Continuing on along the field-based emergency preparedness kick I seem to be on, my latest obsession seems to be on "fire and light."

So, you are ditched and you'd like to have a little light, or a small flame that you can use for a little heat (I remember my dad talking about using a candle to heat his pup-tent during WW II).  Perhaps you want to dry out some small tender in preparation for making a larger fire.

Here is my small fire/candle trial setup:  a piece of cotton yarn for a wick and a 44 mag shell casing for a fuel holder.  (For those not familiar with a 44 mag round, the casing is approximately 1 1/4" long with a 1/2" diameter ... makes a fair metal tube with one end capped.)  In each case, the candle was ignited by using a butane lighter flame for less than 5 seconds--in most cases, less than 3 seconds.  If the accelerant is not listed, either I haven't tested it or it wouldn't stay lit for at least 30 minutes, without re-light or tending.  Keep in mind that I'm only considering things that have a good possibility of being with me/on me during a canoe-type trip.

Listed in order of flame strength:

1) petroleum jelly -- produces a strong, but initially sooty flame; container very near empty in 30 minutes
2) chapstick -- produces a strong, clean flame (only slightly less flame than petroleum jelly; container about 2/3rds empty in 30 minutes
3) alcohol-based hand sanitizer -- produces a small, nearly clear flame; container 1/2 empty after 30 minutes
4) vegetable oil (olive oil) -- produces a tiny, clean flame; container only 1/4 empty after 30 minutes.

I did run another test on a tube-dispensed sun screen, containing cocoa nut oil and other ingredients.  It would ignite and produce a strong sooty flame, but would not stay lit for 30 minutes.  As a side-bar test, I put the material (perhaps the diameter of a quarter and twice as thick) into an disposable aluminum-lined cup cake tin and ignited it.  It burned vigorously for about 5 minutes, but produced lots of soot.  It could make a descent fire starter.

BTW:  Many of my initial ignition test were more kudlik-style (tilted bottle cap and wick).  Many items burned a bit more effectively in this mode because of better air/fuel mix, but it was more difficult to judge burn time per unit of fuel this way.

dd

Good thoughts dd!


Quote:

44 mag shell casing

Maybe not a concern here in the US, but I wonder what would happen if the Canadian Customs guys would search your stuff and find even a empty .44 mag case :-?
Would they see it as no big deal, or in these times and with their strict handgun laws, see it as grounds for a serious once over of your vehicle?

Even though a .44 mag is available in long guns, it's most widely associated with handguns.  Best thing that ever happened for S+W, was Clint Eastwood choosing it's .44 mag model for his Dirty Harry character ;)

You being from the great state of TEXAS, they might think your a rip snorting, gun toting, rootin-tootin, whiskey swilling, desperado ;D

solotripper wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 4:23pm:

Maybe not a concern here in the US, but I wonder what would happen if the Canadian Customs guys would search your stuff and find even a empty .44 mag case.   Would they see it as no big deal, or in these times and with their strict handgun laws, see it as grounds for a serious once over of your vehicle?

Well, I  wasn't exactly recommending a shell casing in your ditch kit, but when you are trying to contain a burning liquid (all of the items tested did liquefy when hot), you'll need a container that doesn't burn to make a "candle."

Quote:

You being from the great state of TEXAS, they might think your a rip snorting, gun toting, rootin-tootin, whiskey swilling, desperado.

At least you don't see rifles hung in the back window of every pick-up you pass ... like it was in the old days.  However, Texans are still "packin'."  Recently a movie company wanted to do a remake of "Sniper in the Tower,"  the real-life tale of a sniper in the library tower on the University of Texas campus.  When he said he wanted to put someone on top of the tower and fire off a few blank rounds for purposes of filming, a local consultant clued him.  "Are you crazy.  You do that and you should expect live return fire within 2 minutes."

dd

Just funning you dd,
I don't really think you'd have a problem at the border or at least I would hope you wouldn't.

It doesn't bother me when I drive thru states that allow hunting rifles stored  in the pickup cabs.  I don't fear the legal law abiding citizens.
Sure some occasionally go off the deep end, but most violent crimes are by criminals with illegally stolen weapons.

