I have finally gotten seriously interested in winter/spring paddling and tripping in everglades national park (ten thousand islands) and am trying to come up with a boat. It needs to be able to float shallow, handle big waves, and have enough stability to feel confident when standing (to load and unload gear off camping platforms).

My butt hurts after 5 hours in a kayak and I have considered putting a spray deck on my solo but I just can't picture climbing down a ladder and getting in my merlin without splashing.

I have only owned and paddled 3 canoes. A gruman, a plastic coleman and my Bell and I know there are a lot of boat gurus on this site so I thought I would fish for some comments. I'm thinking about one of these   (You need to Login or Register (expedition model). Anybody have any experience or comments with this style of boat?

Pointing you to   (You need to Login or Register &   (You need to Login or Register where YC/LRC can be found.  A wealth of info on the area and smart about canoes.

Preacher wrote on Jan 12^th, 2011 at 4:40pm:

Pointing you to   (You need to Login or Register &   (You need to Login or Register where YC/LRC can be found.  A wealth of info on the area and smart about canoes.

Get thee behind me foul tempter......I'm a QJ man at heart.......these are my homeboys......... my peeps bro!  ;D

I thought that design looked familiar.
Now I see the legendary canoeist/adventure Verlen Kruger was his teacher and mentor. He's carrying on the tradition it seems.
Never paddled one, but if you see where Verlen went in his, I think that will tell you all you need to know.
Not very portage friendly, but for your needs and in severe conditions, I don't think you could do better.

Google Verlen Kruger and you''ll see tons of info and video of his incredible paddling feats, many of them solo. I believe he paddled the equivalent of 4 times around the globe in his lifetime 8-)

mastertangler wrote on Jan 12^th, 2011 at 4:52pm:

Preacher wrote on Jan 12th, 2011 at 4:40pm: Pointing you to   (You need to Login or Register &   (You need to Login or Register where YC/LRC can be found.  A wealth of info on the area and smart about canoes.   (You need to Login or Register......   (You need to Login or Register.......   (You need to Login or Register  ;D

Many apologies!   ;)

Just messin with you Preachy old buddy ;)

I did some lookin as per ST suggestion and what he says is right on. This boat seems to be designed after Krugers sea wind except it is a little longer (finer entry?) a tad lighter (a little less strength?)  and less expensive.

I bet a fellow could do some fine adventures with it. How about circumnavigate Isle Royale? I bet that north shore would be fantastic.

Now I just have to figure out how to afford one. When I told my wife I was considering a 10 day trip doing the wilderness waterway the first thing she said was...."what do you have to buy now" ;D. She knows me better than I know myself! She's gonna have a fit :P.

Quote:

This boat seems to be designed after Krugers sea wind except it is a little longer (finer entry?) a tad lighter (a little less strength?)  and less expensive.

I suspect they went in that direction becasue the market for a canoe built for the conditions Kruger paddled in would be extremely small.

I bet only a handful of paddlers would push this current offering to it's limits.

I remember reading about his Sea Wind, it was built for conditions that only the truly skilled and risk taking would ever consider paddling in :'(

I wonder if it's "crushproof" ;D  Bad enough you have the gator situation out of control, now you have too worry about those damn Pythons gobbling you up :o  At least with that partially covered deck they can't drop out of low hanging limbs and get to you as easy ;)
You might want to replace your little Q knife with a big old machete, just in case one of those big suckers decides chubby/nerdy looks good on the menu ::)

solotripper wrote on Jan 12^th, 2011 at 11:04pm:

Quote: just in case one of those big suckers decides chubby/nerdy looks good on the menu ::)

;D ;D ;D

Dude, your livin in the past................don't you know nerdy is now the new cool? ;)  8-)

Hopefully by spring I can be svelte and nerdy instead of chunky and nerdy. ;D Workouts going good......Arms, chest and legs gettin bigger but my stomach doesn't seem to want to be left behind and is keepin right up!! :P

solotripper wrote on Jan 12^th, 2011 at 11:04pm:

Quote: This boat seems to be designed after Krugers sea wind except it is a little longer (finer entry?) a tad lighter (a little less strength?)  and less expensive. I suspect they went in that direction becasue the market for a canoe built for the conditions Kruger paddled in would be extremely small. I bet only a handful of paddlers would push this current offering to it's limits. I remember reading about his Sea Wind, it was built for conditions that only the truly skilled and risk taking would ever consider paddling in :'( I wonder if it's "crushproof" ;D  Bad enough you have the gator situation out of control, now you have too worry about those damn Pythons gobbling you up :o  At least with that partially covered deck they can't drop out of low hanging limbs and get to you as easy ;) You might want to replace your little Q knife with a big old machete, just in case one of those big suckers decides chubby/nerdy looks good on the menu ::)

Ryobi Chainsaw, machette not ;)

while that decked boat would be a better open water boat, its hard to see if it would be more stable than a Merlin ?

 
if it were me, I'd think up a better system for loading or unloading than just standing in a boat -  maybe a loop of rope around the packs that you could use to haul them up from the platform ?  or maybe set up a pulley system - maybe a loop of webbing with a pulley that you could set up on the top of the ladder, then be sitting or kneeling while hauling the pack up to the pulley ?  

