There have been a couple of recent posts on dehydration / heat exhaustion in the Gear section, pfd topic. I thought it would be worth posting a reminder here just in case others might have missed it.

One poster suggested that overheating is "worse than a bad cold". It's more than that: dehydration and heat stroke can be life-threatening if left untreated.

Two of the main things to look out for when canoeing (or doing any other kind of exercise) in hot weather include lack of perspiration and yellow or gold urine (as opposed to nearly clear). If you're not urinating at all despite drinking a lot of water, you're not drinking enough.

A lot gets mentioned about electrolytes and the need to replenish. This is not as big a deal as it's made out to be: we all get enough salt in our diet as it is. Electrolytes do make it easier to drink more water and for the water to get absorbed into your bloodstream, but if you didn't bring Gatorade, Tang, or whatever, just keep forcing the water down, whether you feel thirsty or not.

fwiw, a couple of weeks ago on a 36 C day (not very strenuous canoeing or portaging), I put down over 10 litres of water. So don't underestimate what's required.

So, to be clear it's not a cold its the cold.

There has been something I have been wondering about for a number of years, and since I am not a biochemist or a physician, here is the query-

      When I have pushed, been pushing my body to the limit, am well hydrated with H20, its very hot, I notice a little dizziness coming on( b kind)

So I have tried the electrolyte thing and repeatedly I end up cramping in the muscle groups that are being exercised within 10-20 minutes after ingestion.

I have also tried eating that helped with the dizziness part but made me nauseous & feel more fatigued.

So can anyone explain the chemistry to me?

Seems to me there must be some connection between electrolytes, blood sugar, lactic acid, and such...I want to understand this better...

Which electrolytes are better?

To add to marlin’s Question.  Why do I start getting cramps a day or 2 after my trip is over? It may take a couple of months before all of my cramping stops.  Most of my cramps are lower leg and hand if that makes a difference.
MagicPaddler

First magicpaddler's question:

This is what Tim Noakes (Lore of Running) has to say:

Cramping, while uncomfortable / painful, is usually not medically serious. Risk factors include old age, undertraining, overweight, family history, and stretching habits. It does NOT appear to be related to dehydration or electrolyte levels. Excessive fluid intake (hyponatremia) can lead to cramping during exercise though. So if you're well-trained and not overweight, stretching especially before starting out might help.

marlin's question is harder. I'm guessing that the dizziness might have to do with low blood sugar - maybe if you eat something high in sugar, it gets rid of the dizziness, but causes an insulin reaction, which would explain the fatigue. See my long post on carbs somewhere in these forums. Maybe "pushing to the limit" uses up all your muscle glycogen and blood glucose, then you try to eat to compensate, but it's too late? Maybe try regular snacking (handfuls of GORP etc) while you're canoeing? I don't think it's related to electrolytes.

Good luck to both of you.

Posted this in the pfd thread, but it probably applies more here. 

I found that heat stress "wall" 2 weeks ago during the Death March out of Delahey.  It was 90, sunny, humid, with no wind.  I drank 2 liters of water before starting and had 2 liters with me.  Not enough.  I literally fell over with the canoe on the second leg as I reached the little pond midway on the 1.5 mile leg.  The canoe hit a 2-in birch sapling left of the trail dead on.  It must have bent away and then snapped back, sending me and the canoe to the ground.  Can't recall the last time that ever happened.  Just before the pond, I reach several rock boulders/faces that needed to be climbed up and over.  But when I tried to take the canoe off to rest, the yoke pad caught my head and next thing I knew the canoe was banging off the rocks and I was sprawled on my back to the left of the trail.  Thankfully, nothing was busted or sprained.  When I reached the pond, I sat in the shade for a good twenty min and even after the rest, my heart rate was still 120 beats per minute and I was sweating like a pig.  Ate a little trail mix, drank some more water, and triple portaged the rest of the Death March.  I recall paddling towards the last portage into Conmee and I could barely move my arms to move the yak paddle...really weird feeling.

It took me 8 hours to reach Suzanette, 6.5 hours was on the portage trail.  At the campsite, I unloaded the gear, sat in the water for a bit, then sat in my camp chair in the shade for about 75 minutes, just staring and soaking in the scenery.  Never felt dizzy or nauseous, just hot, very tired, and relieved the day was almost over.  Finally ate a PBJ sandwich with some gatorade and felt a little better.  Just before heading into the tent for the night, I recorded on my digital voice recorder I bring on solo trips: "Today was a bitch.  Hardest damn day I've ever had canoeing.  I'm 2/3 thirds of the way done with this tough physical trip...not sure I'm enjoying it that much.  I'm very achy, shoulders and back.  Not sure I'll ever do that Death March again without the boys or a partner."

