Carrying this over from another board.  I'm curious just how pervasive this practice is.

The Scenario:

• You're out there and it's a beautiful day.  
  
• There are people on your desired campsite, but they're going to be leaving shortly.  
  
• Maybe you just want to start fishing right away instead of setting up camp.
  

I have taken my pack and put it on the campsite, visible from the water.  I have also been the party leaving and had a group leave a pack so that others know the site is taken once I vacate.

Is this a common practice?

I've never seen it done in the Q, but I could see how in BW it would be more commonplace.

I'm a cynic by heart, and while I'd like too think my fellow paddler would respect this practice, but I have no doubt that some people would set-up camp and claim " that" trumps a pack on site. I've seen it happen in car camping parks where people leave coolers/etc and find the site taken anyway :(

I think at the very least, I'd hang my tarp and then leave pack under it.

I've only done it for a very brief period, while selecting from 2-3 available campsites in the area. We often have radios, and very quickly remove the packs from the site(s) not chosen.

I've only done this at vacant sites. I would never intrude on a party at a campsite, and ask to leave a pack. Guess I'm not that concerned that I might lose the site, if I want it. If it is obvious they are leaving, then I just wait until they leave.

I've never done it and gone fishin'. If I plan to stay, I will set camp first, then go fishin'.

I have seen this done with tents set up, but am not sure just a pack sitting there would be enough to convince another party to move on.  I've respected that a tent (empty) was set up and have moved on, in spite of not seeing anyone who appeared to belong to the tent.
I've asked if a party (who looked like they were leaving) was actually leaving and if I could hang around just off campsite until they were gone and take the site over.
Once a lady friend and I hit a campsite late in the afternoon on one side of a point while a group of men got on the same site from the other side of the point.  We met at the top in the middle, we tried to claim the site but they wouldn't relenquish it without an argument and I wasn't anxious enough to get beligerent so we ladies moved on... >:(

IC
I always trip with a life sized 2-d model of Arnold Shwartznegar in his "Terminator" get up. If you could of stood that up behind you things might of turned out differently. Works wonders at night in front of your tent as well. Repels any and all intruders. You just have to remember he's out there when nature calls in the middle of the night or you may have a wardrobe malfunction.  

I've never done it. I have heard of it though.

Do I think it is right? I guess like all things in life it depends. I think if it is done for a very short time period I see no problem. I can even see why someone would do that in a busy area. If you just throw out a pack and then go all over the lake, checking every site or fishing for several hours I am not so keen on it.

I've heard stories of people not occupying a site because soemone put a pack at it only to see the group come back several hours later and pick up the pack becuase they found another site they liked better (my friend talked to the group claiming the pack). To me that is selfish and rude to block a site for a period of time and then not use it.

The tent thing would bug me too. Once again settign up a tent to make sure you get a site later is quite selfish. You are denying other people that site on days you are not even using it.

I guess I am lucky that I have never personally run into people like this out in canoe country, but I tend to avoid busy areas where this probably takes place more often.

T

I know what I would do if I paddled up to an unoccupied site with one pack sitting on the shore and no one in sight.

I've definitely heard of it, and not in a good way.  A guide friend of mine arrived at a BW campsite, saw it unoccupied and went about setting up camp.  An hour later, they found a rolled up tarp at an alternate landing area further away from the fire grate.  Figuring someone left it, they just put it with their gear and go on setting up tents, tarps, bear ropes, etc.  Two hours later a large crew comes ashore, and is quite angry as they believed they "reserved" the campsite by leaving gear there.  Threats were made, so my friend radioed Base and explained the situation.  After a brief rule check, and a call to the Forest Service, it was quite clear that there is no reserving campsites in the Boundary Waters.   Set up camp before you go fishing, exploring, swimming away from camp.  You're better prepared and the site definitely looks occupied with a tent or tarp up.

I've paddled up to crews who looked like they were just eating lunch and asked if they were camping there for the night, and I wouldn't have a problem with others asking me the same.

Yep, that's lame, IMO. Either set up camp or don't; all things are first come, first served - campsites and fishing holes.

If it were a bunch of lawn chairs cabled to a parking meter a day before the big parade - fine. I'll honor your request.

