These methods may be novel to many of you. They were to me when I was first exposed to them. As a flat lander from Michigan who moved out to Washington and worked at Mt. Rainier the world of climbers and climbing was foreign. I was resistant at first, but having plenty of opportunity to put various methods to the test I am convinced of their effectiveness. Given the relatively modest elevation changes in canoe country some may question the need for such methods. Fair enough, if you are in primo shape and can really roll these might not be for you. But, if your canoe trip is one of your big "workouts" of the year I can promise you this will make your life much more comfortable.

I use them selectively. If it is early in a trip or a hill is especially steep I downshift. Now I take a certain amount of pride in the discipline required to execute the maneuver. One thing I can tell you, when you get to the top of the hill you will not be out of breath, your heart rate will be comfortable and you will likely not be sweaty......oh, and your legs will not be wobbly ;).

1) Mountaineering cadence- As simply put as possible this entails taking a step, then a breath, then a step, then a breath.........sounds crazy I know. At least that was what I thought when I first heard it described. "that will take forever" was my first thought. A few hiking trips in the mountains with big loads changed my mind forever. Given the small elevation changes in canoe country this method actually takes very little extra time. There are very few hills I climb now where I even break a sweat or are out of breath in the least. Often you will find you are half way up and sense you have your wheels and can proceed normally. I also use this method on potentially dangerous ground or if it is wet. Don't knock it until you try it. Climbing steep ground can actually be relaxing.

2) Forced air breathing- I suspect a big problem many folk have when they are walking the trail and laboring is that they are simply not getting enough O2. Shallow laborious breathing leads to ineffective muscle use. Are you getting whipped? Try forced air breathing. Breath in through your nose and exhale rapidly and forcefully through your mouth. A slight pucker seems about right. Your doing it right when a big "swooshing" noise is associated with the exhalation. This gets the spent air that is deep in your lungs out and out quickly. In comes another big breath through your nose. Repeat until you feel your stamina returning. If I am climbing a steep incline and prefer not to use the mountaineering cadence of a step and a breath it is common for me to use forced air breathing. If your on a trip and hear something that sounds like a choo-choo train coming don't worry......that's just me coming up the hill.

If your cardio is good you won't need these tools in canoe country. But they are employed by world class athletes who climb big stuff ( yes, I get the air is thin in the mountains, thank you). I use them selectively and find them to be a great benefit and advantage in keeping your heart rate in control and in helping alleviate muscle fatigue. Will it take you a little longer? Yes, a few minutes is all. You will make that up rather easily as you put in an extra hour or two later in the day because your not spent [smiley=thumbup.gif].  

Good advice MT

You should always breath in thru nose and exhale thru mouth on exertion. I know people with sinus issues or nasal obstructions can't always do this, but it's the best way to keep the O2 flowing and the lactic acid from pooling so fast when your really working hard.

Most people unless their into working out, especially cardio activity, breath thru the mouths. If you are a mouth breather and you want to boost your cardio ability, learning to breath properly is a simple step that will pay big dividends down the road.

If your new to the practice, it helps to " exaggerate" the exhale thru the mouth, but once it becomes routine, the exaggerated forceful exhale should stop, as it actually saps energy especially if your doing it out of rhythm with your natural breathing pattern.

The mountaineering cadence is great as well. I'm sure MT would agree, standing as upright as possible when going up grades is important as well. You see a lot of people hunched over under the load and taking little shuffling steps.

Hunched over, your compressing your lungs, restricting the amount of air you can inhale. Your also straining your lower back, becasue the weight isn't over your hips and directed vertically on your spine/hip area.
Instead of little short shuffling steps, try thinking about lifting your knee, extending your leg and then stepping forward while maintaining proper posture. You'll find it much easier to breath, easier on your neck/shoulder areas and surprisingly you'll be able to climb with less expended energy and much quicker than being bent over ;)

ST
I hadn't really considered the hunched over aspect. Somehow I can't picture anyone doing that UNLESS they are dead dog tired, then everything tends to droop. The advice I have given is to help you avoid that scenario.

In the mountaineering cadence I usually take the step upward, set it in place, take the breath and up I go. It is a very relaxing and methodical process.

