The following was included in another post by jaximus. I removed it and started this new topic for discussion.

anyone have a suggestion for a good crank to pull behind a bottom bouncer. i would assume a shallow diving model, but i dont really have much expertise when it comes to those. i have a fair selection of original floaters, husky jerks, and shallow x-raps, but would another model be better?

another random question, would it be worth while to stick a small spinner blade on a bottom bouncer, maybe a 2 or 3 colorado, 4 indiana, or a 5 willow? cranks are pulled faster than crawler harnesses, so i would lean toward willow, but what do you think? a little extra vibration to draw them into say an original floater.
(jaximus)

oops, sorry about that.

im looking for a model that would compliment the way a bottom bouncer works and would differ from my current selection. a very large percentage of my cranks are long lipped ones that dive in the 15-20 foot range and those wouldnt work right behind a bottom bouncer.

so im considering shallow x raps, shallow shad raps, flat raps, etc. what would be the best for this application. im pretty much a just rapala guy, im not very adventurous when it comes to trying new brands because rapala has always produced well for me and its hard to consider spending the same amount of money on something that isnt a 'sure thing'.

In Furtman's BWCA/QUETICO fishing book, he recommends floaters behind a bottom bouncer. I use that set-up with a keel weight. Take the front treble off and your lure will almost never snag up. Plenty of action in that downward facing floater at trolling speed.

ive used the keel weights before and im still a little afraid of snagging up and breaking off. i figure the bottom bouncer will help keep the fluoro/mono leader off of the rocks better than keel would. i have a pretty specific application in mind when it comes to running this setup. i plan to do a figure 8 around 2 islands with the water depths ranging from 12ft to 50ft (rough estimates by letting line out, i dont use a depthfinder).

right  now the leading candidate is a shallow shad rap in the hot steel pattern.

ST's advice is solid. If you remove the front hook (I upgrade the rear hook 1 size larger) you can bang bottom all day long with very few hang ups.

My first trip into the Q I didn't have a depth finder either. This was the strategy I employed for the 12 days I trolled. I think I lost 1 or 2 lures to snags and I ran a line pretty much all the time. I didn't have any problem hooking fish and when it came time to release them it was much easier and safer for the fish as well as myself.

I like your choice of lure. A shallow shad rap seems ideal but to keep it in the strike zone and not be afraid of losing it will be key. The removal of that front hook will give you the confidence to do that. I highly suggest upsizing the rear hook however (just one size, wide gap preferred).

The flat rap would be another likely choice. I watched a promo video of the fellas from infisherman fishing the flat rap behind a bottom bouncer. Of course they were doing quite nicely with it (imagine that ;) ). Not surprisingly I ordered one the next day..........I really like them, my biggest smally last year came on one. I think you should get one Jax, maybe a brook trout colored one ;D.

The junior thundersticks, although maybe smaller than what you want to present,  that you referred to in the original post work well with the bottom bouncer set up. Just make sure you have enough leader back to the lure. Also using a three way swivel with lighter test mono on the dropper to a bell sinker would work. Given your understandable concern of keeping as many cranks as possible from the rock bass that inhabit all of the likely fishing spots, the drop sinker is a small price to pay. Just another option.

J

You could also just run a snap-weight a few feet up the line from a shallow diver if you want it to run deeper.

Personally I have no interest in fooling with all the rigging a bottom bouncer setup or 3-way rig entails.  If I want to bang bottom, then a deep running crank will do it.  If it's deeper than I can reach with a crank, I'll just have to jig.

mastertangler wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 12:19am:

you can bang bottom all day long...

yes i can ;)


mastertangler wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 12:19am:

maybe a brook trout colored one ;D.

that was actually the paint pattern i was looking at if i were to get a flat rap...
i think you infected my brain.