While I never felt cramping, dizzyness, headaches, or nausea during the entire day, I did feel hot and my heart rate seemed elevated after the first 1/4 mile portage.  my clothes were soaked head to toe.  I tried to eat trail mix, peanut M&Ms, a few tootsie rolls, and drink water during the ordeal.  I wasn't hungry at all when I first got to camp...all I wanted to do was just sit there.  FInally ate the PBJ, but had to almost force myself to eat.  Didn't sleep well that night, but thankfully the next day was a layover day.  Good thing I was trolling the shoreline and not casting a spinnerbait to shore or I might have snagged this large black bass...

  (You need to Login or Register   (You need to Login or Register

I have found that one good way to stay cooler on a hot day while portaging is to soak a terry hand towel with water and drape it around your neck with the ends hanging down over your collar bones.  It stays put and doesn't get in the way of packs or yokes.

On warm weather trips I'll bit the bullet and take a big ol' bag of powdered Gatoraid. It's BIG and HEAVY but it seems to be worth the extra effort for the really sweaty days. I do feel better and have experimented a bit 'cause it's WAY BIGGER and HEAVIER that good ol' pre sweetened Kool-Aid.

When my calves do to try to cramp up is usually in my bag in the early mornings following somewhat dehydration prone days. If I stretch 'em out as soon as I feel it starting they pass quickly. Since I'm then wide awake, I'll want coffee. I don't buy into the coffee, soda, alcohol makes things worse mantra. If that were actual reality, I'd of dried up and blown away years ago. My kid already has more freaken water bottles than I've ever had in my whole life. "Gotta stay hydrated dad!" Well yeah OK fine but when did the word 'hydrated' enter our vocabularies anyway? Marketing creates another need for impressionable minds?



Quote:

I'm 2/3 thirds of the way done with this tough physical trip...not sure I'm enjoying it that much.

That sucks. Would you do it again?


Quote:

Not sure I'll ever do that Death March again without the boys or a partner.

Now you totally lost me. Misery loves company? I can understand wonder, necessity, challenges and pride. Known misery? I try to avoid misery whenever possible and would never wish to share it unless begged and dragged to do so by the fully warned. And I would hope the conditions were far better the second time. ;)

Ain't nothing wrong with getting to a camp early in the day (or late in the day) and just sitting there for a while. That's what I often do. Take time to look around, take stock and think - re-hydrate if you want to call it that or try just to remember what day it is. You may even look at a map and the sky and decide you want to press on and do it all over again later!

Tackling an arduous portage or bushwhack on a hot, muggy day presents risks that will likely be either greatly reduced OR significantly magnified by travel in a group.

Generally speaking, it probably helps, more often than not, working as part of a team.  You can do "sanity checks" and watch out for each other.

On the other hand, the operative word is "team".  The team must move well together.  Not everyone travels at the same speed or with equal loads... especially as types of terrain vary.  When Kingfisher & I have traveled together with various parties, we have tried to level-load our portage/bushwhack crossings according to individual capabilities and the geography.  In other words, there is a portage/bushwhack plan... including an understanding of how to handle matters if things somehow go awry for one or more of the party. 

Moving without a plan can result in undue stress and risk on individual party members.  One member may try to overcompensate for others who are moving at a slower speed.  Another member may feel "pressured" to go beyond what makes health sense for him/her in order to "keep up."   For longer portaging/bushwhacking, the plan must provide for hydration needs... especially where fresh water is scarce.  I've seen/heard/participated in too many "near-miss" hydration situations on this board which could have turned real ugly fast.

Traveling with a team is the smarter way to go... especially when the group behaves as a team.  When you have to go-it alone, I recommend extreme caution; be conservative with all of your decisions.

Jimbo   8-)

Joe_S
There is 2 times I am likely to get cramps. When I have been working may be over heated and I set down to rest as I cool off if a cool breeze hits me. The other is may be weeks after a trip during the night I will get cramps. It does seem if I stretch before bed I get fewer cramps.
MagicPaddler

In my case, the cramping I experienced was minimal until the last day and then it was in my hands (think joints of your little fingers trying to join up to the joints in your thumb).  But I'd attribute that mostly to a tough 6 hour paddle into the wind (I think if we'd delayed our start for another hour, we would had declared ourselves wind bound for the day).