One lonely pack, packed-up and ready to go on the shoreline in the BW/Q? When you see me landing at the site you intended to claim w/ a pack like that, you better be there before I've assessed the site's suitability and finished unloading.

I've never considered leaving a pack as an option so my assessment would be someone forgot it. You may even need to describe everything inside perfectly once I've had time to invoke the full finder's keeper's rules of ownership. Asking nicely might get you your pack and anything in it I liked, back. I'm only half kidding.

All of your camp stuff ... set up? Totally different story although I'd wonder a bit if I noticed the site went unused/unchanged for more than a night or two depending on location and weather conditions.

There wasn't a poll radio option so I couldn't vote for ~Wouldn't do it nor honor it. As defined in reguard to reserving a site that way, Finder's/Keeper's would get my vote.

Well the poll is set up to determine how many people are familiar with the practice, not if you do it.  That's a different survey, like asking if you've heard of double-parking vs. do you double-park.

I think the best way to ensure you keep the site is to set up some kind of shelter.  A tent or tarp for those of us who don't use tents.  If you're waiting for folks to vacate, then wait nearby.

What does surprise me is the number of people who would assume the pack was forgotten.  Really?  How many times have you forgotten a whole pack?  Not like a little day-pack with lunch in it, but a whole pack with all your gear.

Thanks!  It's communities like these that teach me more than I'd ever learn out there alone.

I've never actually done it, I mean leave my pack to indicate that I intend to use a site.  But I would certainly honor such an act.  Typically when I'm paddling towards a site, if I see color - bright blue, red or green -  I just assume there is someone there and move on.  It would never occur to me that someone simply forgot their loaded pack and paddled away anymore than I would assume that they had forgotten to take their tarp or tent down when they left.

I'd actually never heard of until it was mentioned on another QJ forum. And frankly, it's not something that would have ever ocurred to me.

There have been times when our group has stopped earlier than we maybe planned, because of what we thought would be limited campsites ahead. It's a choice you make. Either stop, or move on and take your chances. I would never think that tossing a pack down and keep looking for another site was even an option.

If you're travelling in a group of six and have twelve packs with you, you could leave quite a string of packs on various sites until you find the "perfect" one. That's just not right.

I personally can't imagine just dropping a pack to "hold" a spot. We have split up however to search for sites and kept in contact via radio.

Once on North Bay even with my rainfly up I had a group of 3 canoes parked outside my site for a full 5 minutes mumbling amongst themselves. I'm not exactly sure what was discussed but it sure seemed like a war council. I know it was a prime site and I was (at the time) alone. Obviously they didn't see my black canoe or my green rainfly until they were almost on top of me. The stares I was getting made me feel a bit awkward but since I had already set the fly up I wasn't going anywhere.

mastertangler wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 8:07pm:

Once on North Bay even with my rain fly up I had a group of 3 canoes parked outside my site for a full 5 minutes mumbling amongst themselves.

Reminds me of one of my trips this summer.  We were fishing about 1/2 mile out front of our site and 2 canoes beached up on our site, got out and walked around.  I was watching them through the binoc's and suggested to my bow mate that we might want to paddle back towards camp a bit.  As we headed back they got in their canoes and paddled towards us.  We stopped and let them come to us and they asked us if that was out stuff and "how long" we planned to be at that site.  We told them "2 days or maybe 5, who knows."  One guy says "$#!t!  Now what are we gonna do?"  I gave him a look like  :-? and they paddled on.  Our tent was up, tarp was out, food in the tree and a full clothes line all in plain view.  There was plenty of daylight and other open sites within a mile radius.

Who does that?  Some peoples kids, I tell ya.

Preacher wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 5:03pm:

Well the poll is set up to determine how many people are familiar with the practice, not if you do it.

Well, the way I read the poll, it seems to me to favor an outcome.  I guess I could have checked the first option since I've seen people do that (claim a spot with lawn chairs for parades) so the experience is somewhat transferable plus I've  heard of a particular BW outfitter that sends some lackey out to claim a specific site days before the annual well funded wine and cheese culinary type excursion. Those are extreme examples therefore I could not in good conscious check the first because I'd never 'double park' myself. Stretch limos double park because it's the best they can do sometimes so I have seen that done too although that's not really transferrable either.

