Jimbo wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 8:02pm:

KF & I tangled with these bad-boy portages during our June/July trip last year.  Actually, that's not quite accurate.  KF sort of floated over them; I don't think he even got muddy.  Me?  I'm a slop hog.  I don't "float" over anything!Jimbo   8-)

This observation has been the source of a great deal of mental musing for me the past few years. What is the best body size and shape for efficient canoe country portaging and and more specifically, bushwhacking. The short squat muscular build of the voyageurs is legendary. Supposedly they were able to carry incredible amounts of weight and bulk over established portages. However, when you get into a situation where portages are poorly maintained or non-existent I think a different type of physique is ideal. On good portages, like most in the BWCA, I think the bigger and stroger the better. I've been with big strong guys that can easily carry double what I do on a portage. They don't move nearly as fast as I do but they can carry impressive amounts of weight. However, get off the beaten path and those same guys can become a liability. They aren't as nimble on rough terrain, they require more food and more importantly more liquid, and they tire more quickly. I know I am too small to qualify for the ideal body for portaging or bushwhacking (5'9" 155lbs). I avoid carrying more than 70-80 lbs under any circumstances. I have taken loads well over 100lbs but I now consider it foolish and unsafe. Rather, I would prefer to split a large load and literally jog back for a second load. Usually, though I am not in that much of a hurry but I have done it when motivated or when I thought it necessary. Unfortunately this pretty much rules out single portage bushwhacking which I would dearly love to be able to do, especially solo.
I'm interested in other peoples' thoughts on this subject. I'm beginning to think being big and strong is not necessarily an asset especially when the going gets really really rough. What do you think?

Of course the biggest thing is physical condition rather than height/brawn but that was not your question. The only place I see a big advantage to height is when big steps are required.  Such as stepping over that log without unloading or walking in 2 foot deep spongy moss. On well established portages I don’t see any advantage to being tall.  In the canoe a shorter person would fit better and create a more stable load.

I've given this question a lot of thought, too.  

At 6'2" and about 225, I am a good deal larger than that "ideal voyageur size."  Throw a 75+ pound pack on my back & there is close to 300 lbs sitting atop two points (ie. my feet), driving them ever-deeper into the mud, swamp, bog or whatever.  While those "two points" are my size 13 boots, I kind of wish I had size 20 boots.  That would spread the load out better - kind of like snow shoes on snow - and keep me from submerging ever deeper in the muck.  

Equally dysfunctional is the effect of that amount of weight pounding through your vertebrae down to your feet as they navigate hard rock.  Your lower discs in your back, your knees, & other connective tissues take quite a beating.  KF is absolutely right, IMHO, re: emphasizing using your legs more (ie. multiple-portaging, etc.) and sporting lighter loads.  I think this is especially true as you get older; your connective tissues are not as resilient as they once were.  The days of my hauling two packs (back & front) plus a canoe on one carry across a tough portage are LONG gone!  I do not move as sprightly as I once did!

This past year was a bit atypical for me.  I was coming off of surgery for sciatica but I thought I had recovered sufficiently to do an aggressive trip.  Turns out I struggled with my back issue a LOT more than I anticipated.  It's taken me another whole year - with a heavy emphasis on back-strengthening yoga postures - to isolate & strengthen the core muscles of my lower back.  Still, there is NO guarantee that the pounding I would take on a tough trail wouldn't beat me down again.

While I THINK I am now good-to-go on another challenging trip, you never know until you get there.  

I've been working out hard two hours everyday for years.  While I could probably stand to shed even a few more pounds, I'm probably as good aerobically as I am ever going to get for my age.  In my opinion, it's the OTHER stuff that kills you... knee & back issues, blood blisters (I lost three toenails & my feet were a bloody mess by the time KF & I reached Irvine Lake last year).  

Maybe there IS some ideal body type where issues like these are less likely, no matter what your age?

Tough portaging & bushwhacking can be a real learning experience.  You watch others around you succeed & fail.  You look for more effective practices that you might be able to adopt.  Likely, this means cutting weight wherever possible (or substituting high-tech light-weight alternatives) and, then, figuring out a sensible & effective portaging routine for the party you are travelling with over the terrain you intend to travel.

We have little choice but to make the most of the body type we happened to be blessed by.  I believe larger body types CAN be as effective as "voyageur" types... especially in their youth.  I believe larger body types may be more prone to sustaining damage to discs & connective tissues, etc., over time.  I believe us larger folks can work to minimize the effects of wear & tear... but you have to be smart & deliberate about it.   I also believe "lean & mean" gets you further than "fat & mean."