With forced air breathing I have been doing it for many, many years and I'm not shy in employing it when needed. Be loud and proud. Usually 3 or 4 deep swooshing breaths will get you back on track. Get rid of that dead stale air in the bottom of your lungs. Once on a hike at Mt. Rainier I hit an incline I didn't feel like slowing down for and I forced air breathed for close to a mile and if anything I increased my speed upwards. Once in a while it's fun to "see what you've got" ;).  

The forced air breathing is the same technique taught by yoga instructors. Works for lots more than working out on a mat. Deep, cleansing breath, gets lots of oxygen flowing. Worth the effort for those who have not tried it.

Thanks for the tips, MT. The missus and I are hiking Yosemite this summer, and we'll definitely keep this in mind.  [smiley=thumbup.gif]  ;)

Wow Mulears
sounds awesome........promise to take plenty of pics and post a link to photobucket or the like so we can check it out [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Wow... I didn't think of it on my way to town last night on my walk. It took a good 45 minutes to get there. Then I was feeling the workout I'd gotten so far and actually find myself going slower on the way home... I was wearing a pair of boots to get myself used to that too. Anyways, I remembered what you, MT were saying here and I tried the breathing thing as you discribed. I got home in less than forty minutes. More than five minutes quicker than going to town when I'm "fresh". BTW, I'm a little sore today.  ;D

Gotta make a change to my earlier post. It's Pilates that exhales through the mouth, not yoga. I'm a fan of both.

It doesn't matter whether you breathe through your mouth or your nose (other than you might take in a few extra bugs through your mouth). It's the same air and it gets mixed well before it gets to your lungs.

What does matter is that you learn to breathe deeply - using your diaphragm (the muscle below your stomach), not your upper chest muscles.

It's also important that you match your exercise rate to your oxygen intake rate. You want to maximize the burning of blood glucose (aerobic pathway) rather than muscle glycogen (anaerobic). The rule of thumb is that you should be breathing hard, but not so hard that you can't carry on a conversation.

One word of advice for those just starting out on an exercise program: your cardiovascular fitness will improve much faster than your muscle strength. So be careful not to increase your week-to-week workout load too fast, you might end up injured before you get fit. 10% per week is certainly safe, 20% per week is probably ok for most people too.

Joe's right in every detail. It is more common, however, for folks to get a good expulsion of air and a breath from the diaphragm with an open mouth. Not required, just more common.

I respectfully disagree with the belief that it doesn't matter whether your breath in from your nose or mouth.

MT's tip for climbing is a technique for a particular circumstance.
Unless you have a nasal problem, you should try and breath in thru nose/exhale thru mouth in the majority of times when your exercising strenuously/

I'm sure other than Mt's climbing technique and maybe some Martial Arts disciplines where you want the deep mouth breath, but there the exception, no the rule.

I'll give this link as too why I believe as I do. Google the subject and you'll find other resources as well. I think this GUY knows something about breathing under strenuous exercise, arguably the best aerobic conditioned athlete in history.

The comments about utilizing the diaphragm, are still valid.

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mt, that reference is to a yoga site.

In yoga, you are not breathing air, you are ingesting prana, the fundamental life force (according to Hinduism anyway). If this was meant to be a religious discussion, please allow me to withdraw my previous comments.

Mouth-air and nose-air get mixed near the back of the mouth. I'd be grateful for any theories on how this would affect the efficiency or quality of air going to the lungs.

The pressure drop breathing in through the nose is negligible, and the energy in opening and closing your mouth every breath is unlikely to be significant either. Both of these would favor mouth-breathing anyway.

Joe
Did you even bother to read the info ST provided or did you just see a picture of a yoga pose and make an assumption?

Is it my imagination or do you seem to make authoritative comments on a great variety of subjects? It would behoove you to provide supporting material to help substantiate what you all to often present as blanket assertions of fact. Or in absence of that perhaps your credentials that the rest of us (or at least the dubious ones such as myself) may be educated by you with confidence.

