Initially I had thought to obtain info via PM's concerning my interest in a WCP trip I am hoping to do next summer. When one of the Inukshuks whom I have high regard for suggested I post the trip and ask for advice and suggestions I thought....."why not"?

As a perpetual planner and someone who equates knowledge with things going well I am certainly open to any and all comments wether pro or con. Besides, some talk on this subject may inspire someone else to do a dream trip of their own.

Despite my occasional big talk I'm an average guy. I'm not the biggest, or the strongest, or the fastest.........What I believe I have going for me is a "can do" attitude, an affinity for hard work and I don't usually complain much beyond the usual suspects ("I'm tired"......."I'm hungry"........."my butt hurts" ;D ).  

This will be my first venture into WCP. I had hoped to have as much as 30 days to do what I will outline but that has been trimmed to 21. I suspect I may have to re-evaluate my plans. But here is my initial formative route and I give my thanks in advance to any who would weigh in.

EP Lund lake
Knox- Murdock- Bloodvein river- Artery lake
South along the western border-Haggert river- irregular lake
Exiting at Leano

I have virtually no info concerning a route from irregular to Leano and am quite keen to hear about this area.

Thanks again
Al

mastertangler wrote on Oct 6^th, 2010 at 6:49pm:

I have virtually no info concerning a route from irregular to Leano and am quite keen to hear about this area.

What route are you thinking about from Irregular to Leano?  How do you plan to exit Irregular ... northeast (to Beamish) or southeast (to Eagle)?

Coming to Leano from Bunny or Kilburn?  
What approach lakes would you likely use ... Mexican Hat, Paull, Dragon, something else?

dd

MT,

I trust you have read through all of the related stories in the WCPP section of the canoestories.com website (see:     (You need to Login or Register ).  I have been able to pull most of the information for my two WCPP trips from these stories AND from references made within these stories to other sources (such as Martin Kehoe, the park service, etc.).  Doug & especially Claire at the park office are also very helpful.  Another great source was Albert at Goldseekers.  Might be worth a truck-in fee to Leano just for the additional insight he can offer.  Also, it seems to me that hexnymph, pghportager and that bunch also posted an excellent account of their (quick) travels through the south central & southeastern sector of the park on another website.  It covered at least some of that stretch back to Leano from the Irregular area, as I recall.

My own travels have been through the SE quadrant and the Central East quadrant of the park.  I would be happy to pass along specific details from what I can recall of our routes.  The summer of 2009 trip went like this:  Leano, Kilburn, Paull, Aegean, Wrist, Mexican Hat, Bunny, Leano (KF's team went a little further to the NW of my team).  Our summer of 2010 route went like this: Lund, Knox, Murdock, a bushwhack across HELL, Irvine Lake, chain of lakes west of Irvine (including Larus Falls & Split Rock), Royd, Gammon, Upper Gammon, Gammon River, Indian House and Lund.  KF & I published an account of the 2009 trip in a BWJ issue that came out earlier in the year.  I expect a similar account of the 2010 trip will likewise be published by the BWJ sometime in 2011.  If a draft of that would help you, let me know.

I'm thinking I've been contacted by half-a-dozen QJers looking to do WCPP trips in the near future.  Other QJers I know with experience up there include: prouboy, MagicPaddler, DentonDoc, PJ, Old Salt, & Snow Dog in addition to the several guys who have posted their 2010 WCPP trip reports on QJ.  Also, if you aren't directly corresponding with Martin Kehoe, you probably need to be.  He is a fount of knowledge on the park.

I, for one, am envious of a 21 day trip to WCPP.  I'd especially like to see the west side of the park and will likely enter from Manitoba whenever I get back there.  I don't know when that will be, however.  The dude that publishes my stories has indicated he has reached his "WCPP limit" and has asked that I not send anymore for awhile.  I've suggested that he is being a bit shortsighted.  It seems to me that more & more veterans appear to be headed to WCPP for the challenge & freshness of the experience versus the BWCA/Quetico.  I would also think he might find a few new advertisers in the Red Lake area who would like to see more WCPP stories.

Hmmmm... I may just be talking myself right back into doing another WCPP trip in 2011!  Again, I'm envious & wish you the best with your planning.  I'll check more carefully through my other WCPP source material for information related to your route this weekend.

Jimbo   8-)

Al -

You might also find some material of interest on:

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Under "Current conditions" there is mention of the southern portages being cleared during this season.

dd

Thanks guys
I'm pretty excited. I think what they say about "one track mind" is very true. It'll probably remain that way for me until I get this nailed down. I'm well on my way though. I have brought all my trippin stuff from Michigan back to Florida to see how things are going to pan out. I am very curious.  

DD, I haven't the slightest clue about a route from Irregular to Leano. I have some time (Yea, like ALL winter) to let that percolate. I am waiting to gather some info and probably lay out a practical itinerary from Lund to Irregular first to see how much time I have left to play with.

I will probably be leaning toward something fairly clean. The last thing I want is to be engaged in tough route finding when I need to be in Chicago the last weekend of August. I will likely take the advice of someone knowledgable for this last leg.

RE; Portage data base
In addition to the usual journaling I intend to keep scrupulous/detailed notes concerning the portages. Should someone have the time and inclination to set one up this info could prove helpful.

Just start a new thread about your portage notes, and post them in this forum. ;)

I have received the topo maps from Ostrom outdoors. I had heard some dubious comments about the maps but I rather like them. I actually like the black and white and that they are not on waterproof paper. This makes it easier to use a marker and highlight things.

I feel good about my time frame and have concluded my planning. From Irregular south to Eagle and up the Talon river.

Talon lake-boomerang-dragon-kilburn-leano

From Irregular to Eagle looks potentially "interesting". Maybe it won't be as snotty as I suspect. At least I will be a bit lower on supplies.

I know when one travels it is wise to have a "spare tire" and it fully inflated. I'm not really sure about that though and am hopefully going to proceed without one  ;) .

mastertangler wrote on Oct 9^th, 2010 at 1:19am:

Talon lake-boomerang-dragon-kilburn-leano

If you find yourself on Upper Kilburn, you might consider taking the 1000 meter (200 rod) portage from Upper Kilburn directly east to Kilburn.  This is a relatively new portage that was cleared by the park staff a couple of years back (so it doesn't appear on most existing maps).  It would be relatively flat on the Upper Kilburn end and descent to Kilburn.  Even at 200 rods, I think it would be quicker than paddling all the way around.

dd

Excellent. Whatever time I had left to burn (if any) I had intended to spend on Kilburn/upper kilburn. Good info....thanks Doc!

DentonDoc wrote on Oct 9^th, 2010 at 2:07am:

mastertangler wrote on Oct 9th, 2010 at 1:19am: Talon lake-boomerang-dragon-kilburn-leano If you find yourself on Upper Kilburn, you might consider taking the 1000 meter (200 rod) portage from Upper Kilburn directly east to Kilburn.  This is a relatively new portage that was cleared by the park staff a couple of years back (so it doesn't appear on most existing maps).  It would be relatively flat on the Upper Kilburn end and descent to Kilburn.  Even at 200 rods, I think it would be quicker than paddling all the way around. dd

I walked all of that portage in 2009. It was blocked by a couple of downed trees on the east end which are probably cleared away by now. Otherwise it was a flat, wide easy trail.

Even though I have spent a significant amount of time "off trail" in my time outdoors I have never been especially knowledgable with map and compass. I seldom get lost though. Mostly because I stick to significant landmarks such as rivers, ridges etc. I have found that just by paying attention to the map in the Quetico I have seldom had to use a compass (Crooked lake being an exception).

WCP may challenge that notion however. We'll see. I detest the thought of being outclassed or in over my head (no pun intended) and have dedicated myself to becoming more knowledgable with the tools of the trade, that being map, compass and GPS. I came across this tutorial and thought it was a good start. I'm sure many of you are already familiar with this material but for those who aren't I thought I would provide the link.
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If anyone has any on-line links or print material they recommend I am certainly eager to hear about it. The simpler the better to start out with. Line upon line, precept upon precept is an excellent way to a good foundation.  

MT,

All the tools (GPS, compass, following your map) are highly recommended in WCPP but even with all those you'll need a healthy helping of patience and, hopefully, some luck.  Finding some of those portages is a real challenge.  They're there (most of the time) but often nearly invisible.  We had three pairs of experienced eyes this last go'round and STILL got confounded frequently.  Also, as far as campsites go, ONLY trust what some other paddler has CONFIRMED actually exists.  Fully half the time the campsites shown on park supplied information did not exist.  Be prepared to clear brush & improvise campsites.

Jimbo   8-)

This is sounding better all the time. [smiley=thumbup.gif]

The only thing I refuse to let happen is to "misplace" my gear. To that end I will be bringing extra gorp for use in establishing a trail back to where I started the portage.

Seriously though, I am particularly interested in the portages between Irregular and Eagle. Most of the route provides options and alternatives should I not like what I'm seeing (or not seeing). The exception is into Eagle. Should I be turned back it would be a day backtrack. This would  of course likely prove added incentive to slug it out if the portages are bad or for practical purposes non-existent. As a "risk/reward" sort of guy I like info....even if it is very general. I like knowing the 1 mile into Ford lake is steep and rugged. Consequently, I can envision not attempting it in wet conditions.

Ease around, stay hydrated and make good decisions. Perhaps easier said than done but that will be my motto.

 

 

Al -

I supposed you've read this story from canoestories.com?

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It describes the route from Irregular to Leano ... just in the opposite direction and it may be a bit further south than you'd planned.  You might also want to take a peak at the maps associated with each of the chapters.

dd

Thanks DD,
This story had escaped me and yet it is so very relevant! What a great read. I was suspicious of the route between eagle and irregular and now with good reason. Rope to let your pack and boat down! I'll be going the other way......I may need to get a running start  ;D.
 

mastertangler wrote on Oct 11^th, 2010 at 12:58pm:

Rope to let your pack and boat down! I'll be going the other way.

Don't give up so quickly.  I've had to do that in Quetico (McDougal to Keats) ... and of course it had been raining

dd

Who said anything about giving up? Nay way hosea'. I'll be coming from the opposite direction so instead of coming down I'll be going up.

Instead of a running start I have since thought of using a giant rubber band made from a semi truck tire and making a giant slingshot to gain the top. I just need to get the trajectory right......... :D

mastertangler wrote on Oct 11^th, 2010 at 12:58pm:

Thanks DD, This story had escaped me and yet it is so very relevant! What a great read. I was suspicious of the route between eagle and irregular and now with good reason. Rope to let your pack and boat down! I'll be going the other way......I may need to get a running start  ;D.

Actually, I interpreted "I'll be going the other way" to mean that you'd decided to exit Irregular via Beamish rather than Eagle.


mastertangler wrote on Oct 11^th, 2010 at 3:44pm:

Who said anything about giving up? Nay way hosea'. I'll be coming from the opposite direction so instead of coming down I'll be going up. Instead of a running start I have since thought of using a giant rubber band made from a semi truck tire and making a giant slingshot to gain the top. I just need to get the trajectory right......... :D

Don't know if I'd change my route to go UPHILL rather than downhill.  At least you have gravity working with you to lower your gear!  But your mileage may vary.  ;D

dd

It did sound like I was giving the Monty Phythons call for retreat ("RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY"!!). But such was not the case. I must admit to a bit of a smile when I read about the route. Tough but doable. It's "there" in other words.

After a dream I had last night I have reconsidered the slingshot idea.

Instead I am figuring I could tie a length of rope to a small boulder, toss the boulder up the hill, and pull myself to it. Repeat the process until I am to the top [smiley=thumbup.gif].  

Sounds like a pretty good plan to me but I would contact Jim Hegyi and see what he would advise on the Irr. to Eagle route. I took a little walk on the first 500 out of Irr. and was really glad I was not portaging it.

The paddle up the Talon and through Boomerang with be the payoff for finding your way to Eagle. The picture of my GPS mounting system at the start of the Creeks and Trails story on canoestories.com is on the way to the 375 portage to Dragon. As I recall those little ponds on the route are not as big as they appear on the map. Note how there are two ways to exit the pond preceding the portage. This is one of those places where a GPS's Topo map will let you know that you are in the right pond and the little crease in the grass is the stream you want to take.

Thanks Martin,
I will indeed contact Jim Heygi and try and glean what info I can.

I wish you had said you were "glad" that you were not portaging that stretch instead of "REALLY glad"  ;D. I'll take a look & see if it will go for me. You have my curiosity up now.

I will also be certain to take note of your description of the "crease in the grass" on my map. Thanks for the heads up.  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

I am thinking of taking a side trip to Job lake. An exploratory venture to see if it is worth incorporating into a base camp/NE loop future trip. I know I should focus on whats on my plate but I start looking at the map and I can't help myself......I suspect you know the feeling.

It looks to be a fairly clean run from Barclay, say about 3/4 day with stable weather :question. Have you been to Job?  

I have not been further than Musclow but Bill Fulton makes a few comments in a canoestories journal about Job to Musclow.

wrote on Oct 19^th, 2010 at 3:06am:

on the Irr. to Eagle route. I took a little walk on the first 500 out of Irr. and was really glad I was not portaging it.

Care to elaborate Martin?  

When a man that has been all over that country says he's really glad not to traverse a trail I suppose it should get my attention.    

Seemed pretty clear to me. I don't think much stops Marten...

That's what I was afraid of.  ;D

Nice to know how "steep is steep" or "how deep you sink".

I guess I'll find out when I get there. (Lord willing of course, as who knows what a day will bring :question)......my intention though is to get across.

Wear your brightly colored PFD, as mom said, to make it easier to find the remains... ;D

wrote on Oct 20^th, 2010 at 2:19am:

I have not been further than Musclow but Bill Fulton makes a few comments in a canoestories journal about Job to Musclow.

Interesting story. It took them a day to get to musclow from Job. The windy creeks always take longer than you think. For some reason I want to go there and did so from the first moment I seen it on the map.

Barclay to Job in 1 day seems doable to me. If not I would have to reconsider going. What do you think Marten, with an early start would you like your chances of getting there in a reasonable time?

AHH, the memories of great days in WCPP. As you are aware the weather up on those big waters is the limiting factor. I agree with the draw those waters have on a person when drooling over the maps in the off season. I had just the right winds on my foray into Musclow. An early start on Dunstan and tailwinds all the way to the top of Musclow. A quick supper and then an evening paddle back down those ominous waves of the big lake. On those big waters the kilometers can fly by but the wind can mess with your dreams.