A year or two ago, the BWJ published a story about a voyageur referred to  as "La Bomba" (sp?).  This fellow went around 6'6" and 300 lbs, I think.  He was renown for carrying more packs for longer distances than anybody.  It was only his demonstration of such extraordinary strength that persuaded the trading company to waive their normal rules re: height & weight.

What I can't recall is this: for how many years did Mr. La Bomba actually function so effectively?  I guess I'll have to re-read that story.  I like my heroes as much as anybody else but I gotta believe wear & tear took a heavier toll on such a big guy.

Body type is certainly important but I believe it becomes more important the older you get.

That's how I see it, anyway.


Jimbo  8-)

P.S.  I really didn't address an important observation made by KF... that of larger guys needing to consume and, therefore, carry more calories & liquids.  THAT must have been a challenging consideration/equation for the fur trading outfit that hired Mr. La Bomba... would he carry enough additional weight to offset the amount he would consume?!  I LOST twelve pounds in as many days in WCP w/KF last year and, yet, without a doubt I consumed a good many more calories than my two lightweight companions (though KF's consumption of high-calorie adult beverages WAS prodigious!).  Anyway, when I consider the matter in this light, I have to give the edge to lightweights (a body type that the wilderness was working hard to GIVE me!).  Of course, this factor gets nullified IF you happen to be an EXCELLENT fisherman... THEY don't have to carry so many of their calories across portages or bushwhack terrain!

Jimbo   8-)

I would prefer to portage a 5'6", 110-120 hourglass shaped lass over a 5'3" 140 lb barrel-shaped lass anyday :)

In the immortal words of Popeye:

I yam what I yam, and I'm strong to the finich 'cause I eat my spinach.

Eat well, exercise regularly, and enjoy the bushwhack regardless of height/weight.  There may be an ideal body type for bushwhacking but I suspect not.  There are tradeoffs any way you look at it.  Taller/stronger excels in some situations, holds you back in others.  Small and nimble also can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on terrain.

I think when I am choosing companions for a bushwhack I'll be focusing far more on mental makeup and on how our personalities mesh than on body type.  Mental toughness or lack thereof is far more indicative of the ability to successfully negotiate a difficult bushwhack/trip than body type...presuming you're in reasonably good shape.  Personality counts for a lot too, because the stress level is going to go way up and magnify any personal differences to an extreme.

Excellent discussion as we all prepare for paddling season. Reading between the lines I keep seeing the importance of making the most use of that mass of gray between our ears. In my younger days and in racing shape for triathlons I portaged Grumman canoes while carrying  full packs. I do not know when I actually herniated the disc but do know it took five years to recover. Now, like KF my limit is 70 pounds and that is up for consideration. At 6feet one I am really topheavy when portaging. For the bushwhacking days, IMO caution and patience are the utmost virtues. I refuse to suck it up and push on to the end. Fatigue will win over the best body type and then accidents follow. If we really know our bodies and all their weaknesses we can plan accordingly.

Here's my 2 bits on the theory of relativity. 5'4", 135#, big and nimble footed,  70# pack and a saw. No dead weight, hour glass or not. All with a pistol personality, the shiny ivory gripped persuasion! Roar! ;D

Marten and the others are right Positive Mental Attitude is where it is at. That always carries the important weight; no matter if your a longer larger lever with a tippier center of gravity and a core to surface area that increases over heating. All that stuff is our heads anyways and the trail remains under foot, in the best.

Interesting question KF. I'm 6' & 166#. Dec 31, 2009 I retired and was having some trouble adjusting to all my free time. Also girl friend troubles, but that's cleared up, new GF (my age),,, old GF was 29, younger GF's are overated IMO.
Anyway I was running, biking, skiing, paddling tons to try and stay sane. One benefit, I got a lot faster at canoe racing last summer. But I was dropping weight and couldn't keep it on. I was adding powdered protein to chocolate milk, extra servings at meals,,,,I just kept getting leaner.

My main point, It's not just the big guys who can and need to eat a lot of food.

Also, I don't believe that rushing around or single carries really gets you much farther. I really believe slow and steady is better, mentally & physically. Always stay within yourself and you'll get farther. It's not what you cover in one day, but over the whole trip. Plus you can put in a longer day if you take it easy, and I believe have more fun doing it too.

Good Question KF

wrote on Feb 26^th, 2011 at 5:06pm:

younger GF's are overated IMO.

I utterly am in agreement!

