As if I haven't got enough on my plate.....starting early inquiry on a solo royalex river boat with good capacity for extended trips and able to handle class 2 WW well with decent tracking on flatwater.

The Argosy had good reviews but seems limited load wise. So far the Swift Raven has my attention. Does anyone own one? Open to other suggestions?

I own an Argosy and use it for small creeks. I agree unless you're a small guy it might be a bit small to stay dry on whitewater rivers, although Cliff J always used a Bell Wildfire (same size) on the Steel River. The Steel isn't a big river though, and Cliff is a small guy.

I'd look at Bell's Rockstar too.

Send me an email and I'll forward you to a Raven owner.

I've heard great things about the Raven and looked at one when I was shopping around for canoes.

Oddly Wenonah doesn't put load ranges on, but they do provide waterline width.  How would they know the waterline without knowing how much weight to hit that waterline?  Anecdotally I never had any problems with putting ~300# in one, myself at 230# + two packs.

This canoe gets good reviews. A little bigger than some solo's but still responsive.

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The Supernova is an interesting boat as well. I know little about canoe design but I am under the impression that the Nova would be a bit more nimble in the frothy stuff and the Raven would track a bit better on flat water.

I think I have eliminated the Bell solo river boats as being a bit small and being more dedicated to white water.

I dunno. This sitting around post op recovery is not good for me. To much time to dream. This is still a few years out. But I need skills (of which I have very little) which means I need WW lessons. Of course I would prefer to have those lessons in a boat I intend on using.

I wonder how the Expedition would do in WW. A decked boat with a kevlar-S glass layup. Supposed to be plenty strong. Get it pinned though and it might be tough to get out as opposed to a Royalex boat that has some flex. Or it just might get a nice big fat hole in it. I guess a guy could bring plenty of rope and pulleys and a repair kit.
It doesn't look especially nimble though. I guess I'll find out soon enough.
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Still thinking the Raven might be the ticket.
   

where you at ?  Floridiana ?

I suggest you add the Wenonah Rendezvous to your list.

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I have one and use it extensively for river tripping.  Handles CII well and is good enough tracking that many people I know paddle thiers sit n' switch.

while Wen only shows the boat in Rx, you can get them in tuffweave layup or kevlar layups - they are common enough that you can likely find used ones in the 5 to 8 hundred dollar range - new, they run about 300 less than Raven.

I can think of 7 other people here who have the boat (likely there are more than that in the groups I paddle with) -only  one is Rx, the others are composite and they get used in the same CII tripping condions as teh Rx boats.  Everybody I know that has one likes the boat and I've never heard of anyone getting rid of thiers for something else - I have taken mine thru CIII on daytrips - sometimes without swimming - just a bit too long and not enough rocker for that, but doable.  The boat is fairly dry, but with its sharp entry, it helps to backpaddle in the biggest waves to give the bow a chance to rise. 

I've never seen a Raven, but comparing the specs, the 'vous is a bit longer and slimmer - I think it is the fastest of the solo "river trippers", and it is a bit more of an all round boat than the Raven.  Raven may be a tad better in technical ww - or not?

Two years ago, I had mine on a trip with 4 sea kayaks on a mostly C1 river with a bit of C11 - did 60 miles in two days, and I wasn't the slowest boat.  Have done the first 60 miles of Missinaibi from Dog Lake in 3 days - that's about 50 miles of lake and 10 river with 3? portages, with a load for 28 days.

There are usually several tandems in our groups - i never have any trouble keeping up with them.   

For CII, you will want to "bag" the boat and install knee pads so you can kneel in the bigger rapids - but you'd need to do that with the Raven or any other boat as well.

I used my boat last Satruday on the Colorado - 3? sections of CII wave train and many CI's in 14 miles, and I never took on any water. 

