I have a bit of a dilemma. I have invited my dearest friend (like since we've been 5yrs. old) and his 14 year old kid to the "Q". Both are newbies (my buddy showing great promise as a potential hardcore however having done a tough Algonquin trip with zero complaint).

My problem is this. Since we are base camping I can already picture myself getting up before daylight and basically just being gone fishing.........like all the time.........alone.
I have a sneaking suspicion that makes me a Schmuck (or worse). I have already sealed the deal by informing them that scenario is likely........better they come to grips before we get out there, no surprises.

I'm leaning toward some 2 way radios so maybe we can meet up for lunch. I'm also giving strong consideration to taking the kid fishing (swapping canoes) a few times. Add some day trips every other day so we can do some portages and travel together and I might be able to pull it off where everyone comes home happy.

"Am I a Shmuck" could be an interesting poll question. If any of the mods want to set that up I can laugh at myself. But more importantly if anyone has any suggestions that could be helpful I am all ears.

If at all possible in the future you will want to arrange trips with other fishermen. An alternative would be with a good cook who stays back at camp preparing food the whole time you are gone. Nothin beats fishin with a buddy though.
This trip better take the middle road and back off the fishin a little. Make it a good trip for them. In the grand scheme you will be happier.

Both are chompin at the bit to fish. In fact Santa was very good to them. They are locked and loaded. I love fishin with a buddy, as long as that buddy is QUIET. I don't know many 14 year olds who are quiet. I always have Mr. Big on my mind so dropped pliers are a cause for gastrointestinal distress.  

That said, you are right. I need to make sure they have a good time (And they will!).  Thanks, I needed to hear that from the right person.

I kinda like the "stay back at camp and cook scenario".........But the "I catch'em, you clean'em" sorta gal might be hard to come by in this day and age.  :D

Mastergaffer

Put a kneeling pad under the teen for the dropsy. Tell him that if he wants to see a moose that he has to be quieter than when he is sneaking around not just when he remembers or it is convenient, otters wake up very early, and cook together. He has to learn sometime better now than latter...and it never hurts to have a younger stronger well trained portage monkey for the future for when the knees seize up finally-and that is about experience.

What is a schmuck anywayz?  :-?IMO there is nothing wrong with goals and desires especially when there is a carrot to salivate about...and especially when the group likes carrots  ;)

I know that if that "model" was still being made Coach would be peddling fillet knives, boots, and 380 holsters, can yah imagine that :o...maybe I am grabbing at the wrong bag maker here I dont know. What is a schmuck anyway? :-?

Newbies not, just folks that are lucky enough to have their world opened larger.

Have a great time/bon voyage

M

When the Missus found out I had no intention of "hanging out with the guys" for extended periods and felt an overwhelming desire for some solitude and some quality time with my finny friends she put a mirror up and asked what I saw. "A schmuck"! (Schmuck; common mafia/wise guy reference to an undesirable who lacks honor).

Marlin, what do you coach? Seems like I'm at some game or another 3 days a week.

If you pick a campsite with deep enough water off shore, the child can fish right from camp.  You may come back from a distant paddle to find out HE caught all the fish, right there.  
Does anyone fish with a hook and bobber anymore?  It is a great way to fish, very relaxing and you can let your guard down a bit between casts.  Set the youngster to finding some live bait around camp: worms under damp rocks and logs, crayfish in the crevices along the shoreline, frogs, minnows, put a bit of meat in a piece of cloth or on a line and wait for the leeches and/or crayfish to come to the bait or leave a light on and gather up the bugs as they home in on it.  If there are plenty of fish, I've even had success with bits of old salami as bait.
If the son has an independent streak, then he may soon be leaving you guys in camp and he will be the wandering one.  Teach him how to use the compass and a bit about dead-reconing so he will have the tools to find his way back to you.  If he does have the nerve to get out of sight of camp he will return proud of his new "independence".  (Note: The last 14 yr old I camped with was very careful to never let us out of his sight!!)  :D

IC has it right.
The best thing the 14 year old can get out of this trip, is a sense of independence and RESPONSIBILITY ;)

He's closer to being a man than a child, I'd give him plenty of "man" chores to keep him busy without being a Schmuck about it ;)

Explaining the "whys and whens" , before they happen will give him a chance to take responsibility for his actions and let him feel like he's a valuable part of the trip.  Personal responsibility is sadly lacking in today's youth. Money can't buy that, but the chance to share the load in a wilderness setting can.