Tale of La Bonga via Hillman
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Solus wrote on Feb 26^th, 2011 at 8:01pm:

Tale of La Bonga via Hillman   (You need to Login or Register

Ah, you see but MY guy was La BOMBA... a giant Latino dude who could carry YOUR "La Bonga" on his right shoulder and a 26 foot heavy wooden voyageur canoe on his left shoulder.  As I understand the tale, La Bomba also once harnessed a pollyhumper and "surfed" it & did the tango while crossing big Sturgeon Lake.

Once there, La Bomba met up with Paul Bunyan & Babe the Blue Ox and  smoked a few cigars with them while they swapped yarns.  Babe was partial to Cubans, I'm told.

At least that's how I understand it was....

Jimbo   8-)

I'm thinking long legs, big feet, doesn't photograph, fish or read.... Follow someone over 6'6" for a while and you'll see what I mean.

db wrote on Feb 27^th, 2011 at 6:15am:

I'm thinking long legs, big feet, doesn't photograph, fish or read.... Follow someone over 6'6" for a while and you'll see what I mean.

Early morning I would like to follow some broad shouldered hulk who sweeps all of the dew off of the portage trails. ;)

Seriously, what I was hoping was that we could put together the ideal paddle/ portage thoroughbred given the latest in modern equipment. Yes, I had the "La Bonga" article in mind when I thought of this and there will always be unusual exceptions to every preferred prototype. Back in the day the perfect voyageur was what 5'6" and maybe 180-200 lbs? Rarely though did they travel off trail so carrying prodigious loads was not unbelievable. What amazes me though is the diet they subsisted on during their travels. It seemed woefully inadequate for the amount of work they performed, unlike stories of the 19th century lumberjacks who were extremely well fed by comparison.

You guys are getting me nervous.  My sons and I have done a lot of backpacking in the Colorado mountains.  We travel fairly light and still the packs get pretty darn heavy very quickly.  Now we are taking a Quetico week in September, and it seems we have to carry all our normal stuff and add canoes, paddles, and all that also.  How do you guys do it?  And seems to us we'll have to be prepared for more rain than we get in Colorado.  I don't even know if we can carry our packs and a canoe too, because they stick up well above our heads.  If your GPS gets you close, can you find the portage easily?  Is the route marked?  One that bothers me is Maligne River to Poohbah Lake--I don't find a lot of details about it.  Am I going to spend all my time figuring out where the portage is and all the while carrying more than a 70-year-old can do?  Fortunately, my sons are in their 40s and strong.  What's the deal?

Relax Mountain paddler, you'll do fine.

I started out as a backpacker in the high country too. I find the canoe camping easier (at least so far) ;).

Most of the portages in the Q are fairly well trod although you may mistake a moose trail for one occasionally. If in doubt walk it for a little ways to see if it peters out before unloading.

I know you have GPS but I prefer not to head straight at a portage but bear off to one side and then follow the shore until I see the put in. Often, but not always, a portage will be the low spot on the horizon.

Sometimes portages are much less obvious. For example if there is a smooth rock facing that angles up substantially there will be no visible sign of the portage from your vantage point in the canoe. Look up toward the tree line as you paddle the bank in these instances. Often there will be an old blaze or even an old chain saw cut where trail work was done as a clue.

One thing to keep in mind however, are some of the trails may be a bit rougher than your typical hiking trail. Rock gardens are fairly common but usually short lived. Boggy spots are a bit more common than on a typical hiking trail as well. Fortunately these problem areas are usually on flat ground which helps.

You will likely have a fine time. Beautiful area with good fishing. Take your time on the portages and double or even triple portage (especially in the beginning when you are fresh and the packs are heaviest). Take your time and soak it all in. If you and your party develop a hurry-hurry attitude you will likely be cheating yourself. Slow down and take a breath and look and listen. The miles will add up and you will still cover plenty of ground, trust me.  

Thanks for the reassurance, MasterTangler.  We're going into Q at Beaverhouse and coming and getting picked up where Maligne River enters into Lac La Croix.  For no reason except my nickname is Wink, we are thinking of going to Wink Lake if the first part of the trip goes real smoothly.  We were told to do that by going Maligne River to Poohbah Lake and then Poohbah Lake to Wink Lake and then same route in return.  We were told to stay away from the boggy junk that is between Wink Lake and Maligne River.  Anyhow, most everything is very well trod and it doesn't bother me.  But one of the posts about Maligne River to Poohbah Lake said they looked forever for it and finally gave up.  And so I was imagining doing that at 70 years old, walking in heavy-duty mud, carrying more than by back will handle, and still not knowing where I am going.  You are very reassuring; thanks.  Is this double portaging thing the norm?  We wouldn't even dream of such a duplication of effort in our previous mountain experience.  What do most folks do who are up in years?  Is the double portage thing the norm?