Only a " Hollywood type" mentality would think no-one would respond to rounds being fired from a tower/building, especially in a right to " pack" state like Texas ;)

solotripper wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 4:23pm:

Maybe not a concern here in the US, but I wonder what would happen if the Canadian Customs guys would search your stuff and find even a empty .44 mag case :-? Would they see it as no big deal, or in these times and with their strict handgun laws, see it as grounds for a serious once over of your vehicle?

They should give your vehicle a once-over if they find empty shell casings or unspent ammo.  Any gun related evidence should prompt investigation.  Here's an interesting case that worked out just right.
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Interesting idea, using the shell casing for a candle. The beauty of it vs regular candles is that it can be 'reloaded' and reused after it burns out.

A spent casing might also be snipped or hammered out into a simple spear tip, arrowhead, or knife blade. With a little creativity, there's probably several other potential uses as well. I know a guy who used to pop the primers out and use them like a one-hitter to smoke weed out of  :D

I guess Preacher made my half-joking comment a consideration.
I would understand if they found ammo or spent shell casings, but a spent shell filled with candle/kindling igniter would seem to be self explanatory.

I wonder what would happen IF they found a spent shell/minus primer filled with pot, like Akula described.

I guess you could claim it was a bong or roach clip and see if you faired better being a pothead or a potential terrorist ;D

My suggestion would be to use a piece of aluminum foil for a 'container'. If the foil contains trioxane, so much the better.

solotripper wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 11:23pm:

I guess Preacher made my half-joking comment a consideration. I would understand if they found ammo or spent shell casings, but a spent shell filled with candle/kindling igniter would seem to be self explanatory.

It's a matter of perspective.  A border guard has the perspective that any evidence of the potential for a gun is cause for a search.  That guard is obligated to search.  That is the essense of their job.


Quote:

I wonder what would happen IF they found a spent shell/minus primer filled with pot, like Akula described. I guess you could claim it was a bong or roach clip and see if you faired better being a pothead or a potential terrorist ;D

They would arrest the perp.  Pretty stupid thing to do, cross an international border with illegal drugs.


In order to get into this situation the 'suspicious' item would pretty much have to be in plain view or you would have to look like a trouble-maker.  My packed gear is, well, packed.  Such items wouldn't be in plain view, not that they're likely to be in my posession at all in such a situation.  Crossing international borders is serious business.


A spent casing is a pretty slick container for something like this.

Preacher wrote on Nov 30^th, 2010 at 4:13pm:

A spent casing is a pretty slick container for something like this.

I was thinking in terms of something large enough to hold a few matches, for example, when not being used to contain a fuel source.

Can anyone think of something else that might be on your person (or at least in something like a fanny pack) that might serve as a fuel source ... something that you'd normally carry when in the out-of-doors?

dd

What about the Altiod tin itself, with a few pebbles to support the wick and take up the volume if need be. I suppose a small hole in the corner in the tin top (supporting a tip if need be) could also work keeping the efficiency in a better place, if one was using a liquid fuel source...that is... :-? Cooking vessel too.... I seen to remember seeing film containers in metal of the 35mm persuasion that could work pretty good for this....aren't we getting pretty close to a "can" in some regards?

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Let the rummaging begin

Quote:

Quote: I wonder what would happen IF they found a spent shell/minus primer filled with pot, like Akula described. I guess you could claim it was a bong or roach clip and see if you faired better being a pothead or a potential terrorist   They would arrest the perp.  Pretty stupid thing to do, cross an international border with illegal drugs.

Post 9/11 that may be true, but before that, depending on the officer and the amount/kind of drugs, it was not always a certainty.

True story. Back when I tripped with 3 other guys, one of them lived in Atlanta Georgia. He owned a couple of Mexican bar/restaurants, and had a concealed carry license.

One year he had to drive up to Atikokan solo because of business problems. In his haste, he forgot that he had a .25 Automatic tucked between the bucket seats of his Dodge van. He also had a small amount of pot for his personal use.

When he hit the border, it was just his luck to get motioned over for random inspection.  He saw the officers with a dog, and assumed it was a drug dog. He knew they would find the pot, so he just decided to make it easy and pulled the baggie from between the seats.

Much to his dismay, as he pulled the baggie out, he saw the butt end of his pistol and realized what he had done. The gun was legally registered but he didn't have proof of that or that he owned it. In either case he didn't feel it would make a difference. They ordered him out of the van, the dog jumped in and found the pot tucked into the ashtray on the engine console. The dog went thru the vehicle and they searched his personal gear, but the officers didn't search his van.