Now for my thoughts on the Irregular to Eagle route. I walked some rough country on the 500 meter exiting Irr. and then came to a bog of stunted Spruce. The trail had seen no use to compress the deep moss and had numerous small trees fallen across it. The next day I exited Irr. on the 825 to the east. It was a hard portage and my notes say it was not as bad as the 500. Canoestories has many stories from some guys that do most of their WCPP entries from the south. I do not remember them ever writing about going to Irregular but figure they have or knew not to.

Thank you Marten. I honestly can't explain how, but for some reason I had a gut feeling the stretch from Irregular to Eagle was going to be of particular difficulty. Heygi's mention of rope work and now your description of a "stunted spruce bog" has served to heighten my anticipation level. I am hoping that it will not be excessively hot or wet on that day.

Now please bear with me as the questions I am going to ask are likely to be patently obvious for anyone with minimal experience using maps and GPS in conjunction.

I have read in one of your accounts (superb BTW, very enjoyable) where you described entering the waypoints to the portages ahead of time into the GPS. Am I correct in assuming that you use the UTM grid on the maps to arrive at the numbers? If so, what method did you use to accurately divide the "tenths" inside a kilometer "box" that the grid makes. Is there a mathematical tool that you can purchase or devise? Or did you estimate?

Thank you for educating me. Maybe I can carry a few loads across for you someday.  ;)  

There are a few ways to enter waypoints for portages or points of interest ahead of time. I have used the method you came up with of using a metric ruler and then estimating the UTM numbers for the easting and northing position. Since the UTM numbers are actually distance all the way down to meters for the last 3 digits it works OK.

With the advent of the Canada Topo maps on the computer it is now a lot easier. With the park map at your side and the desired lake zoomed in on the computer screen and the waypoint tool enabled it is a simple matter of moving the cursor to the desired spot and clicking. This will record the spot as a waypoint. I advise naming the waypoint to avoid future confusion with the default number that is assigned. Record all these and any other info from other sources into one file for your trip. You can use copy and paste to glean items from others files.

When complete upload the file to your GPS.

A few cautions:
Avoid the default numbers because only one of duplicate numbers will be stored in the GPS.

Garmin only reads the first 9 digits of a name, hence if there is a list that all have the same first 9 digits it will only load one of the list.

Keep separate files for different aspects and trips.

Wow Marten, you are a Godsend. In fact Quiet Journey and its contributors have been a total blessing to me. Considerable influence over my summer trip to Quetico was due in large part to a QJ contributor and now I am expanding my horizons to an area I had not even known existed less than a year ago.

Again I ask your indulgence. These questions are coming from someone who only in the last couple of years acquired a cell phone, e mail and the like. When I joined QJ less than a year ago the term "copy and paste" was completely foreign. :o..........HEY, I'VE BEEN BUSY.......OK!  ;)

The Topo Canada for the computer...........Is that the same program that I can purchase through Garmin to load into my GPS?

signed,
      Clueless in Clewiston

mastertangler wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 5:39pm:

The Topo Canada for the computer...........Is that the same program that I can purchase through Garmin to load into my GPS?

Nearly right.  Topo Canada (and many other products offered by Garmin) is actually DATA.  The program that manipulates the data is MapSource.  Much of the Topo Canada is LINE data ... e.g., contour lines, shore lines, etc.  So, when you add a waypoint, you are simply adding more data (in the form of a POINT rather than a line).  Other features of mapping tools (like MapSource) allow you to draw your own lines (for example), which could be anticipated routes (which I find really helpful to estimate total travel distance over a snake-like paddle through a series of lakes and portages).  The tools often label these forms as ROUTES and TRACKS.  

So ultimately, what you load to your GPS can be a combination of MAPS (from Topo Canada), WAYPOINTS, ROUTES, and TRACKS (which you can create for yourself or find elsewhere).

By lesson 42, we will talk about creating custom waypoint symbols so you can reduce the amount of clutter on your screen (you may find that the built-in waypoint symbols are a bit large for your taste).

dd

Thanks for jumping in DD.

You will not believe how far you can go by lesson 51.

Garmin GPS's above the basic ones come with a CD containing MapSource, the program you load to the computer.

Garmin Topo Canada is a DVD of Canada Topo Maps which you load to your computer. You then select the ones needed and load them to the GPS.

It is much easier to build and work on a trip file on the computer and then load the the file to the GPS. You can upload additional waypoints, tracks and routes into the GPS at any time.

Note that when you upload maps to the Garmin GPS it will first delete all loaded maps except the factory installed basemap.

Keep the questions coming and we will all learn something from the answers.

wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 7:50pm:

You will not believe how far you can go by lesson 51.

[MT and I shared a few PM's about this topic last week.]

And by lesson 67 we might event start talking about importing/exporting/converting files between/among MapSource, Memory Maps, ArcGIS and other mapping tools ... or even making map data from data that starts out as an excel spreadsheet or database ... what fun!

Hey, I've been playing with this stuff for a while.  My first successful personal mapping project was 20+ years ago.  Back then, I could find data (DLG format from USGS, for example) for all of the US, but had some difficulty finding software to process it.  Before writing my own, I actually discovered that faculty and students at the U.S. Naval Academy had a version they would share with the public.  It struck me funny at the time that the U.S. Navy would be interested in topographical maps until I realized that the mountains in which they were most interested were under water.  It also came with a wire-frame "fly through" feature ... like driving a submarine through a submerged canyon.  (I guess this also explains why the software didn't differentiate between land and water).  Of course, my interested lay more in navigating canyons and mountain ranges in Colorado.

dd

You guys are the best.

I haven't shopped around for pricing (they're proud of their work $$!) but I want to make sure if this is what I need to get.

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It looks to be Mac compatible.
[smiley=dankk2.gif]

mastertangler wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 8:36pm:

You guys are the best. I haven't shopped around for pricing (they're proud of their work $$!) but I want to make sure if this is what I need to get.   (You need to Login or Register It looks to be Mac compatible. [smiley=dankk2.gif]

That's it ... but you might want to shop around a bit.  I seems to remember paying just under $100 for mine ... but that has been several years ago.  [I just checked and Amazon has it for $99.99.]

Also, you need to go back to the Garmin web site periodically.  With some degree of regularity they make upgrades and fixes to MapSource that are free downloads.

dd

Be careful MT, if Marten and DD make this too easy for you then you might not want to go.

Kingfisher wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 9:19pm:

Be careful MT, if Marten and DD make this too easy for you then you might not want to go.

SHHHH! Don't discourage them. Easy is good. My life is complicated enough.

Besides, unlike a few notable others here on QJ I actually LIKE knowing where I'm at.  ;)

I am hoping this exchange will turn up some alternatives to the Garmin Topo maps. I use them for convenience but wonder if there are better maps out there. I was on the Wabikimi Project with Uncle Phil a few years ago and his GPS map even had old canoe routes displayed.

wrote on Oct 25^th, 2010 at 2:21am:

I am hoping this exchange will turn up some alternatives to the Garmin Topo maps. I use them for convenience but wonder if there are better maps out there. I was on the Wabikimi Project with Uncle Phil a few years ago and his GPS map even had old canoe routes displayed.

I haven't had a chance to try it out yet and I'm not sure if it includes WCPP, but this may be an alternative:
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Further Discussion:
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arnesr wrote on Oct 25^th, 2010 at 9:43pm:

[quote author=Marten link=1286390020/30#39 date=1287973295]I am hoping this exchange will turn up some alternatives to the Garmin Topo maps. I use them for convenience but wonder if there are better maps out there. I was on the Wabikimi Project with Uncle Phil a few years ago and his GPS map even had old canoe routes displayed.

I haven't had a chance to try it out yet and I'm not sure if it includes WCPP, but this may be an alternative:
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Further Discussion:
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The resources described in his documentation (which are all public domain) should include ALL of Canada.  But keep in mind that the focus of the material is, by-in-large, topographical.  Yes, you will be albe to see contour lines and other details, but there will be some detail missing that a canoe traveler would like to have (e.g., portages).

dd

Well, the easy part is over. For the first time in my outdoor life I have put an emphasis on going light. I have evaluated most of my gear and upgraded to something lighter. Tent, camera, bags etc. have been replaced. Other than some pain writing the checks (OUCH!) it was fairly easy....a few mouse clicks and bingo the stuff shows up at the front door.

Now comes the hard part. I'm probably 30lb's overweight with a knee I'm not to happy with. It doesn't give me any pain and it got me around Mt. Rainier but I don't trust it. Can't run or jump. Going to the knee doc in a few weeks. Maybe they can fix it so I can run and jump with the other boys and girls. We'll see.

Part of the reasoning for this trip is to get into primo shape. Bite off something ambitious and rise to the occasion. Workouts start soon........I have the P90x routine and it kicked my tail last winter. Now if I can just ease off on the groceries  ;D.

mastertangler wrote on Nov 19^th, 2010 at 12:46pm:

Well, the easy part is over.

You are 100% correct

mastertangler wrote on Nov 19^th, 2010 at 12:46pm:

I have the P90x routine and it kicked my tail last winter.

I will vouch for P90X (and <1300 calories a day).  I'm down 80 lbs from last April and can do more pull ups than I could in College.  It is a good program.

PhantomJug wrote on Nov 20^th, 2010 at 12:15am:

mastertangler wrote on Nov 19th, 2010 at 12:46pm: I have the P90x routine and it kicked my tail last winter. I will vouch for P90X (and <1300 calories a day).  I'm down 80 lbs from last April and can do more pull ups than I could in College.  It is a good program.

Maybe I should switch to Scotch!  At 65 calories per ounce ... its a diet drink!

dd

I'm in the same boat as MT... 30# must go before spring. My goal is to do this before Canoecopia. Ain't going to be easy!

Quote:

I will vouch for P90X (and <1300 calories a day).  I'm down 80 lbs from last April and can do more pull ups than I could in College.  It is a good program.

A belated well done PJ 8-)
Losing weight is never easy, sticking to a restricted calorie diet and exercise program is harder still.

The best workout program is the one you'll do on a regular basis and that offers high rewards with minimal risks. It can be as aggressive as the P90X program, Kettle-bells which I like, or just a simple daily walk with maybe a little upper body calisthenics thrown in.

A lower body weight even with minimal exercise will be noticeable.
Carrying around all that extra weight is a workout in itself. 80lbs is the equivalent of OS's food pack minus pack extenders or so I'm told :'( ;D

I have been on a low carbohydrate diet for 15+ years.  I eat all I want! Some times more than is comfortable.  I am down more than 25 LB starting at 208 LB. I just choose foods that are low in nonfiber carbohydrates. I did not start the low carbohydrate diet to lose weight, that was just a side effect. Long ago I was able to lose weight by limiting my calories intake but eventually the weight comes back.  
I have been using Claritin since it became an over the counter drug.  For several years I would use it for several months each year.  I noticed that after I had been using it for about one month my knees stopped hurting and my limp went away.  I have been taking one pill a day for the past 5 years and my knees are better than they were 20 years ago.  I don’t take it for my knees, that is just a side effect.  I have never been able to lose weight by exercise but doing exercise before a trip makes it so I can do the trip easier.  
MagicPaddler

I have picked up topo canada from garmin but it's still sitting in my desk drawer. I'll pop it in soon and the fun will start. I am still becoming familiar with the UTM grid. It's s-l-o-w-l-y starting to sink in. I have just ordered this tool and intend to mark a lot of the campsite info by hand just to make sure I am completely familiar with the grid system. This looks to be a handy tool.

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Crap! Looks like I've been walking around with a pretty serious meniscus tear for the past 15 years. Doc said he had never seen nothing like it. I don't feel quite so indestructible all of a sudden. 3/4 way through :'(.

At first he doubted it could even be fixed but then rose to the occasion. Who doesn't like a challenge right? No blood flow to the inside of the tear so less than 50% (probably more like 10%) chance it would take and that would be after 6 weeks on crutches.

Choices. It doesn't hurt and it got me around Mt. Rainier and Glacier with a pack pushing 70lbs (I took waders into glacier ;D) and I still set up and tear down shows every weekend. Can't run or jump and it wanted to come apart in the tortugas fishing though. The longer I wait and older I get the tougher it would be to fix. On the other hand any surgery also runs the risk of blood clots and heart attack or stroke.

Time to seek out the best and get another opinion. Maybe a doc who does pro sports teams has seen something like this. Good thing I have a choice in the matter and can decide to see another doc and get another opinion.

Weight is coming off now. Time to get serious.

Mt sorry to hear that.  Isn’t modern medicine great!  A few years back there would be only one option (live with it).  Now there is a good chance they can fix or replace it. I know it still a traumatic experience.

Actually MP I was only down for a couple of days when it happened some 15 years ago playing football with all the neighborhood kids in my yard. Then about 4 years ago I noticed it didn't like impact. Went back to some martial arts to get in shape and bingo (I wonder if I can still get my black belt with one leg :D). Thought some yoga would help but then it really got floppy with all the stretching. That really got my attention last year.

The Trauma would be 6 weeks on crutches :(. Maybe I'll write a book while I'm layed up. "Capt. Gibbys baby book" Sorta like that Dr. Spock guy except with a catchier name. (And I'll advocate beating your kids to a pulp.....bout time the pendulum swung back the other way ;D )

As one who has been there, done that, (I've had major meniscus tears and surgeries in both knees) I would opt for the surgery. The surgeon will do everything possible to minimize risks, and they have to warn you of them. I also have some coronary issues, so I know those risks also.

After surgery, you will have lot's of physical therapy, which will strenthen the knee. I had a partial knee replacement just over a year ago, and I am very glad I had it done. My knees were so bad that I had to give up canoe trips after 07. This past summer, I was able to resume tripping.

While it is never pleasant to consider surgery, I believe that if you do it, it will add years to your outdoor life.

Thanks for the encouragement OS. I'm not sure what to do. This guy had never seen a tear like this and was telling the other docs to check it out. I felt like a oddity on display at some curio shop. First time I had seen a MRI. Really quite amazing! I'm getting around pretty good and wouldn't think twice about doing what I've always done..... perhaps just a little slower. Run for 10 hours instead of 12 ;D.

I'm going to see what this other guy who has done quite a few big name sports stars says and go from there. I've got April and the first half of May open to heal up. Just not sure it's going to take. I'll pray for the wisdom that comes from above that is peaceable and easy to entreat for guidance.