There are lots of very experienced folk here at QJ. I have not trod the portage in question but if you keep checking back someone else has and will very likely lend a helping hand. Good folk in these parts when it comes to helping out.

In my world double portaging is very much the norm. There is no duplication of effort as you are not carrying the same items across twice ;). Triple portaging is not out of the question for some folk either especially if your goal is base camping and you want lots of "goodies". The portages on average are fairly short compared to hiking in the mountains hour after hour. If you insist on carrying heavy loads so you don't have to double so be it.

My suggestion would be to plan on doubling especially your first time in. Then evaluate your gear selection for future trips and having had a better feel for the lay of the land you can better understand what needs to happen to single safely and effectively. The flip side is if you plan on singling and have very heavy loads the fun factor may decrease and you might set yourself up for a fall and get hurt. And for what? So you could save 15 minutes? Besides, the walk back unencumbered through the woods after being mostly on the water is very nice. You get to feel and see and hear the wind in the trees (and the skeets buzzing in your face ;D). This is also a good time to take pics.

Thanks.  Wow.  You must have a bit of the philosopher in you.

M_P -

My background ... a committed backpacker until I reached 60.  Now, I'm transitioning into more canoe travel.  (For these old bones, it is nice to spend most of my day without a pack on my back and enjoying the scenery going by.)

Generally speaking, you're going to find the conditions of portage trails to be poor compared to most hiking trails in the Rockies.  Won't be facing anything like the vertical climb to reach Sky Pond in RMNP, but I've sometimes come upon a point in the trail where my initial impression is "yeah, RIGHT!" based on a step or two I'll need to make to get over a vertical rise/fall.  More often than not the elevation change is very minor, the issue is more that the rock face is granite and if its wet, you'll have little traction.  

So, as previously mentioned, the issue really isn't the load you can carry but what you can carry safely.  While I can carry 120 lbs, I feel I can safely carry about 70 (I'll usually limit to about 60 on hikes in the Rockies).  So with that number in mind, I break up my load in such a way as not to exceed that number.  For me, that translates into double portages ... food tends to be a relatively hefty mass since all of my trips are over 10 days.  For individuals this hiking experience, you'll find that walking with a canoe overhead will feel unwieldy ... but you will get use to it.  It does make negotiating deadfall "interesting" at times.

Good new for the trip is that you don't have to suck wind because of the altitude.  The bad news is that you'll sometimes find yourself wind bound.  Also, you might want to think about what you'll do when you can't get a tent stake in the ground (it happens ... some campsites are on rock slabs which might have only an inch or two of actual dirt covering it, if that).

As far as finding portages, a couple of other things that might tip you to a location ... bent grass along the edge of the forest, an uncharacteristic gap in the trees at ground level, exposed roots that show a bit of scuff, rocks with unnatural markings, unusual colors on slightly submerged rocks (gel coat residue).  But, my experience is that if you are patient and do a little searching, the portage will "show up."

dd

I'm on the side of mental toughness being at least half of the equation, being in reasonable shape aerobically/anaerobically the other half.

Body type as someone else mentioned has it's pluses/minuses depending on what your attempting to do.

I used to backpack with a guy who had a 38" inseam, even though he was only 6' tall. On a relatively flat grade or stepping over logs, he could out-walk me any day. He rarely led the route though, becasue he suffered on the uphills/downhills. He also was a very moody person, which translated into others never knowing who was going to show up that particular day. So to me, being mentally tough, not a whiner/complainer means a lot.

You also need to know your limits and not let your ego rule the day.
Go to any gym and look around, you have any number of people, usually male, who are sacrificing form, to keep up with the other guy(s).

I double portage, even triple if the conditions warrant. If my life depended on me risking personal injury to make it out or save someone else, you could load me like a mule and I'd go until I couldn't go anymore.

That said, unless it's an emergency, you don't need to impress anyone, you just need to carry your share of the load, and enjoy the trip.
Common sense should rule the day especially on any kind of wilderness trip. If 3x trips across a slippery/wet granite slope is quicker/safer than staggering under  huge 1x trip load, then that's what you should be doing, solo or in a group.

Solo, your only limited by your personal strengths and weakness's, physical/mental. In a group situation, it's the weakest link in the chain principal. The trip route/gear should be based on what the " average" abilities of the members are, not the above avergae one's, unless they/you are able and willing to do what the others can't :-/

You can always increase the difficulty/range of your route if you find you've underestimated everyones abilities,  but sometimes it's hard to scale back and keep everyone happy if you overreach ;)

Thanks DD, Solo.  Good insights.  