As a solo normally, I see the practice inviting a world of hurt depending on who's willing to open their can of whoop-ass and when. Besides, a whole lot of inexperienced people use QJ and I simply don't see this as an acceptable practice to be suggested much less promoted. If you want a site, take it or take your chances on the next. Isn't that what the tripper types do all day long every day? Personally I check out most available campsites looking for one that suites. Last trip I went to a site I considered best. I wasn't set up long before it got dumped on for like 15 minutes. After the storm I was journaling and I mentioned I did not have the lake to myself anymore as I heard the unmistakable paddle meets canoe sound. A half hour later, I see a tandem heading for my site. The tent was in plain view, so I wondered off. When I wondered back they were still heading straight for MY site. I was more than happy to point them a great site with (probably) wet welcome wood 5 minutes away. Again, as a solo, I'm always happy to help the less nimble.

On forgetting stuff:
I remember one time I chased down a group of guys who left a huge, and I mean freaken huge tackle box on the crest of the big sloping rock on which they probably stood when loading their canoe. I can't imagine how the stern paddler could have missed it not to mention it was huge (did I mention it was huge?) enough to make extra space in the canoe obvious. I think it was theirs... I doubt they were claiming dibs on the portage. Stuff happens. Hey, I once pushed off, sat down and even lit a smoke before reaching for a paddle that was not there. It was on shore right next to my spare. DOH!

Sounds kinda orange cone to me, and I dont know how I would pack that...I suppose I could wear it. Hey maybe that would "help" with the walk throughs I have gotten in a set up camp. Gotten looks and the off shore war meetings too, course that could have been due that it was just me and the boy chawin' on a stick of grass. First come first serve; been on both sides of the mid afternoon line in the sand. So for me those early stops at those killer sites turns into a feast night and I cook and hit the rack early in post gluttony delight only to rise for an early start the next day; oh that sounds good! I have also lent my humble direction to wayward folks at dusk, and if needed I would share if it was truly a pinch; cuz its just plain neighborly to do.

I would and have shared a campsite if someone else needed a spot.  In June 2002, my brother and I were camped on an island in Beaverhouse and waiting for my teenage son and his two friends to take their ACT test and join us in two days.  After our group became five, we were ready to leave the next day and head east into the park.  Because there was a very strong wind from the east, we decided to wait until tomorrow to leave.  About mid day two "older men" probably about 60 pulled up to our campsite asking where the Ranger Station was on Beaverhouse.  They had put in at the parking lot for Beaverhouse.  I assumed they were rookies and in fact they were rookies because nobody should get very confused from the parking lot to the ranger station.  I told them where they were on the map and pointed out where the ranger station was.  I also suggested that we were staying put because we thought it was too windy to go any where.  They had rented canoes that were probably 15 foot and they were over loaded.  I pointed out to them that as soon as they left the leeward side of the island they would be taking the wind broadside and there were some good size white caps out on the lake.  Sure enough they didn't get 50 yards before they capsized.  My son and I got to watch the whole thing.  After they capsized, they were were trying to pull the canoe to shore and making no progress.  I ran to the shore and told them to forgot the canoe and get themselves out of the water.  They were wearing pfds and with some effort they managed to get to shore.  Meanwhile, the other four guys got into our canoes with pfds, of course, to go to the rescue.  My son and his friend tied a rope onto the capsized canoe and eventually got the canoe to shore.  My brother and his partner chased down a plastic bag of gear which was being blown across the lake.  In a fairly short time, we had them, their canoe and bag back on shore.  We allowed them to use our tent and our dry clothes.  The campsite we had was not very good and was picked primarily for the purpose of meeting the three boys after they completed their ACTs and could join us.  There was only an adequate campsite and a will do campsite.  They spent the night with us on the island, but had to make due with a lousy campsite.  We share dinner and breakfast with them.    The next morning they decided they had enough and decided not to go into Badwater Lake.  I had explained that the Badwater portage from Quetico Lake would be quite challenging.

We refer to the two men as the old men from Milwaukee.  I still remember one of the men telling me that when they were in the water and trying to pull the canoe to shore, that he heard me yell, forgot the #@!! canoe and get yourself to shore.  Before they left our island, I had volunteered that they could stay with us as crossing the lake could be dangerous.