So glad to hear that your quality of life has improved. I would like very much to meet you some day and yes fish together. I can picture it now..........the sun is shining, the birds are chirpin and we're grinnin while liftin waldos over the gunnels :).

The whole navigation via compass and GPS is still new to me. I've always just looked at the map and found my way around. I intend to plot courses on this trip and really take the time to use a compass as well as take the GPS coordinates and plot where I'm at on the map a few times a day. Might as well come off this trip with a new skill.

Here is the compass I am considering. I like the idea of a rotating bezel. I intend to mount it permanently to thwart. It seems like it's big enough to see easily. Curious what you guys with experience think as I have very little with compasses other than a pin on one to get me out of the deer hunting woods.
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Wow, manufactured in the USA even. I've always used a Silva, thinking they were made in Sweden. Not any more. This year I got a Brunton which I like as it's bigger for my aging eyes.  ;D My thwart in my Encounter is like a mile ahead of me so I'd never be able to see a compass mounted there well enough. I'm looking for ideas to mount my GPS near me so I can see it while paddling. Possibly from my seat pedistal...

So,...how many batteries will you need for the compass? :o ;D

As for fishing together, we will need to use my canoe, with it's mounted crane & winch (battery operated, 4 D cells) which enables us to land the fish I catch.  ;D

mastertangler wrote on Dec 4^th, 2010 at 2:01pm:

The whole navigation via compass and GPS is still new to me. I've always just looked at the map and found my way around. I intend to plot courses on this trip and really take the time to use a compass SNIP I have very little with compasses other than a pin on one to get me out of the deer hunting woods.   (You need to Login or Register

Don't know but I'd be afraid a compass like that would be constantly spinning/wobbling with each stroke/wave. Unless you're paddling at night or in the fog it's much easier to orient map and compass, pick out a landmark and paddle at it. If you also set the map down in your direction of travel it will help keep your position/direction/brain in sync. It's not that hard.

While you can be very accurate, it's much easier to shoot for a little left or right of the mark so when you arrive where you were aiming and the portage or whatever isn't there, odds are you'll know in which direction to look.

Nice OS ;D

MT will you be able to take the compass of the boat to go for walks?

No batteries required. Some are backlit though for night travel.
OS looks like the fish I catch you can just use for bait.  ;)

DB your navigation style is mine exactly. Or should I say usually. This trip I would like to employ a compass and follow a bearing. Learn a new skill where it's not crucial that I be without error. With my usual map reading and occasional GPS usage as a backup I want to get a "feel" for following a route by using a compass bearing.

I hadn't thought about it spinning as per the cheap clip ons I used to use. We'll see, this is a kayakers compass and other boaters use a compass so I suspect the dag-gone thing better work. (Or else my boys will meet with theirs.......sometimes things gets messy >:( )

It is removable but I have no intention of removing it and will take steps to insure that it doesn't want to find a new home without me. I will have a separate compass (probably a silva ranger) to keep on me. And of course a trail of gorp left behind to help me find my way back to the boat.  

The mounted kayak compass I was considering has been discontinued and replaced with these from the same company.

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More or less the same except it is a bit trimmer and has better styling. Plus it is black instead of white and will match my boat better. ::) I'll give it a go and let you know how I like it. I might have to do some machining and make an adapter plate so it rides primarily in the cockpit area instead of overhanging into the cargo area where it might get pulled off....bolts or no bolts.

Wow, that was fast. Just got my booklet UTM; using your GPS with the UTM map coordinate system booklet.

handy little grid tool was included but unfortunately it is for 1;24,000 scale.
I will order the right one.

I am liking getting the same info from several differing sources. They all intersect and it is helping. Yes, I know it is sort of basic but you know what they say about old dogs. Anyway, this is a cool company if your into maps and such.
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Master Angler,
Been reading all under WCPP here today.  I did a six day solo from Leano and looped North and West to Mexican Hat, to Nutria and then South down to Paull and Back to Leano.  I have BAD KNEE two surguries for Minisucus and NO ACL on Right Leg.  I am 5' 9" and am almost 54 years old and weigh 220 (overweight)  I took a 50 pound pack gear and such, a 20 lb pack (food with two bear vaults in it) a thwart bag 3 lbs and the canoe, paddles etc.  I double portaged everything and sometimes triple portaged the short stuff.  I took the topo maps, the park map (which I acutally blew up my route at office max to twice the size of original) and compass and Garmin 400 GPS Topo.  This was my first solo ever, and with patience, all will be well.  Take it at YOUR pace and watch your steps and all will be fine.
Denton Doc and Jimbo and Martin all helped me with various aspects and hats off to those fella's.
I did get a new solo canoe a couple weeks ago a Bell RockStar in Kevlight.  Can't wait to try it out on a true solo.  Took it to the lake when it was 29 degrees out just had to try it out before I put it into hibernation.  Blessings on your planning and trip and health.
SunCatcher

MT,

I have a Kayak compass that I used on a few trips. Mine came with a bungee strap/hook rig so you could mount with the using the deck rigging found on most kayaks.

Since the canoe doesn't have that option, I did a little out of the box rigging and just secured it across my day pack and propped the day pack against my portage packs.

I checked the heading against my Brunton Orienteering compass to make sure nothing in packs was affecting the kayak compass.

 I liked it a lot. I didn't see it bobbing around, it's dampened and obviously your just occasionally checking it and lining  up on a distant point to reach and re-orient yourself.

On big plus in my book, is that unlike a hand held compass or GPS, you don't have to stop paddling to check your course.

Depending on conditions, especially solo, stopping forward momentum can be a real bad thing ;D

PS, Good luck on your medical problem. Getting the extra weight off will serve you well, whatever choice you make.

SunCatcher wrote on Dec 6^th, 2010 at 12:09am:

Master Angler, Been reading all under WCPP here today.  I did a six day solo from Leano and looped North and West to Mexican Hat, to Nutria and then South down to Paull and Back to Leano.  I have BAD KNEE two surguries for Minisucus and NO ACL on Right Leg.  I am 5' 9" and am almost 54 years old and weigh 220 (overweight)  I took a 50 pound pack gear and such, a 20 lb pack (food with two bear vaults in it) a thwart bag 3 lbs and the canoe, paddles etc.  I double portaged everything and sometimes triple portaged the short stuff.  I took the topo maps, the park map (which I acutally blew up my route at office max to twice the size of original) and compass and Garmin 400 GPS Topo.  This was my first solo ever, and with patience, all will be well.  Take it at YOUR pace and watch your steps and all will be fine. Denton Doc and Jimbo and Martin all helped me with various aspects and hats off to those fella's. I did get a new solo canoe a couple weeks ago a Bell RockStar in Kevlight.  Can't wait to try it out on a true solo.  Took it to the lake when it was 29 degrees out just had to try it out before I put it into hibernation.  Blessings on your planning and trip and health. SunCatcher

`

Whoa Suncatcher..... 2 tears and no ACL! Sounds like you got around all right though. This bad knee thing is a bit more common than I realized. I upgraded my insurance with the expectation of getting it fixed. Now I'm not so sure. I had expected a greater chance of success with my major concern being complications. I can bike 5 miles per day for weeks with no problem but if I run or do jumping jacks or stretch I'm in trouble. Does fine on a stepper as well.

Since I'll be solo I don't have much choice than to go at my own pace ;).

The rock star looks to be a winner. Just checked it out. I'm a Bell man anyway.

Yea DD, Jimbo, Martin and the rest on this site are swell. I count myself lucky the day I took more than 5 minutes here. I am, however, going broke. Everyone keeps posting good gear and new places to go which require new stuff (GPS etc) and I am sooooo weak! Whenever I get a new rod/reel or a new piece of camping equipment I always tell my "better than I deserve" wife something along these lines........."well, that about does it, I think I have everything". She just rolls her eyes, has an incredulous smile, shakes her head and walks away ::).

The rest of us deeply appreciate you for single-handedly keeping the economy going... [smiley=dankk2.gif]

mastertangler wrote on Dec 6^th, 2010 at 6:15pm:

SunCatcher wrote on Dec 6th, 2010 at 12:09am: Master Angler, Been reading all under WCPP here today.  I did a six day solo from Leano and looped North and West to Mexican Hat, to Nutria and then South down to Paull and Back to Leano.  I have BAD KNEE two surguries for Minisucus and NO ACL on Right Leg.  I am 5' 9" and am almost 54 years old and weigh 220 (overweight)  I took a 50 pound pack gear and such, a 20 lb pack (food with two bear vaults in it) a thwart bag 3 lbs and the canoe, paddles etc.  I double portaged everything and sometimes triple portaged the short stuff.  I took the topo maps, the park map (which I acutally blew up my route at office max to twice the size of original) and compass and Garmin 400 GPS Topo.  This was my first solo ever, and with patience, all will be well.  Take it at YOUR pace and watch your steps and all will be fine. Denton Doc and Jimbo and Martin all helped me with various aspects and hats off to those fella's. I did get a new solo canoe a couple weeks ago a Bell RockStar in Kevlight.  Can't wait to try it out on a true solo.  Took it to the lake when it was 29 degrees out just had to try it out before I put it into hibernation.  Blessings on your planning and trip and health. SunCatcher ` Whoa Suncatcher..... 2 tears and no ACL! Sounds like you got around all right though. This bad knee thing is a bit more common than I realized. I upgraded my insurance with the expectation of getting it fixed. Now I'm not so sure. I had expected a greater chance of success with my major concern being complications. I can bike 5 miles per day for weeks with no problem but if I run or do jumping jacks or stretch I'm in trouble. Does fine on a stepper as well. Since I'll be solo I don't have much choice than to go at my own pace ;). The rock star looks to be a winner. Just checked it out. I'm a Bell man anyway. Yea DD, Jimbo, Martin and the rest on this site are swell. I count myself lucky the day I took more than 5 minutes here. I am, however, going broke. Everyone keeps posting good gear and new places to go which require new stuff (GPS etc) and I am sooooo weak! Whenever I get a new rod/reel or a new piece of camping equipment I always tell my "better than I deserve" wife something along these lines........."well, that about does it, I think I have everything". She just rolls her eyes, has an incredulous smile, shakes her head and walks away ::).

MT,
I cannot run, at all!  I cycle on a real bike to get ready and for cardio and stamina.  The month or 45 days before I begin a walking regiment.
Ussually a couple mile a day or every other day fairly fast paced but not running.  I also take a knee support not a brace but a neoprene type support.  I did not have to use it last time, but could if needed.  Also ADVIL!!  I have not had an ACL on right leg that I know of since 1997 last time they scoped my knee to clean that up, but did not do ACL surgery.(should have done it then)  but now I won't as have got along this long without.  My words of wisdom are don't over do it or go to fast, enjoy your route and "smell the roses"  I over did it on the trip up 14 hours from here just to Red Lake, then started out tired and pushed myself to hard.  Then wasn't sure how far I could go, since it was my first solo and over did it the first couple days.  This led to wearing my butt out to fast.  I did do a layover day and recouped.  So what I learned is slow down to the pace that is good for you and enjoy life.
I also have a aversion to getting lighter gear more than anything.
I would like to get big pack down to 40-45 pounds and food down to 15-18 instead of 20, and a lighter canoe will also help.  I think I now have everything down to a manageable weight and will be "street smarter" on the next trip.  The best education seems to be living it.
Take care,
SunCatcher

Man I'm with you Suncatcher,
I'm actually starting NOW to get ready for my August trip and have been doing fine. My wife was saying something or other about "big strong arms" the other day in church ;D ::). That comment got her a free dinner ;) (yea I know I'm getting played like a fiddle).  Now if I can just stop shoveling the groceries in and stuffing my face I should be fine.

I too have been thinking of going lighter. I have evaluated almost every piece of gear I own. Of course one has to decide durability as well as weight. One big change on this trip will be freeze dried food for dinner. I have 4 #10 tins of Mountain house. I will eat them one at a time and will HOPEFULLY add fish with each dinner meal. Two of the selections I can boil chunks of fish and mix them right into the meal. Each Tin weighs about 1lb. Thats good right? 21 day trip and dinners are coming in at 4lbs plus maybe some oil and a little breading. The other advantage is I don't have to worry about some bruin sneaking off with my grub. I have had them hit the freeze dried stuff before and they don't like it......they love snickers bars and oatmeal w/brown sugar and raisins though :D. Anyway, it might be an option for you to consider.

Your advice to ease up a tad is probably one I should take to heart. I have noticed on long trips there is a certain amount of drive to get a good portion of the route behind you. Plus I like to paddle near shore so that adds to my distance. I get bored way out on the water and instead like the feeling of the land slipping past plus there is so much more to see both on land and in the water. The plan is to get up very early and be on the water right as the sun is coming up and ease around until a couple of hours before dark. Rinse and repeat [smiley=thumbup.gif].

Have you tried Alleve? Stuff works wonders for me. Amazing really. If I've had a tough day I'll take one before bed. A couple of times I've taken two and have awoke in the night both times with unbelievable pain in my injured knee. Not sure what that's about.

Al  

One thing I've discovered is that like drinking even when your not thirsty keeps you properly hydrated, snacking while you paddle keeps your blood sugar up and along with staying hydrated, keeps you physically and mentally alert, very important when your solo.

I keep a zip-lock bag full of trail mix, heavy on the dried fruits and nuts.
Dried fruit gives you that slow release of natural sugar that keeps your blood sugar from spiking and then crashing. I nibble often as I paddle and while portaging.

Hitting the water early, and getting the majority of your miles in early before the wind picks up will go along way toward having a good days paddle without burning yourself out. I'm not shy about taking a quick cat nap at lunch after a brisk morning paddle, does wonders for your energy level.

Unless your paddling to stay in shape, the first few days will be a strain on you, fit or not. Taking a layover day before you burn yourself out or injure yourself pressing to hard is a prudent idea.

No-one is counting how many trips it takes to cross a portage or how much you can carry. The idea is to have fun, enjoy your trip and challenge yourself enough to keep it interesting without doing something stupid ;)

Old Salt wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:44am:

The rest of us deeply appreciate you for single-handedly keeping the economy going... [smiley=dankk2.gif]

Your empathy is duly noted and filed accordingly. Now, what do you want for Christmas?

Any gift will be deeply appreciated. [smiley=dankk2.gif]

Old Salt wrote on Dec 8^th, 2010 at 2:39pm:

Any gift will be deeply appreciated. [smiley=dankk2.gif]

I tried to arrange something but it looks like your on the naughty list. We are in negotiations.....we'll see how it plays out.

