I have a titanium pot. It has pluses and minuses. You best keep stirring your oatmeal with a mini GSI spatula or your raisins will likely burn. Of course the weight saving is what caught my initial attention. It heats up quickly but also cools off quick.

The cooling off quick has warranted some attention from me. Since most of my dinners on this summers planned trip are part freeze dried getting it properly hydrated without using endless amounts of fuel has become a concern for me. Cliff Jacobs mentions using insulated "cozies" in several of his books and that is the direction I have been thinking.

I had thought to make my own but stumbled on this website and this ought to make things easier. I like that the product has earned the "Backpackers magazine award" which I have learned to place great faith in. I like that they offer quite a variety of very specific sizes at a reasonable price. This should cut my fuel consumption rather dramatically as I can take it off the stove and slap it in the cozie and it will continue cooking and hydrating for quite some time after being removed from the flame. For those of you who cook anything that needs simmering for extended periods this could be a great asset and is very lightweight.
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If you want to save on fuel, like during some unexpected fire ban, filter rather than boil first. I simmer all my FD meals a few minutes either way. Maybe chunks of FD meat are better now but old habits die hard although I do use a hot pad on top and bottom because I can. One or the other does get heavy when forgotten and it rains overnight.

I had to replace an aluminum pot after many hours neglected. (Could have been a bad case of Apple Cobbler carbon - I forget. Anyway,) Mine developed an annoying pinhole drip at the bottom. I believe I looked into titanium at the time. For what I needed to replace, I don't recall much if any weight savings. but I do recall a huge difference in price so I went with the devil I knew.... I'd bet it now weighs half a pound with all the years of soot and carbon baked on. It's a good old friend and life is a game with soft rules.

Never used any cozie like the one mention above, all that I have used has been of the fleece persuasion...used more to the keep the creations being created warm during hydration and warm when off the single burner. Cozies are sewing machine ware, and wool has some nice flame retardant qualities...wool fleece.

I have also run Aluminium (Al), Titanium (Ti), and even Stainless Steel (SS) cooking hardware. Ditched the Al cuz I got sick of unbending the folds the pack put into it, and also a little scared of the consumption issues; they say that Al isn't particularly good to eat, and I too created a leaker. So then it was on to SS cuz the boy had a keen eye down at the outlet store. And hear I am at Ti in a weight saving mode. Ti is scorch worthy with its heat conduction characteristics ergo the need for a cozie or a socking cap...thank goodness for good stoves and Outback Oven heat defusers. Ti is difficult to burn holes in too.

MT have you done the math yet with your total masses?

marlin55388 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2010 at 3:36pm:

MT have you done the math yet with your total masses?

Dude I think I'm looking good. Should be able to double on every portage. Been hoofin it with 90% of the kit in place, 2 miles no problem. Lookin to get it up to 4 or 5 miles........ 3 times a week by spring.

I haven't looked at fuel consumption yet. So far I have 1 large size MSR can for every 3 days. 7 cans total. Seems about right with a little to spare but I rekon I should do a trial run with 1 can to see how it plays out  to be sure. I think the cozie will be key in fuel savings. Boil the water, add the FD and stick it in the cozie for 15 minutes. By then I'll have a little fishee cooked up. Dinner is served! HMMMMMM  :).

mastertangler wrote on Dec 26^th, 2010 at 4:31pm:

I haven't looked at fuel consumption yet. So far I have 1 large size MSR can for every 3 days. 7 cans total.

;D

db wrote on Dec 27^th, 2010 at 8:47am:

mastertangler wrote on Dec 26th, 2010 at 4:31pm: I haven't looked at fuel consumption yet. So far I have 1 large size MSR can for every 3 days. 7 cans total. ;D

Ok, you can poke fun at me, I'm down with that.

I'm willing to lug a little extra so I don't have to build fires or pump and prime or worry about fuel spillage. This is fast and easy. Just turn the knob and flic my bic.

To bad I can't give you my Al Pacino imitation ("you talkin to me") ;)

I'm guessin' that by the time you add the cozies to the Tit cookware, it will weigh as much or more than quality cookware... :-/

Hey Old Salt, my main man, how was your Christmas? Groovy I hope.