Snow_Dog wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 1:07am:

You could also just run a snap-weight a few feet up the line from a shallow diver if you want it to run deeper. Personally I have no interest in fooling with all the rigging a bottom bouncer setup or 3-way rig entails.  If I want to bang bottom, then a deep running crank will do it.  If it's deeper than I can reach with a crank, I'll just have to jig.

I'm kinda with SD on this one. One of the problems you are going to encounter is the physics it takes to set the hook..........follow me on this one.

With the description you gave in relation to the area you are going to fish it sounds to me that you want to maintain contact with a constantly changing bottom without the advantage of a depth finder and a nice chunk of lead might just do it. The disadvantage you will have is being able to keep enough forward momentum while you are adjusting your depth all the time. That forward speed is crucial if the hooks are going to sink in should a fish decide to strike.

The only time I would consider a bottom bouncer is if I was fishing a large flat where the depth stays fairly constant.

My advice, especially without a depth finder is to get a deep deep diver with a beefy bill, remove the front hook, upsize the rear and stop worrying about wether your lure is ticking the rocks. If it does get hung give it some slack and more often than not it will float out of trouble. Bouncing around on the rocks isn't going to hurt your rod one bit. It might stress your line a bit though and I would certainly be keeping a close eye on that.

If you are intent on giving it a try I prefer something in-line. The snap weight suggestion is solid as is an in line weight. I think I ran a tip of the month with an in line weight which I am very high on.

good luck

its not so much that i want to maintain contact with the bottom throughout the trolling, but moreso i want to be able to stay clear of the bottom when i inevitably start running into it. i figured the bottom bouncer would be better at not snagging up when im in shallow and would run decently in open water. the keel would run more nicely in open water, but not as nicely in the rocks. without having a graph to know what im coming against, i figured the bottom bouncer is a safer bet to keep the softer mono/fluoro clear of the rocks because of the wire. the keel would run it much closer to the rocks and be more susceptible to getting pinched between rocks and breaking off.  

i would be using this application at dusk/dawn to target the bigger female walleyes. during the day id be in more open water going after lakers for lunch.

Tapping bottom works!  It can attract fish, makes your lure look even more enticing.  Also can kick up muck which contains forage & attracts fish.

I do like the idea of removing the center hooks.

I can vouch for trolling a Floating Rapala behind a 3 -way swivel with a weight or a bottom bouncer. This setup works very well. I did it for years to search for walleye concentrations. Once I found them I then went to jigging or lindy rigging a worm harness or leech floating spinner rig.

I have since gone to trolling deeper diving cranks and skimming the bottom to find where wally schools are. And I mostly now just slow troll my worm/leech floating  spinner harness rigs with a 1/2 oz to 3/4 oz Lindy Rig setup.  

I used to bring up a whole flat or 500 nightcrawlers to Quetico and did super on big walleye with Lindy rigged floating glow spinner harnesses. In fact, I used to outfish my counterparts who trolled shadraps, thundersticks, etc.  However, since the livebait ban, I have had to resort to GULP and my numbers and size seem to have fallen off at least 25%.  I am still trying to refine my Lindy rig setup to get back to the old days.

At the end of June Iam planning to try more hard plastic trolling to get walleyes. I have to thank some QJ members like  Jaximus, and Mastertangler who have given me lots of excellent advice on the art of trolling for walleyes ( and Lakers). Can't wait to go north.

Well Wally13,
it's about time you weighed in. That would be the real trick wouldn't it.........that is, trying to figure out how to replace the live stuff. I had been experimenting with finesse harnesses's with plastic trailers and in line weights but never really put it to the test. Just lugged it all around and never slapped it out there. ::)

I think you might of been a little conservative in your percentage of the bite falling off. I bet 50% and more likely 75% off is more accurate  ;). I do love live bait...........

i was putzing around behind the new canoe i got this last weekend with some spinners and different harnesses. i really like the looks of a two willow blades (#4 white) with 6 pearl beads between each of them with a slow death hook sunk into a 4" white ringworm 15" back.(i bent the hooks a little bit more to give a more drastic swirl) the willows churned up some really nice rhythm and got that ringworm swirling and pulsing. the lake was super crowded and boaters dont really respect canoes, so i didnt really get a chance to fish it. its hard for me to not troll cranks so my spinners end up as tackle box clutter as well.