Westwood

Very commendable of you and your party.
To bad they didn't listen to the voice of experience.
Could of been a lot worse than a dunking.
At least they had there PFD'S on.
Anytime I'm doing a activity that's new, I've learned to take advice from other's who have learned before me.
I don't need first hand experience of the life threatening kind to learn a lesson ;)

An unattended pack on a campsite could just as easily be interpreted as "they exited in a hurry and forgot this pack."  A set-up camp (although unoccupied) is "claimed."

Funny this came up while I was out on a trip.  One of our campsites was on the southern end of an island on Brent (Quetico).  We spent a few minutes talking to another group that was occupying the campsite on the northern end of the same island.  I kind of felt the urge to move on to claim the southern site, so I cut our conversation a little short.  We hadn't been on the southern site for more than 10 minutes when a tandem group (husband/wife) showed up looking for a campsite and a friend out doing a 51 day solo.  They wound up using a less desirable site just across from the northern campsite and then took the northern site the next morning when the other group departed.  

We also had a tandem group beat us to Ted Lake by a few minutes ... we took a longer route from Gardner Bay than they did and they were already on the "5 star" site when we arrived.  However, they were a couple of nice guys and permitted me access to their site the next day to read a few messages in the cache there and put in my own note.

dd

DentonDoc wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 9:21pm:

An unattended pack on a campsite could just as easily be interpreted as "they exited in a hurry and forgot this pack."

I think that's absolutely rediculous and am surprised at the number of people who clearly must forget their own packs frequently enough to think it's a reasonable assumption.  Maybe I'm just that amazing, that I've never forgotten a whole pack on a campsite.   ;D

My buddy left a big foam mat rolled and secured with a piece of rope at the put in at Sawbill (DOH!). It was our first canoe trip and two days later after being badly abused from to much gear and many blisters we passed back through Sawbill. "Aw, come on Al, let's see if it's still there". Sure enough it was.

The next night we got hit by a bear and was robbed of all our food. End of trip.

The next year I figured I made all my mistakes at once and did the Hunters Island loop solo in a boat I had never even had in the water. That trip is still my favorite, but I digress.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit to find a forgotten pack at a campsite.

I have lost 2 things on trips. A Don Ivano popper in clown color in some bushes during a map read on Knife lake. And a bottle of soap. So far I haven't forgotten anything at a campsite or portage. I'm always asking the all important question....."Do I have everything"?  

"I think that's absolutely rediculous and am surprised at the number of people who clearly must forget their own packs frequently enough to think it's a reasonable assumption.  Maybe I'm just that amazing, that I've never forgotten a whole pack on a campsite."

Not amazing, just solo.  Being solo, or in a small group of 2 or 4 people, or more if all are experienced trippers, it is very  unlikely that someone would leave a pack behind.

But consider a larger group, say 9 people ( maybe kids)who are all inexperienced and using an outfitter - likely they pack differently every time they move, and who knows who grabs which pack at camp or at a portage (gee, I thought it was in your canoe ! - when and where did someone see that pack last?)  - that is much less unlikely, and I'd guess it happens occasionally.

I once found a pack (boy scout canvas pack on packframe) along a stream I was fishing, about 4 miles from the nearest trailhead - it was in a steep little canyon in very rugged terrain (had to wade parts of the stream to go up the canyon).  I was concerned that I didn't see anybody, or any sign of anybody - could be someone got lost (unlikely) or possibly fell and got hurt?  For that reason, I looked thru the pack to see if I could tell how long it had been there (and for any ID, which there was none) - it had all the usual camping stuff - cookpots, some food, misc, a big heavy down sleeping bag, etc.  None of the food was bad, so I concluded that it must have just been left by a fisherman whom I couldn't see ?  When I got home, I checked local sources to see if anyone was missing in that area - nope.  Forgot about it, then went back to the same stream a month or more later to fish it again, and there was the pack, right where it had been left earlier.  I salvaged the pack and sleeping bag, "buried" the remaining useless stuff in a rockslide, and hauled the heavy stuff out to clean up the woods.  I concluded that some newbe had had enough of backpacking, just quit and left his stuff behind on purpose - nothing in there was top of the line gear.  Household pots and pans, a Frostline kit down bag (which I still use in my truck in Winter), and the cheap canvas pack gets used every hunting season at one of my camps where I hang my gear up in the trees between trips.  That must have been 20 years ago or more.