He owned up to the pot, and basically they confiscated it, he had to pay a fine and they put him on a list for future inspection.

When he got up to Atikokan, he was a nervous wreck. We had a lengthy discussion about what he should do with the handgun, but in the end, he said he would take care of the problem and that we were better off not knowing what he was going to do?

Years later it came out that on the way home, he stopped at some no-name lake and field stripped the gun, emptied the clip and threw the pieces into the lake. Not environmental correct for sure, but considering what could of happened, I guess he didn't see another way out of it :-/

The next year, we all rode up together, in a different vehicle. When we stopped and showed our IDs, the officer held onto his ID for a minute, checking something on his computer. Then he said he was free to enter and that he was no longer on that " list".

I'm sure their much stricter now, but back then, it appeared it was very hit/miss, or at least on this occasion it was.

DentonDoc wrote on Nov 30^th, 2010 at 4:54pm:

Can anyone think of something else that might be on your person (or at least in something like a fanny pack) that might serve as a fuel source ... something that you'd normally carry when in the out-of-doors? dd

The hand sanitizer is the key item that would almost always be with me.  That and bug spray.  Being a smoker, I always have a few sources of fire handy.

Neat story ST.  I wonder if the right thing to do is to come 100% clean & explain the honest mistake.  It's one thing to surrender the gun at the border, something else to smuggle it in.

I do wonder if they would let him pick it up on the way home.  Maybe Can customs would surrender it to the US officials.  There should be some provision for him to surrender & recover it.  After all, it's his legal property and any issues in the US are between him and the US.

There's no licence issued in any US state the supercedes the laws of the nation you are entering.  I'm not a hunter, but I suspect there's paperwork involved in brining guns from one country to the other.

I think if it would of been a state to state violation, he would of surrendered the weapon, explained it was an honest mistake and after providing proof of ownership and legal registration, pay any fines and probably get his weapon back.

Some states recognize concealed weapons permits from other states, some don't. There are books maps that tell travelers that carry legal weapons what states reciprocate and those that don't.

I think considering he had the pot, it was a foreign country, he just was afraid to take the chance. A felony conviction, even if it didn't result in jail time, would probably cost him his liquor licenses in Atlanta.

You can bring long guns into Canada with certain restrictions on types and magazine capacity. You need to fill out forms. I know bringing a handgun in for hunting is a problem, I'm not sure if you can? I'm sure that for a fee and with proper paperwork you can bring your legally registered US weapons across the border, if say you were going to Alaska via Canada.

Yes, no state law supersedes International Law, as it should be.

"Can anyone think of something else that might be on your person (or at least in something like a fanny pack) that might serve as a fuel source ... something that you'd normally carry when in the out-of-doors?"


Duh - TP (or AW if you prefer)

DentonDoc wrote on Nov 28^th, 2010 at 9:57pm:

Listed in order of flame strength: 1) petroleum jelly -- produces a strong, but initially sooty flame; container very near empty in 30 minutes 2) chapstick -- produces a strong, clean flame (only slightly less flame than petroleum jelly; container about 2/3rds empty in 30 minutes 3) alcohol-based hand sanitizer -- produces a small, nearly clear flame; container 1/2 empty after 30 minutes 4) vegetable oil (olive oil) -- produces a tiny, clean flame; container only 1/4 empty after 30 minutes.

5) Carmex -- produces a tiny to small, clean flame (after an initial sooty period); container 1/2 empty after 30 minutes.

Yes. TP will burn, but (butt) I don't want to contemplate how much it would take to last 30 minutes.

dd

What about balsam and spruce pitch, something that one does not have to carry and is widely available. :-?

marlin55388 wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2010 at 4:49pm:

What about balsam and spruce pitch, something that one does not have to carry and is widely available. :-?

GOOD IDEA, but I'm a little too far south to check out balsam and spruce pitch.  Pine pitch might also work, but even those are somewhat scarce in my area ... mostly hardwoods where I'm at.

dd

Is this quest for a fuel source for warmth or light...ease of ignition...?

I think we're looking for ease of ignition.  The ability to start fire.  If you can do that, and have a proper supply of firewood then you're golden.