My paddling partner was worried that I was having a cardiac issue, so I did make a trip to my cardiologist after the trip.   According to him, I've had no cardio changes since my last visit (good news!). 

So I'm left with one of two possibilities (or a combination of the two) which dehydration or the results of a medication I don't usually take that I ramped up on during the trip (it helps to reduce the impact of tremors in my hands which tends to make my photography blurry). 

I do know that mid-trip I was dehydrated because my urine output was very dark compared to normal.  Luckily this occurred during an extended layover during the hottest days of the trip (well over 90 degrees on those days) and I immediately started to consume more liquid.  Before getting back into portage mode, my urine had returned to its normal color.  However, during that work period, I wasn't urinating very often, despite massive liquid intake.

The reason I think the medication could have taken on a role in this situation is that I only take it on a very sporadic basis, "as needed" because it tends to tank my blood pressure.  And, when my blood pressure is low, I tend to feel tired and sometimes dizzy.  I stopped taking it at the end of the trip, but when I got home my blood pressure was very low for me.  I'm typically "high-normal" and 96/52 NEVER happens. 

I'm guessing I set myself up for a "perfect storm" with the weather conditions, dehydration, and medication; and paid the price for it.  Being the last portaging day of the trip, we were lightly loaded and most of the portages were either reasonably level or more down hill than up.  I say lightly loaded because we didn't even have the evening meal or last day's food in our packs ... it was cached on one of the last portages going out.

But, it did leave an impression and I'll not be doing THAT again!

dd

Quote:

… I don't buy into the coffee, soda, alcohol makes things worse mantra. If that were actual reality, I'd of dried up and blown away years ago…

I agree completely, DB, although I’m a little more conscious today to make sure I drink enough water during the day as I was when I was younger.  I always get amused when my high school students on our Friday workouts want to take a break after the first 10 minutes to get a drink…I usually tell them to suck it up and that they’ll survive for a little bit longer without hydrating.   :'(


Quote:

[quote]I'm 2/3 thirds of the way done with this tough physical trip...not sure I'm enjoying it that much.

That sucks. Would you do it again? [/quote]

I was fine by late morning the next day.  A wonderful calm, quiet sunrise with some coffee and a couple hours of fishing on calm waters has a way of making the tough journey well worth it.  I’d do a tough long trip again, but I usually don’t travel for several days straight.  I think I prefer a couple days of travel with some layover days at favorite campsites/lakes along the way.


Quote:

[quote]Not sure I'll ever do that Death March again without the boys or a partner.

Now you totally lost me. Misery loves company? I can understand wonder, necessity, challenges and pride. Known misery? I try to avoid misery whenever possible and would never wish to share it unless begged and dragged to do so by the fully warned. And I would hope the conditions were far better the second time. ;) [/quote]

I think Jimbo summed it up better than I ever could.  When my boys (now age 19 and 21) are with me, they carry more of the load than I do, except for the canoe.  They hate carrying the canoe.  Fine by me…the canoe is way lighter and easier for me to portage than 80+ pounds worth of packs.  And being together tends to make it easier (i.e, that team thing) by helping each of us endure the toughest parts of a trip, be it several consecutive days of wet, cold weather, or those tough billygoat or boot sucking mudbaths.  When soloing, all I have is myself, and sometimes it can get somewhat discouraging, like I felt that evening after the Death March.   Would I ever do the Death March again?  Probably, but not as a solo.


Quote:

Ain't nothing wrong with getting to a camp early in the day (or late in the day) and just sitting there for a while. That's what I often do. Take time to look around, take stock and think - re-hydrate if you want to call it that or try just to remember what day it is. You may even look at a map and the sky and decide you want to press on and do it all over again later!

Totally agree, and I‘ve done all those things.  I usually get to a campsite and after unloading and maybe setting up the tent or tarp, just lounge around for awhile before getting dinner ready or securing everything for the night.  Just sitting there looking and listening to nature satisfies my soul for hours on end. 

"Which electrolytes are better?"

don't have a clue, but I'll address Marlin's post anyway.

I'd guess that your blood is getting thicker as you get dehydrated, which impairs circulation and the ability to carry O2, and that is likely what causes that bit of dizzyness.  I've had that happen climing mountains a time or two when pushing too hard - I think its just not enough Oxygen getting to the brain ????