Oh boy, this is going south (or should I say North) in a hurry. Looks like they want an "adjustment fee".....something to do with additional paperwork. If you could PM me your credit card # along with expiration date and three digit security code on the back of your card I should be able to resolve this.

Your prompt attention to this matter is appreciated
Best Fishes
MT

mastertangler wrote on Dec 8^th, 2010 at 2:44pm:

Old Salt wrote on Dec 8th, 2010 at 2:39pm: Any gift will be deeply appreciated. [smiley=dankk2.gif] I tried to arrange something but it looks like your on the naughty list. We are in negotiations.....we'll see how it plays out.

Obviously, a case of mistaken identity, or perhaps identity theft.

mastertangler wrote on Dec 8^th, 2010 at 3:21pm:

Oh boy, this is going south (or should I say North) in a hurry. Looks like they want an "adjustment fee".....something to do with additional paperwork. If you could PM me your credit card # along with expiration date and three digit security code on the back of your card I should be able to resolve this. Your prompt attention to this matter is appreciated Best Fishes MT

Best phishes! Who has credit these days?
OS

Looks like you might be in the clear. Somehow they got you confused with an "Old Salt" that was living under a dock in Louisiana. Not sure why the chap is on the naughty list but your good to go.

About this time of year I am fond of imitating the Santa at the dept store in the must see movie "A Christmas Story"........HO HO HO!

Merry Christmas ;)

Crap, kayak compass came today. IT'S HUGE! I could use it as an anchor! Back you go! Try, try again.

Seems tough to find a surface mounted compass I can slap on a thwart that isn't massive. Interesting, you'd think they would be a dime a dozen.

Cheap ($4.00) compass from Farm and Fleet and some double sided foam tape.  Used it for years.  Put another on my map case.

Heck ya and I bet you get around just fine. I'm trying to picture reading it on the thwart in front of me. MP where are you mounting yours? I don't rekon I could mount a compass to my map case though as my case is tucked in front of me via shock cord and is never level.

I just want to be able to glance up and see what she says. 0 frustration with things I can plan ahead on is my goal.  

How about a clip-on compass attached to bill of your cap. That way, when you look to see where you are, you can also see where you will be...

What about a simple compass ... say a bicycle handlebar compass to attach to the thwart.  Just don't ring the bell!   ;D

dd

Come on guys this is serious business here. Stop monkeying around!
;) ;D

:o Oops, sorry MT, we should have realized that a simple, low tech solution, not requiring a gazillion batteries would not meet your lofty standards. We are just not used to such high caliber folk around here.  :-*

I also failed to consider that the bill of your cap has already been dedicated to one of those clip-on LED lights. DD's suggestion has merit. The bicycle bell could double as a bear alarm.

Old Salt wrote on Dec 10^th, 2010 at 7:06pm:

DD's suggestion has merit. The bicycle bell could double as a bear alarm.

Also handy for announcing your arrival/departure at portages!  ALL ABOARD!!! ;D

I WOULD have suggested a smaller one, but they quit using a small compass as one of the prizes in Cracker Jack boxes!   ::)

On a more serious note ... Doesn't your GPS have a compass function/screen? (Mine does.)   :)

dd

You guys got it down. I try and be funny but I think I just come across as annoying.  :P

BTW, who told you I have one of those fancy clip on lights anyway? It's powered by a small prop on top of my hat ::).  If we were running together I can assure you I would have a bicycle bell thanks to your special brand of encouragement and it would go off every time I pulled into camp. Two can play the game you know ;).


My primary navigation is going to be map and compass. GPS is going to be backup. I plan on turing it on semi frequently for brief periods just to get used to working with everything in concert. I would like to come off this trip skilled with these three tools.  

I am very fortunate to have been able to get a second opinion on my damaged knee. I was able to make both appointments within 7 days of calling. Don't tell me single payer government run health care would be better! I didn't wait months or even years to see a specialist and I was able to call the shots. It's absolutely crystal clear in my mind now what a fiasco single payer would  be but I digress.

The meniscus is tore all the way through and what's done is done. Unlike the other doc this guy said he said he would be doing a dis-service to even think about repairing it as there is no way it would take and I would just end up back for another surgery. He suggested I could live with it as it's not causing any potential for arthritis or he could go in and "clip" the 10% that's tore away and smooth it down and do any scoping if need be. In and out the same day and back to walking normal in a week.

It is also my understanding that the integrity of the knee is not compromised so I should be good to go. I am kicking around having it done. No promise I would be able to do some running or kickboxing but it might be worth a shot.

I was never thinking of backing out but this certainly puts my mind at ease a bit.

Mt
My thwart is flat wood and below the gunnels so I put it on top of the thwart.  On my magic I have a 5 inch piece of ¼ ply wood fastened under the thwart which I call my dash. I have a place for pliers , those things you hold northern mouths open and my compass  + space for a couple of lures and my fish detector fastens to the bottom of it. If you have round thwart see if redrock still has the clip on compass.  They look like a plastic finger ring with a split in the bottom.  Or google  compass ring or wrist compass.
Good luck  with that knee.

MasterGadgeteer, annoyed? No. Amused? yes.

As for the knee, you are fortunate it is not causing too many problems. I had my meniscus scoped enough times that I don't have any in my right knee. That lead to my partial knee replacement because bone on bone is painful. Now I have artificial cartilage that will outlast me. My Mayo ortho doc told me that getting it scoped would lessen the pain, which it did. Go for it.

I would also consider wearing a compression knee sleave to help support & stabilize knee while portaging. You never know when you might slip...

Well, I just got in the last month my gps, Canadian Topo's for it and Martin's waypoints all loaded up. It looks pretty cool... I expect to try his Minjim route and possibly the trip up to Larus from Royd with a side trip into Irvine. It would then be fun to compare notes with Martin, Jimbo and others who ventured this way. I'll try and depend on compass and paper topo's too. But the GPS will come in handy I'm sure to keep me on track and marking points of interest... Kind of like what MT is planning on doing.

Excellente' Ben!!

Our paths won't likely cross but when are you going?

mastertangler wrote on Dec 11^th, 2010 at 11:09pm:

Excellente' Ben!! Our paths won't likely cross but when are you going?

I planned a longer trip tentitive for the second week in July. Then a guy I met through Spring Creek Outfitters connected with me and we're going in around the 4th of June. Aaaand, if things go well, I plan to try another route up there end of August. I'm guessing I'll be putting in the first two trips at Johnson Lake or Optic Lake.

nctry_Ben wrote on Dec 12^th, 2010 at 12:18am:

I'm guessing I'll be putting in the first two trips at Johnson Lake or Optic Lake.

That's one heck of a LOOOOONG portage to Optic ... Maybe Onnie would be a more timely choice.   ;D
dd

Sounds good Ben.........I think it will be an awesome time in there.

I have always like June or July for 2 reasons. The fish are usually spread out, shallow and "on" and the days are so long. I'm usually pretty methodical and I like the option of running till 9 P.M. if need be.

I will be interested to hear what you will have to say between conditions June vs. August. Water levels, bugs and fishing will likely be different. I have seen some utube videos on WCP and noticed some of the high water levels. Watch yourself if that is the case in the spring.

Are you bringing the pup? That is one fine animal.  

mastertangler wrote on Dec 12^th, 2010 at 12:50pm:

Sounds good Ben....  Are you bringing the pup? That is one fine animal.

Yep, she'll be training right along side me come spring, carring her pack empty at first and then some wieght. I don't really like leaving her with people to much, my dad took care of her the month I was gone to the Philippines. She likes to play but is pretty respectful and rarely barks in the wilderness which is funny because, at home she's always rolling her ball off the dock then barking at it until it drifts to a spot she can jump in and get it as she's hitting the water. She doesn't really know what a chain is as she is not a runner and I can leave her loose at home. She'll follow people out on the ice when they trudge out ice fishing. But everyone knows her and it's no big deal to them. She loves fishing almost as much as MT. She even caught one off our raft a couple years ago. She dove in and got it and wouldn't let go. I'm in good shape since IC trained her to collect firewood.  ;D

As for waterlevels... I hope to experiance a variety of conditions this year. Of the 27 days I was in Wilderness settings I had three partial days of rain. I'm guessing my luck will run out. I'll have to bring a waterproof map to wrap my dog in... I'm also guessing my run of warm weather will end as we're bound to have a cooler May... I can feel it. Now, I didn't experiance a single woodtick in the WCPP... I'm assuming they are there... Didn't have many in northern MN until fall when they became active again either. I have a number of final purchases to make before spring... Sleeping bag... Rain Fly (IC is going to whip me up a nice one)... and a better pair of portage/paddling boots are the main things. The Timberline is it for another year and unless money falls from my tree out back I likely won't be replacing my day pack... I eventually want to replace it with the Kondo Guide pack... we'll see... MT, the sock liners you suggested worked real good so a couple pairs will be added to my supply along with some new smart wool socks of different thicknesses. I hope to lose enough weight to have to buy new canoe pants... And I'm due for a couple new shirts... My problem with shirts is I need longer sleeves than most, some of the nicest shirts don't come in tall sizes... not like I'm tall... just long arms. Wow, I have a lot to do before spring... Yikes.

Alan, when were you thinking of putting in? And thanks for the correction DD... why was Optic in my head? Yes Onnie may be the put in in June.

Well Ben I've almost got my kit put together the way I want. Hoping this will be the best trip ever. I want to turn my attention to the GPS and the maps soon and practice manually plotting waypoints with the map tools I have acquired. I think I will manually plot the campsite #'s and mark them on my maps. I like the idea of little red dots showing campsites especially if I'm running late. I will have to add Martin and DD on my Christmas list for next year in way of thanks ;).

I thought DD had an excellent suggestion in doing some geo caching. It would be a good way for some one like me with very little GPS experience to practice. I guess it is more popular than I knew. Just go on-line and there is all kinds of stuff a man can go find.

After Christmas Railriders has a sale. I know their stuff is pricey but I don't think it can be beat for durability, comfort, and plain good practicality. I have several pairs of their pants but I suggest the weatherpants for 3 season canoeing. Tough as nails, they dry fast and they will probably outlast me.
I also like the eco mesh shirt. It has a mesh lining running the length of the arms and armpits which is great for managing heat. Again light and tough as nails. Drys super quick and doesn't seem to hold odors. I think they are 7 or 8oz. Skeets can get through but it takes them a while of poking and prodding with the shirts. They don't get through the pants very often.

But to finally answer your question, I'm probably dropping my trailer in Chicago on Aug 2 and hopefully entering the park at Lund Aug 4. Exiting at Leano probably on the 23. If I don't get into the Chicago show and I'm having a good time I might stay an extra week.  

Hoping to get this worked out the way I want so I can stop thinking about it and put it to bed and forget about it for a while. :P  

Keep in touch
Al  

 

Totally diggin on the new compass. Seems like it's perfect. I wonder how crucial it is to have it mounted on the keel line in order to maintain a bearing? I would like to mount it off to the side. Would it really make much difference?

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I don't see how being off keel line would be a problem.
I'm sure your going to set a course, focus in on distant landmark and so on, until you reach your destination.

I use my orienteering compass/map to set a heading. I use the kayak compass to verify as I paddle.

With your GPS, won't you be doing the same thing?

Compass has directions to install on keel line. Probably mean a larger vessel although this is advertised as a kayak compass. I can't imagine a foot or two off keel line would have any impact and feel silly for even posting the question.

I intend to use GPS sparingly. Instead I want to set bearings and follow compass headings. Map and compass work with GPS back up if I get into a jam.

mastertangler wrote on Dec 13^th, 2010 at 8:06pm:

Compass has directions to install on keel line. Probably mean a larger vessel although this is advertised as a kayak compass. I can't imagine a foot or two off keel line would have any impact and feel silly for even posting the question.

Do you plan on the compass to be more or less permanently mounted to your canoe?  If so, why not just silicone it to the floor of your canoe on the center line a few feet in front of you?  Just a thought!

dd

Naw, I'll pop it on the thwart so it's easy to look at. But thanks, I always appreciate your insight DD.

I don't know what it looks like, but would it be possible if you don't look at it head on the reading won't be accurate? Kind of like an old car we had... When going 55 it looked like about 70 from the passenger seat.

Maybe if I mount it off the keel line and then look at it at on an angle, preferably with my head cocked and my tongue sticking out of the corner of my mouth (drool cup in place of course), I'll be right on the money. ;D

Dont forget to mutter under your breath, slow down your going to fast and your heading to fur to the east :o

Why not mount it directly in front of you on the thwart? :-/ It probably has to do with the angle of perception in relation to the angle of declination... It may void the warranty if improperly installed.

On the thwart, directly in front of me I have a shockcord running the length of it and here is where I put my primary navigation tool, my map (enclosed in a case of course). This method has served me extremely well. Easy to re-position, easy to read, easy to yank out and biner to a portage pack on walks and you don't have to worry about the wind taking it away. That will stay.

On either end I had wanted to place the GPS (in its heavier than hoped for RAM mount) and the compass off to the other side. I am also keen to have the depth finder mounted more or less permanently. All this adds up to weight and complexity. I was looking at that scenario with an evil eye at first but then realized I don't mind the least bit carrying needed items on my belt and rather like the ease of access. "Thwart clutter" is much the same I suppose. Besides, my obsession with shaving 5 or 10 lbs from my kit is probably the wrong focus. How about dropping 20 lbs from my personage :P. Or perhaps changing 20lbs of "stored energy" to muscle moving mass ability. So far so good.

The depth finder is the logical thing to leave behind but since my intention is to troll around the park and more or less run a line continually when practical the depth finder would be critical in doing that effectively. The last thing I want is to be continually hung up, can't make miles that way.

I can picture the GPS, map and compass mounted on the thwart in front but what I am having some perplexity imagining is where the depth finder will go and still be easily read. Since I will be looking at it probably 95% more than the GPS it should probably have a more prominent position. Add in that the RAM mount is very versatile (I could likely mount it Underneath the thwart).

I guess I will worry about that in the spring when I can get my hands on the boat. Lot's of fun!  :)    

mastertangler wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 12:34pm:

... I guess I will worry about that in the spring when I can get my hands on the boat. Lot's of fun!  :)

To cold down there to go outside and work on it?  ;D Only a wimpy -15 here this morning. I was expecting worse.

Boats in Michigan. It's gonna be in the 20's here in Florida tonight. Last year was freezing down here to.

Should I take this opportunity to playfully mock global warming?.........oppps I forgot, we are going to call it "climate change" so if it's cold or hot it's still our fault. And yea, I'm for less gunk in the air and in the water.  