Since I make no pretense as to any expertise in this area of breathing nose vs. mouth I will provide material gleaned and researched by others. If you have opposing material from a source other than yourself I would certainly be interested in hearing it.

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Thanks MT ;)

The site I referenced as you did also, is for the Lance Armstrong Live Strong Foundation.
He's famous for being a biker, but like all world class athletes, he cross trains. I know he runs/lifts weights, and wouldn't be surprised if he did some Yoga or Pilate's as well.

The picture was meant to convey nose breathing during strenuous activity. I'm guessing certain yoga poses would be considered strenuous at least for me they would be ;D

I can see how you might think it was a Yoga site, but if you read all of the info, it's clear that it's not. MT"s link leaves little doubt that the experts they refernece believe you should breath in thru nose, out thru mouth.
 
They mentioned some yoga poses that dictate you breath thru your mouth, but that's for specific working of core muscles, a technique like I believe your mouth breathing when climbing is. They also reference the fact that mouth breathing stimulates the flight or flight response. Tenses the body for the conflict to come. That tenseness may be useful for working deep core muscles and probably some martial arts techniques.

I'm a big fan of boxing/mixed martial arts fights. Ever see a boxer using nasal decongestants before the fight to clear their nasal airways.
Ever hear the fight announcers/analysts, comment that he's " sucking air", breathing heavily thru the mouth? That's a sure sign that their out of gas and ripe for the taking. Same with Basketball players on the court during foul shots. If they have their hands on their knees and breathing deeply thru mouth, it's sure sign their gassed.

If anyone doesn't think it matters whether you breath thru nose or mouth, here's a little " unscientific" test you can try ;)
Do your normal workout breathing the way you normally would. If you've learned better, your breathing in thru nose, out thru mouth. If not your using a combo of both and as you get fatigued, your probably mouth breathing exclusively.
The next time you do the same workout, get some of those nose clips the swimmers wear, and do your entire workout just breathing thru your mouth exclusively.
If your honest I believe the majority of people would say it's much harder without some nasal breathing, and maybe even impossible with just mouth breathing.

Like MT, I don't claim medical expertise on this subject, but I do have plenty of experience with the subject.

From 35 to 50, I did 5-7 Aerobic/Spinning/Step/ Double-Quad step classes a week. 1 hour, 5 minute warm-up- 45 workout-10 minute cool down and stretch.
When I first started I was a 50-50 person. Started breathing thru nose, as I fatigued I started gasping for air thru my mouth. In the beginning I blamed it on simply being out of shape, but as I progressed and made friends with the different trainers and instructors over the years, they took me under their wings and got me eating right and learning how to breath properly. That put me over the hump so to speak. I could finish a class as strong as I started, something the " mouth" breathers never could ;D

Solotripper's right. Yoga can be plenty strenuous. I've been at it for a decade and often come home sweaty. Lot's of times folks peer through the glass, decide to come in and then leave in 10-minutes.

I have mentioned this before but it bears repeating (at least I think it does ;) ). When I started p-90x it kicked my butt (and still does actually) and when I got to the Yoga routine included in the program I thought..."Oh great, a break" Man was I in for a surprise. I did 1/2 of a 90 minute routine before I was toast.

ST, I want to emphasize the breathing suggestion I am advocating is to breathe through the nose but forcefully exhale through the mouth. Repeat until you feel settled. Often it might just be 3 or 4 loud exhalations before I feel settled (still proceeding with the activity BTW).  repeat as needed.

I was running on the treadmill this morning at the Y, and I consciously concentrated on the "breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth" technique you've been talking about. Not for the entire, run, but from time-to-time as I was going along, particulalry as I was cranking up the speeds.

I'll be durned--I really DID feel a lot better at the end of the run than usual!

Guess you CAN teach an old dog new tricks  ;D :o ;D  [smiley=dankk2.gif]

Quote:

ST, I want to emphasize the breathing suggestion I am advocating is to breathe through the nose but forcefully exhale through the mouth. Repeat until you feel settled. Often it might just be 3 or 4 loud exhalations before I feel settled (still proceeding with the activity BTW).  repeat as needed.