You guys on this site are great!  Good insights, honest opinions based on your own experience, supportive encouragement.  I'm ready to tell my boss I'm gonna take time off in October also--I'm pretty stoked about the trip I'll have in September.  And with the double portage thing, I might even bring a better sleeping pad for these creaky bones.

Another vote here for taking it easy the first time around.  Not only your portage load but also your route.  You can always ramp it up the next time but if you try to do too much the first time there probably won't BE a next time.  The learning curve flattens out a great deal after the first trip.

Yeah,  the trip would be a snap if I skipped the Poohbah/Wink sidetrip.  Would probably have time to base camp a night or two and just meander and explore for a couple lazy days.  I mean, our objective is to enjoy ourselves, not to set up some canoe equivalent of doing 200 pushups.  In five minutes.
And if we base-camped a couple days, and did some little circle routes from there, the double portage thing would become totally moot.  I could forget Wink Lake (at least for those two days), and use this little winking guy instead:   8-)
By the way, our primary route is Beaverhouse, Quetico, Jean, Sturgeon, and Maligne River.  It'll be wonderful.

Thanks, Snow Dog, for the advice.

M_P -

Just keep in mind that, just like downhill skiing, canoeing also involves technique.  The better your technique, the less effort it takes.

For example, I took my 30-something son and son-in-law on a canoe trip a couple of years back.  I made it a "baby" trip as far as effort was concerned.  I thought it might be too easy.  My son was running marathons and my son-in-law is very athletic and always in the gym.  At double their age, at times I felt I was dragging THEM.

Also, keep in mind that a fall canoe trip can be like a fall backpacking trip.  I usually tried to finish up any hiking in the Rockies before the 3rd week of September ... too much chance of getting into some serious snow fall at altitude.  This season, I did my first fall trip to Quetico.  It felt colder/wetter than my typical mid-May trip.  Yes, it was an anomaly, but then that's weather for you!

As for me ... I've got the PERFECT body shape.  Its just that the portages are too long and someone added extra gear to my pack!   ;D

dd

DentonDoc wrote on Mar 1^st, 2011 at 7:55am:

Just keep in mind that, just like downhill skiing, canoeing also involves technique.  The better your technique, the less effort it takes. dd

 
So true DD, a lot of planning goes into an efficient canoe trip. A sound plan for the portage encounter can help ensure pleasant memories of a canoe trip. Fighting to pull an oversize pack with its tight grip to your canoe wastes a lot of energy. You are breathing heavy and not a step has been taken. Now you get it up onto your thighs and waddle a few steps and plop it down, still no progress across the portage. This process is repeated until everything is on dry land. Now things are hoisted again and deposited at the other end of the portage. One more lifting of the pack and you are cramming things back in their place. :(

An easier way if conditions allow, tie the canoe  and lift out a pack that fits loosely in the canoe and put it on your back. Grab the other items the plan requires to transport on the first carry. On the other end of the portage set it close to where you will be setting the canoe in the water. Even if your body type isn't perfect and you don't run marathons this will help you to be  :)in the afternoons.

You guys are making the learning curve for my September trip look better and better.
Thanks, Marten.

[quote author=DentonDoc

As for me ... I've got the PERFECT body shape.    ;D

dd[/quote]

Me too, I just ask for a push and I roll to the other end.

I just hope I can do all this into my 70's. Mtn Paddler will do fine, it will be fun to read your trip report.

If you're healthy, you've got the right body.

At 6'0" 210 lbs, I'm way too big to ever be competitive as a runner. But I like running, it's good for my back, and unlike all the competitive runners I've known, I don't have knee problems, achilles problems, stress fractures, etc  etc. So I'm not complaining.

I am another who hikes and canoes. I think you will find the portages in Q really easy compared to backpacking, even though your load might be a bit heavier. No quad-killing 1000 m elevation gain switchbacks for example.

For me, it was always a struggle to get away from the every-ounce-counts backpacking mentality, and accept double portaging as no big deal. DD's weight limits are about right for me too (hiking and portaging), so don't feel intimidated by the voyageur numbers you read either !

None of the portages on the route you mentioned are killers. Check QJ's portage database for details: sometimes not all maps show the portages correctly. I think one of the portages south of Jean was shown way off on (?) the Fisher maps, and I lost a half-day once because of it.

All of your wilderness backcountry skills are still valid in canoe country. The only difference I've found is a lot of the regs use waterproof plastic barrels for food storage instead of daypacks. You can spend money on them (REI etc), or sometimes you can get something just as good for free from Greek food stores who import their olives in throwaway plastic barrels which work just as well.