I have been touting the use of energy drinks probably a dozen or more times on here.  I think it makes a huge difference in sustained performance, especially if you are pushing your limits.  I use "Cytomax" energy drink rather than plain water - at least I will start out with it and use a quart of that before going to plain water.  Its just easier for your body to absorb the energy, and it cuts down on the "need" to eat solid foods - it takes energy to make that solid food into fuel, and your body will tend to shut down other functions a bit to digest the food - or it sits as a lump in your stomach (at least in mine). 

This past Saturday, I went to a local lake and did 3 laps around the shoreline.  I stay within a boat's length of the shore at a minimum, mostly stay within 6', and sometimes its within 3" and heeling the boat around a 270 deg turn to circle a rocky point - lots of steering, minimal "go straight"
so I only average about 3.5 mph - did 33.6 miles.  I started out with 3 pints of premixed cytomax, which took me thru most of two laps, and I started with water after that - drank a total of 2 1/2 quarts of liquid over a solid 9 hours in the sun.  Wasn't feeling any effects of dehydration though I didn't pee much.  Not super hot though, as I started out at dawn (maybe 65 deg?)  and finsihed at 3 before it got really too hot - likely was only in mid-eighties at 3pm.  Up untill I stopped at about 31 miles to eat a plum, all the solid food I ate was 4 little Hershey's mini's candy bars (little one bite sized chocolate bars).  I didn't "need" to stop to eat the plum, but the weather was holding nicely and I could afford to stop, so I did just to get off the boat seat for a bit.

Weekend before that, I went backpacking.  Hit the trailhead Friday evening at 6:45 and hiked up 3 miles to 11,000 feet to beat the heat -about an hour and a half to the top.  Did 22 or 23 miles on Saturday fueld by 2 1/2 pints of cytomax followed by another quart or two of water - that day got hot, even at 10,000 feet I was sweating a lot.  I did eat a bit more that day.  Finished up on Sunday with 3 1/2 mi to the truck.  Some blisters, but no cramping or dehydration.

  While hiking, I just hand carried a pint bottle and took a swig every few minutes or so.  While paddling, I kept a bottle handy and would drink every 15 minutes or so, when I got behind a point and out of the wind.

I never "hit the wall" on either trip, and didn't get cramps or get too dehydrated.   I think this stuff really works as advertised.  It certainly works for me, far outperforming just plain water.

I use it on all my Quetico trips, and it works about as well for my brother, though we don't push as hard when he is along.  It cuts down on the need for "big" lunches as you just don't feel too hungry, and saves a fair bit of weight in that regard.  It works best maybe, if you are pushing hard, but it also works if you aren't, just less noticeably maybe.

Is Cytomax the best thing going ?  don't know, don't care, but I would recommend it to you.  REI carries it, most health foods stores will, and you can find lots of places on line that sell it.  It does cost a lot more than water, but its worth it.

try it, you'll like it!

Quote:

… I don't buy into the coffee, soda, alcohol makes things worse mantra. If that were actual reality, I'd of dried up and blown away years ago… I agree completely, DB, although I’m a little more conscious today to make sure I drink enough water during the day as I was when I was younger.  I always get amused when my high school students on our Friday workouts want to take a break after the first 10 minutes to get a drink…I usually tell them to suck it up and that they’ll survive for a little bit longer without hydrating.

Just becasue something hasn't happened to you ( yet), doesn't disprove the science, which has been extensive on the subject.
Sports drinks have there place. If your pushing hard, for extended lengths of time, like I know Mad Mat does most of the time, there valuable. For the " average consumer" even if you exercise vigorously for say an hour a day, there more marketing hype than fact. Plain old water in sufficient quantities is the best. If you need some flavor there are plenty of options to add a little taste. All these expensive sports drinks/energy drinks that are consumed in large quantities by gullible "wanna-be's" are just a waste of your money and do more harm than good over the long haul.

I Googled " Why not soda/alcohol/coffee for hydration?" and found plenty of reputable sites that explain it well. Here's one I found that spells it out and answers some of the other questions that were asked.

  (You need to Login or Register

I think you're quite correct, ST.  My earlier comment in response to DB was meant for the "average" person.  Sports drinks are nice to have, but probably don't add anything for normal workouts and activities, maybe a "mental" boost, but not really a physical boost.  I have no doubt they are beneficial for elite athletes and hard-core trippers...

pine_knot wrote on Aug 1^st, 2011 at 4:02pm:

I think you're quite correct, ST.  My earlier comment in response to DB was meant for the "average" person.  Sports drinks are nice to have, but probably don't add anything for normal workouts and activities, maybe a "mental" boost, but not really a physical boost.  I have no doubt they are beneficial for elite athletes and hard-core trippers...

