"Setting The Trap" Basics on trolling part 2

Where were we. Oh yea, Rocket science and physics and other such nonsense. You may be thinking.... "I just want to catch a fish". Too much detail and for some it stops being fun right? Stay with me and it will become second nature and the end result is certainly worth it.

Back to physics. Even the word sounds intimidating doesn't it. Almost every action you do involves that word so don't fear it. Dip that paddle into the water and do a pry stroke or a J stroke and most certainly measurable physics has taken place. The $10 dollar question is how do we apply that to fishing and trolling more specifically.

Let's go back to the title, "setting the trap". When you picture the setting of a trap the first thing that should enter your mind is tightness. Like a coiled spring. Your presentation should be likewise. Nothing floppy or loose. For example, if you have a flexible rod and it is stuck out the side of the boat at a 90 degree angle then when Mr. fish bites the bend in the rod will absorb the energy up until the point where that bend reaches the thicker butt portion and the majority of the energy will only then transfer to the hook. By that time it is quite possible, in fact even likely, that the fish will spit the fake out.......... often without you even knowing.

So how do we achieve "getting tight"?
1) First off do yourself a favor and get a rod holder. There are many makes and models around. I have made it no secret I like the ram rod 2000 in the side mount model. Primo!

2) If you have a flimsy or flexible rod (ugly sticks come to mind) angle the rod back toward the lure while trolling. Somewhere between 90 degrees (straight out from the boat) and 45 degrees back is about right.
You still want the rod to bend on the hook set as it will absorb the shock of the fish striking. But at least if you have it angled back it will "load" much faster toward the rear (stiffer butt section) of the rod.

3) Remember that mono line stretches. The further I am running a lure the more stretch that will be involved. Compensation must be made if I am to have a coiled spring. That may include angling the rod back even more than normal. Sometimes it is advantageous to run a lure way back. If the fish are shallow for example and the boat is going over the top of them that can put them off.......... Or if you want your lure to dive deeper. Many lipped baits will dive deeper the more line you let out.

4) I haven't, as yet, addressed drag settings but it is crucial. Most inexperienced anglers have their drag settings to light. When the fish bites, the line should not slip out until the hook is set. If the drag slips before the hook penetrates a fishes mouth you typically lose. Remember, you have some stretch in the line as well as some flex in the rod to consider. I always test my drag by pulling on the line periodically while I'm trolling and adjust if need be. It is worth mentioning that as the amount of line on the spool decreases the drag pressure will increase. In other words if you have a lot of line out, and you have a small reel the drag pressure will be higher than before you let the line out. This added pressure can cause the line to part when the fish strikes and becomes hooked so get into the habit of pulling out a bit of line from time to time and adjust if need be. Physics.

4) Hooks need to be sharp, sharp, sharp. Dull hooks require greater pressure to imbed. Besides, if you have a "sticky" sharp hook then even if a fish tries to spit your plug he may not be able to before it is to late.

5) Your line is the link to it all so it is crucial that it is of good quality and fresh. Mono will degrade with time and exposure to sunlight and heat. Keep in mind that the thicker the line the less able a lure will be able to "pull" that line into the water column. Once again physics are involved.

6) you must be able to tie a good knot. Practice before you go on your trip with fresh line and be confident that you can apply the same lb pressure to the line as is rated. Going with 8lb test? You should be able to apply 8lbs of pressure before the line will break. I am a bit of a knot fanatic and it is here where physics comes into its own. Perhaps that will be next months tip.

Fishing can be a thinking mans game. That's one reason I like it. There are many different variables that come into play, so for me it doesn't get boring. There is always something new or someplace new to try.

Trolling is one of my very favorite ways to fish. Set the trap and paddle and enjoy the day. Sooner or later it will get sprung. And then what? Is it a big one or a little one? A pike or a walleye? A big fat laker or an ariel football? All that adds up to another reason I like to fish........... the surprise, the mystery, the unexpectedness of it all!



   

Great stuff Mastertangler.  Trolling is my favorite way to fish in canoe country.  Pay special attention when you are turning, as you'll get lots of bites then.  The lure on the rod on the inside of the turn will slow down, and the one on the outside will speed up.  Which one gets hit will also clue you in on whether you need to speed up or slow down.  Throw in a little speed every so often too.  I've caught many fish that bit seconds after I sped up.  