Your just jealous because you don't have a cozie and I do! (well, I will have one pretty soon) It's gonna be the trick and you know it!  :P

Seriously though, the weight on the cozie was very minimal. I also got the neophrene cover to protect the cozie. It will look like this;

Msr wind pro stove+bic inside evernew Ti 1.3L pot/w lid
Inside the cozie
inside the neophrene cover used to protect the cozie. What I like about the neophrene cover is that there is a little gap at the top which will allow me to put my windsheild for the stove. That was a loose item I was thinking about not taking as it won't fit inside the pot. Problem solved. It's coming together. :-* :-* :-*

I make several meals that have dehydrated meet in then and that takes a while to re hydrate.  I do not like spending the time at the stove to rehydrate so I bring my food to a boil and wrap it in a dish towel and put it in the bag that I keep my dishes in.  Then I go about my other camp chores.  By the time (maybe one hour) I get back to it will only be lukewarm. Usually it will take about 5 minutes to get it ready then.  I do not think my towel and bag is as good of an insulator as the cozy but it is with me already and it works good enough.

Jealous? No. Actually, I have a few cozies that I would have sent you, had I known in time you thought they were a good idea. I don't use them because it's just more stuff to fuss with. I just eat while its hot...

'Groovy' does not describe my Christmas. 'Different' and 'unplanned' are better words.

Quote:

To bad I can't give you my Al Pacino imitation ("you talkin to me")

I hope your fuel estimates are better than your movie line recall ;D

You've mixed up your Gumba's. It was the great Robert DeNiro as Travis Bickle in the classic "Taxi Driver" that uttered that famous line.

Pacino might work too ;) IF you used his famous line from "Scarface" when talking about your "cozie". "Say hello to my little friend"
Naw, without the M-16/M203 grenade launcher as an accessory, it's not the same ::)

mastertangler wrote on Dec 27^th, 2010 at 2:02pm:

db wrote on Dec 27th, 2010 at 8:47am: mastertangler wrote on Dec 26th, 2010 at 4:31pm: I haven't looked at fuel consumption yet. So far I have 1 large size MSR can for every 3 days. 7 cans total. ;D Ok, you can poke fun at me, I'm down with that.

DOH! I thought you struck a wrong key or something but ok, I'll play.

Looks like we're talking white gas, a big bottle is roughly a quart and a 21 day August solo trip? Close? For that I'd take two big bottles if there was a fire ban and no rain in sight.

What ever it takes but I'd seriously suggest looking at your consumption guesstimate a little closer. Gas is heavy and the bottles get lighter but not any smaller.

Wait! You have a neophrene cozy cozy? Dude! I have a sweet denim archery case paddle cozy my Grandma made. People always tease me about it. The handle is at the wrong location for balance with two paddles inside but it still serves a purpose plus I know they're all just jealous....  Happy Festivus!  :D ::) ;D

ST has the movie trivia down. 8-) I always get those guys mixed up :-?.

Db I'm talkin isopro. I guess I could be off target but it wouldn't be by much. I'll double check just to be sure but a can every 3 days seems about right (the bigger can).

I'll do some fish in foil on the grill once in a while while I watch my bobber to ;).

OS if you have ever had to rehydrate freeze dried food and had limited fuel supply you would see the need. It takes a while, and rather than spend 10 minutes simmering I can just set it into the cozie and set it aside. It will be piping hot and fully hydrated 15 minutes later and all I had to do was boil the correct amount of water. A considerable fuel savings.

And yes, I have a cozie for my cozie! 8-) How cool is that! I figure that will keep it from getting trashed. It is an important piece of gear I had better take care of it.

Hey Db how about a pic of your "paddle cozie"?

mastertangler wrote on Dec 27^th, 2010 at 10:16pm:

Hey Db how about a pic of your "paddle cozie"?

Don't have one, no reason to bother. KF or Magic could probably tell you that I do indeed have what was described and I'm not just talking smoke. I don't recall either making fun of it to my face but I wouldn't doubt they at least scratched their own heads if not each others on that at some point. At the very least one or the other probably noticed it.. It's all good.