Like everything else the consumer needs to beware. Many so called Sports drinks are merely dubious chemical concoctions, loaded with sugar and caffeine. You get a quick buzz and then you crash. The good ones like M_M_ referenced have been proven by elite athletes/ sports doctors and work as advertised.
Coffee has been proven to be a excellent source of anti-toxins as well as a energy boost for mind and body. Getting your caffeine from coffee gets you those health benefits that you don't get from energy drinks/sodas. Drawback is that it's also a diuretic. If you rely on it or other diuretics for your hydration, your putting your self at risk for long term chronic de-hydration and its nasty effects as the article I referenced talked about.
Since most Americans don't exercise regularly or engage in strenuous recreational pursuits like tripping, they might go for years before they find out their chronically de-hydrated and have developed serious health issues becasue of it.

I'm a cheap SOB. The idea of spending 2-3 $ on a Sport/Energy drink or bottle of " magical" water just makes me want to vomit :'( If your water source is deemed pure, then that's all you need.  I drink a pot of coffee a day, have for years. I sleep great and no shakes if I don't get it. I also drink plenty of water to offset the diuretic effect of the caffeine.
I cringe when I see all these people, especially kids gorging themselves on soda pop and sports drinks. The makers are raking in billions in profits and the general public will pay the price in health care costs as the diabetes/obesity epidemics grow as fast as the nations waistlines.
  Think health care costs are high now? Wait till the current generation hits their middle age years or even before. You'll be seeing more and more people on early SS disability retirements and health-care costs that nobody can afford.

Sports drinks may be a waste of money for most people in most situations, but they aren't harmful, and sometimes can be better than plain water for non-elite athletes as well as olympic class and above.

Sports drinks as I know them basically contain two things besides water: carbs (ie sugar) and electrolytes. (Are there really "sports drinks" out there containing caffeine?)

Any source of carbs will work as well as a sports drink, but as M_M has posted, sometimes liquid sugar is easier on the stomach than a solid source. I like dilute Gatorade for long runs in hot weather too, but for canoeing, I just eat a handful of gorp every half hour or so.

The electrolytes' main benefit (imo) is that they make hydration more efficient: water gets transported across the walls of the small intestine into the bloodsream faster, so you don't feel so bloated when you're trying to pour gallons of fluid down your throat. On my recent 10+ litre day, I wished I had Gatorade or something similar with me, because a lot of the time I felt I was forcing the water down, almost always drinking even though I didn't feel thirsty.

I think I'm as cynical as anyone here regarding marketing gimmicks, but remember that the first sports drinks were developed with no commercial applications in mind. Gatorade was invented at the University of Florida solely to help their football team win more games (hence the name). It was only later when its effectiveness became well-known that it was marketed to the general public.

Are one sports drink's electrolytes better than another's? Well, they all claim that they are. Maybe this is where elite athletes might see a difference.

Quote:

(Are there really "sports drinks" out there containing caffeine?)

Well that's the real question isn't it?
I don't think there is any regulation out there that limits ingredients or makes the manufactures prove their claims.

I'm sure some of the drinks that are labeled " Sports Drinks" and have proven themselves overtime and in use by real athletes do help your performance and to stay hydrated.

I'm also as sure many drinks that people by and consume thinking them to be " Sports Drinks" are nothing but sugar and caffeine. Sugar is a simple carb, a poor choice for fuel over a long haul. You should be running on complex carbs provided by real food, not chemical concoctions. The simple sugar carb " might" help top off the tank, but is a poor substitute for the complex carb.

However to the "average" person or the weekend warrior, the difference between a " Sports Drink" and a " Energy Drink" isn't something many people are going to worry about.

If your exerting yourself and getting fatigued, it seems like more "Energy" is what you need, or at least the marketing folks hope you feel that way.

Most serious weekend warriors or pro athletes use products that have science behind them not marketing gimmicks or some overpaid jock hyping something he has no clue whether it works or is even safe to use.

The World Health Organization (WHO) suggest the following mixture for oral rehydration therapy (ORT):

6 teaspoons of sugar (either white or natural sugars; e.g., honey, molasses)
1/2 teaspoon of salt
1 liter of water

Most rehydration drinks seem to have these components plus some additional ingredients (mostly flavoring, coloring and perservative, I suspect).