Always interesting to hear the way others handle practical, everyday, canoe issues.

Once I start paddling for the day, the map case stays INSIDE the canoe.  Like you, I mount to the thwart, but use either velcro straps or dealee-bobs.  I anchor a corner of my map case to my foot rail when portaging so it doesn't fall in front of my face when the canoe is upside down.  I'll do both corners if there are other floppy items attached to the thwart (e.g., sunglasses on a neck strap).

As far as the GPS and depth finder ... they are both attached to the foot rail, one just a little on each side of the center line.  It is not uncommon for both to stay in the boat overnight.  In this positon, they are out of the way when portaging (can't snag them) and they are below the gunwale line when the canoe is parked (unside down) overnight.  (I used a bicycle mount for the GPS and a electrical conduit clamp for the depth finder attachment.  The way I attached the conduit clamp to the depth finder allows the face to rotate fore and aft as well as port/starboard so I don't have to fight sun reflection.)

dd

At the risk of sounding contentious (and I despise folk who are contentious just for its own sake) I will advocate that my map viewing system is superior ;).

Let me see if I have your situation correct. (If not please advise and I may change my views accordingly) Tied off on the corners and hanging more or less vertically?

Your eyes have to focus down where mine are more direct as the relevant info on my map is often at or above my thwart line. A subtle but important distinction IMO. Especially since I am continually looking from map to shore. Just a glance is all that is required.......not even a slight tilt of the head.

The angle of viewing can be changed with my system just by adjusting its position in relation to the shock cord. A simple shove to or fro and I can achieve any viewing angle I desire at any given moment. Keep in mind the case adds rigidity. It never actually folds over on itself.

My method is both faster and more convenient. Time to change maps? Just grab the case and re-load. Want a real close look? Again just grab it and plop it in your face. I'm always looking at the map in camp.......just grab and go. On portages it is as simple as it gets to clip my case to a d ring on my pack and off I go. Sort of nice to be able to stand around at the end of the portage and have it in your hand and up close as well. Adjustments that are needed are often noted and performed then.

Well, have I convinced you? ;D

I know we all have our methods that work for us. I was speaking to those who perhaps are not satisfied with their map set-ups as much as I was to you Mr. DD  :-*.

I would like to see your set-up one day (Hint, Hint) Sounds interesting.

MT-

I guess my map case may be more flexible than your.  When I tried the bungee approach, the weight of the case pulled it in from both sides until it was beginning to fold in the middle.  The dealee-bobs have enough "bite" to solve that problem for me.  I even played around with one of those retractable key-chain things a bit, but decided against that solution ... maybe "overthinking" the problem.

My post was more aimed at a solution for GPS/Depth finder rigging.  On traveling days, I'll just tilt the depth finder screen back so the bottom half of the map case rests on top of it at ~ 45 degree angle.  I've had no issues with being able to see the map, unless the case gets a little rain on it ... then I'll sometimes have to wipe it off to see it more clearly.  (Anyone tried any Rain-X on their map case?)

Besides, I print my own maps for my trips so I can produce them in "Big Chief" size.  I also tend to tweak up the contrast colors between land and water a bit so shore line is a bit easier to distinguish.   ;D

dd

"upon further review" there should be a few things I should make mention of. My map case is of the smaller variety measuring some 15"x15". Stiffer than most larger cases. Also my pro pack snugs right up against my forward thwart so the case has a nice place for a bit of support behind it.

I am of mixed feelings about the mounting of the GPS and depth finder. I have never had a GPS with me and my depth finder was of the portable variety and it sat at the bottom of the boat. I want to ditch the housing and mount it more or less permanently.

For viewing reasons I would prefer to have it mounted at or above the thwart but you have a valid point about having it recessed below the gunnels to avoid any hangups with limbs. The nice thing about the RAM mount is that it is quickly infinitely and securely adjustable. The thought of an additional RAM mount could be a solution but it pops another 3/4 lb on. :'(  Maybe I should stop being a woos about it and slap it on there.

I'm sure the old time trippers are laughing right now as I'm worried about putting a few extra pounds on a 35lb boat when they regularly portage a 70lb boat.  ::)

DentonDoc wrote on Dec 14^th, 2010 at 11:00pm:

MT-  (Anyone tried any Rain-X on their map case?) dd

Does it rain up there?  ;D

I think your thwart is closer to you that mine is to me in my Encounter. I'm thinking of making a mount off my seat pedestal for my gps. Maybe if I lose enough weight I can get a prism like you guys. Or maybe put in a thwart closer to the seat... they don't weigh much.

nctry_Ben wrote on Dec 15^th, 2010 at 12:54am:

DentonDoc wrote on Dec 14th, 2010 at 11:00pm: MT-  (Anyone tried any Rain-X on their map case?) dd Does it rain up there?  ;D

NOW YOUV'E WENT AND DONE IT!! >:(..................Let me know what days your going so I can make sure not to be there ;) ;D

Ben I run a Bell Merlin and am pleased as punch with it. I would like to paddle a prism just for kicks, they look to be a good ride.

What is your gunnel material? I opted for metal because it is easier to machine. If so you might consider a Ram mount bolted right to your gunnel. I have two side mounts for a rod holder bolted right onto my gunnels.

All this talk has caused me to re-evaluate how to mount the GPS and depth finder. Using the Ram mount underneath instead of on top the thwart seems like the obvious way to go, all things considered. The mount itself not as heavy as I remembered. The mount and garmin 60csx goes about 1 lb. I really like the adjustability that the Ram mount is able to achieve. Maybe that could be a solution for you. They have them in just about every configuration to hold almost anything.

Just got done reading Mike Kinzingers account of his 2010 trip into WCP on canoestories.com.

Of particular interest to me was his description of his traverse of the Haggert river. While he doesn't make mention of it, it sounds quite beautiful. What he does make mention of is the hairy portage landings. Evidently during high water they are a trifle close to the action.

I will have to add a new wrinkle to my canoeing skills. And that would be jumping out of the boat and grabbing the bank before catastrophe strikes. I haven't tried that before.......never had a need. Might as well practice crawling out via the bow to. All stuff I've never done.

I have never secured my stuff inside my boat either. I'm wondering if the more experienced trippers lash stuff down or let them float out after a capsize when in a more wilderness setting? I'm inclined to secure my loads after reading this. Evidently there is very little room for error during high water conditions on the Haggert. Sounds exciting though.....NO SCREWUPS........CAPICHE?? (might as well start practicing my mantra now  ;) )

mastertangler wrote on Dec 27^th, 2010 at 12:28am:

I will have to add a new wrinkle to my canoeing skills. And that would be jumping out of the boat and grabbing the bank before catastrophe strikes. I haven't tried that before.......never had a need. Might as well practice crawling out via the bow to. All stuff I've never done.

H E L L O!  I DIDN'T get a pulled muscle in my back on a WCP solo last season from STEPPING out of my canoe in a non-threatening scenario.  Let's just say that running the Quetico Falls Chain in high water was good practice for my WCP trip and I still managed to find a few challenges in WCP.


Quote:

I have never secured my stuff inside my boat either. I'm wondering if the more experienced trippers lash stuff down or let them float out after a capsize when in a more wilderness setting? I'm inclined to secure my loads after reading this. Evidently there is very little room for error during high water conditions on the Haggert. Sounds exciting though.....NO SCREWUPS........CAPICHE?? (might as well start practicing my mantra now  ;) )

Not lashing your stuff in your canoe?  Do you REALLY love swimming after your gear.  And YES, I DO secure my gear ... carabiners make for reasonably fast connections to your boat or other packs that are secure to the boat.

Do you carry a bailer (that you can get to while you are in your seat)?

dd

mastertangler wrote on Dec 27^th, 2010 at 12:28am:

Just got done reading Mike Kinzingers account of his 2010 trip into WCP on canoestories.com.... What he does make mention of is the hairy portage landings. Evidently during high water they are a trifle close to the action..... I have never secured my stuff inside my boat either. I'm wondering if the more experienced trippers lash stuff down or let them float out after a capsize when in a more wilderness setting? I'm inclined to secure my loads after reading this. Evidently there is very little room for error during high water conditions on the Haggert. Sounds exciting though.....NO SCREWUPS........CAPICHE?? (might as well start practicing my mantra now  ;) )

MT -

They've had some EXCEPTIONALLY high water in WCP over the past couple seasons.  I'm not sure I'd try some of those Mike Kinziger escapades SOLO in the first place; certainly IF I did, I'd make every effort to last down my gear.

Mostly these days I'm doing lake-oriented trips so I don't worry about lashing down too much unless the water is really churning.  My Prism has a Cooke Custom Sewing spray skirt cover which serves much of the purpose of lashing down.  Even then I'd lash my gear in whitewater conditions.

Jimbo   8-)

I'm thinkin' that MT has not seen this years snowpack, 3 1/2' (feet) in my yard. More up north. Might make for an interesting Spring and Summer. It is still December, and we typically add feet more in Jan-Mar. I'm very thankful for my big blower. 8-)

Yikes! Glad I'm planning going in August and not June :) [smiley=thumbup.gif].

mastertangler wrote on Dec 27^th, 2010 at 3:18pm:

Yikes! Glad I'm planning going in August and not June :) [smiley=thumbup.gif].

I think June will be an interesting month. I plan on doing the Minjim route paddling a circle route and entering the actual Minjim route from
Royd. I think the extra water will be a good thing through the "Nile" section and possibly other places. I'm going back I hope in July and will be interested to see the difference in waterlevels. The boot sucking portages will be the worst.

I haven't been very good at lashing my gear in on lake travel. But in the WCPP the risks are so much greater. I never heard of a ditch kit before this year and feel that is a no brainer too. There was discussion on another site also on this. I wonder sometimes what world I've been living in. I got to thinking my way of lashing when I do lash my stuff in is flawed... I'm thinking of drilling holes in my gunnels and making loops where I can whip up a quick sort of net to hold my stuff in. I know we have an actual net sort of made for that on our rescue sled for our fire dept. The sled is pulled behind our snowmobile for remote rescues and the net is sort of thin bungee material. My packs stick up to high for a cover I think. I do usually tie in my portage yoke. Couldn't imagine losing that on a trip. Up there there is no room for error, so my next few months are going to be spent preplanning these important aspects. How many people go without even dry run putting packs in canoes to see how they fit? I made that mistake a couple years ago. We had three people in a Winonah Minn 3. It was a May trip and we packed heavy, in my opinion. My duluth pack ended up with a broken buckle from jamming the packs in a tight space. I think we'd have been much better off with a tandem and a solo with that much gear.  

My thinking for June in WCP with consecutive years of wet weather would be to be ready for the winged menace. I bet the bugs might be a little tough.

That high water probably would be a benefit on your route though Ben.
The netting might be a hassle to unhook and hook at portage landings though. If your a chicken like me and not apt to paddle in the breakers away from shore you might get by not tying in at all. I'm thinking a biner clipped into a strap around a thwart sort of thing for on the river. I think my bags will float for the most part anyway and I just don't want them going for a ride down the river. My thinking is a leash of sorts. Maybe an eyebolt through my railing would be better. Sure wouldn't want a damaged thwart.

If I ever move up to being a white water man I would have to follow suit with Jimbo and get a spray cover. The Bloodvein to Winnipeg sounds like a lot of fun to me.

I lash my gear in all the time, lake/river in any conditions. Last thing a solo paddler needs is to be chasing after or losing gear after you dump.

Many ways to secure your gear from mild to wild. I find a simple line run from bow to center of my seat with carabiners clipped to pack straps will keep packs in in most situations other than swift whitewater.
When you get your swamped canoe into water you can stand in, it's easy to un-clip packs and pull from under line.

I would practice some landing skills before you hit high water/heavy current conditions. I have a painter line for bow and stern, coiled on left/right of my seat. You can use a Velcro strap or some other one hand quick release device to secure while paddling/portaging.

Make it from rope that FLOATS,  and has no loops or knots that can snag and overturn canoe if you lose hold of your line.

I'm sure you know this, but for any Newbies, it might be worth repeating.  Heading into a current, you can land bow first or better yet, sideways to current/bank. Step out from canoe with bowline in hand and secure it after pulling bow up if possible. If you can't, secure bowline and stern line. This will keep the current from swinging the stern out if you can't land on shore.

Current at your back is a little more tricky, and I bet has dumped more canoes than many will care to admit.
Best bet is to ease as close to shore as you can, pass by the landing, and then back paddle into landing and step out quickly with stern-line. Tie it off if possible, or pull stern up onto secure landing. You can tie off stern and then bow, if your finding yourself unloading on steep bank/rock.

Whatever you do, don't run your bow into landing with a strong current at your back :'( Once you elevate bow, the current will swing the stern out and over you go. Loose gear and canoe are heading down stream with you either in the water, or running along the bank cursing your stupidity ;D

Bad enough with a tandem canoe/partner or group, but potentially fatal and trip ending when traveling solo.

ST
Good advice. Thank you for sharing it. [smiley=thumbup.gif]

I am wondering about the painters trailing from the bow and stern to your seat though. I have mine coiled and secured to the handpulls. Please understand I am not insinuating what's right or wrong as I am truly in need of instruction as I am mostly self taught by trial and error and what I have read in books.

Aren't you concerned that the lines could tangle in some gear at the worst possible moment :question  

[edit]Aren't you concerned that the lines could tangle in some gear at the worst possible moment [/edit]

After I load my canoe, I carefully lay the bow/stern lines on top of the packs keeping them as taut as possible. Yes, there's always that chance they may get tangled if you have a lot of miscellaneous gear mounted, but tied to the bow/stern pulls you have zero chance of getting to them when you need them most.

Paddling open water I sometimes tie them off to bow/stern pulls, but in rivers/streams I want them readily accessible. The reason you use floating rope with no knots or loops in loose end is that if the rope sinks and hangs up on a submerged rock/branch, your lines can snag and turn you over.

I suppose if you were really worried about them snagging on gear, you could route them under gunnel's securing them with a small Velcro loop, or some type of little clip, enough to keep them in place but light enough you don't tip canoe when you deploy them.

I've never had a problem just leaving them laying taut on tops of packs, but I don't hang gear off my packs, so you should plan accordingly.

Shoot, I'm going to have to think about this for a while. I have all kinds of stuff a rope could get tangled on.

Reels, GPS, depth finder, sandals and so on. I see the advantage but wonder if the cure might end up being worse than the disease.