One thing about loading and unloading gear, that cockpit width is less than the open Merlin's width, so it may be harder to get big packs to go in and out easily ?


I'd rethink the packing strategy - rather than big heavy packs, I'd probably go with more smaller bags, that would be easier to move from the boat to the chikee - maybe a duffle with just your tent and sleeping bag and pad, for one bag,  another with jsut stove and cook kit and one days food - something like that, so it would be easier to transfer stuff from the boat to the platform - you won't be portaging



and of course, all that water to haul - gallon a day at least

I'm with you on all that you said Mat.

It's only been a few weeks since I decided to go for this and have been gleaning some tips from a paddlers forum that concentrates its activities in South Florida particularly Everglades National Park.

I could easily get by with my Merlin if I wanted to stay with just doing the wilderness waterway which is roughly 100 miles of backcountry mangroves laced with cuts and intersected by rivers. I have a strong suspicion, however, that I will eventually be drawn to the outside where a decked boat of some substance will be desirable. This will likely end up being an annual trip of sorts (Lord willing). Come on down if you want. Spring of 2012 is the plan. Going to pick the boat up this summer. They are just an hour from my house in Michigan......go figure! I'll drag my usual paddling partner along and I bet he will end up buying one to........LOL

Hey MT

You talked a little about spray covering the Bell, CCS makes fine ones from what I have heard. I am sure that you could add a skeg and skeg  box and rudder to the bell and have a boat that would be more sea worthy and one that you already know well. ::)

Quote:

Arms, chest and legs gettin bigger but my stomach doesn't seem to want to be left behind and is keepin right up!!

# 1- Rule of weight loss :o
First place ON, last place OFF ;D
Building more muscle, increases metabolism, burns more calories, even at rest. Might have to tweak the daily calorie intake a little to get a jump start on your weight loss.

To lose 1 lb of body fat ( not just weight), you need to burn 3500 calories. If your already exercising regularly and with intensity, and can't or don't have the time/energy for more exercise, then you need to cut 500 calories a day out of your diet. 7 days you should lose 1 lb of body fat.

It take roughly 1600 calories a day to maintain healthy body function, so you don't want to go below that for any length of time. People do it, but over the long run it's harmful and you can't sustain it as a lifestyle.

marlin55388 wrote on Jan 13^th, 2011 at 2:54pm:

Hey MT You talked a little about spray covering the Bell, CCS makes fine ones from what I have heard. I am sure that you could add a skeg and skeg  box and rudder to the bell and have a boat that would be more sea worthy and one that you already know well. ::)

I've thought about it and if I ever get into whitewater tripping I think I can get by with the Bell with a spray cover.

The expedition looks like a seriously cool boat for what I have in mind. These are fairly new so the reviews are limited although the one I read was very positive. I think he has only made a dozen or so. The boat looks to be copied off the Kruger sea wind however and those reviews are almost all super positive for that boat.

My guess is that if these get some traction the price is likely to go up and not down. The sea wind is 5k which is out of reach for me. The expedition comes in $1500 less right now and if I put in 20 hours per day at work instead of 15 (I have a low hourly wage ;)) and be super sweet to the missus for a couple of weeks I bet one could end up in the shop suspended from the ceiling.

I am a firm believer in the old saying........"It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission". ;)

Just got off the phone with Scott Smith the owner and builder of the expedition and sawyer canoe company. Nice guy.

So far he has built 10 of the expedition by himself. He lacks proper tooling for production purposes so the process is slow and not conducive for mass production. I tried to work a deal but right now he has orders for 6 more and he won't be done until July with those. Might be time to get on the list.

If I knew someone who plunked down a hefty deposit on a boat they had never seen first hand, not to mention even paddled in, I would say they were nuts. I wonder if my insurance covers psychiatric evaluations  :P.  

So are you going to the get the mast option too? What is the rocker like...not spec'ed?

marlin55388 wrote on Jan 13^th, 2011 at 7:39pm:

So are you going to the get the mast option too? What is the rocker like...not spec'ed?

I will probably spring for the mast. Sounds fun right? Rocker?..........heck if I know. The guy that Scott paid to write the evaluation ( I'm kidding!!) said the boat was nimble and fast despite being "huge."   (You need to Login or Register

Some guy (I think Scott said Bill Morgan) is going to enter his boat in the everglades challenge   (You need to Login or Register

I think I want one.