I do pack a lot lighter than you (one reason my knees haven't totally blown out yet - ha ha) but you should have no trouble packing a week's worth of gear or more.  Typically, I carry a large dry bag behind the seat and ahead of the floatation bag, a smallish cooler squeezed in between them; and daypack and misc ahead of the front thwart behind the bow bag- you can pack stuff under the bags and inflate to hold in place as well.

some people don't like the Rendezvous - mostly that is due to older Rx boats not being set up right ('05 and prior vintage I think - mine is '05 and I did the recommended modifications) - later boats have more flare and the seat positioned better.  You can get a sliding bucket seat if you prefer that style - at least that is what my friends all have in thier kev boats.

worth considering anyways

"I wonder how the Expedition would do in WW. A decked boat with a kevlar-S glass layup. Supposed to be plenty strong. Get it pinned though and it might be tough to get out as opposed to a Royalex boat that has some flex. Or it just might get a nice big fat hole in it. I guess a guy could bring plenty of rope and pulleys and a repair kit.
It doesn't look especially nimble though. I guess I'll find out soon enough."

18' of boat is not going to be too nimble in a rock garden - they don't seem to have any spec for rocker either - ?

Thanks for taking the time Mat, I have come to have respect for your opinion.

I took a look at the Rendezvous. I too came across some of the negative reviews of the older models. For some odd reason I am not drawn to Wenonah hulls (Even though I have never paddled one!!).

I'm thinking I need decent volume. I'm not going all that way for a 10 day trip. 2 weeks would be minimum. My focus would be pool and drop type rivers such as the bloodvein and the Berrens.

Yup, I haven't a clue about the rocker (or lack thereof) in the Expedition. I know it has a foot controlled rudder. It should do nicely in the glades. Like my Magic, I bought it without ever having laid eyes on it, much less taken it for a test drive. With no dealers in Michigan I wouldn't be surprised to follow suit with the Raven. Crazy I know.........

 

Took another look at the Rendezvous. I was wrong about it having a limited load carrying capacity. Looks to be plenty adequate. Read lots of reviews on it and they were mixed but lots of folks really liked them. I probably wouldn't know any difference and would adapt well to either boat. Still, I think I am drawn to the Raven.

I too highly respect M_M opinions. But I have to disagree with him on the Rendezvous, or at least repeat it's a love it/hate it boat. The people I know didn't have a trim problem, it was too much tumblehome for pushy directional waves. Though it might be better on big western whitewater rivers than it is on more technical whitewater. They seem to really push them in Colorado.

The Supernova was said to be "not a very responsive boat". This was from a river guide/outfitter who rented them. He preferred a more full blown ww boat though, i.e. Dagger Genesis, Esquif Vertige, they're slow on the flats.

The whole idea of doing rivers is running some kind of current. Eventually you'll wish you had a boat that would turn quick and dance with you in the ww stuff, even if it's slow paddling the flats.

MT, If you need ww experience and want to try the Bloodvein, look at Northern Soul. I've done several outfitted river trips, not w/NS, but I talked to them @ canoecopia and I would go with them. Somebody is always needing ww lessons during a trip. You get a trip and lessons too. You will probably get into bigger ww with they're blessings by the end of the trip than you would if you did it solo & by the seat of your pants. Just make sure you're honest about your paddling experience when you talk to them.

All just my opinion. I know the DIY urge is strong, but I'll bet you'd be glad you took a trip with a ww instructor/guide.

Thanks Jim
I have already looked into a guided trip. The Seal is out of sight coming in at $4500. The bloodvein is around $3000 and that includes shuttles.

I suppose I'll just take some WW classes (I currently know zip, as in nada, nothing) and learn on the fly. A good reliable boat with a spray cover and a healthy dash of respect for the power of the water should allow me to ease in. I figure in August the flow won't be to bad and will allow easy access to portages for scouting or chickening out. A spot AND a SAT phone along with a few willing accomplices will round things out.   

"As if I haven't got enough on my plate.....starting early inquiry on a solo royalex river boat with good capacity for extended trips and able to handle class 2 WW well with decent tracking on flatwater."

yeah, but     that above says "river tripper" to me

"Though it might be better on big western whitewater rivers than it is on more technical whitewater."

exactly!!!, which is right at the cusp of wanting/needing a true ww boat - (Wen is nuts to call the Rendezvous a ww boat - it ain't .....)  as the guide below preferred

"The Supernova was said to be "not a very responsive boat". This was from a river guide/outfitter who rented them. He preferred a more full blown ww boat though, i.e. Dagger Genesis, Esquif Vertige, they're slow on the flats."