I don't argue with that at all. You mentioned feeling " settled". I think what your doing is as much a " relaxation/centering" technique as anything else. Same when climbing a steep stretch. Your focusing on filling your lungs completely, exhaling and emptying them.

That's a far cry from breathing/exhaling just thru the mouth all the time.
MuleLars found out what I was talking about when he made the conscious effort to breath in thru his nose, exhale thru mouth. He found it most useful as he cranked up the workload, not surprising as from the links you and I posted, that's how you receive the maximum oxygen intake with the least stress on you body. The goal is to be able to do it without thinking, just returning the body to the state we all started in, as NOSE breathers. IF he can learn do re-set his breathing all the time, he'll feel the difference and the benefits no matter what activity he's pursuing. Even one's that his significant other might enjoy :-?
Women like men with ENDURANCE ;)

Like Mulars, I've found it useful. But I'm having trouble making it an automatic thing. It's cold here too, so after a bit my nose starts to run making it harder to inhale through the nose. Hmmm, would walking a treadmill with a pack on have the same effect as walking to town and back with the same? (Inside where my nose isn't running.) My nose runs faster than I do!

Interesting conversation.  This thing about breathing in through the nose is actually very subtle.  The main reason to breathe through the nose as opposed to the mouth, is for greater breathe control.  Whether you breathe out through your mouth or your nose varies between traditions and practices (most martial arts breathe out through the mouth but many yogic practices (Ayengar being an example) breathe in and out through the nose.  At any rate when we talk about breathing through the nose we’re not talking about simply breathing through the nostrils.  What do I mean?  Stand in front of a mirror and breathe through your nose deeply.  Unless you have practiced this you will probably notice that your nostrils flair just slightly with each in-breath.  That’s nostril breathing which isn’t quite what we’re after.  Now try breathing in through your nose again but this time as though you were just slightly snoring (there should be absolutely no flairing of your nostrils.).  So the focus is at the back of your nose.  You should be able to hear yourself as though you were quietly snoring.  Notice how much more control you now have in the amount of air you can draw, how effectively it reaches your lungs (which feels like your belly – i.e., it expands with each inspiration) and the control you have as to the speed with which you draw it in.

Credentials (for MT’s benefit):
25 years practicing Chito Ryu Karate (until my hips gave out)
40 years as a meditator
PhD in Consciousness Studies (which includes investigating the nature of deep meditative experience.)

Your a cat of a different stripe Kerry, no creds needed.......but hey impressive nontheless. I didn't know you could get a phd in "consciousness studies". You understand of course there are those here that can have a field day with that info ;).

I hadn't intended to create such a stir. All I know is that it works for me and is common practice amongst world class mountaineers. No comments on the equally valuable step-breath-step-breath method. When I get to the top of the hill I'm not out of breath or sweaty or tired in the least............. (of course you've already had lunch and taken a nap waiting for me at the top of the hill while I ascend.  ;D ).

All kidding aside, I take pride in its employment as it does take some discipline. You can practice the move on some steps. If your tired and hit a big hill this will get you to the top quite comfortably thank you very much.  

MT- I am going to give your breathing method a try this June on the very steep up hill portage from McAree to Pond/Gratton.

I had a highschool basketball coach back in the 70's tell our team to breath through our noses and take deeper breaths from the diaphragm area for peak efficiency. Of course, we were all mainly mouthbreathers ... we all thought he was nuts... but he must have been ahead of his time.

Quote:

IF he can learn do re-set his breathing all the time, he'll feel the difference and the benefits no matter what activity he's pursuing. Even one's that his significant other might enjoy :-? Women like men with ENDURANCE ;)

[smiley=thumbup.gif]  ::)

Quote:

I didn't know you could get a phd in "consciousness studies". You understand of course there are those here that can have a field day with that info .

Ya, but with his PHD, he can talk the talk and with 25 years of martial arts behind him, he's proficient in "unconsciousness studies" ;D

Hopefully we've enlightened some and encouraged others.
If you look at the links, you see that these are degreed Professionals in their field of expertise who are making these statements, I don't see there's much room for disagreement. It's not an idea that opinion based, it's based on studies of the human body. I guess you can choose not to believe the experts but why would you :-?