Along the lines of pine pitch, the lower dead branches from evergreens are great for starting fire.  Bone dry, they catch easily and burn hot.

DentonDoc wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2010 at 4:38pm:

DentonDoc wrote on Nov 28th, 2010 at 9:57pm: Listed in order of flame strength: 1) petroleum jelly -- produces a strong, but initially sooty flame; container very near empty in 30 minutes 2) chapstick -- produces a strong, clean flame (only slightly less flame than petroleum jelly; container about 2/3rds empty in 30 minutes 3) alcohol-based hand sanitizer -- produces a small, nearly clear flame; container 1/2 empty after 30 minutes 4) vegetable oil (olive oil) -- produces a tiny, clean flame; container only 1/4 empty after 30 minutes. 5) Carmex -- produces a tiny to small, clean flame (after an initial sooty period); container 1/2 empty after 30 minutes. Yes. TP will burn, but (butt) I don't want to contemplate how much it would take to last 30 minutes. dd

Doc this is interesting to me.The nylon sheathe of the knife I recently picked up has a small velcro sealed pocket about the size that would fit a small leatherman. I am interested in putting an emergency fire kit in there. What would you use? Good waterproof matches I suppose but the striker is the weak link there IMO.

The accelerants tested were likely under ideal conditions :question. I wonder how the test group would fare under wind or even rain? My buddy put together a tiny kit for me with matches and a striker in a mini zip-lock along with a tiny bottle of white gas. Last I looked the white gas had evaporated even though there was tape to prevent accidental opening.

There are some commercial stuff available. I have also heard vaseline and cotton balls mentioned. Sort of want to stay away from anything potentially messy or odorous though. What should I use? Anyone? It has to be able to survive a dunking.  

mastertangler wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2010 at 5:45pm:

Good waterproof matches I suppose but the striker is the weak link there IMO.

I tear the striker off and use a waterproof match safe.

marlin55388 wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2010 at 5:13pm:

Is this quest for a fuel source for warmth or light...ease of ignition...?

From the original post in this thread:


DentonDoc wrote on Nov 28^th, 2010 at 9:57pm:

So, you are ditched and you'd like to have a little light, or a small flame that you can use for a little heat (I remember my dad talking about using a candle to heat his pup-tent during WW II).  Perhaps you want to dry out some small tender in preparation for making a larger fire. Here is my small fire/candle trial setup:  a piece of cotton yarn for a wick and a 44 mag shell casing for a fuel holder.  (For those not familiar with a 44 mag round, the casing is approximately 1 1/4" long with a 1/2" diameter ... makes a fair metal tube with one end capped.)  In each case, the candle was ignited by using a butane lighter flame for less than 5 seconds--in most cases, less than 3 seconds.  If the accelerant is not listed, either I haven't tested it or it wouldn't stay lit for at least 30 minutes, without re-light or tending.  Keep in mind that I'm only considering things that have a good possibility of being with me/on me during a canoe-type trip.

mastertangler wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2010 at 5:45pm:

Doc this is interesting to me.The nylon sheathe of the knife I recently picked up has a small velcro sealed pocket about the size that would fit a small leatherman. I am interested in putting an emergency fire kit in there. What would you use? Good waterproof matches I suppose but the striker is the weak link there IMO. The accelerants tested were likely under ideal conditions :question. I wonder how the test group would fare under wind or even rain? My buddy put together a tiny kit for me with matches and a striker in a mini zip-lock along with a tiny bottle of white gas. Last I looked the white gas had evaporated even though there was tape to prevent accidental opening. There are some commercial stuff available. I have also heard vaseline and cotton balls mentioned. Sort of want to stay away from anything potentially messy or odorous though. What should I use? Anyone? It has to be able to survive a dunking.

Petroleum jelly (Vaseline) on a cotton ball will ignite with little effort using fire steel.  I do carry a small lighter, but like you said it could be wet from a dunking.  Fire steel will work, even when it's wet.  Also, I feel that I have a better chance of manipulating a fire steel striker,even if my hands are cold and wet.  

I would recommend fluffing the cotton ball fibers just a bit before ignition.  This makes it easier to get the fibers to ignite ... down side is that in this de-compressed state, it will burn a little quicker.  Still, the impregnated cotton ball will give you something like 3-5 minutes of flame.  (This test was outdoors, dry with little wind.)