None of the boats mentioned, except in the paragraph above are WW boats they are too long, don't have enough rocker, and aren't likely to be set up with kneeling pedastal and knee straps- rather, they are "river tripping boats" and you need both for different kinds of trips, or you need to carefully decide which is the better choice for your paddling overall.

last weekend's outing was car camping - I took the 'vous for Saturday's run of a 14 mile stretch - with 3 or 4 CIIs which were just big wave trains in which I could generally dodge the biggest waves, and with most of the run being much easier -  a mainly sitting on the seat paddle.  Sunday, I did a 3 1/2 mile much more technical CII+ run which was about half rapids with only short stretches of flatwater in between - I took my ww boat (Dagger Impulse) for that and aimed at the biggest waves, played in rock eddies, and generally had a lot of fun.  one boat was better for Sat, the other better for Sun.

If I were going to do the Allagash again (someday) I'd take the 'vous - its perfect for a 100 mile week long trip that is half lake and half river and could take on the nine mile CII Chase rapids and cruise the slower flatwater at the lower 1/4 of the trip.  My knees wouldn't forgive me if I tried that in the ww boat with a saddle.

I don't know the Bloodvien - maybe a ww boat is called for there, or maybe not.  If I did the Missinaibi again, I'd still choose the 'vous over the ww boat for its carrying capacity and cruising speed on flats, which there is a lot of.

I've only done one 3 day trip with the Impulse - at 12' +, its big for a ww baot by todays standards, but is still small for carrying a tripping load.  I don't think I could take a week in the boat.

the 14' boats, like a Bell Wildfire/Yellowstone Solo or MR Guide/Freedom Solo or Wen Argosy would be better in the technical stuff that the longer boats, and if that is more what you would be paddling, than they would be better options, giving up some capacity and speed for a bit more nimbleness - but still not up to snuff when you need/want a ww boat for play and fun and yes, for rocky technical rivers

best thing is to buy both as neither will excell in both conditions, and finding used boats is the best way to go as you can buy two for the price of one new boat.

Succinctly put Matt! You have put all in perspective. The river tripping I am initially inclined to pursue is "pool and riffle" type where most of the current is restricted to the individual rapid or fall only.

Thus a rather substantial amount of flatwater is to be expected. There are 85 runnable rapids on the stretch of the bloodvein that interests me. For a novice it is more likely in the 40's (dependent on water volume of course)......... At least according to the info I have.

Knowing my propensity to "wet a line" I can foresee this type of river (pool and drop) holding my interest for several trips.

I suspect the Rendezvous would accomplish the task just fine especially the recent improved versions. Still, the Raven has my attention. I usually don't get used products but it is a consideration. Other than Craigs list is there other avenues to pick one up? I haven't really put my thinking towards it.   

This winter I picked up a used MR Guide Solo for just the purposes you are describing - solo river tripping with mild WW.  It is not a heavy WW boat, but is a solo river tripper that is capable of handling CII and some CIII water.  It tracks well enough on the flat water, and with the proper strokes I was able to paddle it as efficiently and effectively as my MR Explorer tandem. 

These boats (assuming the Rave and Rendevous are similar hull shapes) are great for solo river tripping where there is ample opportunity to play in CII/short CIII and lots of flatwater in between with room for gear.  They are not for playing in serious whitewater, though I'm sure with the proper outfitting and skills, they could handle some hairy stuff.  But those who have the proper skills and outfitting and play in the heavy stuff often would likely have true banana shaped WW boats.

About the MR Guide (not at all like the Old Town Guide BTW) now called the Mad River Freedom Solo, in case you are interested:  I like it a lot.  It carried me through a very swollen spring Pine Creek Gorge trip in north central PA this year (gauge at 5.5 feet instead of the usual 3.5 - cfs was about 10X the usual flow for that time of year) with my gear for the long weekend, handled long (mile +) stretches of CII, and some shorter CIII (though I skirted the biggest stuff), and was a joy to paddle.  It does ship water over the bow and gunwhales in the waves (a well-known drawback of this canoe for those who have experience with it - a spray skirt would help, and I may outfit with float bags for next springs trip down the pine so that I can play more), but it was not so much that the occasional bailing could not keep up with it.  I've since had it out on calmer rivers, and it paddled just as well on the flat water as my companion's all-purpose tandems (Old Town Guide, Coleman ram-x, and OT Tripper).  In Royalex layup, it's about 55 lbs. 