If your into exercising or even if your not and don't breath primarily thru your nose, give it a try and see for yourselves. You have nothing to lose, and maybe something to gain ;)

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 1:44pm:

MT- I am going to give your breathing method a try this June on the very steep up hill portage from McAree to Pond/Gratton.

If you are in good shape you can really roll with this breathing method. Straight up the hill and never change speeds.

If you are less than in really good shape I highly suggest the step breath method. That's the "real" trick. It is how you get to the top of Everest.

I also employ this method when it is wet out. I tend to be very sure footed off trail but yet I slow right down when it's wet, especially uphill.

Just TRY it! Try it for 5 minutes going up a steep hill. You will make more progress faster than you think and you will never even be slightly out of breath. Better control=safety......another consideration. Plus, as I have said before I don't burn out. Up the hill slow and I can run all day and late into the evening, no problem.

Are all you nose breathing advocates seriously thinking that one could run a mile at a faster pace by not opening their mouth. I am very skeptical.
Since this issue was raised several posts ago I have been giving the nose breathing a shot during my daily workouts. First thing I noticed right away was that I was starved for oxygen exercising at my normal intesity and only by slowing way down could I even consider keeping my mouth closed. Perhaps I train at too high an intensity?
Running is part of my regimen and I am quite sure that I could not run my best race without breathing through my mouth and nose. Long ago I learned the secret of full diaphragm breathing with running or any other highly aerobic exercise but this nose intake breathing really throws me. If I were to get serious about it like some here and in the links have advocated I would need to take a huge step backward in my training.
I could envision some merit to nose breathing during low intensity or anaerobic exercise like weightlifting.
Lance Armstrong is a certified freak of nature. What he is able to do does not apply to almost anyone else.
My workouts incorporate occasional sessions that are designed to bring me to exhaustion - the point where I am literally sucking air and ready to puke. It's a place mentally and physically that I choose to visit so that when it happens out in the real world whether racing or doing one too many portages I am prepared for it and understand how my body will react and when it will shut down. I absolutely don't want to visit that exhausted state for the first time far from any medical help because my body may not just shutdown, it may shut off!
I will continue to experiment with the nose breathing but I still am very skeptical.

In response to Kingfisher's skepticism.  It's important to keep in mind what the goal or goals are in breathing because they would be somewhat different for someone doing yoga or a meditator as opposed to someone engaged in intense aerobic exercise.  I also do a regimen of intense aerobic exercise (not to the puking stage mind you) and would agree that nose breathing is probably not going to happen when you get at or near the wall.  But with regards to intense aerobics the main issue is oxygen exchange.  So the key there is to be doing deep diaphram breathing (which means breathing like a baby where one's belly is working like a bellows.)  Contrast that to how most of us, especially men have been taught to breathe.  Like in the army we suck in our gut and stick out our chest.  That guarentees a shallow breath (just the upper part of the lungs) and minimum oxygen exchange.  When it gets to the short strokes I don't think it much matters whether you're breathing through your mouth, nose or ears.  What matters is breathe control and the extent of oxygen exchange.  At that point the critical issue is the depth of the breath which means maintaining deep diaphram breathing especially as we become more and more fatigued.  Since deep diaphram breathing is how we're born to breathe it is not something we have to learn but rather re-learn.  Once we get the rhythm of it and practice it a bit it becomes second nature not only in intense activities but in every thing we do.
Now just so I'm clear - I am right and I'll definitely put a hurt on anyone who says otherwise!  Now hit the floor and give me 20!

Kingfisher wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 9:15pm:

Are all you nose breathing advocates seriously thinking that one could run a mile at a faster pace by not opening their mouth. I am very skeptical. I will continue to experiment with the nose breathing but I still am very skeptical.

While I am in decent shape I am in no way qualified to instruct anyone who is as superbly fit as KF seems to be. But rather, since I was the originator of the post, I would seek to clarify only lest what I advocate be misconstrued and thus be misunderstood.