Good stuff including the speed variation and turns.

MichiganMan wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 2:08am:

Great stuff Mastertangler.  Trolling is my favorite way to fish in canoe country.  Pay special attention when you are turning, as you'll get lots of bites then.  The lure on the rod on the inside of the turn will slow down, and the one on the outside will speed up.  Which one gets hit will also clue you in on whether you need to speed up or slow down.  Throw in a little speed every so often too.  I've caught many fish that bit seconds after I sped up.

Excellent Tonello. Thanks for weighing in.

Welcome aboard as Old Salt would say. Everyone here is out-of-sight. They don't bark or they don't bite.....they keep things loose, they keep things light........................Jeez,  that could almost be a song  ;).

mastertangler wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 5:33pm:

2) If you have a flimsy or flexible rod (ugly sticks come to mind) angle the rod back toward the lure while trolling. Somewhere between 90 degrees (straight out from the boat) and 45 degrees back is about right. You still want the rod to bend on the hook set as it will absorb the shock of the fish striking. But at least if you have it angled back it will "load" much faster toward the rear (stiffer butt section) of the rod.

i liked just about everything you said except this part. i think you got this part backwards unless i misunderstood what you were saying. i generally angle my rod slightly forward because it helps with a bunch of different things. (i use fireline (no stretch superline), but this doesnt change the rod positioning in my opinion).

by angling the rod slightly forward, the soft part of the rod bends from your lure pulling on it. this takes out the really soft bendy part. when the fish strikes it is putting the pressure on the middle section of the rods flexibility and this is where you fight the fish. the stiff part of the rod gives you control of the fishes direction, the soft part keeps the hooks sunk in, and the middle part is where you absorb the fishes fight.

also, by angling the rod slightly forward, when you go to pull the rod free of the holder you are pushing it forward and this keeps the line tight. if you angle the rod backward, you are pointing the rod at the fish when you free it from the holder and this is not good. you never want to point the rod at the fish.

keep the rod at 90 degrees to the fish if you can. this gives the maximum amount of bend in the rod. this keeps the hooks sunk in the fishes mouth, gives you the most control, and gives you the most leeway when it comes to hard runs, sharp turns, or head shakes. it basically compensates for anything that could happen and reduces the impact of a mess up.

another thing i like to do is keep my elbows at 90 degrees as well. this gives you about a foot of leeway in each direction (assuming your shoulder to elbow is about 1 foot). if the fish runs super hard away from you, you have an extra foot of play the fish by extending your arm or if the fish runs hard at you can can absorb the extra foot by pulling the reel to your chest. it may not seem like that much, but it really can save you a ton of fish.

Jax,
Being the blunt fellow that I am my first inclination was to deride and make fun of your style of trolling. But, seeing that no one really knows me they may take it the wrong way. I like to tease and pick and I usually do it with a smile on my face and no real malice at all. All in good fun.  ;)

It occurs to me you must be a true expert. Because that is the only way someone could catch fish trolling like that ;D.

My tip was for beginners (evidently myself included) so all you who are new to fishing you would be hard pressed to go wrong if you follow my suggestions. When you progress, you can move on to the more advanced styles  ;).

OK......I'm just having my fun. The great thing about fishing is there are so many different ways to fish. Evidently Jax's set-up.......especially the no stretch line is working for him. BTW, Jax, are you running a leader off the fireline?  

i do run an 8" invisaleader when i use fireline. i like the swivel snaps on this brand. with fireline i really dislike having to cut the knot each time so i wanted a quick snap, and because i use a quick snap i might as well use a leader. if you give a mouse a cookie... fireline, although very durable, is subject to fraying when pounding on rocks for a while. i use the leader to limit the amount the line rubs on the rocks and generally cut and retie the leader on after a long bit of trolling if i hit the bottom a lot. plus it never hurts to have a little bit of metal to protect your line from the toothy monsters. these leaders are fairly inexpensive so i dont feel bad changing them if they get kinked up. the first fish on the trip this year managed to twist itself up so badly in the line and leader i had to change the leader 150 yards from the shore on the first lake!