You may want to look at this canoe also.

Right you are on it shipping water. I came across those comments from other reviews as well. After watching lots of utube videos I like the idea of a skirted boat on WW though so I don't much figure it would matter that much. Watching some of those big haystacks fill a boat gets your attention.

Since you have a WW boat and like to fish you are invited. I'll be looking for volunteers in a few years. ;)  All you need is 3 weeks, gas money to get there and enough dough to help pay for the floatplane shuttle back. (Lord willing and if the creek don't rise).........should be a blast.

"a spray skirt would help, and I may outfit with float bags for next springs trip down the pine so that I can play more),"

pgh,

change that "may" to should!  floatation bags do help keeping out some of the water, but they are mainly to help keep your boat from pinning on a rock.. by displacing enough water to keep the boat floating much higher that without bags, you significantly reduce the chance and or severity of a pin, and increase your ability to self rescue (boat floats much higher - upside down, they will be right on top of the water) - which is kinda important on a solo trip especially, eh?  but still important on group trips.

I've never been sold on the notion of spray skirts - lots of northern river trippers use them, but there is an increased risk of entrapment, and you need to have a really strong setup to keep the heavy ww from collapsing them.... and if you do get water in the boat, you will have a loaded boat to deal with, increasing odds of a pin and making it more difficult to self rescue.. but I don't have any real experience to say yay or nay for sure.

Pros and cons........
With the flotation wouldn't the boat ride high negating the cause and affect concerning trapping water with a skirt? I dunno, seems like it would be nice to just keep the stuff out to begin with. A horrible thought though to consider getting swept up underneath......all over but the crying as they say. Maybe I'll just do partial coverings. I'll likely be to chicken to need anything more than that anyways. What's  the old saying....."I've seen bold canoeists and I've seen old canoeists but not to many bold, old canoeists"

I have been looking at floatation all morning. I came across this thread on how to install the webbing without drilling holes in the boat. It's near the bottom of the page, what do you think?
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My bags and duffels are absolutely water tight. They should provide quite a bit of additional floatation provided they are lashed in place. I have read pro and con regarding this. One view was that your bags should be leashed but allowed to float free. Not crazy about having several lines about. When I flipped my Merlin with 2 duffels inside I was sort of surprised at how high it floated upside down. I was able to get to shore rather easily. Of course that is a small carbon fiber boat loaded for a day trip but still the concept remains the same and likely even more important in moving water, that is, that it remain as buoyant as possible. This is all new to me. I think I'm on the right track but what say you?

To tie in or leash or nothing. 

Most opinions I've heard are that leashing on WW is a bad idea.  Too many ropes to get hung up & tangle the canoe in a situation where it would otherwise have floated clear.  People are pretty split on tieing in or allowing your packs to float free of the canoe.  Even tied in they provide opportunity for the canoe to get hung-up on something it might have bounced/floated over.  Bill Mason said let them float free.

There's a salient difference between float bags & packs.  Float bags add flotation as well as displacing water when the canoe is swamped.  Packs don't offer the same flotation in a swamped canoe.  Neither provide any floatation until the canoe is swamped.

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For overall versatility I think a spray skirt would get more use.  Keeps the rain out.  Makes big water more navigable, less worry of getting caught when the waves whip up.  Bags being more like a parachute, uselss until you actually need it - then you really want to have it.  Preventative vs. curative.

I can add a comment about spray skirts on northern trips. Their usually isn't any room left for flotation bags on these trips, and the best skirts are heavily built.

Preacher makes some good points. Bags or skirts both work, I've gone both ways. If you go with bags, just finish filling your boat with air bags, for and aft of your gear. Might not be necessary for "pool & riffle" stuff, but if you progress into bigger stuff, definitely do it. Another plus for spray skirts is they're warmer. Besides keeping you drier as you travel, they're handy for stuffing things under them that you want to keep dry and the skirt can be pulled up as a quick windbreaker.