Another time, me and my Dad found a .22 rifle left against a tree at an unoccupied campsite in the Adirondacks - from the rust accumulated, it seemed that it had been there a week or so - nothing else at the site.  We called out, but got no answer - decided to haul it back with us, and left it with the local police. Never heard anymore about it, other than the cop said that people leave stuff in the woods all the time, more than you'd think.

So, no, I don't think it is that farfetched to think that someone might have left a pack behind at a campsite and not bothered to come back for it.

After about 85 nights in Quetico, I've never seen it and hope I never do.

If we pulled up to a site after a wet, long and arduous travel day and found a pack "claiming" a site (and likely others) with no sign of owners -- they meeting up somewhere on the far side of the lake to discuss which of the sites they had claimed they would camp on -- I'm not so sure we would honor the "claim."

We probably WOULD assume "forgotten pack" only because the alternative -- outright rudeness -- would be less tolerable to think about in the wilderness.

If they returned, the tenor of the discussion would depend upon their approach.

Now, if it were tents and tarps, that would be different. That's their site. We'd have never gotten out of our canoes.

Of course, I've never been asked to share a site and have never asked to share a site -- tho we did offer some hot soup to a couple of paddlers passing by our Sunday Lake campsite in the cold and rain this past week.

-- kypaddler  

Preacher wrote on Sep 27^th, 2010 at 9:33pm:

DentonDoc wrote on Sep 27th, 2010 at 9:21pm: An unattended pack on a campsite could just as easily be interpreted as "they exited in a hurry and forgot this pack."   I think that's absolutely rediculous and am surprised at the number of people who clearly must forget their own packs frequently enough to think it's a reasonable assumption.  Maybe I'm just that amazing, that I've never forgotten a whole pack on a campsite.   ;D

Preacher, I'm knocking on wood while I type this, but I have never left a pack either.  However, working with kids, I've allowed a pack that I spied on the shore to be "forgotten" as the person responsible for that pack needed to learn a lesson.  We only paddled for 10 minutes before they caught on with my string of inquiries about whether or not we had everything.

As to stuff that was forgotten, misplaced, or otherwise left behind in camp or at a portage trail, here's what I've personally found that were each in plain view and could be construed as reserving a camp site:
1 food pack that reeked (probably mostly garbage); 1 size 4 Duluth Pack filled with gear; 1 medium size day pack filled with rain jackets; 1 tent (not set up); 2 paddles; 2 pfds; waterproof hard plastic case; huge tackle boxes; 2 fishing poles and fishing nets; hardsided cooler; pair of boots; climbing ropes (probably bear ropes); 1 Chaco sandal.

Oh, and I also found a junked aluminum canoe at a camp site once.  In all of the cases that we stayed on the campsite, nobody came back to claim the site, much less the gear/trash.  Like PJ said "Some people's kids."  :-?

Wow, I've come across lost items.  Never a whole pack.  The most I ever found was a bundle of 4 sleeping pads and this was in Q at the NE corner of Batchewan Bay.  They were high on the rocks.  No path or trail around.  No footprints at the landing except for a raccoon.  One of the pads had been chewed on by some varmint.  The only reason for them being there I could fathom was that they had been blown there by wind & wave.

I've a bunch of pegs and guy lines that I've found on site.

Oh, I'm reminded of some gear left in APP that was appeared to be the result of a bad experience.  Not on a camping site.  Pots & pans, toiletries & a sleeping bag all out in the rain in November.  

A whole pack?  Wow.  Maybe I have OCD, but I can't leave site or a portage without one last once-over to make sure I have everything.

Again on the overall topic, it seems prudent to take 5 minutes to set up a shelter before going fishing.  Site shopping is fromage, I don't know of any experienced trippers that do it this way if at all.