Quote:

What is the best body size and shape for efficient canoe country portaging and and more specifically, bushwhacking.

To borrow from another thread.
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My two cents:

Mental toughness, combined with power/strength, endurance and good balance = a good portager.  Intelligence and experience are assumed in this equation.

My thought are this.... if the person is a good woodsman, who can safely quickly & confidently move through a variety of terrain & conditions, then their size is less on an issue.

I am a big guy & have never had issues traversing through terrain efficiently.... I learned a long time ago how to move through the woods. Keep your center of gravity at your core, take smaller confident steps, go around what you can & always step over an obstacle, not onto it.

With that said, I believe athletic type people like in any other sport are in the best body condition.... regardless of size.

Troy

I'm not sure there is an ideal body size for canoe tripping.  I've seen big, tough football-player types that were wimps on portages.  My wife and other women I have traveled with in the far north, on trips of over six weeks in length, are only in the 5-2 to 5-4 range and have done portages of around three miles in length.

I'm 5-10 and 155 pounds, 49 years old, and have yet to meet someone my age that can carry an 80-pound Old Town Tripper like I do.  Not bragging, but just stating a fact.  

I throw a ball like a girl, though :).

Like anything physical, it's more a matter of skill and conditioning that comes from spending a LOT of time on the trail.

Arctic wrote on Mar 6^th, 2011 at 12:42am:

I'm 5-10 and 155 pounds, 49 years old, and have yet to meet someone my age that can carry an 80-pound Old Town Tripper like I do.  Not bragging, but just stating a fact.

Dang Arctic, you must be all gristle. I think 80lb's of boat would likely ground me into the duff within a mile. Actually it would probably be closer to 90lb because I would need 5lbs of foam on both shoulders ;D.

I guess a man would just have to get used to it. Or better yet have a female equivalent to the la bomba guy......"Hey honey, can you get the boat".......

Mountain_Paddler wrote on Feb 28^th, 2011 at 5:48am:

You guys are getting me nervous.  My sons and I have done a lot of backpacking in the Colorado mountains.  We travel fairly light and still the packs get pretty darn heavy very quickly.  Now we are taking a Quetico week in September, and it seems we have to carry all our normal stuff and add canoes, paddles, and all that also.  How do you guys do it?

M_P - the only comment I'd add to all the other good posts regarding your trip is to acknowledge the obvious -- you're going to have less daylight on a fall trip.  Means less light for paddling and more dark in camp.  I like to bring a small lantern of some kind on fall trips, as I spend more time reading in my tent than during spring/summer trips.

prouboy

Mountain_Paddler wrote on Feb 28^th, 2011 at 5:48am:

You guys are getting me nervous.  My sons and I have done a lot of backpacking in the Colorado mountains.  We travel fairly light and still the packs get pretty darn heavy very quickly.  Now we are taking a Quetico week in September, and it seems we have to carry all our normal stuff and add canoes, paddles, and all that also.  How do you guys do it?  And seems to us we'll have to be prepared for more rain than we get in Colorado.  I don't even know if we can carry our packs and a canoe too, because they stick up well above our heads.  If your GPS gets you close, can you find the portage easily?  Is the route marked?  One that bothers me is Maligne River to Poohbah Lake--I don't find a lot of details about it.  Am I going to spend all my time figuring out where the portage is and all the while carrying more than a 70-year-old can do?  Fortunately, my sons are in their 40s and strong.  What's the deal?

MP; Leave those backpacking packs at home, they don't fit well in a canoe; get or rent some Duluth Packs.  I've canoed the Maligne River.   I don't use a GPS, but I use map and compass;  a GPS will help you check your location. There is one streach of the Maligne River below Tanner Lake where you have to fight your way paddling up a current, but September it should be okay.  Follow the maps to find the portages and note which side of the river they are on the map, generally they are fairly logical and easy to find.  Portaging is generally along short portages.  I'd suggest double portaging so you don't kill yourselves carrying a canoe and a pack at the same time.  

starwatcher

wrote on Feb 26^th, 2011 at 5:06pm:

My main point, It's not just the big guys who can and need to eat a lot of food.

I'll second that.

Aside from the general conditioning, I target my shoulders.  These are the first muscles to ache when portaging a 70# canoe and always seem to give out before legs, lungs, etc.  Experimenting with homemade yokes pads has helped to increase comfort level.  Another thing can be said about pack comfort.  If the pack transfers the weight of the contents properly to your torso and is comfortable, then amount of weight becomes relative.  For this purpose I've enjoyed the backpackers style packs for the heavier content.  Those having internal frames has helped them fit the canoe.  By removing the forward thwart, they easily lay in, 2 side by side lengthwise with the canoe and remain below the gunnels.