Now that you mention it though, I repurposed one of two cord locks that came with a nice pair of boots to keep the drawstring closed. How cool is that? That's like a virtually forty year old smoke ring doing a figure 8 as someone walks by.  [smiley=thumbup.gif] [smiley=thumbup.gif]

db wrote on Dec 27^th, 2010 at 11:16pm:

mastertangler wrote on Dec 27th, 2010 at 10:16pm: Hey Db how about a pic of your "paddle cozie"? that I do indeed have what was described and I'm not just talking smoke.

I'm hurt :'(.

The thought never crossed my mind you were tellin a tall one rather I had never seen a paddle case out of Denim. I suppose I can envision it. What would be so odd about that? I was having trouble understanding why people would tease you about it. I thought perhaps it was sort of unique in a picturesque sort of way.

I have a paddle case from duluth pack that I paid a pretty penny for. A denim one from Grandma would be just fine and a good keepsake to boot. [smiley=thumbup.gif]

db wrote on Dec 27^th, 2010 at 11:16pm:

mastertangler wrote on Dec 27th, 2010 at 10:16pm: Hey Db how about a pic of your "paddle cozie"? Don't have one, no reason to bother. KF or Magic could probably tell you that I do indeed have what was described and I'm not just talking smoke. I don't recall either making fun of it to my face but I wouldn't doubt they at least scratched their own heads if not each others on that at some point. At the very least one or the other probably noticed it.. It's all good. Now that you mention it though, I repurposed one of two cord locks that came with a nice pair of boots to keep the drawstring closed. How cool is that? That's like a virtually forty year old smoke ring doing a figure 8 as someone walks by.  [smiley=thumbup.gif] [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Now that I would like to see....any video?

marlin55388 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2010 at 3:36pm:

I have also run Aluminium (Al), Titanium (Ti), and even Stainless Steel (SS) cooking hardware. Ditched the Al cuz I got sick of unbending the folds the pack put into it, and also a little scared of the consumption issues; they say that Al isn't particularly good to eat, and I too created a leaker. So then it was on to SS cuz the boy had a keen eye down at the outlet store. And hear I am at Ti in a weight saving mode. Ti is scorch worthy with its heat conduction characteristics ergo the need for a cozie or a socking cap...thank goodness for good stoves and Outback Oven heat defusers. Ti is difficult to burn holes in too.

I also ran this same sequence .. AL, SS, Ti (with some coated AL thrown in).  As Marlin suggest, if you want to take Ti, then you need to consider taking a heat diffuser if your are doing more than heating water.  They do scorch easy ... Evernew product a bit quicker than MSR version (I guess there is a reason they cost more).

I do generally take my MSR Ti set on trips, but IMHO if you want the best combination of everything (weight, heat retention, scorch resistance, easy clean-up, etc), the hands down winner is MSR Duralite (a coated aluminum product).  It seems to hold its coating a little better than Blacklite (another coating but a Duralite set equivalent).

Also, I'll admit that my heating habits are a bit different on a solo ... I save weight by eating directly from the cooking pot.  Who ELSE on the trip is it going to bother!

BTW:  I only take freeze dried foods on backpacking trips where the weight REALLY makes a big difference (but then only sparingly).  Its not so much of a weight (or even taste issue) with me as much as the rock in my gut after about 4 days of FD food.

However, if you are committed to the Freeze Dried thing, you might want to consider an alternative to the pot cozie, after all you are more interested in keeping the FOOD warm than the pot.  Go to one of your local Chinese food places that have take-out and see if you can get a hot/cold bag.  Its foil lined and designed to keep things hot or cold.  Then after you've added hot water to your food pouch, drop it in the hot/cold bag.  Its probably not quite as good as the cozie, but likely to be close enough with less volume to deal with.  (I guess you could just reuse a foil pouch that the freeze dried food comes in, but you'd have to clean it and it doesn't offer as much insulation.)  If you are uncomfortable raiding a restaurant for a bag, you can buy them or even something better (e.g.   (You need to Login or Register or maybe the   (You need to Login or Register).

dd

DentonDoc wrote on Dec 28^th, 2010 at 3:29am:

marlin55388 wrote on Dec 26th, 2010 at 3:36pm: BTW:  I only take freeze dried foods on backpacking trips where the wieght REALLY makes a big difference (but then only sparingly).  Its not so much of a weight (or even taste issue) with me as much as the rock in my gut after about 4 days of FD food. dd

I have heard that is a somewhat common malady with the freeze dried (that being some have stomach issues). I am fortunate in that other than a bit of gas I operate very well on it. Perhaps it is all the oats (fiber?) that I eat. Maybe that balances things out, not sure.