Personally, I would also seek a source of potassium if cramping is involved.  My go-to food for this has historically been a product called shoestring potatoes (a.k.a. papitas fritas).  The potatoes, of course, contain potassium.  Potatoes are not the greatest source ... things like raisins and almonds are much better.  However the shoestring potatoes also have salt.  (Preparation typically also involves vegetable oil and baking.)

So, on hard portage days, I generally have shoestring potatoes handy as a food source.  This item is extremely light weight, but probably needs to be repackaged into snack sized plastic bags to make it water resistant.  (Once, as I sat eating this at the picnic table at Prairie Portage, I had a young member of the staff walk by and declare that the container it comes in is a CAN!  It IS a cardboard tube with metal caps, but then I wasn't carrying it INTO the park.)

I've even given this to other members of my traveling party when they developed cramping.  The last time I did that was on a backpacking trip to the Sawtooth range in Idaho.  One of our group, an avid cycler that commonly did 100 mile races, developed cramps going over one of the passes.  I gave him a handful of shoestring potatoes and water.  Within a matter of minutes, he was good to go again.

dd

Quote:

Personally, I would also seek a source of potassium if cramping is involved.  My go-to food for this has historically been a product called shoestring potatoes (a.k.a. papitas fritas).  The potatoes, of course, contain potassium.  Potatoes are not the greatest source ... things like raisins and almonds are much better.  However the shoestring potatoes also have salt.  (Preparation typically also involves vegetable oil and baking.)

I find the same thing, but get my potassium a little bit different than you do.
Normally at home, I try to avoid extra salt, becasue so much of it is hidden in food, that getting to much is more of an issue than to little.
I make my own Trail Mix by tweaking stuff I buy pre-packaged or in bulk. I purposefully add salted almonds and raisins if they're not already in the mix. I also make sure there's plenty of dried fruit in the mix.
Continually munching this mix and drinking water until I pee clear has kept dehydration at bay on the hottest days for me.
Still, when the temp and humidity are high enough, you just have to say, enough is enough. Start at first light, triple portage and along with plenty of liquid, cool off as much as possible. During peak sunlight hours, stop find some shade and lay up in your hammock for awhile ;)
Doesn't make any sense to push to the brink or into total exhaustion/dehydration. Besides the health risks and possible death, it's supposed to be a enjoyable activity, not the Bataan Death March ;D

solotripper wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2011 at 4:48pm:

I find the same thing, but get my potassium a little bit different than you do. Normally at home, I try to avoid extra salt, because so much of it is hidden in food, that getting to much is more of an issue than to little.

I'm with you on salt in-take.  I NEVER eat shoestring potatoes other than on trips ... WAY too much salt.  And, at home, my preference is for unsalted nuts ... yet, I take salted almonds on trips.

I just have to be careful when I'm working hard (either at home or in the field) because I produce an enormous amount of sweat ... after a normal walk in the summer, I can literally wring moisture out of my t-shirt.  It will also be loaded with salt stains.  I've been known to go for an hour and a half walk and return 5 pounds lighter ... clearly that's almost all water (and salt).

After a trip, I also have to wash down my packs, especially the parts which come in contact with my body.  They will also have salt stains, which would likely attract critters for the salt if I didn't take care of it.

The part that got me on my last trip is the unexpected suddenness of dehydration/heat exhaustion.  I'd run my canoe and light pack 3/4th the way across a 165 rod portage, returned for my second (double-pack) load and carried that completely across the portage.  It wasn't until I started back down the trail that I found I was out of gas.  I'd not dropped my first load part way due to fatigue.  I had to return to that approximate location to retrieve a food cache stashed on our way in.  I marked its location with my GPS, which was inside my canoe.  After I retrieved the cache, I was all-in and just had to sit beside the trail until I had a little rebound.

This was portage #7 for the day and I had no issues on any previous portage (although they were mostly short). After a lunch break (I didn't eat) and rest, #8 was reasonably easy, but #9 was beyond my physical ability once I'd carried my first load across.  Its just that I went from slightly tired to done in just a few minutes.  I've not been that deep into heat exhaustion before, primarily because I can feel the early effects and take remedial action.  It was just bizarre.  I guess the mid-80's temp combined with about 70% humidity didn't help much.  I did that last portage in a deluge, sans rain gear, and the rain was warm.

dd

Been dehydrated twice.