Any lunkers you catch will just be icing on the cake, if you return with two  former "newbies" who have had the trip of a lifetime.

I voted "Yes" even before reading the OP.  Hang a question like that out there and the answer is likely yes and you likely know it.

Having said that, are you a baby-sitter or a facilitator?  I think you're a facilitator.  Buddy has a trip under his belt.  He's there with his kid, presumably to introduce the kid to tripping.  He likely wants to have some father/son moments, if you're hanging around they can't do that.

I see your role as being there to keep them safe and to educate them in tripping & camp craft.  Beyond that, once camp is set-up, your job is done and your time is yours.  Heck, you shouldn't be doing anything other than directing and a little demonstrating.  Let them tie up the canoes, pitch the tents, hang the food line, hang the laundry line, gather the firewood, make dinner.  They *need* this experience & tutelage.  You're not helping them if you do the work.  They definitely need portage experience!

2-way radios are a good idea.  Check in every couple hours.

Heck, put the kid in the solo for a half-day and bugger off with your buddy.  14 is old enough to learn to paddle solo, I've been doing it since I was 7.

Schmuck is a Yiddish term for a dick or dickwad or assh***.

I_C,
Your shoreline fishing is a good one. Is there anything more socially enjoyable than hanging out on the bank with a big crawler on the bottom or a fat chub swimming around?

S_T
While I'm a big "personal responsibility" guy and can be a tough disciplinarian with my own kid I'm leaning the other way on this. My general motto on trips is "let everyone do what they want". A 14 year old is constantly under unrelenting authority.( that is if the parents are any count) My plan is to treat him as an equal this first trip and ask him if he wants to help out. If he doesn't I'll act as if I could care less. He's a good kid and sooner or later he'll come around if he doesn't feel like he's under the thumb. Canoe trips are supposed to be fun, right?

Preacher
You have probably most mirrored my own thoughts. With boat, packs, tents and guide service provided I feel entitled to be AWOL for some time. It was probably good to inform them that they need to be self sufficient. KF has it right though, I need to seek some balance. If I'm not careful I can fish 12 to 14 hours non-stop for days at a time. (always something new to try :P ) I would be doing both them and probably myself a disservice. Besides, Tim's a great guy....the definition of easy going.

I agree with ST about giving the young man plenty to do.  If you and his dad can avoid micro-managing his efforts he will have a good time.  Not giving him stuff to do may lead to his being bored.  Tell his Dad to let him bring the Game Boy along...
I also agree that leaving Dad and Son to themselves a good share of the time will enable them to enjoy each other's company.  My husband and son always got along much better when I wasn't around complicating things.
I have found that youngsters have as good a time or even more fun than the adults on wilderness trips.  It may take a day or two for the young man to get over not turning on the computer or TV when he wants something to do; but once he does he should be a happy camper.

Oh yeah, let him bring the gameboy.  I bring mine!  One of my fondest camping memories was at the end of a long day.  Camp set.  Fishing from shore.  Enjoying a smoke.  Playing a turn-based gameboy game with my buddies.

This is a trip for him to enjoy and for him to get hooked on.  Let them pack the kitchen sink if they want.  Best way to learn what not to bring is to carry it over a few portages.  Chores yes, schedule no.  Chores must be done before bedtime.  Otherwise, being on your own schedule is what it's all about.  Best way to learn that shelter goes up first is to have your gear rained on.    :D

Alternate is to claim the bottle doesn't open until the work is done.  14 is old enough to have a drink with the old man, isn't it?

I have already made it known that electronic devices are permitted........as long as I don't hear it. No mute, no go. One of the only things I have to put my foot down about.

Smoking, drinking and Game Boys. A very, shall we say, unique type of "Preacher".

I forgot to thank OS for posting the poll. My wife heard me laughing this morning and then she in turn got a kick out of it.  ;D

Hopefully I am missing some important dialogue between you and your buddy, but my initial reaction leans to "yes". (I say "leans to", because I had understood that "schmuck" literally and figuratively translates as "prick" - a bit strong for what we're talking about here.)

My take on the situation is as follows: You invited them, so that means you agreed to take on all the obligations of a host. In other words, you agreed to do everything in your power to make their trip as enjoyable as possible, with no consideration of your own personal enjoyment.