I usually don't bring freeze dried on canoe trips either but 3 weeks is a little different ball game from my perspective. My dinners for 3 weeks add up to a little over 4lbs. Now that my friend........is sweet!

The Titanium is prone to scorch if ones not careful. Fortunately I run the isopro and have extremely good simmer control. Still, you best be stirring. The GSI mini spatula   (You need to Login or Register makes an excellent tool to prevent scorching. If I hadn't already had the Titanium I would seriously look into the Duralite based on your recommendation, I'm a big MSR fan anyway.

mastertangler wrote on Dec 28^th, 2010 at 3:53am:

The Titanium is prone to scorch if ones not careful. Fortunately I run the isopro and have extremely good simmer control. Still, you best be stirring. The GSI mini spatula   (You need to Login or Register makes an excellent tool to prevent scorching. If I hadn't already had the Titanium I would seriously look into the Duralite based on your recommendation, I'm a big MSR fan anyway.

Yes, the GSI spatula is in my cooking kit, but since you are an MSR fan, I'll also offer the   (You need to Login or Register for your consideration.  I wasn't totally convinced this kit was strong enough to take some abuse, but it has served me well for going on 10 seasons now.  (Well, I take that back, the spatula stayed on a campsite on Kawnipi gleefully drying after morning pancakes as we departed a few years back, so it had to be replaced.)

dd

For a food cozie I sometimes use my toque.  Being careful not to get (a lot of) food on it.

I do most of my own dehydrating.  With the heat loss while waiting to re-hydrate I've switched to pre-hydrate.  At some point in the day I'll use a container with a good seal & add 1/2 - 3/4 the water necessary to re-hydrate.  Dump the mostly re-hydrated stuff in a pot with a little more water and by the time it boils it's good to eat.

you can make your own too.  One of our crew, Hexnymph on this board, made some with an old blue closed cell foam bedroll pad.  Cut it to shape and folded it around his pots, covered both inside and out with duct tape, and it's a perfect match.  Keeps things nice and hot while we wait for the food to rehydrate.  

db wrote on Dec 27^th, 2010 at 8:17pm:

Looks like we're talking white gas, a big bottle is roughly a quart and a 21 day August solo trip? Close? For that I'd take two big bottles if there was a fire ban and no rain in sight.

db, you need to share your fuel-conservation strategies with us. What kind of stove do you have?

I thought mt's one-bottle-for-three-days was pretty reasonable. It's what I'd usually budget for a two-person trip, and Ontario Parks uses it as a benchmark too:   (You need to Login or Register .

Joe_Schmeaux wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 12:47am:

db wrote on Dec 27th, 2010 at 8:17pm: Looks like we're talking white gas, a big bottle is roughly a quart and a 21 day August solo trip? Close? For that I'd take two big bottles if there was a fire ban and no rain in sight. db, you need to share your fuel-conservation strategies with us. What kind of stove do you have?

I use a Peak1 (hey, it simmers well).  I use to figure a pint a week for two pots of coffee a day, pack o' bacon, fish, pancakes ... those 20 minute scalloped taters to add Canadian bacon to ... but mostly FD & maybe fish mains. MMmmmm bacon. ;)

My last trip was two weeks so I took two pints plus the half or so that's in the stove. I came back with a pint plus but I took instant coffee and boiled most of my nightly libations and filled the thermos for morning coffee/oatmeal. Felt dumb for carrying the extra pint around but it was three year old gas.... (It does loose a bit over the years so I was mostly cooking on the stove just to get rid of it.)

Like I said, you need to do your own math and if after a week it looks like you won't make it you can filter rather than waste the killing boil time.

A gallon and three quarters (WOW) for three weeks seems like way too much space and poundage than necessary. (White gas anyway)


mastertangler wrote on Dec 27^th, 2010 at 11:55pm:

I'm hurt :'(.

Don't be.

Joe_Schmeaux wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 12:47am:

and Ontario Parks uses it as a benchmark too:   (You need to Login or Register .

Quote:

"Overall, however, the best way to judge your fuel consumption is to plan forty minutes of cooking time for dinner and twenty minutes for preparing a hot breakfast."