I want to know what you guys think of this. Dumping a single pack on a sight then being far away for long periods of time, that's obviously bad manners. But how about, and I've done this, getting to the sight you know you're going to take, throwing all your gear there, usually pretty obviously in the middle of the sight, and then going out fishing or exploring the lake some more. Basically just not getting to setting up your sight but having every intention of staying at the place you put your gear. When I've done this before I've been within sight, or at least almost within sight of the campsight. Am I being rude when I've done this or is what's being talked about as rude a different thing.
Just to clarify, I'm definetly not dropping a pack at each sight on a lake while looking for hte best one.

 I don't see it as bad manners at all. While I'm sure single packs have been left by mistake, having a big pile of gear sitting at the campsite certainly tells me that it's taken.

I think part of the problem that some people have, is that leaving packs on the site isn't always apparent from a distance. Depending on conditions, people might fight wind/waves to get to a site, only to find it taken at the last minute as they pull up.

I think you'd be better served, if you took the time to throw up a tarp, or hang a pack. I often use my binoculars to scan for an open site, especially if I have too work to get there. It's not an obligation, but more of a consideration, especially in the BW where available sites might be an issue. You can see a tarp/ hanging pack from a distance.

There are always going too be people who think their choice in campsites should be the one they planned on, but other's might appreciate the heads-up from a distance.

solotripper wrote on Oct 5^th, 2010 at 5:56pm:

I don't see it as bad manners at all. While I'm sure single packs have been left by mistake, having a big pile of gear sitting at the campsite certainly tells me that it's taken.

For me a big pile of gear is a single pack!   ;D

You know, I never would have thought it much of a big deal before but I think I'll have to start making sure I always put up at least some shelter when I'm planning on using a site that night. It's usually just for lazyness reasons that I haven't right away other times in the past so I guess this is another reason to avoid lazyness.

I think it depends where, in BWCAW for example, no, I would not honor it. If I were in a fowl mood I might even throw it in woods and claim "what pack, there was no pack when I got here" In Quetico, maybe. Wabakimi, WCPP, yes.

Note to woman with friend who was bumped off campsite by another group in BWCAW, there is no rule stating that if somebody is camping at a site you cannot. The only rule is that there cannot be more than nine at a site, you could have told them you were camping there and they were welcome to as well.

They sound like pricks though, so maybe not people you want to be around.

People have been describing two different situations: holding a site briefly and reserving a site that you do not even stay in one or more nights.  The later is never acceptable, no matter what you leave at the site.

Leaving just a single thing, even a pack, is iffy because someone could think it was forgotten.  But leaving behind a bunch of stuff (or a pack where gear has been removed to some extent) clearly shows someone is occupying the site.  Setting up a tent is not required.  I can even see a scenario where someone going out for a day trip but returning to the same campsite might take down their tent because of concerns of what weather might do if the tent is left up (maybe the tent is in a location where it is hard to tie it down and the site is quite exposed to wind).

I have seen the practice as my vote would show. Do I think it's a good practice or would I drop a pack to prospect other sites, never.  It's as  simple as the Golden Rule.

Azalea makes an important distinction.  To drop some of my gear at a site while I go prospecting for something better is very different from dropping off my gear with a clear intention to stay while I take advantage of the day and go off and fish or check out the lake.  The problem is that for the person coming upon the gear it is impossible to tell the difference.  Personally I would choose to believe the person is doing the latter rather than the former but to be quite honest its never actually happened to me and these days I'm tending to do my tripping in more secluded regions where it is most probably a non-issue anyway.  Philosophically speaking the answer is, as has already been pointed out, adherence to the Golden Rule.

Golden Rule? Like I tell my daughter "He who has the gold makes the rules"
:D :D :D
I'm sorry, I couldn't help it.

My position? Set up your site. Seems simple enough. Might as well take a 30 minute nap while your at it..........then go catch some dinner.

Wouldn't do it, and have never seen it done.  Take the time to set up camp, it just makes sense.  No one likes to fish more than me, and I would always set up camp before going fishing.

Twice I've had to share campsites with trippers who weren't on the ball all that well.  They got into areas at dusk where the only campsite around was occupied by us.  Both instances were in Lake Superior PP, not the Q.  Both went well, no problem.  Not ideal, but you roll with it.

Mark