The first time was as a Junior Ranger in the Cochrane Ontario area.  Thumbs down for the camp co-ordinators for not ensuring everyone had water.  I did get off work duty for that day!

The second time was 100% my own damn fault.  I did a big lake crossing without any water.  4 hours on a summer day without a drop.  Then I started the 1.3km portage.  About halfway through I decided to take a nap.  Then I realised what the problem was.  Hucked my pack into the abs canoe and dragged it to the end of the port where I gulped down a lot of questionable water.  Then I made for the nearest campsite, led there by minnows jumping at the bow of my canoe singing "This Way, This Way".  Halucinations not uncommon from dehydration.

Since then I'm very aware of my water-in-urine-out.  Low or brightly coloured output means I chug a L & plan to finish another L over the next little while.

I pack electrolytes, but save them for when needed.  Long hot days while I'm working/sweating.  Not for every day.  I much prefer to maintain via diet than supplements.  Salt is so easy to get in practically everything we eat.  Typicaly a tube of this lasts 2 years for me.    (You need to Login or Register

All good discussion here.  Living down south, we're typically greeted with substantially cooler temps than our backyards when we go on canoe trips in July and August.  It's my experience that people tend to drink more when the water is flavored, be it koolaid, tea or some sports drink mix.  That's the greatest benefit.

Swim/wet your clothes before and after a portage if at all possible.  If you're wet footing the landings anyway, just take a dip on each end.  At the terminus of many longer portages, I walk in to shoulder level if possible and just flip the canoe over.

Quote:

After a lunch break (I didn't eat) and rest, #8 was reasonably easy, but #9 was beyond my physical ability once I'd carried my first load across

I'll bet that low blood sugar might have played a hand in your crashing? I sweat like you do and have found that a combination of heat/humidity effects my appetite. I bet if you would of eaten a few handfuls of Gorp you might not of crashed the way you did.
Still might of been pooped and rightly so considering the conditions, but that sudden drop in energy to me is a sign that your blood sugar might of dropped to low.

My current " job" consists of working 3-12 hour shifts in what they call the Glass Bonding area. We attach the metal components of auto sunroofs to the raw glass with commercial urethane that needs moisture ( humidity) to cure.
Minimum humidity has to be 35% plus and room temp is in the high 80+. The have misters on the roof to keep it that way, and are work area is encased in plastic panels like you see on commercial loading docks.
On a average shift I handle 600+ sun roof sub assemblies that weigh between 30-40 lbs. That and all the racking/gaging and water tests they're respective programs call for.
In 2 years I've gone from last in seniority to 3rd, because people can't take the heat and humidity and the physical strain.
Considering that I'm 30+ years older than the next oldest person, keeping hydrated and eating right is the only way I can do my job.
The " kids" all laugh at " Old School" ( my work nickname), but when they see me work and thrive while most of them wilt, they soon change their tune ;)
Of course I eat healthy, drink the right stuff ( water) and get at least 6-8 hours sleep the days work.
The kids live on junk food, Red Bull/ Monster energy drinks and try to get their rest on the job ::)
You really are what you eat and drink, never so true than when your in the bush and the load is all on you ;D

solotripper wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2011 at 8:46pm:

Quote: After a lunch break (I didn't eat) and rest, #8 was reasonably easy, but #9 was beyond my physical ability once I'd carried my first load across I'll bet that low blood sugar might have played a hand in your crashing? I sweat like you do and have found that a combination of heat/humidity effects my appetite. I bet if you would of eaten a few handfuls of Gorp you might not of crashed the way you did.

Lets just say that skipping lunch was not by choice.  At that point I was pretty much certain that anything going down was coming back up.

So, I drank water and rested.

dd

solotripper wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2011 at 8:46pm:

Quote: After a lunch break (I didn't eat) and rest, #8 was reasonably easy, but #9 was beyond my physical ability once I'd carried my first load across I'll bet that low blood sugar might have played a hand in your crashing?

That was my first reaction too - marathoners call it "hitting the wall" for a reason !

You gotta be proactive on both fuel and water. ;)

My advice is common knowledge among the backpacking crowd but I'll put it on the table for folk who perhaps have never heard this concise and helpful saying.............."Clear and Copius"

Yup......watch your urine stream and if your yellow it's time to increase your intake of fluids. Copius refers to intervals. You should be evacuating often and it should be fairly clear. My bailer (obviously mis-named) sees plenty of use early in the day as it is common for me to drink a litre or more of water before shoving off. Then it is a simple matter of keeping a close watch. Your stream tells the tale. Dark golden yellow and your pushin the limits. Expect a headache brought on by dehydration soon thereafter.