That's hardly as bad as it sounds. If you and your buddy go that far back, you've probably both got so many plusses and minuses on the ledger that one lost weekend for one of you isn't going to make much difference at this point anyway. And unless your buddy is a jerk, he will recognize that you need a bit of time alone, and will ensure that you get it. (Like how many 14-year olds get up before dawn for any reason? You get a few hours right there.)

If your buddy has been on a tough Algonquin trip, he's hardly a noob. It's been a while since I've been to A, but I don't remember much difference other than the crowds and the fluorescent cardboard tacked to the trees. That said, any opportunity to teach teenagers proper wilderness etiquette should be taken eagerly, not avoided. This is something that comes back to benefit all of us.

Regarding fishing, Q's barbless, no-live-bait rules make catching fish a bit of a challenge. Since you have considerable skills in this area and I gather that your buddy and his son do not, shouldn't you be eager to share what you know? A couple of lessons, a couple of successes, the Game Boy might be quickly forgotten. (If your buddy and his son hooked a decent sized Northern and got it to the boat, would they know what to do without you?)

It really is better to give than to receive.

Prick?   <Insert throaty german sound that I cannot spell here>    Schmuck was always prefaced by the word dumb when it was said TO one, as in a term of endearment ('cause they obviously didn't know any better...).

The kid is 14? At 14 I'll bet you didn't whine or complain, you were Johnny on the spot always trying to prove your worth to the old man. Give him a chance. Show him how by doing 'cause he'll be watching ... improving. If not, you're screwed - make the best of it.

If you didn't know what to expect before offering ... well - what where thinking ya dumb schmuck?  ;D

All good stuff. Thought provoking. The kid's not the issue. Great kid raised by a good family. I like kids and teaching them. I was Mr. Mom to my own, a time period I would never trade. "Say what you mean, and mean what you say" was my motto. I never raised my voice but the paddle came out with some frequency during those early strong willed years. Funny, it doesn't seemed to have hurt her self esteem any and I don't recall any "terrible 2's or tyrannical threes"....but I digress.

As I evaluate this it is whole lots less about being a prick and more about being selfish.
I'm still glad I pushed the button on "Hey, you better be able to manage without me around" or the motivation to do just that may of been lost. That brings a certain seriousness to the table. Besides, if all goes according to plan they have a steep learning curve.........Kawanipi is one the horizon for next year (Lord willing).

Man, I'm getting slammed in the poll!  :P  

I'd " gently" suggest that the young man leave the Game-boy at home ;)

Even if the weather keeps you in camp, they're is always the chance to fish from shore, maybe some cards/cribbage etc, and GOD forbid, maybe even some Father and Son conversation time ;D

Instead of a electronic babysitter, he can use his imagination and find old school ways too have fun. Better yet, how about a book? Get him a copy of Furtman's' BW/Q fishing guide, or any of the books about the BW/Q area. Maybe a book on map reading and navigation? Old school compass reading, not a GPS, until he masters the old way. That will keep him occupied for hours and he'll learn something that will be useful on future trips.

Unless he's planning on using his gaming skills for something that has some useful purpose , like maybe be a Predator Drone pilot, it's just a crutch for avoiding human interaction :(

You can "Tweet" me on that ::)

Back in the 60's when I was 14 years old, we didn't need any chunk of plastic and silicon when we wanted to see flashing lights and swirling colors ...

LOL. I suspect the winning formula will be a couple of fishing / canoeing lessons, then trying to make sure #1 Son gets a chance to bugger off by himself to practice his skills without losing face in front of you old pros. The strongest father-son bonding might take place on a one-hour-on-three hours-off schedule.

Man S_T, even though I think I might want to do a trip with you someday, you sound like a barrel of laughs from a kids perspective. Let me see if I have this right...."plenty of man chores", "no game boy", and some "books to read" (as in homework?). And I suspect that's for starters.

I bet underneath all that gruff your probably a big softie and would patiently explain and teach the lad.  ;)

Quote:

I bet underneath all that gruff your probably a big softie and would patiently explain and teach the lad.

The first rule with of teaching man or beast is too get their attention ;)
I bet any of the teachers here on QJ could tell you the horror stories of trying too compete with electronic devices in a classroom setting, ( other than devices meant for teaching).