The "candle test" above are indeed in ideal conditions (indoors).  However, if I can get the accellerant ignite (by some means), it could also be useful in fire starting.  Also, keep in mind that my choices for accellerants was based on items that I might actually have on me while traveling in the back woods ... although vegetable oil was a bit of a stretch.

BTW:  My thinking on using a shell casing also involved a reasonably crush proof container for a few matches.  I found a rounded rubber "stopper" that fits the 44 mag shell casing.  Actually, what I found was a like a rubber door stop tip that is a snug fit inside the casing ... making the container at least water resistant.

dd

I find this thread to be interesting.  I have wondered what would be the best thing to carry for a way to start a fire.  Dd’s method of testing gives one measure of how good a fuel is.  I was looking for a fuel that would have the most heat output and still be safe to carry. Paraffin is about 18,000 BTU’s/LB.  There are some liquid fuels that are about 20,000 BTU’s / LB but I do not like liquids for this purpose.  The only fuel I found that was higher than paraffin was bees wax.  Bees wax is about 19,000 BTU’s / LB and similar to paraffin in storability.

I had the same question Marlin did. A candle lantern is great for taking the chill out of a tent but as far as a non-tent situation goes, I'd look for a small LED light (button batteries perhaps) that fit in the kit. Light on demand would actually be a good addition I think. A candle for a fire sure but not for light.

Wet birch bark lights with some time over a hot flame but there's always pitch and that doesn't get wet. Plus, you can always find dry tinder under something.

I often think about what I'd do in the different circumstances I encounter as I paddle along. When I think of an emergency situation, I think of dumping and having to abandon it all and swim upwind. Fire is never high on my imagined priority list as I hit shore. (I always just hope I'll not be presented w/ a cliff. :)) If there was a good place to start a fire safely, out of the wind ... I'd consider it. Getting wood would warm me up at least but after that, I'd be stuck tending the fire instead of watching for possible help and where my canoe/gear might be washing up or baring that, looking for stuff to make shelter....

Good to know about Carmex in a pinch. A nylon sheathe would work too I bet.  :D

db wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2010 at 7:37am:

I had the same question Marlin did. A candle lantern is great for taking the chill out of a tent but as far as a non-tent situation goes, I'd look for a small LED light (button batteries perhaps) that fit in the kit. Light on demand would actually be a good addition I think. A candle for a fire sure but not for light. Wet birch bark lights with some time over a hot flame but there's always pitch and that doesn't get wet. Plus, you can always find dry tinder under something. I often think about what I'd do in the different circumstances I encounter as I paddle along. When I think of an emergency situation, I think of dumping and having to abandon it all and swim upwind. Fire is never high on my imagined priority list as I hit shore. (I always just hope I'll not be presented w/ a cliff. :)) If there was a good place to start a fire safely, out of the wind ... I'd consider it. Getting wood would warm me up at least but after that, I'd be stuck tending the fire instead of watching for possible help and where my canoe/gear might be washing up or baring that, looking for stuff to make shelter....

In any case, I've got the light issue covered.  An LED bulb with 1" leads is now in my ditch kit along with a button battery wrapped in tape.  Put the leads on each side of the battery and re-attach the tape and viola!

Based on a youtube video I've seen, birch bark will ignite with fire steel even when wet.  The video host took the edge of his knife and scraped the bark to create a small bundle of tender, then it was ignited by the fire steel.  (I suppose the scraping accomplished 2 things ... helped to dry the birch and to reach that portion of the bark that was still dry.  Unfortunately, I don't have any birch near by to test this out.

I do remember a backpacking trip I took with my daughter to the Rockies one time.  On our last night out, it must have rained about 5 inches (I left one pot right side up over night).  We happened to be camped next to a huge cedar tree.  The next morning, to make a fire, I walked over to the tree and scooped up handfuls of completely dry tinder for the fire.