Quote:

My bailer (obviously mis-named) sees plenty of use early in the day as it is common for me to drink a litre or more of water before shoving off.

I think that's a very good point and sound advice.
If you look at many peoples liquid intake in the evening, you can see the potential for problems the next day if the conditions are right.
It's no secret that as we age ( especially men) we need to urinate more often, but in smaller amounts. Many campers both young and old, dread the midnight P-call, especially in the buggy season.
Consciously or not, people tend to restrict their fluid intake before bedtime.
We also might have some evening cocktails. Alcohol dehydrates you and even a few after dinner cups of coffee with or with or without booze in them adds to the dehydration, caffeine being a diuretic as well.
Even in winter we dehydrate overnight, even more so in warm weather.
It's very common to have your morning urine dark, a sure sign of dehydration. Then many of us have a cup or two of morning Joe, and we make a bad situation worse.
I always have at least a liter of water before/immediately leaving morning camp, even though I know the coffee I had will make me pee a lot at least until it's flushed from my body.
Medications can change urine color, so those who take them, might find the urine color test insufficient for their hydration assessment.
For the majority of us, peeing as clear as possible and consuming enough fluids to keep it that way 24/7 will go a long way in avoiding dehydration.
Still with the brutal heat and humidity were facing this year, there comes a time when you have to know when to get off the water and stay off it. Start at first light and quit by noon. If you need to travel more, you can always start again late in the day. This is where those built-in camp days come in handy ;)

A little embarrassed now.  First let me give my excuses.  My dad was under doctor’s orders to consume as little salt as he could.  Every one knows salt is bad for you and we all get too much.  Just to be healthy I have always used little salt and avoid salty snacks.
Now for the confession.  I tried adding more salt to food just for a test.  90% of my cramps are gone.  I think if adding salt gets rid of cramps my health can stand a little more salt. 

Magicpaddler wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 12:10am:

I tried adding more salt to food just for a test.  90% of my cramps are gone.  I think if adding salt gets rid of cramps my health can stand a little more salt.

I guess that's why every re-hydration/electolyte drink (or powder) I've come across has salt in it.  I suspect the sugar content is to get it into your system faster.

dd

Hey ST - Absolutely no offense intended but last few years, when I take a wizz in the Q ... I sometimes think of you. :D

It's good advice! Yet at times we'd rather push-on a little further than filter and re-hydrate. That's life. Not old enough for a dedicated tent bottle. ;)

As a kid I worked in canning factories. It was a hot, steamy job. One job in particular, I had a desk between two cookers. On hot days the nurse would come around with salt pills. A number of us (including her) would go out drinking at night so sometimes she'd stand there and watch us take 'em. I always thought that the little old ladies upstairs were adding little drops of goodness into everything we canned and the guy who mixed the brine could cut back a little. Timing is everything.

Quote:

Hey ST - Absolutely no offense intended but last few years, when I take a wizz in the Q ... I sometimes think of you.

  ;D  Better to be pissed off than pissed on ;)
Speaking of dehydration/ muscle cramping, did anyone see that video of Pro Tennis player Rafael Nidal suffering a Charley Horse at the post game interview :'(
Just shows that even a professional athlete with all their support can find themselves the victim of dehydration.
Fortunately he probably had off camera help to massage his cramp out. Anyone that has ever had a leg cramp while alone, knows how difficult and painful is to relieve. Imagine that happening on the trail solo, it could put you in a real bad way.
I've had a few calf cramps in middle of night that left me struggling to stretch out.
I even keep a old leather belt in a loop hanging on my bedpost to loop over toe area and stretch the cramp out if needed.
I drink a lot but sometimes even that isn't enough.

Good discussion. Just catching up as I've been away for awhile.

WalMart's 'Great Value' line produces a number of drink mixes, some of which are labelled 'Hydration' which contain electrolytes, and some labelled 'Energy', which contain caffeine & B vitamins. I carry ample quantities of both kinds. I keep them in my shirt pockets in a ziplock, so they are handy. They go into the food pack at night. If hydration is an issue, I will use 2-3 packets (depending on severity) per qt. Sometimes I will mix them (it takes 2 packets per qt), to have a little caffeine along with electrolytes. This seems to work well for me and it is the most economical way to go. I avoid sugared sports beverages, as I have diabetic issues to watch.