Ok. THOSE people are nuts!  ;D

db wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 7:16am:

Quote: "Overall, however, the best way to judge your fuel consumption is to plan forty minutes of cooking time for dinner and twenty minutes for preparing a hot breakfast." Ok. THOSE people are nuts!  ;D

Heh, yeah.  

  (You need to Login or Register has some neat info on stoves & fuel requirements.

db wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 7:12am:

... I use a Peak1 (hey, it simmers well).  I use to figure a pint a week for two pots of coffee a day, pack o' bacon, fish, pancakes ... those 20 minute scalloped taters to add Canadian bacon to ... but mostly FD & maybe fish mains. MMmmmm bacon. ;)... ... Like I said, you need to do your own math and if after a week it looks like you won't make it you can filter rather than waste the killing boil time.   A gallon and three quarters (WOW) for three weeks seems like way too much space and poundage than necessary. (White gas anyway)

That does seem like way too much fuel for 21 days.  I've tried some of the smaller lighter backpacking stoves over the years, but always come back to my Coleman 533.  Like the Peak1, it is heavier, but darned near indestructible and can simmer things for hours on end.  During 11-day August solo, used about 2 pints of fuel--morning coffee every day, 5 bacon/egg breakfasts, couple of fish fries, and boiled water for two beef and chicken stew dinners with hot and sour soup.  Brought in one 33oz bottle and had about 1/2 left at the end.    

For 21 days, I would think you'd need 2 large bottles, maybe three in case of fire bans or lots of rain.  Might also suggest bringing in purifier tabs instead of boiling water for drinking.


pghportager wrote on Dec 29^th, 2010 at 5:43pm:

you can make your own too.  One of our crew, Hexnymph on this board, made some with an old blue closed cell foam bedroll pad.  Cut it to shape and folded it around his pots, covered both inside and out with duct tape, and it's a perfect match.  Keeps things nice and hot while we wait for the food to rehydrate.

Funny.  3 weeks ago I bought a blue foam pad at Walmart for about $6.  Plan to make a "cold pack" for my eggs, bacon, pizza stuff using 1 gal frozen water milk jug.  Will have extra now for a cozy.  Thx for the tip.  
 

Quote:

I use a Peak1 (hey, it simmers well).

I use a Peak 1 Multi-Fuel. Not the lightest, but it has served me well for 20+ years. I think db's comment about simmering well, is the key to limiting your fuel needs and conserving fuel on your trip.

The Peak 1, will simmer for approximately 6-7 hrs. When I tripped with 3 other guys, only 2 of us had stoves. On a 8-10 trip we would often up with just the fuel left in our Peak 1's, even though we each brought 2 quart bottles of Coleman fuel :o

The reason we always ran low, was becasue while we were out fishing or getting wood, the other guys would want some coffee/hot chocolate/ dehydrated food water and would run the stoves on full blast unless I caught them and made a scene.

Thye couldn't get it thru their thick heads ( wasn't their stove/fuel or in their packs) so they didn't give a damn.

Yes, it takes a few minutes longer to boil water/cook meals, but the fuel savings is worth it and it's really about using your time wisely ;)

Breakfast on travel days, I have water pot full and ready to heat. I pack up gear in tent and then set the stove on simmer. By the time I've broken down the tent, packed everything but dry-fly and breakfast gear, the water is boiling and I'm eating oatmeal and having a steaming mug of coffee. Day's I don't travel, I get up put water on simmer, and visit the facilities. By the time I'm done and maybe pick-up some more firewood, the pot is boiling.

Meals, I bring water to boil, stir in whatever, and them put on simmer for 15-20 minutes. If you used a good cozie, you could bring to rolling boil, mix ingredients well and go fishing for 20 min or so.

I still bring more fuel than I need for a 2 week+ trip. Stove full, plus a quart and pint. Even breaking my rule and not trying, I usually end up with the pint still full, or maybe just the stove.

I think the simmering would extend fuel with any type fuel, as long as your stove simmered well.

Preacher,
Your ZEN Stove link was very informative and is now a bookmark ;)

I think solotripper may have hit this tangential nail on the head again. I never really thought about it but ya, seems to me if flames are licking at the sides of the pot you're wasting limited resources. His other comments brought back some memories as well. Like why can't people work something that has all of the basic directions printed right on it? "so they didn't give a damn" ya, RTFM! Anyway.