I've seen numerous stories relating too the effect of Video games and the like on still developing brains.  The kids get over-stimulated with the constant "action". The develop an addiction too it.  Spend anytime around a young person who's a " Gamer", and you'll soon see they have the attention spans of a 2 year old.

I have too take exception with the mantra, change is for the best :-?
Just because it's new and "in", doesn't mean it's a good thing ;)

This site is full of paddlers who cherish the times they spent with parents/adults in the days before electronic games. I doubt many would say they were bored with the time they spent doing things the "old school way"?

Here's a little anecdote that you may find amusing ;D
The other day at work, one of the twenty somethings I work with, got talking too me about pistol shooting. I said that I had shot Expert with the .45 in the Army, and had hunted deer with a .44 magnum. I don't shoot as much as I used too, but I would say I'm better than average.
 He told me that he was a crack shot and that we should have a little competition! I said let''s pick a day and go to the gun range. He replied that I could just come over too his house. I said " You have a pistol range on your property"?

He shook his head and replied " No, but I have a X-Box and a shooting app  ;D  He was dead serious, in his short attention span mind, that qualified him as a good pistol shot.  God help us all :(

Didn't need flashing lights?  Pretty sure the halucinogens from the 60s provided all sorts of flashing lights.   :D

You don't teach kids by force, you teach kids by encouragment & discouragment.  Free time is important and it's not free if they're not allowed to spend it as they wish.  The guy is 14, not 4.

Yes excessive use of anything will likely be detrimental in the long run.  I'm sure those video game studies don't mention reasonable use.  It's Tipper Gore & Rock'n'Roll.

If he brings the game, maybe he'll choose to do other things instead of play it.  Maybe it will piss rain for 3 days and he won't think camping sucks because he has something to occupy his time.  Maybe he'll play it constantly until the batteries die.  One thing I can guarantee you is that he won't be complaining about some totalitarian regime stuck in 100 year old mentality, which is what will happen if he's restricted from simple & harmless freedoms.

Geeze look at me being true to my handle.

With feet firmly planted in both camps I can see both sides. I grew up liking games. Stratego then Risk, war games in the back yard, and now console gaming. Yes I like to throw a flashbang and clear a room or flank a machine gun nest and save my squad. It can be fun, exciting even. I end up playing about 2 or perhaps 3 a year, it has to be really good though to get my interest.

The problems however, are many and varied. Most are a direct result of a lack of common sense parental supervision. The games can become obsessive-complusive if your not careful. On more than one occasion I have glanced at the clock and was shocked when it read 3 A.M.. If there is no check on some of the more violent games the identification with the game can be overwhelming for some to the point of committing the act in the "real world". (Colombine etc.)

Todays youth are so involved with electronic machines, games, PC's, texting etc. that they fail to develop communication skills. Attention level is nil and it becomes all about constant visual stimuli. Add into that the lack of physical fitness that one derives for hour after hour of sitting and flipping your fingers and all and all it becomes a negative net effect to society. It takes courage to be a good parent. You cannot be afraid of confrontation. For many parents it is just easier to let junior sit for hours on end, nice and quiet, while they go about their busy schedule rather than insist on another activity.

Gaming is here to stay. Proper supervision as to content and time frames could make it a net positive for family's and society as a whole IMO. I have no clue if my canoe crew is bringing any electronics in or not. I would not frown on it if it is quiet and applied sparingly. While I can be tough I am not without flexibility. State your case as best you can, perhaps you can persuade me to change my mind has been my parenting motto. Throw a fit and you get a spanking, cry or pout and you get nothing......... I think I may be raising the next Attorney General  ;D .

   

After scanning the first page of comments I'm more in agreement with KF's comment. Develop a group agenda, maybe with "some" solo fishing time for yourself. But try and make it a trip that all enjoy as a group. Maybe giving up more of your own time to share some one-on-one teachable moments.

After your trip access whether you want to travel with them again. You can tell them what you would have really liked to do and let them understand what it would have taken to get it done. But don't wait too long for the memories to fade about the reality of it, for both yourself & them.

I know that's easier to do if you've got your own solo trip coming up and this isn't your only trip for the year. But I've had to scale back plans several times and was always happy I did. That said some guys don't get to come back. They were just too dependent and took too much supervision, and they agreed. But were happy for the experience.