I'll take a peek after I get a hold of the boat and load up. I like the idea of being able to jump out rope in hand especially if you slip and have to recover yourself. A possible, even likely event given a little growth on the rocks. Easy to picture the boat, minus it's operator, continuing its sightseeing tour.

That........would be a sinking feeling................... ::) ::) ::)
       

Ok, Many of you have probably noticed I'm not shy about giving my opinion on things I feel might be beneficial to others. By the same token I'm not above asking for help on things I am woefully inadequate on and am the first to admit it.

I have loaded the Garmin topo program last night and am still becoming familiar with it. Little by little I'll get there. What I haven't tried yet is taking the email info I have received and applying it. I have never done anything with email other than read it or forward it. Just curious as to a general direction and what I'm trying to do? I haven't even tried anything yet but it might be nice to know WHAT I'm trying to do before I attempt it.

Hopefully, the data you are talking about in conjunction to your e-mail is in the form of attachment ... a file.

If that is the case, you want to save the file (files) to your computer's hard drive (disc).  Depending on your e-mail system, if you click your mouse on the name of the file you will get a list of choices of what you want to do with the file.  (In some systems, this is a right-button mouse click.  You may also have to indicated that you wish to allow the download (file saving) before you can proceed further.  This process is a function of your virus protection software and/or firewall.)  Select the "Save As" option and your computer will respond with a window indicating where it is about to save the material and its file name.  These default choices (location and name) may be OK with you, but I find it desirable to keep mapping files mostly in the same general locations  (and not necessarily "My Documents").  It is generally NOT a good idea to change the file name extension (the part following the period in the full file name, as this is often used by software as a "recognition symbol".)  In any case, once the file is saved, you can then go to your Garmin Mapsource and open the file.  If it is a compatible file, then it will be loaded (you may notice changes to the content of whatever was previously in the left window of your screen, where current "resources" are listed.  However, you may not see them on the map (unless the last map viewed was for the same general area as the positions indicated by the new data).  The quickest way to get all parts on the "same page" is to click on one of the items in your left-window and then ask the software to show that location on the map.  (One drawback of the software here, in my opinion, is that it will zoom to a level that magnifies that location ... which means you'll need to zoom back out to get a meaningful perspective).

Let me now how this works and then we'll talk about something more complicated.  Also, I'm doing this off the top of my head and I could have omitted something important.

dd

These here computer type gadjets are a might bit weird (that's my hillbilly lingo.....don't take offense, I definitely qualify on my Dads side).

Well, without a clue as to what I was doing I downloaded the file, then clicked on it, the basecamp icon started jumping in my dock and bingo it's all there. All I can say is WOW! OK, I'll play around for a week or two and see where I get. DD, I have a Mac so there is no left click right click for me. This ought to be fun :).

DD,
Rather than pose these questions privately I am hoping the time you are taking may benefit others as well. And I do thank you for your time BTW. It will be my intention to be a blessing back to you some day.

I have received Martins list of portages, campsites and points of interest. The list automatically appeared in my Basecamp list column as did all the icons on the map itself.

I have spent the last hour trying to gain control of the list. What I would like to do is to remove the icons from the map and deal with them piecemeal or one at a time. Adding and removing them as I see fit. Certainly that must be possible, correct :question.  

And one more question I have. Is Basecamp and Mapsource the same type of program. What you'd use to transfer data from computer to gps? One thing I did was get rid of Basecamp and load everything into Mapsource. Then too I realized I had to be careful or somethings are limited as to how many you can load... Such as tracks. I can only load twenty at a time. Martin has quite a few. The first time I loaded the first twenty on the list thinking I'd get em all. Then I had to manually delete each one. It's time consuming as you learn about these things.

mastertangler wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 2:53am:

I have spent the last hour trying to gain control of the list. What I would like to do is to remove the icons from the map and deal with them piecemeal or one at a time. Adding and removing them as I see fit. Certainly that must be possible, correct :question.

My strategy is something along the lines of this:

I keep what I call my Master list ... a list of everything I can find about an area or park.  Then, when I am mapping out an area that represents my trip plans, I make another file by copying and pasting the "important" things to a new file.  

There are two ways to select items to be copied:  (a) select items in the left window or (b) select items directly from the map.  This process is much quicker if you select groups of items (which can be done on a Windows based system by holding down the SHIFT key while select items ... its a "group" select.  I'm not sure how you'd do this on an Apple ... been decades since I've played with one).

Then you use the Edit menu to copy the selected items.  From here, you open a new file and paste (again using the Edit feature) the selected items to it.  Saving this file at this stage has two advantages.  You can come back to it later or you can continue the copy/paste series by returning to the "master," selecting more items and then re-opening (and pasting) additional selections.  

BTW:  I've created custom icons, smaller than those typically assigned to the waypoints by Mapsource, to reduce screen clutter on my GPS.  But, that's another lesson.

dd

Yo DD
So far it appears the only way to clear the map is to engage a new "list", which I have done. There may not be an option to hide an item on the map without removing or deleting it from the list. I can work around it. With the Mac it is click and drag to add info to a list or you can copy and paste. Still monkeying around.

I would very much be interested in smaller icons as these seem a bit bulky to me. I have noticed several empty boxes in the basecamp icon selection and am wondering if these are for custom icons. Quite likely.

mastertangler wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 3:28pm:

Yo DD So far it appears the only way to clear the map is to engage a new "list", which I have done. There may not be an option to hide an item on the map without removing or deleting it from the list. I can work around it. With the Mac it is click and drag to add info to a list or you can copy and paste. Still monkeying around. I would very much be interested in smaller icons as these seem a bit bulky to me. I have noticed several empty boxes in the basecamp icon selection and am wondering if these are for custom icons. Quite likely.

One way of "clearing" waypoints (and thus their icons) from the screen is to create a series of categories into which waypoints are placed.  There are over a dozen generic categories that you can code to be whatever you want.  To view the current list of categories, select EDIT from the menu and PREFERENCES from the pop-up list.  Then look for the Waypoint Categories tab.  You might choose to make the categories something like campsites, portages, pictographs, POI's, wildlife sightings, etc.  In other words, whatever set of categories may sense to you.  Then you can change the waypoint property of individual waypoints to one of the created categories.  Once that's done, you can select a specific category to be displayed (category selection toward the top of the left panel).

To scale down the icons, you can create custom icons (or perhaps find some you can download from the internet).  You should be thinking of a size that is 16 X 16 pixels to get to the "small" category.  I have some that are 6 X 6.  The next step is to find where the Custom Icons have been stored on your computer when you loaded the software.  For a Windows based system this is generally under My Documents in the My Garmin folder.  The last step is to replace the pre-existing custom icons (numbered from 000 - 007 in the Custom Waypoint Symbols folder with your own.  If the new symbol is not already in bmp file format, they should be converted to that format with a graphic editor program.  Once you've done that, you will see the new icons appear at the bottom of the available icons list when you create a new waypoint.  To change an existing icon, you simply change its icon property.

BTW:  You can change the properties (category, icon) of several icons at the same time if you select a group of waypoints and then edit the waypoint property of that group.  (For a Windows based system, you can select an item by clicking on it, a contiguous group by pressing the SHIFT key and dragging over a set of waypoints, or non-contiguous items by pressing the CTRL key and then making a series of individual selections.)

For Petes sake, is there really 14 pages concerning my trip?! What the heck could we of been talking about? Wintertime.............it can be boring at times I suppose.

Here I sit in Virginia MN at a super 8. Been driving 14 hours from Detroit. I had planned on driving the rest of the way tonight (yea right) so I could go in a day early. Harlan mentioned that if I could get there by 8 A.M. I could get a lift. But so much for the plans of mice and men. Harlan called me about 7 PM and informed me that a fire on Murdock would prevent me from entering tomorrow. Rats!

Oh well, probably for the better. I could use the rest. I had hoped to do a month and had, in fact, already packed for a month but I ended up with a wee bit of work to do and thought about cancelling the whole thing. Instead I have shortened the entire venture to 16 days. I couldn't deal with changing the trip and am still planning on the whole enchilada. It's sort of like a romance that you know might end badly but you can't help yourself.

Back is still not right and the knee is untested but I'm still committed to getting dropped off with no option for retreat. It sounds nutty I know. Especially now that I have halved my time frame and without having ever set foot in the place. My Ace in the whole was that I had a month. Now that's off the table. The trip has suddenly become a challenging adventure.............just what the doctor ordered.

Dang MT, I was in Virginia earlier today. We could have met up for supper. I should have called. If your still in Virginia for lunch I'm doing lunch in Virginia with my WCPP paddling partner from June.

Not sure if he can read this but Lund Lake access is not closed to entry until the fire is under control

Solotrip wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2011 at 3:30pm:

Not sure if he can read this but Lund Lake access is not closed to entry until the fire is under control

I think this should read "NOW closed" (see   (You need to Login or Register on Solotripping.com)



dd

So, just for curiosity's sake, what are his options when he gets where he's aiming?

db wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2011 at 4:48pm:

So, just for curiosity's sake, what are his options when he gets where he's aiming?

The area impacted by closing the Lund Lake EP and the area of the fire is limited to the northeast quadrant of the park, more or less.  Since MT is apparently heading to Red Lake (jump off point for east-side entries), he still has access to (from west to east on the same road) Leano Lake, Onnie Lake and Johnston Lake.  These serve the southern, central and eastern part of the park.

Optionally, much of WCPP is currently served by a wide selection of fly-in options.  This means that he could still reach the intended western section of his route (perhaps Carroll Lake) and paddle south and then east back to his original take-out point at Leano Lake.

dd

I talked to MT this morning. It sounded like they just needed today to do some air drops in the Murdock Lake area. But yes, he should think about just doing a Leano Loop or something. He'd headed up to Red Lake and I'm sure Harlan went through some options for him.

Just read the Park Notice on the area closed or recommended no canoe travel. It's all the area's I'd planned to be. Glad now I changed my plans... WCPP will have to wait til next year. Goin' into the BW for twenty days on Tuesday.

Oh boy..............
What a trip. 2 days of driving one way, 8 hours of paddling, one dislocated knee, one helicopter ride and one floatplane ride and then another 2 day ride home.

That is my trip in a nutshell. Go ahead and pile it on. Nobody can call me anything that I haven't already called myself. And I deserve every bit of it. A bit arrogant and stubborn I decieved myself by thinking that because I have always done it in the past I could darn well do it again.

On the fourth portage I went to put my pack on and since it was 1k I decided to double to save time since it was getting late. Down I went. Fortunately there was a little beach I could crawl to and set up camp for the night. This was worse than any other time as it wouldn't go back in place. 4 hours later I decided to press the issue and straightened the leg and it popped back in place under considerable pain. At least it was back in place and I would likely be able to at least walk.

I tossed things around in my mind that night. I might could wait a week or so and perhaps I could get out especially if I could find someone who would help but my truck was no longer at my E.P.. (Yes, another dopey decision). That was my determinate factor in deciding to use the spot S.O.S.. Believe it or not I never had even contemplated having to use it. In other words I didn't do what I did with the understanding that the spot would bail me out. The concept that I wouldn't make it around was a totally foreign thought that never really occurred to me.

I activated the SOS at about 7 A.M.. About 3 hours later I also sent the "send help" message to my wife. Little did I realize they had already called her. I also failed to understand that the spot would continue to send her emails. She recieved 9 emails although I had sent only 1. Naturally she thought the worst. AHHHHH!!

The helicopter pilot and the 2 OPP search and rescue guys were about as cool as they come. Guys you had immediate confidence in. The pilot was able to land in the bit of beach and they dropped out and asked if I needed any painkillers. "No" I responded,"Maybe just a swift kick in the rear..........."Well, there are 3 of us and we could do a good job of it if it's what you really want" quipped one of the OPP. These guys were first class, I can't really express how impressed I was with them. We gathered up my gear and loaded in the chopper with the troubling and notable exception of my boat. They let me ride in the front and it was an incredible ride back to Red Lake.

Harlan picked me up at the OPP headquarters and facilitated what I thought to be a reasonable rate to charter a floatplane to go and retrieve my canoe. My first ride in a floatplane was an awesome experience.

I had no business going. I said as much to the search and rescue folk but they said don't worry about it as they were glad to have something different to do. It is what they are trained to do and I suppose my extraction could be looked at as training of sorts. On the other hand my stupidity had the potential to put their well being in jeopardy as who knows what can go wrong on a resue. That concept does not elude me. I suppose I deserved to hang out on that sandbar for a week or two but I had a way out and took it after condsidering my options.

Back to Florida tomorrow and then to the orthopedic guy. I just know I don't want to hear replacement. That would be a bummer.

That's really too bad.  But it was good that you had a spot and were in a place where rescue could be effected.  Glad you made it out safe. 

Where were you when you went down?  My estimation is that some of the portages in WCP are a bit tricker than what I've run across in the Q.

If replacement is what is called for, go for it!  My paddling partner had a knee replacement this off season.  After our WCP trip he said it felt better than it had for at least the last 5 years.  (So, I got my payback from last year.  I hauled some of his gear and we did a lot of tripple portaging last year.  This year, he got to haul some of my gear on the last couple of portages.).

dd

Hey, you tried MT... Ya got a cool Helicopter ride and a float plane ride. Being a First Responder myself I know those guys were probably happy to have a call to go to. You train and train, but it's the real life stuff that builds your confidence. Not to many people get into rescueing and complain when they have to do it. As far as your knee... straightening it out is how we were trained to put it back in place, so you did good there. Usually your supposed to feel relief, but it sounded like it was worse. Get it fixed! Now you have to go back to WCPP... Get it fixed and get on back up there. You'll do it.

What a bummer :'(
Thankfully you made it out okay and other than the "mental" a** kicking", your ready to do what it takes to get back at it again.
Sometimes eating " Humble Pie" can be a good thing ;)
We all make mistakes, learning from them is what's important.
Good to know the Park staff and 1st responders are first rate and have a serious sense of humor to boot.
I'm sure your future posts on issues regarding any of the things you " mis-judged" will prove valuable to others.
Nothing beats knowledge that comes from adversity.

some interesting stuff to talk about..............
I could tell from the start that my motive for going was wrong. I set out with a rather grim determination that my route was an obstacle to overcome rather than a time set aside for enjoyment.

1/2 way through my first and only day my back started reminding me it wasn't very happy and that only added to my misgivings about the whole venture. The wondering when it would rebel from the constant paddle stroking ensued. That immediately stole some of my joy. That's not to say I wouldn't of eventually settled in but I look back to see that I had hoped to recreate the feeling I had when I did the hunters Island route my first time in the Q.