What has worked for me and countless thousands of climbers is called "pressure breathing". Essentially it is breathing in through the nose and pursing the lips and exhaling forcefully through the mouth. You are doing it right when it is accompanied by a swooshing sound. It is fine in theory that pursing your lips while forcefully exhaling through your mouth creates some sort of back pressure. I am dubious of that. What I do know is that it expels a lot of spent air in a hurry and from way down deep. In comes another draft through my nose, I pause a second or so to let it provide the benefit and then it is forcefully removed through the mouth.

It is in fact when I feel starved for O2 and I'm workin hard that I employ this and it usually sets the ship right.

The step method I advocate for special usage is called the "rest step". It is common climbing methodology. If you are the investigative sort google "pressure breathing" or "rest step" to get the skinny on both of these potentially useful methods.  

Quote:

Running is part of my regimen and I am quite sure that I could not run my best race without breathing through my mouth and nose

I talked with a good friend of mine from CA last week and about this very subject. He's now a Chinese Acupuncturist/Herbalist having completed a 4 year program and now state licensed in CA which is no easy task.
He also holds a Masters in Exercise science and before his career change, he presented and fitness workshops thru ACE and other credited fitness providers. He has workshop certificates out the whazoo for everything from weight training to running gait analysis as well as for body work techniques. He also was one hell of a aerobic teacher/fitness trainer.

I knew he would be interested about our breathing discussion.  He told me that at a certain level of intensity, you will need to mouth breath as well as continue to nose breath to get as much oxygen as you can into you lungs to starve off the build-up of lactic acid as long as possible. It's a involuntary response that you can't control as your body is " gasping" for oxygen as your pushing to and beyond your aerobic thresh hold. The longer you can breath thru your nose and exercise intensely the better off you'll be and the longer it will take to for your body to demand you start the intense mouth breathing  that will come eventually.

Excessing in intense bursts or at a high level for as long as you can is one of those examples.  KF must be very fit, as mainly elite athletes can do it and recover and go again. Once your at a certain aerobic fitness level, you need to push beyond what would be prudent for the "average" person to see any real gains. My friend has worked with some high level athletes and what they do to be the best the average person could do or would any gym allow it's personal trainers do for their customers for fear of liability lawsuits in event of injury or death.

It's not really a either/or proposition. You should breath thru you nose and the links that talk about why in regards to running, do tell you that you might " backslide" at first, bu that eventually you'll rebound and be better for it. All out intense workouts till " total exhaustion/puking" are special cases.  

KF,

Here's a link that you might find useful/informative ?
It mentions your body having to re-adapt at first but that it will and you'll achieve a long term gain overall.

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I feel sure there are physiological benefits from breathing techniques (and I naturally adopted the nose/mouth pattern while hiking the Rockies).  In fact, I started to develop these techniques 50 years ago while playing varsity sports, specifically basketball.  I was gauged as the most "fit" person on the team and anytime the team went to the "box and 1" zone, I got to be the chaser.  

The earliest acknowledgement of the fact that I was doing something different came from by team mates when they hung the nick name "smiley" on me.  I achieved this moniker because soon after wind sprint drills began, I started smiling.  (I can only guess that opposing team members thought of this behavior, but I'm guessing they were depressed by it.)  In any case, what I found by experience is that when I smiled (which also takes less energy than frowning) that facial configuration tended to significantly open the airway.

During games, I refused to take a seat during time-outs because I wanted to be able to fully extend my diaphragm and thus recover more quickly.  (I also suspect that lactic acid buildup in your leg muscles is diminished more quickly with the better circulation standing is likely to afford.)

However, all of this being said, I also think there is a probable psychological component to some of this.  While executing a specific breathing pattern, it is likely that at least some of your mental attention is drawn from your level of fatigue and focused on your breathing.  One personal benefit of knowing this is that when hill climbing, I'll take a quick look up to confirm the trail direction.  However, there after I never look more than 20 feet ahead.  Its amazing that I'll reach the top much less fatigued than if I watch my progress up the hill the entire journey.  To some degree, portaging a canoe up hill produces this result since you'd likely need to at least tilt the canoe upward to see the top of the hill.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

dd

Quote:

Its amazing that I'll reach the top much less fatigued than if I watch my progress up the hill the entire journey.