As long as the 14 yr. old wants to be there, treat him with respect and give him lots of stuff to do.  Tell him it's a job you usually reserve for an adult, but that you think he's mature enough, strong enough, etc. and up to the task.  Give him a lift and let him soar.  Also, ask him what he wants to do, and within reason, let him do it.  Make games out of stuff.  Let's see how fast can we get this portage done.  Guess how long until the sun sets.  Think we can beat that other canoe to the island.  That kind of stuff.  Make sure he brings a book, or get him a book that has some significance to the area.

I find fascinating all the good insight offered above on the dynamic between fathers and sons.  

My take: I've found that most fathers give their sons LESS freedom, responsibility and respect (and opportunity to succeed or fail on their own) than another man would, and often just weigh their sons down with commands, instruction and rules.

Why? Worried about safety ... a subconscious worry that the boy will do something wrong or in a fumbling manner and embarrass himself and the Dad ... lack of patience ... the need to always be the Dad Boss ... the "gotta do it myself and teach him the right way" syndrome ... the don't bother me while i'm enjoying myself excuse ... etc. etc.

I like the "treat the 14-year-old as an equal" comments. Give him respect and responsibility. Assume he's going to man up when it comes to the chores. I have no idea of his skill level, but I'd give him stuff one level above what he can handle, and help or guide as needed. Instruction should be casual, a la "I know you already know this but ...."

And I'd get the boy away from his Dad a few times. My nephews always act more mature around their uncles than they do their families.

-- kypaddler

I took a May bw trip with two fourteen year olds in -- me, my daughter, my friend and her daughter.  My daughter and I also did a trip last August. No game boys or game girls or anything like that. ICK. Books-- yes. As to solitude equalling shmuckyness: I dont think so.  The wilderness allows us to each find our own peace, pace, enjoyment, contemplation time-- and a fourteen year old is old enough to master his/her own plan.

On my May trip, I was the loner who wanted to explore. The girls swam, read, and talked. The other mother read and sat in thought. We came together for meals. Every one returned rejuvenated and feeling good about each other, the experience, and our time to march to our own drummers. (Paddle to our own inner ripples????)

Have a wonderful trip.

I was digging around looking at some posts that I had missed during the summer and bumbled and stumbled on this one. I couldn't help but chuckle at the results of the poll. Heck I probably would of voted yes too as I was certainly feeling like one. Looking back the results are mixed in ways I wouldn't have envisioned.

Saturday and Sunday in late June found me doing a show in Kansas City in 100 degree heat. Tough set-up and tough break down and no dough. Monday I drove back to Michigan, Tuesday I loaded my/our gear and we hit the road. 20 hours later we are at the "Q" yours truly doing all the driving. Safe to say I was a little waxed but I usually can always summon some reserve.........

I had devoted many emails to my pal and his kid instructing them on areas I knew they were deficient in. I know he can bust 50 or probably 100 clay pigeons straight at some sporting clays club but has a tough time tying a knot for fishing. As it was I still ended up tying some knots, doing the majority of the fish cleaning and fish cooking and rigging the fly over their tent when it leaked. But they learned boat loads and they had a blast............ as did I. :) [smiley=thumbup.gif]

The 14 year old had a super time and was 0 problem and rather was an asset to our troop.

They want to do the same trip again but I belong to the "been there done that" school of thought. Looking back a little tough love was on target. I am a firm believer in honesty even if it steps on some toes. I personally think that problems amongst trippers could be avoided if expectations were placed on the table and discussed. The question, "How do you envision the trip unfolding" should be common practice amongst those that decide to travel together IMO.

mastertangler wrote on Dec 25^th, 2010 at 2:40pm:

......question, "How do you envision the trip unfolding" should be common practice amongst those that decide to travel together IMO.

I like playing that game. Trouble is trips very rarely happen the way they are expected. If I ever start predicting how trips will unfold with any accuracy that will take most of the fun out of it. What is fun is to have the totally unexpected happen and be prepared for it or excell at coping with it. That's fun.

Tis True. When trips start becoming overly predictable it's time to take up golf.

Me thinks I have been very blessed in the unexpected.

Hey, golf is predictable too...On the 16th tee, I dread swinging :-/   Sure enough, I hit it into the crap just about every time!   >:(

Bowling is much more predictable...at least 2 gutter balls every game!    :D