This has caused a serious shift in my thinking. In the future I will be more introspective about reconciling goals and desires. I will spend more time evaluating my motives and how to acheive a desirable outcome. For example my reduced time frame would of left precious little time to fish. In all probability I overestimated my capabilities to cover ground AND fish. I want it all but everyone knows you can't have it all. Looking back a shorter trip based on fishing and little short moves would of fit the bill considering my newly acquired responsibilities on the homefront (work).

Trouble is, this is not a new mistake on my part and I have oft repeated it. Plan a big trip, cover a lot of ground and lug a lot of fishing stuff that I don't have time to use :P. Perhaps I finally learned my lesson!?!

Interesting indeed.
I think when your a young man, you tend to think/act in full on I want it now mode. I remember thinking when 30 was "old". You think better to die young living to the fullest, than get old and have regrets.

That may of been a reasonable idea back when the life expectancy wasn't what it is today. Now 40 assuming you've taken reasonable care of yourself is the new 30 or less.
That really adds to the meaning of life is a marathon, not a sprint ;)

My goal like I suspect many here is too extend my quality of life and well as my outdoor interests as long as possible.
That means forgetting the idea of going hard or going  home, at least part of the time.
Nothing the matter with scaling back and taking time to enjoy what you love to the fullest.
A shorter trip, more time for fishing and maybe 3x portaging at least in the initial day of your trip, " might" of made a difference?
Hopefully when you've recovered/rehabilitated, your lesson will stick,this time ;D
Rest assured, your buddies here will remind you of your comment if/when your eyes get bigger than your stomach :-?

Quote:

some interesting stuff to talk about.............. I could tell from the start that my motive for going was wrong. I set out with a rather grim determination that my route was an obstacle to overcome rather than a time set aside for enjoyment.

If you want to beat yourself up about it be my guest. But, at the same time, remember that shit happens and when push came to shove, you were able to affect your own rescue w/o putting out anyone who was simply out there enjoying their own vacation. That's the reason I like hearing about tough times in trip reports. It makes people think about what COULD happen.

I do have a couple questions:
Did the chopper flight cost you?
You went back to get your boat?


Quote:

On the fourth portage I went to put my pack on and since it was 1k I decided to double to save time since it was getting late. Down I went.

What does double mean in that context?

Here's the big question:

Quote:

In other words I didn't do what I did with the understanding that the spot would bail me out.

Quote:

I had no business going. I said as much to the search and rescue folk but they said don't worry about it as they were glad to have something different to do. It is what they are trained to do and I suppose my extraction could be looked at as training of sorts. On the other hand my stupidity had the potential to put their well being in jeopardy as who knows what can go wrong on a resue. That concept does not elude me.

No business? So, I gotta ask. In retrospect, did you take the spot as a crutch or a fancy new toy and if you didn't it what if anything do you think may have occurred differently?

I don't know the routes or logistics but it coulda been worse. At one point I was afraid you end up being a crispy critter. ;D

MT -

Just as Dorothy told Toto that they "weren't in Kansas anymore," going through parts of WCP ain't like being in Quetico anymore, either.  Your smart move was to carry that SPOT Messenger.  My three-person Irvine Lake bushwhack party might well have been approaching a SPOT Messenger moment during OUR 2010 WCP adventure (someday Stu & the BWJ will get around to actually publishing the story of our mishap!).  Alas, we'll never know as: a) serendipity kicked in before we truly screwed ourselves over, and b) we didn't bring a SPOT Messenger along in the first place.

Your story is important: there but for the grace of God, go I.

At a very basic level - that of NEEDING help when it ain't around - your having the good sense to carry that tool saved a bad situation from becoming a horrible one.  As for me, I can't count on "luck" to bail me out every time I bite off more than I can chew... especially as I become an old fart while my appetite for northern adventure only seems to grow.  Your story may seal the deal (especially if my wife reads it!) for my Xmas Wish List.  It will likely include a SPOT Messenger this year.

Thanks for sharing your experience & good luck with the rehab.

Jimbo   8-)

DB the rescue was free. I had, however, purchased optional evac insurance as it was only $12 additional along with the SPOT basic plan. The helicopter pilot, when asked, informed me that the chopper was $4.5 million. They said they had an uptick in rescues since the introduction of the SPOT (2 this year). The last guy had snapped his paddle and had lost his spare and had been blown into a swamp and activated his.

My intent with the SPOT was to give my wife peace of mind that I was fine. Perhaps in the back of my mind it could of been a crutch of sorts but I likely would of went in without it. So complete was my self deception that I disregarded the rather serious injury that happened only a month prior. I had set up and tore down 4 shows in that interval and had just come off an 11 day trip feeling good (except for the immediate aftermath when some celebratory horsing around put me down). Some folk seen this coming as KF took the liberty to PM me to bluntly suggest that I "wasn't ready". I replied with my usual bravado (Woodland Caribou is after all a "park" is it not  ;) ).

I found it surprising that the chopper and the floatplane that I chartered to retrieve my boat were both equipped with a SPOT. That tells me a lot about their reliability.

In retrospect I failed to use the SPOT to its full capabilities. I could of used the pre-set text messaging mode to better effect. A simple "send floatplane" message to my wife would of been the ticket. 

 

I have used a SPOT for the last 4 or 5 years.  I always have a dedicated SPOT watcher.  I choose someone who is tech savvy.  If I push the non-emergency help button it means I am ok but need help getting out of the park and I understand it may be a couple of days before any one arrives.  My SPOT watcher has a list of people to call starting with a local outfitter to get me out. I have also used the non-emergency help as a message to have the outfitter pick me up at the arranged location (Hook Island). I use the spot in tracking mode I figure that will make it easier to find the body.
MagicPaddler

;) Damn socialists!  ;D

Honestly I'm glad you're alright and stuff. You bought the insurance and it paid off. That's all good but perhaps there should be a co-pay or something. I'm tired and I have drifted into a scary swamp and now feel oh so over my head!

I once worked with a guy who drew a panic button in his work area with a fat Sharpie. We'd all go in and bang on it occasionally. Of course it didn't do anything but we knew it would always make him chuckle and know when we needed his full attention. When it wasn't a request but a demand.

MT - You only answered the one question I already knew the answer to. Funny that.

Please, don't mention politics even if your just kidding around! All that many had prognosticated (including myself) is coming true in whirlwind fashion. It has become beyond disconcerting.

I suppose the only question left unanswered is "what is meant by doubling in that context".........Good question as it was not expanded upon.

Several of my earliest portages were short and rather than "load" my pack (I strap a duffel on top of my pack) I had decided to triple. When I hit the 1k portage it was about 5 P.M. and I wanted to save some time. I had put some pressure on myself with time constraints by shortening the days to accomplish the entire route and now I was curious to see what sort of mileage could be made the 1st day. Naturally an additional trip down a 1k portage would eat into my afternoon rather significantly.

Alas......crash and burn when I went to put my pack on. But wait, there's more ;).....I had shouldered the whole load earlier in the day with no problem but now, later in the day, I struggled and redoubled my efforts to get the pack on and down I went. A bit depleted later in the day? Um, the answer would be yes.....

Perhaps for some that would seem unusual or unwise but for me that was fairly common........that is to sometimes have difficulty shouldering a load and have to muscle it in place. But now there is a chink in the armor.

As a kid it was common for me to place 2 big flattails pushing 60lbs a piece into a wicker packbasket and and walk out of a swamp and up steep country indeed. Those days are long gone but they are tough to let go of.

My new reality is one of considering pressure on discs in my back and unsteady knee joints. It is what it is. Had I triple portaged that 1k I might have been able to continue but for how long? It is likely that sooner or later my weakness would of revealed itself and there was a good chance it wouldn't of been in such a "rescue friendly" spot. (That spit of sand was the only spot like it I had seen all day)

In the future I will give greater consideration to triple portaging although I loathe  :( the idea. The initial feelings will probably change though as I breeze down the trails all light and lively. Plus I will only have to employ the tactic early on when supplies are full. So what if it adds an extra hour to my portages for the day and perhaps I don't get as far. The only appointment I need to keep is with Mr. Big right at dark.   

Quote:

In the future I will give greater consideration to triple portaging although I loathe   the idea. The initial feelings will probably change though as I breeze down the trails all light and lively. Plus I will only have to employ the tactic early on when supplies are full. So what if it adds an extra hour to my portages for the day and perhaps I don't get as far. The only appointment I need to keep is with Mr. Big right at dark.

I'd bet more injuries occur in the first few days of a trip than the last ones?
All the workouts you do, unless they involve actual paddling/portaging are never going to completely replicate actual conditions. First day, your asking you body to do a " workout" that it hasn't seen in awhile, sorta like expecting to keep up your first time doing your PX90 DVD.
You might of ended up hurting yourself down the road, but then you might of found that a few easy does it days would have allowed you to acclimate to a " new" workout? You/We will never know for sure.

It's one thing to muscle a load occasionally but when it becomes a habit, your asking for trouble and eventually you'll find it, sooner if you already have physical issues.

You can either lighten your load so you don't have to muscle it up every time, 3x portage until/if you feel comfortable/secure or plan trips that you don't have any hard portages.
That would limit your options significantly. From what we know of you, I'd say 3X portaging ( at least at first) would be a lot easier to swallow than be resigned to the easy road, well traveled ;)

Now you know why I recommended some of my "tricks" for putting on heavy packs. I have no physical issues and can still heft a load, but considering what's at stake and taking the long view, why would I if there's an easier option 8-)

I did actually give serious consideration to your advice ST. I flipped my boat and stacked 2 duffels on top and then placed my main bag on top to access my pack. It wasn't bad but I still didn't like it.

It still felt like an accident waiting to happen from my perspective.

I am wising up. A quiet determination to achieve the best shape of my life has been foisted upon me by this event. Nothing is off the table and that includes plenty of visits to doctors to get a better understanding of just what the problems are.

Then a dose of humility will be applied. Even if I am in shape my intention is to either lighten my load (probably not happening to any great extent) or step a bit lighter which will mean accepting a triple portage mentality at least in the initial stages of a trip. I think it would be a smart move to limit packs to around 60lbs instead of 80.

Quote:

I think it would be a smart move to limit packs to around 60lbs instead of 80

I believe KF posted about this subject at one time. He's in great shape, bushwhacks on a regular basis, so he knows of what he speaks.

If I understand right, you were trying to lift multiple items using my bow lifting tip?  Problem with this is as much about weight distribution/balance points as weight.
Before I had a dedicated food pack, I had a big waterproof duffel bag that I carried food/kitchen items in.
One time early on, I decided that since it was a very short portage, I would carry my gear pack as usual and take my food duffel and set across top of pack behind my head.
The duffel had 2 haul loops each end and that's what I was holding onto when I found out the hard-way about ignoring the rule about keeping your pack weight close to lower back/hips.
Even though I had no problem setting duffel across pack and could handle the weight, it set the balance ( tipping) point to high above my centerline. The duffel itself was heavier on one end than the other do to the way my food/cooking utensils were packed.
I hit a little slippery rocky patch and stepped down on one side to keep from falling. As soon as I stepped down the extra weight toppled me over. Fortunately, the duffel fell off and I ended up in the turtle position. Embarrassed at my own folly but unhurt.
When you rehab, try the bow trick with just a pack. I think it will feel way different than trying to lift multiple items which if I understand correctly is what you were doing?

I take a lot of stuff too and triple all the time. Don't think of it as an extra arduous trip. Think three easy trips. And instead of trudging along, you can be nimble and quick about it. Plus you don't have to sit and rest before you paddle away.

Small towns are sometimes rather peculiar. My wife had informed me the "the whole world" new about my evac..........especially since she had received the 11 emails seemingly imploring help. Word travels fast in small towns and of course gets distorted.

I sort of dismissed it until last night when we walked into Beef-o-Bradys and was greeted by loud clapping of at least a dozen people. I literally had to look behind me to try and figure what all the raucous  was about. The world is upside down.......I deserve to get slammed and instead come home to cheers :-/.

Your wish is my command sir. :D

No seriously, now I'm confused MT. Weren't you doing a 3+week trip? I tweaked an ankle one year. I had met up a friend for part of that trip and he was along on the out of the way daytrip where it happened. I laid there writhing in pain thinking I would be screwed and being damn glad we just took the one canoe that day. A day or two later he was heading out and didn't want to leave w/o me. I said it was getting better and I'd be fine. I'll just sit here for another day or two.... In the back of my mind though, I was thinking I cold easily con him into portaging my canoe on the three portages we'd travel together and then make some excuse to continue my trip.

I use to just go, leaving my girlfriend with a date I'd return and the phone# for the park. She had been there many times and knew the place and my habits well. I'd always called as soon as I could after I get out. Essentially to say that I was starting the second dangerous leg of my trip. Now days I plan a route and leave a map with lines and circles and arrows, contact #s. It's a pain in the butt. I was thinking a SPOT might be useful since I wouldn't be locked into a predefined route.

After reading your sister thread on solotripping tonight I can't help but wonder.  My evil mind is saying Dude! Get a spot and get in the boat and go until you run out of food or get bored. Then just stick the paddle between two trees and break it. Hide the evidence and press the help, send float plane at your earliest convenience button.

My luck? I'd probably yank on that paddle cautiously with no success. Then rethink my methods and give it one big push, snap, go flying only to hear a bone snap as I hit the ground badly. Hard to escape that Karma thing.

Plus, and to me, this is akin to the PFD thing, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Part of the allure for me is working w/o a net. Being self sufficient in mind, body and spirit. Knowing my limits. If I need a little help along the way I'll take it but once you can count on it w/o consequences ... that becomes a slippery slope - eyes too big for the stomach type of thing IMHO.

Enjoyable post DB..........

Although I am under no illusions of travel in WCP there is nothing "technical" there (whitewater).  Portages are available and  although they may be tough to find they are there. Being in the park and navigating it for a lengthy period of time was the least of my concerns. Rather, it being a bit idiotic to have gone in when just 30 days prior I had a rather significant event with the same knee that went out (as well as a disc problem in my back). Not to bright.

At the very least I should of followed basic common sense which would of said........"perhaps you should scale the ambition meter down and at the very least have an option for retreat". To further implicate myself that very conversation was made privately on this very website. The idea was introduced and rejected.