This thread is entitled cozies and now that I think about it, the original reason my friends gave me crap about my paddle cozy was because of my stove cozy - that little padded orange sack that came with my first (brown) Peak1. Remember orange and brown being trendy colors for kitchens and/or some friend's mother with the flowered toaster/blender/? cozies and the living room no one was allowed to enter? (Maybe that was a Wisconsin thing.) Anyway, at the takeout Carol spotted my paddle cozy ... It's funny to this day. Too bad me and mine are spending new year's eve at home this year.

I doubt this story has changed much over the years but I know I've told versions of it before. It was two/three trips for us before anyone even considered taking a tarp much less a stove. (We were DUM-dumb but I did admit the tarp was a comfy addition.) A few years later I brought a stove it was like sacrilege. Oooh! And the three FDs - in the original packaging that went with it? Ouch! Every time someone would open the food pack they'd make some smart comment or another. Although I have to admit it was fun as I did it too.

That was a simple, 3x2 portage, base camping trip. Three couples, ten days. Two days in, days out. Botta Bing Botta Bang Botta Boom. Second last day, we packed up in a cold rain that didn't let up and we found ourselves windbound after the third portage. It was miserable and everyone hit their tents but it was way too early for me so I got out and set up the tarp, only to get cold and lonely. Hey, I had a stove in a cozy and the dreaded FD Mandarin Orange Chicken so I made up a batch and coxed my girlfriend out. Slowly but surely, they all proceeded to come out of their tents one by one to what they all say was the best meal they ever had. (Can't stand the stuff myself anymore - too spicy. It did hit the spot that day though.)

Once everyone's spirits were up, we sat under the tarp w/ an extra windbreak around an admittedly smokey fire ... shared the last of the libations ... one of my all time favorite BW/Q memories. We all learned a lot about what it takes to be comfy/happy that day. A little effort at the right time goes a long way. Saving a bit for the rest ... thinking ahead ... that's another good idea.

solotripper wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 7:47pm:

Quote: Preacher, Your ZEN Stove link was very informative and is now a bookmark ;)

I am picturing you now ST......Early morning, legs crossed in the Lotus position, palms up on your knees, occasional snatches at hot coffee............. all while staring at a pic of the ZEN stove on your computer. Can you say UMMMMMMMMMMMM!!  ;D :D ;D

db wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 11:07pm:

I think solotripper may have hit this tangential nail on the head again. I never really thought about it but ya, seems to me if flames are licking at the sides of the pot you're wasting limited resources. His other comments brought back some memories as well... ...Once everyone's spirits were up, we sat under the tarp w/ an extra windbreak around an admittedly smokey fire ... shared the last of the libations ... one of my all time favorite BW/Q memories. We all learned a lot about what it takes to be comfy/happy that day. A little effort at the right time goes a long way. Saving a bit for the rest ... thinking ahead ... that's another good idea.

DB,

That's a great story...thx for sharing.  Reminds me of my experiences with my boys 15 years ago when they were barely able to walk let alone canoe...and they still remember it better than I...

db wrote on Dec 30^th, 2010 at 11:07pm:

Like why can't people work something that has all of the basic directions printed right on it? "so they didn't give a damn" ya, RTFM! Anyway.

Heehee.  I loaned my Whisperlite to my sister one year.  Upon returning she complained it was broken, said it never worked, was a piece of crap.  It just threw big sooty flames up 6' high.  After some investigation & showing her the instructions on the fuel bottle she blushed and complained no more.  RTFM sis.

Awesome story db.  A tarp, a hot meal & good friends makes miserable cold wet days the cozy trip highlight.

Quote:

I am picturing you now ST......Early morning, legs crossed in the Lotus position, palms up on your knees, occasional snatches at hot coffee............. all while staring at a pic of the ZEN stove on your computer. Can you say UMMMMMMMMMMMM!!

Lose the Lotus position and your pretty close ;D

Well, me little cozie came in the mail today and I'm right pleased. Fit my pot perfectly. I rekon a man could make one but for 12 clams+ship I think it's a good deal.

Why simmer when you can cozie? 8-)