Other things being equal, good conditioning results in less time over the portages and an ambition to continue on when others are experiencing fatigue.  It is important to have that extra bit of reserve at the days end to prepare camp and offer leadership to your trip mates.  Energy level is a factor with mental toughness.

-YB

Yellowbird

I'm curious as to how you train your shoulders for carrying a boat? I have little problem carrying a 70+ pound pack for days on end in the mountains (as long as I have my one alleve tablet per day :) ) but slap a 55 lb Bell northwoods on my shoulders and I'm hurtin at about 1/2 mile. What a wimp ;). Maybe it's the thin hard closed cell foam that my buddy insists on using, (ya think that might have something to do with it ;D)

Anyway, just curious as to what people do to train shoulders to carry a boat. I didn't know there was such a thing.

I think a good yoke pad is a big thing. Use a good one and you'll never settle for a thin hard foam pad again. Although some people swear by the countered all wood yokes that are cut to distribute weight across your back and shoulders.

As for exercises, Overhead presses with dumbbells are good, but just simple shoulder shrugs with the same are great too.

Just keep dumbbells close to sides of body and " turtle" up and then shrug your shoulders back and lower. Start light, maybe 10# or so and do a few sets of 8-12, every other day. Work you way up to say 20-25lbs.

Unless you doing a lot of serious overhead/neck work like a football player, you'll find these smaller muscles in "normal'" people fatigue quicker than you might think.

Better yet IF your with a partner and he insists on the thin pads, you carry the  heavy pack and let him carry the canoe ;)

I was thinking more along the lines of getting some sort of method to resemble the pressure of a boat I guess. I do lots of regular shoulder stuff. Pretty satisfied with that.  

It sounded like YB had some sort of special training method. I dunno.

MT, there's always the plain and simple method of going for a hike with a canoe on your shoulders. I haven't done it a lot, told myself I would do it more than I actually have, been some years I've spent a couple weeks walking a mile or so a day portaging my canoe. Seems to make the "real" portages easier on the shoulders.
The other thing that worked well is I used to work as a delivery guy for a lumber yard so I tried to go the extra mile on customer service by carrying lumber to exactly where people needed it no matter how far it was because it gave me the added bonus of doing a lot of walking with heavy long stuff on my shoulders. Not exactly a canoe but every bit counts.

Our bodies are all a little different, even down to the squareness of our shoulders. Check your profile in the mirror and then compare it to the shape and slant of your portage pads. You may find that a large pad has only a small area of contact on your shoulders. If it does then you can shape the pads to fit.

As for conditioning for portaging the canoe I find I need to haul the canoe daily before a trip to toughen up the shoulders. IMO preparing this way will prevent our shoulder area from becoming inflamed and tender. I worked out all winter and the years first bicycle ride on Sunday went fine. When I got back on the bike on Tuesday-OUCH my rearend. I think the tenderness was the same type produced on the shoulders when I first start carrying the canoe each year. All bikers know the first rides will make us a little tender, I think the same goes for the first days of a canoe bobbing and squashing down on the shoulder tissue.

mastertangler wrote on Mar 9^th, 2011 at 7:09pm:

I was thinking more along the lines of getting some sort of method to resemble the pressure of a boat I guess. I do lots of regular shoulder stuff. Pretty satisfied with that.   It sounded like YB had some sort of special training method. I dunno.

Nothing special here MT.  My thoughts are to toughen the muscles a bit. There is a machine at the gym that isolates the deltoids.  It sits you with your upper arms down, then you rotate them out and up to horizontal against a resistance.  Another one I like is to hold the dumbells in front of the waist and raise them to chin level.  This works deltoids, biceps, and the muscles between neck and shoulders (name of ??).  I agree the vertical shoulder press is good, but need to avoid because it agrravates my lower back when stacking enough weight to do any good.
My yoke pads are made up of a 3" thick piece of open cell furniture cushion over a 1" piece of closed cell material which has more stiffness. The idea is the softer furniture cushion mushes down over the shoulder and distributes the weight to a larger area.  The stiffer piece is a secondary cushion as the soft foam will compress solid where the load concentrates.  I also keep the pad assembly slightly loose so that it can be bumped laterally along the yoke while carrying.  Helps to find the sweet spot and then to allow the shoulders to relax.