My Exercise friend I mentioned employed a tactic that took this Psychological component you mentioned into effect in his aerobic/weighted workout classes he taught. I don't know if there is a name for it, but I do the same thing when hiking a steep hill. I look once for the top, then like you I watch the trail immediately in front. It does make a big difference. I'll ask him if there's a name for this or it's just something he picked up along the way.

In his combo classes we would do aerobics and then some resistance exercises afterward, using dumbbells or just body weight. He would be talking about proper form while counting reps to himself. After a count of 8, he would start counting down the reps, starting at the top and going down. Counting down seems " easier" than counting  up, so people hang in longer knowing they just have to do a few more reps ;)
I asked why he didn't just count to 16 or whatever number he wanted us to do? He said that it was a mental thing. Especially when your tired or theres a long term physical/mental effort needed. Even though we were doing 2x the reps he counted, it " felt" like we were only doing 8 reps, a big difference after a hard class. Same with climbing a long steep grade.

It has the mental effect of stressing your body in anticipation of the effort you'll need to accomplish the task. Same if your looking down a long stretch of lake on a paddling trip. Sometimes you think you'll never get there. I just concentrate on looking at my immediate surroundings and find that you get to your goal sooner than you thought initially and with much less fatigue.

"I also think there is a probable psychological component to some of this."



I'm sure that there is a psycho component to most of this thread, and most of the other threads on here as well, but I don't let that worry me too much since I've never posted a picture of me on here! and youse guys dont' know where I live  !!!!!!!!!!


and just to keep on topic, I went on a climbing trip Saturday  (4/2)- packed light since I made the other 3 carry the ropes and my pack only weighed 40lbs or so.  Moderate approach, from 8100' to 8800' el. in a bit over a quarter mile on the map, more like 1/3 mile on the ground.  I tried that "in thru the nose bit" - didn't work, even at the modest uphill pace I was going at - just can't get enough Os.  I've tried the in thru the nose out the mouth bit X/C skiing as well (at a hard pace) in very cold weather - didn't work for that either.    I wonder if its more a method for pacing yourself slowly ? i.e. if you can do this, then you are moving at a pace that isn't consuming more oxygen than you are taking in, and to go faster is too much work?

Hey Mat

I noticed that Alpine Ascents are booked solid this summer for Mt. Rainier climbs. Waiting list only. I'm starting to get the itch. Looks like a guy might have to book a year out.

Today I did about 17 miles on the bike and ran into a very nasty headwind on the way back. At first I was a little bummed but realized I was training and this was exactly what I needed so I got my act together. In through the nose and heavy quick exhalations through the mouth the whole way back more or less. I was actually able to increase my pace to the point I was grinning and liking it.

I can't help but wonder if your exhalations are aggressive enough. Are you making the swooshing noise? Emptying the air from down deep very quickly?

It's just not for slowpokes. I like to roll on occasion and I don't generally pressure breathe on a rest step or a slow pace. Only when I'm working hard. When you sound like a choo-choo train your doing it right. Straight up the side without stopping................

Mad_Mat wrote on Apr 4^th, 2011 at 5:59pm:

"I also think there is a probable psychological component to some of this." I'm sure that there is a psycho component to most of this thread, and most of the other threads on here as well, but I don't let that worry me too much since I've never posted a picture of me on here! and youse guys dont' know where I live  !!!!!!!!!

You can rest easy Mat.......We only go after those that owe us money or maybe someone that has dishonored one of the ladies in the family. But if we wanted to find you it would only take about 3 hours. We usually send Wally on such errands (*note "Uncle Wally's" Avatar if you have any doubts)

Just for kicks I had a few of my boys look you up. In less than 3 hours we have found some interesting things about you "Mat". Originally I had naturally assumed that Mat was short for Matthew but that's not the case at all is it Matilda?.............. Who lives just outside of Boulder Colorado.

Don't get nervous.......like I said we're only interested in those we do business with.