Jumpin jiminy! Not only do you use "Here I Am Line" you top the whole contraption off with wire! I was figuring you were running 8' of FC. I would like to take you out and give you a good spanking ;D........Show you how the old guys do it  8-).

keep in mind i use fireline + leader on my baitcaster where im throwing expensive plugs. im a college kid with a wedding to pay for so im by no means made of money to replace those things!

on my jig rod i use 4lb test to give the fish a chance  ;) i think this mix keeps it fair

Hey Jax
Congrats on the big day!

I'd like to send you one of my favorite crankbaits as a wedding present [smiley=thumbup.gif]
Really  :)

Whens the big day? Enjoy it..........single best day of my life.


I think it is funny on how our fishing perspectives are different. You use 4lb to give the fish a chance..........I use 4lb so the fish doesn't have a chance  :D.

mastertangler wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2010 at 2:04am:

Hey Jax Congrats on the big day!

thanks! the big day is august 13th of next year. she made sure to pick a day that didnt interfere with my trip to the Q. <3 such a wonderful woman :)

Hey this is my first post here. I'm an Ontario guy and mainly fly fish, but I often take a spinning rod as well for the trout opener in Algonquin. If I am using a superline - its power pro. IMHO much better than Fireline. I think the point of MT's post re rod position was that you have to have a tight line to the fish on the hook set. Bad hook set, no fish. With a 'soft' rod (bendy) the tip will bend way too much for a good hook set. Jax, I see where you are coming from in that you are trying to get the top third of the rod loaded, so by angling forward you hope to impart a max bend. The problem is that it is still the butt of soft action rods that, gives you the most power to set the hook so you are actually taking longer to get the rod butt in play when you angle the line forwards. With your use of fire line, you are okay in that the no stretch still allows a good set and on your stiffer rod, but if using mono and a soft rod, you'll end up losing fish.  A really good example is when I troll streamers with my fly rod. Even though its is fast action rod, it is still WAY more bendy than a spinning rod, and being 9 feet, it takes longer for the rod to load down to the stiffer butt section. If I angle the rod out to the side, I will get very poor hook sets and lost fish. What I do is point the rod tip STRAIGHT BACK behind the canoe, and hang the reel over the canoe yoke (or thwart). I have to be careful how I adjust the drag, so that I get a good set but that it will give line to a big fish. Usually I am quite fast on the set. As soon as the rod/line moves, due to a hit, I grab the rod and line, so as to ensure a good set from a turning/running fish, then let off the pressure a bit and fight the beast. I catch a lot of lakers like this. And walleyes too in other waters.

Hope no one takes offense to this post, as none was intended. We all have our own methods and obviously are having some success. Just my two cents.

Moonman.

moonman ;D

Welcome Aboard!

I think I can speak for all here, when I say a diversity of opinion/experience is always welcome.

Only thing most of us ask, is that the discussion doesn't get personal.
Just like any free spirited debate should be. For the most part we all respect that premise.

I'm a fan of the Power Pro line as well.

Drag is crucial when trolling, totally agree.

The method I use to set my drag is to crank the drag tight then load the rod.  Get a good bend in it.  Once loaded I'll slowly loosen the drag until it just starts to let out, tic...tic...tic.  

Is this good/correct?

ill have to check into power pro line. i use fireline because i use a baitcasting reel and fireline is very forgiving when it comes to backlashes. it never kinks or anything even in the worst possible rats nest. i have never tried power pro before. my cousin uses it on his baitcaster and i tried his rod once and i was not impressed. i didnt like the rod or the reel, so i guess it is hard to judge the line.

how does power pro respond to backlashes? does it fray when it gets old like fireline does? fireline is subject to snapping under shock stress. ive had a couple nice lures break off when casting because of a backlash. does that ever happen with power pro? i guess i dont sound overly competent because of all the backlash talk, but then again you generally only remember the bad things that happen.

Jaximus,

Power Pro to my mind has a much limper hand than Fire-line.
I don't notice any significant backlash/rat's nest issues. Has almost zero memory and cast well off my rod of choice, a spinning one.

Here's a little info I found comparing the two. As you might suspect opinions vary but PP seems to have a slight edge.

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I can sympathize with a backlash and gone lure with super lines. I can't really address superlines and baitcasters as far as casting goes as I usually don't put the two together. If I did more Muskie casting I suspect I would go that direction in a hurry.