KF,
You might be interested in an encounter I had on the Monument Portage. I met this solo dude that seemed to fit the build of the ideal voyaguer.  He was single portaging, one large pack hanging low off his back, another on top of it supported by a tump line, a third hanging from his teeth.  How he had then gotten his oversize wood/canvas canoe on top this load is anyones guess.  He grumbled something in French as he passed by.  I apparently didn't yield the path quickly enough.  He looked vaguely familar.  I later asked my wife, "was that . . . ?" "Yep."     (You need to Login or Register

-YB

Not so much for muscle building but for toughening up the shoulder area for the pressure and friction of a yoke and canoe hauling is to hike with a loaded backpack or more specifically, a rucksack. Forego any kind of waistbelt and let your shoulders do all the work. I load mine with 30lbs of sand and set off on a fairly rugged trail. There is definitely some tenderness across the shoulders the first few times until the area toughens up for the season.

Kingfisher wrote on Mar 11^th, 2011 at 5:34am:

I load mine with 30lbs of sand and set off on a fairly rugged trail. There is definitely some tenderness across the shoulders the first few times until the area toughens up for the season.

I use the same idea, except I use left over plastic water bottles (refilled with tap water).  Its a bit cleaner than sand and you can add in known increments of weight.  And if a water bottle springs a leak ... well, its just water.

I started carrying a pack on my walks beginning March 1.  I still do the same 5 1/2 - 6 miles and try to keep the same pace as before I added the pack.  Its usually 1.5 - 1.75 hours for my route, which is mostly over mountain biking trails--narrow, lots of rocks, some climbing/descending, etc--this is about as rough a trail as I can find in my area.  And to help you keep your focus, you have kamikaze mountain bikers headed right for you that you have to step out of the way of.

dd

DentonDoc wrote on Mar 11^th, 2011 at 5:48am:

Kingfisher wrote on Mar 11th, 2011 at 5:34am: I load mine with 30lbs of sand and set off on a fairly rugged trail. There is definitely some tenderness across the shoulders the first few times until the area toughens up for the season. I use the same idea, except I use left over plastic water bottles (refilled with tap water).  Its a bit cleaner than sand and you can add in known increments of weight.  And if a water bottle springs a leak ... well, its just water. dd

I started out with frozen gallon jugs of water and that worked pretty good especially in the summer heat when it functioned as a sort of back cooler. The only problem was that the ice/water was too bulky and I didn't have any room in the pack to carry anything else. The sand provided the weight at about half the volume and it conforms to the back better.

Weights in a blanket the quickest method of all. Add a few pounds each trip. Unfortunately I have to hike through a somewhat urban area, but I try to climb up and down little walls as I walk, plus walk on slanted curbs to build up the ankles. I know MT was asking specifically about shoulders, and conditioning them to the friction and pressure, but this beats up the shoulders too.

-- kypaddler

Dudes
I've been rockin. I'm up to about 3 miles per day with my full pack and bags. Of course it's flat so I'm not sure it really counts that much but I'm movin along pretty good. I've been able to add strength workouts into the mix as well. Knot between my shoulders is all but gone. As soon as I hit 4 miles per day for a week it will be time for some cross training. I went from 207 to 194 and now it's coming off quicker around the middle.

What I'm most pleased with is recovery. When I started in Oct. I was getting halfway through a video or a walk and I would get mentally tired. Like I wanted to take a nap. That was very much new to me. I understand getting physically tired but mentally tired from physical exertion has never happened to me before. (it's the big five "O" baby!). Now I'm just ready for more and lovin it. No more being tired! Still haven't got the swagger though.........probably won't get that until after the trip ;).

I have some folk to thank. If I hadn't been encouraged to bite off an ambitious trip I would of never thought to get into decent shape. Once I get into decent shape I have full intention of staying there. Never underestimate the power of being an encouragement to someone. Just a few positive words can potentially change some ones life. (one thing leads to another.....but it has to have a start.......a seed that is planted)

Well, enough philosophizing. My sincere thanks....you know who you are.

Al




 

Instruments of positive change are a good thing!

mastertangler wrote on Mar 18^th, 2011 at 12:57am:

Dudes I've been rockin. I'm up to about 3 miles per day with my full pack and bags.

WOW!

Three walks this week: Monday (5.7 mi), Wednesday (6.25 mi), and Friday (5.5 mi) but my pack weight at the moment is only 20-25 pounds.   Today was especially difficult ... wasn't really mentally ready for 85 degrees and sunny!

Time to step up the weight in my pack.  (BTW Kingfisher:  I can't DRINK sand!)

dd

Excellent DD! Keep on truckin [smiley=thumbup.gif]