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We usually send Wally on such errands

And HE said that Evil Black rifle was just for Prairie Dogs ;D

If you read the links I posted about nose breathing during strenuous exercise and running, they explain why a mouth breather will feel a decline in performance at first when learning to breath again from the nose predominately.
Under heavy enough exertion or when your at or past your aerobic thresh-hold, you'll start mouth breathing whether you want to or not.
We start out as babies breathing thru our noses, somewhere along the way, most lose some or all of the ability. Re-learning something that comes so natural as a child after years of doing it differently is no easy task.
Your normal pace as a mouth breather may drop off, but you should see a increase in stamina/distance albeit at a lower speed. Distance and effort builds stamina. The longer you work at a slower sustained work load the harder you can go in short bursts and the faster you recover afterward.
Reason why sprinters/bikers do interval training. All out, recover at a moderate pace, then go again. You keep bumping up/shortening the recovery phase, the longer you can go all out.

Interval training? That's like an uphill portage no? All out, recover at a moderate pace, grab another pack and go again. ;)

At the end of a difficult portage, doesn't everyone take a deep breath and exhale through pursed lips? Isn't that the natural thing to do? It must help otherwise everyone wouldn't do it.

I think I normally do what you guys are talking about throughout the inclines. I expect it comes rather natural to other smokers. Take in all that good stuff in nice and deep and blow it out slowly under a little pressure so it finds/clears every nook and cranny of our lungs.

I'll often inhale through my teeth like a biker though. I get the extra amount of air I need plus it filters out the bugs.

I use my bushy mustache to filter the bugs.

Recently came across this article dealing with nose vs mouth breathing during exercise.

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Good info and the idea of breathing "freely" however you choose to do it is key, except for certain conditions both physical and climate related.
I still see guys in the gym forcibly inhaling/exhaling thru just their mouths while lifting weights, to the point of physical strain.
I guess they need to read that article ;)

Good stuff.  But when I get to the point where I'm into a vigorous work out, not sure I'm breathing "freely"....feels and probably sounds more like sucking air... ;)

Good article, but it didn't give credit for all the extra protein you ingest when breathing through your mouth in canoe country.  :D

FWIW.......

My experience is the air breathing style I gleaned from some climbers I had become acquainted with while working at Mt Rainier has served me best when it is a situation where one must work hard for a sustained span of time.

I have proven it over and over to myself that it does indeed work. When I find myself struggling on a steep incline or fighting a nasty headwind on my bike or ascending a 3 mile switchback trail (plenty such slogs out west) if I discipline myself to breathe in through my nose and blow hard out my mouth. I calm down and typically can sustain a much longer and steadier pace than if I am huffin and puffin just through my mouth. Scientifically not sure what the dif is but all I know is it works........common practice amongst climbers even in the thin air.

It might not be for everybody, I just know it works and works well for me.

Good one Joe about the "extra protein"  ;D........ >>Which reminds me of hiking in Glacier National Park, I was alongside Elizabeth lake and a party of 3 were hiking on the other side early in the morning when all of a sudden one of their members started coughing and gagging like he was about to die....It went on for a few minutes...I still remember being very concerned. When we met up I asked if he was OK and all that had happened was that he had gotten a bug caught in his throat!  :P

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Good one Joe about the "extra protein"  ........ >>Which reminds me of hiking in Glacier National Park, I was alongside Elizabeth lake and a party of 3 were hiking on the other side early in the morning when all of a sudden one of their members started coughing and gagging like he was about to die....It went on for a few minutes...I still remember being very concerned. When we met up I asked if he was OK and all that had happened was that he had gotten a bug caught in his throat!

Isle Royale backpack trip. Last uphill before descending to lakeside campsite. I was out of water and swallowed a bug of some sort and was gagging/choking.
One of the guys handed me his canteen and I took a big gulp. Should of known ;D
It wasn't water, it was Jack Daniels :o
I'm not a booze drinker, especially straight.
I don't know which one was worse, but the guys said that the bug suffered no pain and died happy ;D

As I recall,from my yoga and martial arts days of long ago,breathing in through the nose while expanding the diaphram and then exhaling twice through the mouth was suposed to get rid of all the carbon dioxide and allow more oxigen to be absorbed. It worked well when I could still run. It works well now when paddling hard for an extended period.