Since it not uncommon for me to be in canoe country early/late season, I've always been somewhat concerned about hypothermia, so I think fire is VERY important.  In that respect, I'm confirming to myself the most important thing you have have on you in a ditching is a good knife.  Yesterday, I pulled together enough natural items to make a working bow-drill friction fire tool.  The spindle was of a small section from a Sycamore limb, the spindle knob-a small block of oak, the fire board of a 1/4 " slab of cedar, the bow string of twine (same twine used for candle wicks in earlier test) and bow from a curved branch from a yard shrub (Photinia).  (I figure the twine could be replaced by any number of items ... boot lace, strip of cloth from my shirt, vine, I've even seen hickory bark twisted into a bow string.) After all parts were prep'ed for the job, I had a pencil eraser head sized ember going in under 10 minutes.  (I repeated the process to confirm that it wasn't a fluke.)  I figure I can blow that ember into a fire with a dry tinder bundle "bird nest."  (I'll see what I can gather from the woods today to form a viable "birds nest."

Slowly, but surely, I'm getting a few of my wood-craft skills back!

dd

That is just it...SKILL. And in wrapping your noodle around the possibilities your creating those skills; the tool that is the most important tool in any ditch...the noodle ;) BTW Birch bark will always burn; it has a resin/oil in it that is highly flammable. It is the way that I start all my fires up in that neck of the woods, and better yet one does not have to carry it . DB is spot on.

DentonDoc wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2010 at 5:00pm:

Based on a youtube video I've seen, birch bark will ignite with fire steel even when wet.  The video host took the edge of his knife and scraped the bark to create a small bundle of tender, then it was ignited by the fire steel.  (I suppose the scraping accomplished 2 things ... helped to dry the birch and to reach that portion of the bark that was still dry.  Unfortunately, I don't have any birch near by to test this out.

I've done this using one of those flint sticks that look like the key to the easiest lock to pick.  It's easy.  For fastest results, scrap off a bunch of the spark material into your tinder bundle.  Then give it a few good hard scrapes to make sparks.  

This is the most important fire tool for a ditch kit.  Works when wet.  Lots of models from lots of mfg to suit your preference.  The ability to gather good tinder & small wood is a basic camp skill.
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Quote:

I'd look for a small LED light (button batteries perhaps) that fit in the kit. Light on demand would actually be a good addition I think. A candle for a fire sure but not for light.

I have both brands listed, you get 2 lights in each packet.
Both clip on. One for ditch kit. The other could be kept in shirt pocket/pack pocket. Light is shielded from accidentally being turned on until needed, by a little plastic piece in the battery compartment.

For a night fishing light, you could dab a little red magic marker on lens.
Well worth the price. I wouldn't buy replacement batteries, cheaper to just get another set of lights..

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I started using wetfire a few years ago, it is very small & don't smell or leave a mess. It is also reusable if you choose to do so. They light instantly, but also extinguish fast & are immediately cool. I have used them while ice fishing right on the ice to warm hands... put it out & back in a small ziplock. They are reasonably priced also.

Here is a youtube video.
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I always have a plastic bag of Birch Bark handy before starting out and add to it as I go thru the first set of portages. That plus a flint stick and some Coghlan's Fire Paste and I can get a fire started quickly in most situations. The fire paste is available from most camping stores like REI. For the emergency kit the paste could be squeezed into a small plastic container.

drbill wrote on Dec 6^th, 2010 at 11:23pm:

For the emergency kit the paste could be squeezed into a small plastic container.

Or a spent shell casing!

Woods_Walker wrote on Dec 6^th, 2010 at 10:24pm:

I started using wetfire a few years ago, it is very small & don't smell or leave a mess. It is also reusable if you choose to do so. They light instantly, but also extinguish fast & are immediately cool. I have used them while ice fishing right on the ice to warm hands... put it out & back in a small ziplock. They are reasonably priced also. Here is a youtube video.   (You need to Login or Register

Wow WW
That's what's going into my ditch kit
[smiley=dankk2.gif]

Wetfire tinder came today. I ran it under some water and took a fire striker to it. I couldn't get it to light until I crumbled a small chunk of it into powder and it took off first strike.

This stuff is nothing short of amazing. It burnt very hot with a decent sized flame for a 1" cube. I was outside and it was somewhat windy (10 to 15mph) and it didn't go out. I was also surprised at how long the little cube burnt. I didn't time it but I would say it was close to 5 minutes. Certainly long enough to dry even wet tinder.

It is very light and would be perfect in a ditch kit. insta flame! [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Thank you Woods_Walker for sharing this.