I do, however, use PP exclusively backcountry salt water fishing on spinning reels. Works very nicely. As with any line it is subject to tangles. IMO it is a waste of time to try and get the lashes out with PP. I have never used fireline but if you can get the backlashes out that would be a plus for it. With PP it's cut and re-tie. (Probably needed it anyway). I ALWAYS add at least 3' of floro and if I troll I would add 8'. PP to floro is a bit tricky and can be aggravating at times but if done right very reliable.

I honestly don't see the need for superlines in canoe country with the exception of deep water trolling where the fine diameter of the PP will allow a crank bait to really dive deep. All the rest of the fish I can turn eventually with 6 or 8lb mono. It's not like the salt water freight trains that are going to take you 10ft up under the bushes and you either stop 'em or pop 'em.  

thanks solotripper, that was a good read. it answered a lot of the questions i had and mastertangler addressed the one question i had left about how well PP cut through the water. fireline is pretty flat and is quite thin so it cuts through the water quite well.

ill have to get a spool of PP and see how i like it.

any suggestions on what lb test? i primarily use the baitcaster for pitching jigs, rattletraps, spinnerbaits, spoons and plugs. nothing overly big. probably the 15 lb test (4lb diameter mono) PP. i use the 14lb test (6lb diameter) fireline currently

what color? i generally fish in clear lakes and mildly stained rivers. i have the smoke fireline but the red PP looks interesting

Hey Jax,

I use 8lb PP for trout (lakers and brookies). I actually find that you get less backlashes with powerpro. It has a round profile and buries into the spool less, although I think Fireline is better at not doing that than it was. I wouldn't use any superlne on a baicaster however, unless you went to a heavier test. I find you have much better control thumbing the spool with a slightly thicker diameter. When Fireline first came out, I used it a lot. I find the non stretch lines works a bit better in a couple of presentation methods - using snap weights, and jigging (doesn't hurt long line trolling either) . Mono still is fine of course, and I'll use that if thats whats on teh reel I pick up. When I forst used Fireline, I was using the 6 - 2 (6lb test, 2lb test mono diameter). Tossing small spoons, I could feel small brookies short hitting the lure and not getting hooked. I would have never felt that with mono. If you want more opinions on it, there is some good info on the Larry Dahlberg Hunt for Big Fish forum. Also, best knot I've found for joining to fluro is the back to back uni.

Moonman.

Jaximus,

I'd say the 15l# PP would be about right, although as you can see the line weight runs up or down depending on who's using it.

I'm a solo paddler, so when I'm traveling and have a line in the water,
which is 90% of the time, weather permitting, I use the 20# PP on a Med-Heavy UglyStik rod.

I used too lose a lot of baits because by the time I could grab rod or stop forward momentum solo, a lighter line would snap under the pressure.

I found with heavier test, I can set the drag right, and unless I'm being pushed by a good tailwind, I don't break off as much.

20# PP is about 6# mono, so the lure gets down well, and I don't think it's costing me missed strikes, although with the quality of fishing, I don't know how you would even know that :-/

If I was in a tandem canoe, I'd probably go lighter as you have someone to control canoe and more time to monitor your rod.

I have 2 spools for my 2 spinning rigs I bring, with a mix of braid and mono ( TECTAN). If you've never used this premium German mono, give it a try if you can find it? Cabelas carries it or used to. Ultra-thin, ultra strong knot strength.

I use the 11# Tectan, which is about regular 4# mono diameter. On a light spinning rod it's great for smallies/Waldo's and will handle the big boys with a little extra backup if needed.

Another vote for Power Pro over Fireline.  Actually I don't use it in the Q though.  I use it for trolling for salmon on Lk MI.  It goes on my diver rods.  I also 8 lb power pro for casting for kings.

In the Q I use mono- 6 lb P Line CCX xtra strong.  That stuff is badass.  I also use it for steelhead fishing here in our Michigan rivers, and it can be hard to break off when you get hung up.

Mark

Hey Tonello
Big fan of P-line here in Florida in the 30lb test. I have never tried the ccx xtra strong. Would I be correct in assuming it's a bit thicker and has a real breaking strength above what is listed? Sounds perfect for steelheading in less than crystal clear water or hooking up in some weeds.