Jax

The spinner rig with the weird slo death hook..........Now that sounds awesome!! That's what you should run behind your weight! I wish I would of thought of it.

Anyway, I thought of another lure.........how about a black and gold jointed rapala? I think that would work very nicely as it doesn't dive very deep.

one additional thought on the spinner rig with that slo death twirly hook. IMHO if you don't rig with 2 ball bearing swivels, one at the hook and one up the line perhaps at the weight, I have a feeling you will be sorry :o.

i have a jointed J11 firetiger and a J9 natural perch that i was thinking of trying behind the weight.

as for the spinner rig, i have a ball bearing swivel between the hook and the spinners, one right behind the keel weight, and one in front of the keel. if i run it on the bottom bouncer, i have that covered as well because i already replaced the swivel on that with a bearing one as well.

My go to spinner rig is a Cabelas Super Glow in the Dark floating 2 floats, 2 hook worm harness or single hook with a Gulp leech. In stained waters like Kawnipi these glow in the dark harnesses do real well. I like  blue, chartreuse and pink.

I adjust snell length depending how far walleye are off the bottom. Most prepackaged glow rigs come with a 48 inch snell ...I normally shorten it up to about 30 inches on average when trolling 2 mph.

I use a quick change Lindy swivel ahead of the spinner rig to reduce line twist.

I just don't think Gulp worms /leeches give you the great action of a live worm or leech. Maybe what Jaximus is suggesting ( slow death set-up) might give more action than my artificial setup.  I think more action  is needed many times when fish are neutral or negative.

i saw a segment on a fishing show the other day about using the slow death hooks. they used gulp sand worms, torn in half so they were 3-4 inches long. sand worms are more flat than the typical soft plastic worm, so they have a more ribbony-type action. this helps cup the water more and twirl the slow death hook. im still not a fan of gulp because of the smell and haslte associated with it. i tend to change baits/sizes/colors frequently, so it doesnt fit my personal style. if i were trolling worm harnesses behind planer boards on erie where i was going to troll all day and not change my hooks, then it would probably be better.

Excellent point about the sand worms Jax. (I think I might have saw the same thing on utube). I too think the gulp stuff is overrated (although I did have my largest smally ever at over 6lbs eat a gulp leech........it threw the hook right at the boat while laying on its side.....oh the pain, what a fish) but perhaps the sand worms would be the ticket with what wally13 is proposing. Might be a slay'em set up. And yea, I am a bit concerned that Mr. Bear might just take my whole tackle bag because of smelly gulp. Yikes!

I tend to change rigs and lures and line in the first 10 or 15 minutes of starting until I have on what I feel is the right combo of line class and presentation. Then I can fish for hours with the same thing or until conditions change. Pretty common for me to tie something on and make 5 casts and change only to do it all over again with the new lure 5 casts later.

Are these slow death hooks really any different from rigging the plastic bait with a little twist in the hook gap?  Something I've been doing effectively for years.

It looks to me as something designed to catch anglers more than fish.  Buying shelf space, the only reason 1/2 the flavours of Jell-o exist.

Snow_Dog wrote on Jun 1^st, 2011 at 1:07am:

You could also just run a snap-weight a few feet up the line from a shallow diver if you want it to run deeper. Personally I have no interest in fooling with all the rigging a bottom bouncer setup or 3-way rig entails.  If I want to bang bottom, then a deep running crank will do it.  If it's deeper than I can reach with a crank, I'll just have to jig.

I'm a little late to this thread, but I have to agree w/ SD. I don't mess w/ three ways or other fancy rigs. I like to keep it simple. If you want to add an attractor to your crank, just dip it in Gulp Alive juice. ;)