I believe that boat would be a good choice.  I've met the owner of Superior Canoes, and if you are anywhere near the area, he almost always displays his boats at the Quietwater Symposium at Michigan State University the first weekend of March.

The Sawyer boats that are on the website are his attempt to revive the previous Sawyer Canoe Company.  He purchased the forms several years ago and is currently making those models.  One of my canoes is an old Sawyer and they are great boats.

The Superior is very much like a Kruger Canoe.  I have put my 17foot solo up against those boats on several occasions during the Hugh Heward Challenge (an event started by Verlen Kruger).  While those boats are heavy, they are fast and efficient.  Those who have them and paddle them love them.  I do believe that the Kruger Canoes are alos still being built.

If you get a chance look up the book "All Things Are Possible."  It is a biography about Verlen Kruger and would give you a lot of insight regarding that boat design.  

Good luck and enjoy your journey!

An interesting evening. I took her to the nicest place in town. Within 5 minutes she figured out that I had bought something and then on the first guess figured out what it was. What a woman!

It went over like the proverbial lead balloon. I patiently listened for the next 45 minutes on various "improvements" that needed to be made (all legit) while I munched my surf and turf ;). Word of advice guys.......if they're sore at you just listen patiently.

So it all seems to have worked out. I get a new boat and she gets more quality time. How she puts up with me I'll never know.

Is the Superior the same design as the Sawyer Loon? One of the boats Kruger derived from his original decked design. I think Mad River also made one (does the Monarch sound right?).

Pictures of a loon   (You need to Login or Register

Solus
what got me to pull the trigger so fast is thus.
I own and like kayaks. Their seaworthiness in rough water is something canoes can't compete with IMO. There are a few substantial drawbacks for me however. My rear starts hurting after half a day in one and I dislike the carrying capacity.....limited. That and they're not especially portage friendly. But I love the glide man.

So when I became interested in paddling the glades lots of factors went through my head. Big surf on the outside, nasty oyster bars, the super swift new and full moon tides, carrying capacity (water!!), stability to load and unload gear etc. I have spoken to several people who run carbon fiber boats with spray covers with good results but my heart wasn't in it. Besides I detest the thought of dragging my boat back and forth from Fl to MI every year.....hassle city with everything else I'm already pulling.

The biggest difference I can see with this boat as compared to the loon is size. Supposedly this boat can stuff a full sized deer in the hull with room to spare. A nice option should a man want to do a 10 day trip. I also suspect this vessel can handle considerably bigger water than the loon. That broadens paddling prospects considerably. While I may never be able to paddle South Island (tasmanian sea.....New Zealand) I might be able to swing a trip around Isle Royale. That was just fantasy land in the not so distant past. How cool would that be!  :)  

There's this one too.   (You need to Login or Register

The boat is in the works. I'll pick it up sometime this summer. Nightly "husband school" training sessions are also commencing. First 1/2 hour session was last night. Sort of fun actually ;) Nice little break from the night shift.

One of the guys on the Everglades Exploration Network (who provided the blasted link in the first place) sent me a PM with a pic of the boat rigged as a catamaran. What a hoot that would be! He wants to paddle it when I get it in.

After I get this thing wired in the Ten Thousand Islands we should have a QJ rendezvous in sunny south florida. Come one come all sort of thing. Could be fun. I'll introduce you to some of my finny friends. You will like them ;D.

Life is good....Thank you Lord! [smiley=thumbup.gif]

The islands are on my bucket list ;)

marlin55388 wrote on Jan 19^th, 2011 at 7:41pm:

The islands are on my bucket list ;)

Your a camera guy. Check out some of these photos a guy took on a trip from the everglades and the ten thousand islands. He's a paddler out of Colorado. I might have to get some telephoto lenses for my SLR and get a pelican case 8-).
  (You need to Login or Register

mastertangler wrote on Jan 19^th, 2011 at 5:57pm:

... After I get this thing wired in the Ten Thousand Islands we should have a QJ rendezvous in sunny south florida. Come one come all sort of thing. Could be fun. I'll introduce you to some of my finny friends. You will like them ;D. Life is good....Thank you Lord! [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Man, would that be fun... I'd have to find someone to watch Bernice. But it would be an awesome way to get pumped for the 2012 season....

I bet I would probably not want to come home except for the paddle season up here 8-)...one lens MT one lens...And then a boat, or rather a spray cover. Your dangerous

You guys bring your big bad selves down here and lets do some fishin. Yea Ben you might want to leave the dog home........it might get eaten :P.

Bad self ::)

Lets just say the day we put our paddles in the water will be a bad day to be a fish.

We can be "The Three Amigos".........Did you see the movie? On second thought perhaps a different handle would be better. I'll have to get back to you on that........... :D

One peek of the fish killing menace (note pic directly left) will invariably send fish into tremors of fear ;D............... (probably more like fits of laughter ;) )