going "bow-heavy" in a tailwind nearly sunk me on lake one, day one last year when we first launched into Woodland Caribou Park.  That was carelessness; I knew better but let myself get hurried.  On the other hand, loaded correctly, I have found the Prism to be exceptionally good-handling in the wind, particularly in a headwind.  It's also offers decent stability for fishing though not nearly what you might be used to in a tandem.

I'd recommend practicing in a solo canoe such as a Prism before committing to paddling one for an entire trip.  They do take some getting used to.  After a few times out in one, you'll get comfortable.  I've used mine over the past three years or so & have been very pleased.  I mainly paddle with a bentshaft single blade but I also carry a 9 foot double-blade for when I want to cover water fast.  When conditions get surly, however, it's my trusty bentshaft that I grab.

Due to center-seat placement, the portage yoke arrangements in some tandems can be tricky.  I did not like the removeable thwart bar portage yoke that was initially offered with my Prism.  It tended to slide around on me while carrying.  Instead, I purchased an expensive aluminum portage yoke that locks onto the bars of my slider seat.  This solved the problem & worked just fine.

I'll be in the stern seat of a tandem for my trip to Woodland Caribou this July.  The numbers worked out that way.

That's all I know to tell you about my experience.  Again, with a little practice time in advance, I'd opt for a solo canoe such as a Prism every time.

Good luck with your decision!

Jimbo    8-)

Jimbo wrote on Apr 28^th, 2010 at 11:35pm:

I might as well post what I sent to scooteri as an IM response: I'd recommend practicing in a solo canoe such as a Prism before committing to paddling one for an entire trip.  They do take some getting used to.  After a few times out in one, you'll get comfortable.  I've used mine over the past three years or so & have been very pleased... ...That's all I know to tell you about my experience.  Again, with a little practice time in advance, I'd opt for a solo canoe such as a Prism every time. Good luck with your decision! Jimbo    8-)

I just took my Encounter (a little bigger and deeper boat than the Prizm) for a maiden voyage with my 80# dog who I plan on taking at least to the BW. I'm not sure there is even room for her to lay down. But I want to repeat Jimbo... If you plan on a solo, paddle it before hand I can see it will take getting used to. I paddled across our lake from my place to my dad's... On the way back I was already feeling more comfortable with it. I can't believe the speed... I'm lucky I didn't get a ticket!

The other observation was I remember reading guys stressing tying down thier canoe at night. I can't believe how much the wind can take my 38# Encounter vs my 56# Old Town.

OH yes, tucking in the boat. Tie her in for the night, when yah get into camp very sound advice indeed. The new ultra light boats make fine kites indeed. [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Scooteri- here is something to ponder a bit.

I wasn't really sure where I should put this maybe it is the wrong thread, I but I elected to do so because of the discussion surrounding stroke and solos. If these offends any my humble apologies.

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So the ladies aren't left out, she is going to help show us what it is about.

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marlin55388 wrote on Apr 30^th, 2010 at 7:41am:

OH yes, tucking in the boat. Tie her in for the night, when yah get into camp very sound advice indeed. The new ultra light boats make fine kites indeed. [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Fifteen years ago I was camped one summer night on the immense Santee Cooper Reservoir down in South Carolina.  I didn't tie down my Crow Boat (very similar but heavier than most canoes; has a squared-off back end for trolling motors).  A big wind blew up in the night.  As heavy as that danged thing was with all my fishing gear still in it, the vessel was upright & the wind shuffled it a dozen feet or so right into the water. Then it sent her sailing - minus a crew - eighteen miles across the lake!  A good samaritan commercial fisherman heard my pitiful APB that I put out on CB radio, saw her bouncing off the rocks near the dam, & hauled her all the way back to me.  Oh, by the way, all my fishing tackle, fishing poles, landing nets, etc., were still in her.

Just after the first-ever Bushwhacker's Jamboree five years ago, my oldest son & I were camped on Wetasi Island in southern Pickerel Lake.  We were just stopping for lunch but I guess I hadn't learned my Santee Cooper lesson very well some ten years earlier.  I had the bowline laced through some bushes.  Of course the afternoon wind kicked up - as it is sometimes known to do on Pickerel Lake - and, well, you can guess the rest.  My SR17 was probably 30 yards off shore and about to catch bigger wind on more open water when we looked up from our peanut butter & jelly and noticed what was happening.  We didn't say a word.  Ben simply looked at my portage boots laced all the way up; I looked down at his bare feet (bad island to walk around in bare feet; LOTS of ants).  In another minute that vessel would be headed full steam toward French Lake.  Ben took the cold water plunge, caught up to the Souris River 17 &, thankfully, retrieved her.

Since then, for lunch stops, I tie very securely.  For overnight camps, I flip it over & tie it down bow & stern, generally under the bushes to avoid wind.

If there is anything stupid that can be done in or to a canoe, I've probably done it at one time or another.  Experience is a great teacher.  It's just that some of us require more remedial attention than others.

Jimbo   8-)

Jimbo wrote on May 3^rd, 2010 at 9:28pm:

marlin55388 wrote on Apr 30th, 2010 at 7:41am: OH yes, tucking in the boat. Tie her in for the night, when yah get into camp very sound advice indeed. The new ultra light boats make fine kites indeed. [smiley=thumbup.gif] If there is anything stupid that can be done in or to a canoe, I've probably done it at one time or another.  Experience is a great teacher.  It's just that some of us require more remedial attention than others. Jimbo   8-)

The only problem with experience being a "good teacher" is that you have to take the test before reading the book.

I've never lost a canoe like you describe, but have had friends in similar situations.

It always the last thing to remember before going to bed and if it's a calm evening you don't thing twice about it until you hear the wind and waves crashing in that wakes you from your beauty sleep.  Yah, I've gotten up in wind and rain to double check how secure the canoes are in the middle to the night.

starwatcher

I'm humbled by the amount of knowledge that folks have shared.  I now know just how much I DON'T know about canoeing!   :)

I'll be sure to report on our decision and how it turns out.  Thanks to everyone for all the insight.