I have found many of the x-tra tough lines have increased visibility (correct me if I'm wrong about the ccx) and therefore I would probably forego it in canoe country for the same reason I don't use PP (although certainly to a much lesser extent). My first priority is stealth. The bigger the fish the more likely (IMO) they are to refuse a less than stealthy presentation. Of course exceptions abound. I have become fond of Gamma the last several years. Seems a good compromise, all things considered.

I had a near disaster type trip once when I had spooled up with P-line castable FC. I couldn't get a knot to stick in any of the lb tests. The line was either very old or it didn't like getting soaked in the all day rain of the previous day. Fortunately my partner had extra spools of green trilene xt (Great stuff.......still use the 4lb) and saved the day. Ended up with a mild confrontation back at Cabelas trying to return the stuff. Finally I got the fishing manager and dared him to tie a knot. Refund promptly granted for 4 spools of the blasted stuff.  P-line is superior, just tad bit thicker than most mono.    

P-line is indeed good stuff. I'm probably more pleased with this fish than any I've ever caught simply for the reason I was so undergunned. 30 lb p-line
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lets talk about hooks for trolling!

ive tried a couple different single hooks for spoons and the rear hook on my plugs but i just cant find anything i like/works as well as the trebles. ive experimented with different styles and sizes. the best one ive found so far is the gamagatsu octopus hook. it seems to have the best hook up rate of the single hooks ive tried, however, to get the size i want, the hook is pretty large/thick and subdues the action a little bit.

on some salt water baits ive seen they run dual single hooks on the same splitring facing opposite ways. so its kind of like a little trap. id like something that hooks up well during trolling, but also doesnt mangle the fish. the problem i have with trebles is that they tend to grab too much and tear things. plus they are a pain to get out. i think the dual single hooks would do something similar to what a treble does hook up wise, but im afraid it might main the fish even worse.

obviously having sharp hooks is the most important factor, but im getting at details. i would like your $.02.

P-line of a different sort makes me feel better, but that is just a humble opinion

P Line flouroclear 8 lb. test has put a lot of big (& many more small) fish in our canoes over the years

jaximus,

I have used the single hook options they sell with Mepps type spoons and like them fine. I don't know how you can quantify hook-up/loss difference between trebles hooks and single(s) hooks, Seems there are so many variables that it would be as much personal experience/conjecture as anything?

I've also taken a pair of side cutters and "made" treble hooks into side by side single hooks, and didn't see a problem.

At one time Cabelas sold replacement dual weedless hooks for spoons/ plugs. They had a stainless spring that that acted as a weed-guard. The dual hook set-up was similar to my modified treble, but the angle between them was a little smaller. Either way you have the hooks facing upward so the don't snag as much as trebles and release almost as easy as a single hook.

I think keeping the hook sharp means as much as anything, especially when they're being dragged over the rock bottoms in most BW/Q lakes.

Trebels are crutches.  Real anglers use single barbless.   :P
having said that, no I haven't swapped out all my trebels

jaximus wrote on Nov 5^th, 2010 at 5:38pm:

lets talk about hooks for trolling! ive tried a couple different single hooks for spoons and the rear hook on my plugs but i just cant find anything i like/works as well as the trebles. ive experimented with different styles and sizes. the best one ive found so far is the gamagatsu octopus hook. it seems to have the best hook up rate of the single hooks ive tried, however, to get the size i want, the hook is pretty large/thick and subdues the action a little bit. on some salt water baits ive seen they run dual single hooks on the same splitring facing opposite ways. so its kind of like a little trap. id like something that hooks up well during trolling, but also doesnt mangle the fish. the problem i have with trebles is that they tend to grab too much and tear things. plus they are a pain to get out. i think the dual single hooks would do something similar to what a treble does hook up wise, but im afraid it might main the fish even worse. obviously having sharp hooks is the most important factor, but im getting at details. i would like your $.02.

Hey Jax
I wonder if a guy couldn't make a "stiff rig" by getting away from the split ring and drilling a hole in a spoon and using a small stainless steel bolt/nut set-up to secure a single hook. I have done this on large jigging spoons and it came out quite nicely. I have also used electrical shrink tubing to make stiff rigs as well.