I am, by nature, ambitious and driven and once I get a vision in my head it can be tough to get me off the goal. Good and bad can come from that.

Funny thing is that right now I feel zero issues with the big joint. It's like nothing happened. Of course I have finally wised up and will go through with whatever is required to get me back in the game.

You should eventually get a SPOT. I dislike the concept of a yearly subscription fee (you never stop paying for the thing) but it can sure come in handy. You can bet I will have it with me in the backcountry of the glades from now on as well. BTW, you can call for the floatplane but it is still going to cost you......$480 in my case for the less than 1 hour flight in which I thought was reasonable.   

Hey, MT.  I just got around to reading your thread after some folks on bwca.com referenced it.  Bad luck on your mishap, but glad you made it back home in one piece...more or less.  I wouldn't beat yourself up much.  Anyone who gets out of their comfort zone a bit and takes calculated risks get a plus over someone who stays in their comfort zone all the time. 

My knee crapped out on me this summer as well, but not as bad as yours.  Hope you get well soon and "back in the game."  Like you, I'm now 51 and I can see the writing on the wall as far as portage weight goes.  I used to carry 90 pounds without too much trouble.  But the knee is telling me no more.  I tripled several of the portages this year, including the last half of the Death March.  I just can't get myself to leave behind my "comfort" items yet.

Re SPOT, I've used the first version 2 years now.  Yeah, the annual $99 fee kind of sucks, but I do it more for my wife and kids.  She actually commented this year that it was nice to watch my progress with the knee acting up.  Like db, I leave a map with my planned route, but tell her to not be surprised if and when I deviate from the plan.  After reading your recent experience, she's likes the SPOT even more knowing that if I ever do hit 911, the evac actually happens.

Thanks PK
I was glad to hear in your trip report you were able to not only do your trip but excel in spite of your knee issues. Good for you!

Beat myself up? I dunno know?! As you know (as per our political debates) I can be a person of very strong opinions. Some folk like that about me and some folk hate that about me. But IMO if a person is to be honest one must be able to look at oneself in as objective manner as possible when mistakes are made. Failing in that is to end up putting the blame on something or someone else.

What happened is a common human mistake. That is, in spite of the evidence and potential for mishap, a course is plotted and the action executed regardless. Just ask General Lee about Gettysburgh.

Failure to, at the very least, acknowledge the error of judgement (and indeed it was) and eat some humble pie would be a failure to grow and mature as a human being. Am I going to stay in that mode? No way........I'm past it, I've learned from it and am ready to move on.

I guess triple portaging isn't the end of the world. DB and now you (on the lengthy Death March no less) employ it and your smart guys (I mean for Democrats that is ;) ). Perhaps I will try and open my mind to the concept a bit. I like my stuff ( and now all I need is a "place for my stuff".........or better yet, "someone to carry my stuff").

db had a comment that bears repeating and rings true in many cases.
He mentioned that triple portaging leaves you less fatigued at the end of hard portage portage than 1x--2x would in some cases.
My personal experience has been that its something to consider for all or even just the hardest parts of a long slog.
Unless your a ultralight road runner person who single portages every time, you won't find much difference time wise between 2x--1x portaging especially if while single your stopping or arrive so whipped you need time to recover.
Same with 3x vs 2x. Yes, your covering more ground, but expending probably little more energy running empty vs lugging a load.
I've often 3x portaged just short sections ( mud bogs/ corduroy) and found that the time wasn't that big of deal and when you factor in the fatigue/safety factor, it was really a no-brainier.

Indeed ST, I did triple several of the short stretches rather than "load up". While the accumulative effects of a day can serve to whip my tail I cannot ever remember having to "rest up" after a tough portage or really even slow down. Isn't that what getting back in the boat is for? While I may get pushed into tripling I ain't likin it. An extra trip on a 1K portage is pretty time consuming and smacks of inefficiency. Of course my alternative was an injury so I guess it is all about perspective. Maybe I will talk myself into tripling the first few days or perhaps the first 1/3 of a long trip where a lot of supplies are involved.

Just got back from the doc. Surgery set for thursday. He seems to think the knee is stable and an old meniscus tear is flippin around finding a place where it shouldn't. I'm still suspicious and am hoping against him finding a stretched tendon as well which is not repairable. Walking around in 3 days after the 20 minute surgery and doing what I want in 3 weeks sounds great. Do I dare as much  to hope that I could resume a little martial arts and actually RUN! Not that I would (well, maybe just a little) but that would be great!

Quote:

While I may get pushed into tripling I ain't likin it. An extra trip on a 1K portage is pretty time consuming and smacks of inefficiency. Of course my alternative was an injury so I guess it is all about perspective.

Good news about your knee, hopefully the Doc is spot on.
Maybe while he's cleaning up your knee, he can cut down your A+ personality type, at least on your trips to maybe a B+ ;)
If you don't change your mindset a bit, once your feeling 100%, your likely to be right back where you started.

I know some feel that if they don't cover X amount of ground in X amount of time, or that they have to back-off do to injury etc, that they have somehow " failed" on their goals? Being driven 24/7 is a game you can't win in the end.

I think the main goal should be to enjoy yourself and let the daily grind go. Nothing the matter with running full tilt, when the conditions are right but a nice stroll has its perks too ;)

You know the nice thing about traveling solo, you can go on your own pace.  I will admit that at 51, I was still ripping around trying to cover ground.  I don't know if its age or just taking time to enjoy my surroundings more, but when I'm alone whether I double, triple, or leap-frog portage doesn't raise much of a blip on my radar.

Perhaps I don't travel that slowly, however.  When traveling with Jimbo's crew a couple of years ago, on our next to last travel day, I chose to lag behind at the campsite and leave about 30 minutes behind the others.  That way, I got to travel at my own pace and not have to sit and wait for portages to clear of traffic before I could pull-up and unload.  (I was also getting a bit concerned that others might have felt I was slowing them down.  While having others haul part of your load over a portage, it really wasn't necessary.)  When I arrived at the final campsite (I had the misfortune of paddling in driving rain for about the last 1/2 of it, which did slow me up just a tab in the interest of caution), I asked how long they had been there.  "Oh, about 30 minutes" was the answer I got.  So, maybe I wasn't so slow after all.

dd

As usual your right ST.

A+ personality? AW geez, I think your swell too ;)

(That would be an interesting addition to "Paddler Profile" would it not? that being......."do you see yourself as a type A or B or C person")

BTW, who are you calling extroverted, inflexible, easily angered, hyper competitive and impatient? "You talkin to me"......."just wait until I get my knee fixed"......."I'll show you"  :D

Quote:

As usual your right ST.

Not even close :-?
But, I can relate to going hard or not going at all.
When I first found QJ, I would read trip reports that covered areas I had paddled but never really saw :(
I was so focused on getting to the next campsite I missed things I wished I had taken the time to discover on my own.

I'm an early riser anyway, so I don't mind paddling longer time wise, at a slower pace sometimes when I'm on new or interesting water. I know I can turn it on if need be, so as long as I get out on time, everything in between is negotiable :)

It's amazing what you miss and what you can see/discover if you only take the time to look ;)

In all seriousness I believe you are exactly correct. That is, in taking time to allow things to happen. In spite of my wanderlust style (yes I do like to see new places) I am also familiar with being still.

To those who hunt, wether it be with camera or gun, understand that to be a "part" of the environment as opposed to an intruder (for lack of a better word) requires one to stop and be still. It is only then that the forest inhabitants resume their activity. The longer you are still, IMO, the more you start to really "see" what is around you and that includes tiny vistas as well as sights far away.

I like to stop at a portage and eat a bar when the time is right. I almost always find something of interest or thought provoking beauty in the 5 minutes it takes.

MT,

I'm just catching up and read of your misfortune. I assume the surgery went well. How is the rehab going? Praying for a full recovery. 8-)

Thanks OS.....that is kind of you to inquire. I will covet your prayers.

It seems to be getting better. I did 4 consecutive days of bike riding last week..... 6, 6, 12 and 14 miles. Yoga last night which seemed to help some more.

I am suspicious of course and will take it little at a time. To be able to jump, run or throw a few kicks without collapsing in a heap would be absolutely spectacular.

And how about you? Did you not have some knee issues yourself? Replacement if memory serves me correct?

I had partial knee replacement of my right knee two years ago, and it is doing well. I also had a partial tear in my left knee, and left hamstring strain last year. A steroid shot has helped with that, and I'm beginning that rehab. I'm working on flexibilty and strenthening exercises, and now can get back on the elliptical to build endurance. My shortterm goal is to be able to do a trip next year in Q or WCPP.

I'm glad to hear about you cycling. Very encouraging.

Have you considered yoga? I bet you have. Get a DVD and do it in the comfort of your own home. I am gravitating toward it as a great way to stay flexible as I enter the realm of getting old and stiff (and grumpy) ;).

Low impact, go at your own pace moves which really seems to help prepare my body for other types of activities. Plus it builds some strength. Check it out.........I don't know about you but I'm getting ready for next years trip now  :).

You been talking to my wife? She also is encouraging yoga. I'll have to give it a try...if only I could get off the floor... :D

According to my wife (certified yoga instructor), something like the lunge (a.k.a Anjaneyasana or "crescent moon") pose would be good to strengthen your knee muscles.  However, alignment is critical.  If you are misaligned, it could do more harm than good.  She recommends going to a competent yoga instructor, explain your injury, and have the instructor check your alignment.



dd

DentonDoc wrote on Sep 20^th, 2011 at 3:40am:

According to my wife (certified yoga instructor), something like the lunge (a.k.a Anjaneyasana or "crescent moon") pose would be good to strengthen your knee muscles.  However, alignment is critical.  If you are misaligned, it could do more harm than good.  She recommends going to a competent yoga instructor, explain your injury, and have the instructor check your alignment. dd

Your wife is a smart women ;)
Before you start any home DVD exercise program that is new to you, you would be wise to take a few classes from a certified instructor.
If your doing as part of a re-hab program it's even more important.
Even the best DVDs sometimes don't allow you to see how your alignment should look from every angle.
Sometimes the difference between doing it right and safely comes down to the little things.
Lot's of people end up hurting themselves doing various workout DVDs becasue they forget that for the most part there for people that may be out of shape but don't have physical problems that need to be taken in to consideration.
You can modify almost any exercise to fit your fitness/ physical limitations. The trick is to make sure your not doing more harm than good.

I didn't mean to redirect this thread to being about me. I work with MD's PT's and others in the medical field daily. I get it.

Now, back to MT and his 'trip'.

Old Salt wrote on Sep 20^th, 2011 at 8:03pm:

I didn't mean to redirect this thread to being about me. I work with MD's PT's and others in the medical field daily. I get it. Now, back to MT and his 'trip'.

Awww, you didn't redirect nuthin.......just glad your back.

My poor trip.......I waited all year, worked my tail off to get ready and then crash and burn. At least the Isle Royale trip was awesome. It has probably all been for the better. I'm ahead on my work and not behind....my wife and munchkin are happier.......and I think I am a bit wiser after having gone through all this.........

Back from the Docs today. He seemed impressed with the biking I've been doing. He said this surgery usually takes 3 months to fully heal. Then he said I could play tennis if I wanted to. I don't play tennis but I could if I wanted to ;D.

But enough about me........what do you think about me?.............. ( ;D Sorry, I couldn't help it)

mastertangler wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 12:35am:

what do you think about me?.............. ( ;D Sorry, I couldn't help it)

As little as possible!  ( ;D Sorry, I couldn't help it)

Nice set up, though!

dd

Good one! I was hoping someone would play ball......... :)

mastertangler wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 12:35am:

Back from the Docs today. He seemed impressed with the biking I've been doing.

Yes, cycling is one of the best things you can do if you have knee problems: it builds up the quads, which hold the whole middle leg together, without the damaging stresses you get in sports like running.

Make sure your bike pedals have cages (ie not like most mountain bikes) so you can work the muscle "eccentrically" on the upstroke. (Eccentrically = the muscle does work while lengthening rather than contracting).

Cycling can give you a good cardio workout too. :)

Eccentrically? Oh boy do I have a lot to learn about biking.....I have never heard of such a word (although a few folk have called me something close ;) ).

I did a smidge over 20 miles this morning before church with no ill effects on the knee, but I did have a tough time stayin awake during service   :o.

Biking......I can see getting passionate about it especially since I have such a superlative place to do it. I have decided my goal this winter is to go around the big "O" which would be right at 100 miles. It is all flat so I think I have a good shot if the wind doesn't kick up.

Thanks Joe for introducing me to a different concept. I will have to look into that a bit. 

mastertangler wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 8:12pm:

I did a smidge over 20 miles this morning before church with no ill effects on the knee, but I did have a tough time stayin awake during service   :o. Biking......I can see getting passionate about it especially since I have such a superlative place to do it. I have decided my goal this winter is to go around the big "O" which would be right at 100 miles. It is all flat so I think I have a good shot if the wind doesn't kick up.

Just remember that your objective is more about muscle than mileage.  If you think you need more of a workout, lower your tire pressure and/or add a bit a drag to your rear brake.  Its amazing how much more energy it takes to peddle a "de-tuned" bicycle.

dd

Not to worry........I have a big heavy mountain bike with big fat tires. In the winter the wind picks up and absolutely kicks my arse, usually on the way back ;D.

Picked up a spare tube and co2 cartridge as well as digital mileage/speed indicator. It would be interesting to see the mileage in a few years.

Eccentric training is pretty standard fitness protocol. When you're working out on weights (including gym machines), they always tell you to lift the weight slowly and (important) to let it down slowly as well - that's the eccentric part of the cycle.

You might have noticed hiking downhill can be hard on the knees, especially if you have a heavy load (like on a steep downhill portage). That's because you're forcing your quads to work eccentrically when they haven't been trained for it. Working extra-hard on concentric contraction (normal cycling, uphill hiking) really isn't a substitute.

J_S_ is right on about the Eccentric training.
I have a Cross bike that's not made for serious off road use but will handle more surfaces than a dedicated road bike.
Toe cages don't work well if you want to take your bike off-road. They tend to snag on brush and can make it hard to get free in case of a sudden unexpected dismount ;D
You can buy the biking shoes/pedals that clip together and allow you to get that Eccentric workout but if you don't want to spend the money, you can wear your favorite shoe and use a strap type system that is much cheaper and gives you the best of both worlds for a fraction of the price.

I have these, but there are other brands too.

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Excellente' ST..........As soon as I get a few bucks in I'm going to pick up a set of these!!

Thanks Amigo.......