OK, I want your thoughts.

I've paddled a Wenonah Champlain for several years and am comfortable with it. I'm about 200 lbs, and my canoe-less paddling partner is equally big.

This year, I'm paddling with a smaller guy (say 160) and he owns a MNII, which I've never paddled.

Should we take his canoe?

(We are going for 8-9 days in mid-September ... the other tandem in the party is a Bell Mystic ... probably up through Louisa and Glacier way.)

-- kypaddler

I'd go with the MN2, since you've never paddled one.

That weight difference will likely dictate who's in the stern, though the 18' length may mitigate this.  I was once tandemed in a 15' with someone 60# lighter than me.  He tried to put me in the bow, it was an interesting ride.

Heck, if you can convince the Mystic to take the Champlain you can play about comparing these similar Wenonahs.

The II is a great ride.

I like the MNII over the Champlain almost anytime but especially with a lighter load. Yellowbird and I cursed our Champlain for 10 days on one trip. We both weigh under 175 lbs even with wet boots on and there was just too much bow exposed to the wind on the Champlain.

Thank you for your input.

As far as:
Quote:

too much bow exposed to the wind on the Champlain

, you've got that right. One year my bow-man weighed just a buck 55, and we took a long day trip (sans packs). On the return, the wind kicked up and was blowing us all over the place ... including blowing us backward at one point. I had to put a couple of (very flat) rocks in the front on the next portage to hold it down.

At that point I wanted to trade it in ...

And sure, it's a little slower (though I've never noticed much of a problem keeping up with other tandems).

But I do like the way it handles in waves. Looking forward to comparing that aspect to the MNII.

The only other canoes I've paddled from the stern have been an old aluminum with a keel and a little Jensen.

Anybody else own or have paddled a Champlain? Opinions, positive or negative?

-- kypaddler

. 

I own a MNII .  For the past 3 years my paddling partner has been a 160-170 pounder and I am about 210.  We have no problems with him as bowman and have paddled in some windy conditions.  I've also paddled with Wally who was closer to 240 back then ( he's more svelte now) and we took turns being bowman with no troubles.  The key is properly placing the packs so the canoe is balanced front to back and side to side.

Quote:

The key is properly placing the packs so the canoe is balanced front to back and side to side.

  ;) Good advice for tandems or solo canoes.
    I can tell at a portage when I encounter other paddlers if their newbies or experienced paddlers by the way they load the canoe in relation to the size of the bow/stern paddlers.
Experienced paddlers will adjust the load/trim, side to side and bow to stern as mentioned.
They also take in account the weight of the paddlers. Many but not all will keep their packs below the gunnel's for maximum stability.
Rookies tend to just throw everything in and take off, with no regard for anything but getting on the water.
I remember watching some good old boys form Kentucky head out from the portage from Beaverhouse to Quetico one spring.
The bow paddler was at least a 300lb guy and had a couple of packs standing on end/side by side that he was using for a makeshift backrest.
The stern guy probably weighed 135 dripping wet. When they pushed off from shore the stern keel line  was out of the water :o
At the time there was whitecaps on Quetico lake and a stiff wind out of the NNE.
Neither was wearing a PFD. I still had mine on and mentioned the wind/water temps but the big guy just ignored me and off they went.
There partners in another tandem were more receptive to my advice. I asked them to put their hands in the frigid water and ask how far/long did they think they'd last if the went over?
A few seconds with their hands in the water and they looked at each other and donned their PFD's. Then I helped them trim out their substantial load and lash it in.
When I pushed them off I could see the first canoe wallowing in the whitecaps trying to get to the West side of Eden Isle for protection.
I'm sure they made it but I'm betting one or both of them needed fresh drawers when they got to camp that night ;D

Kingfisher wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2011 at 11:03am:

I like the MNII over the Champlain almost anytime but especially with a lighter load. Yellowbird and I cursed our Champlain for 10 days on one trip. We both weigh under 175 lbs even with wet boots on and there was just too much bow exposed to the wind on the Champlain.

My perspective began on day one, loaded and traveling.  It was a tracking issue.  The boat just seemed too squirrelly. I was surprized at the effort it took to keep the boat on a straight line, even with minimal wind influence.  KF took the stern on day two.  When asked how he liked the boat, his impression was alike to mine. 

Fishing wise (without travel loads), the Champlain is a stable boat and rides high over the waves.  When trolling deep over the large central lake basins, I felt more comfortable than with a boat having less wind exposure and better tracking.  On these days I prefer the stability, and don't care so much about tracking, since the trolling involves more zig-zagging and/or following the lake bottom contours.

-YB

kypaddler - I have paddled my MN II since 1992. I am 206 lbs and most of my buds that go with me and sit in the bow are 190 -200. A MN II will handle that weight easily and like SoloTripper says ... just spread out your pack loads from bow to stern according to the weight of bow/stern paddlers and it is fine. Paddlers in my group have rented a Champlain from time to time and I have paddled it. Like Yellowbird said, I found it to certainly be more stable than my MN II, especially with heavy loads. However, it doesn't track nearly as well especially on very windy days. It also is quite a bit slower too.

Bottomline, I would go with the MN II.

I tried the Champlain briefly, empty. It seemed to be a flat bottomed boat. The boat slid around when I ruddered it hard in the stern instead of craving a turn. Lots of initial stability, that's not what I really like. I find that's a fault in rough water. The Wenonah catalog does a nice job of explaining how different stability designs (initial/final) roll in waves.

Tripped in an older Minn II for a week. Found it shipped water at the bowman's hip very easy. Otherwise a very nice handling boat. Duh? Jensen design, feels like what I'm familiar with. Talking to Wenonah they say the center free board was raised some years ago. So it's probably a drier ride now.

Jim J.,

Can you elaborate on this?
Quote:

Lots of initial stability, that's not what I really like. I find that's a fault in rough water.

How/why a fault?

(I guess I know the theory, but I'm interested in others' specific thoughts and practical experiences.)

-- kypaddler

kypaddler wrote on Sep 7^th, 2011 at 2:24pm:

Jim J., Can you elaborate on this? Quote: Lots of initial stability, that's not what I really like. I find that's a fault in rough water. How/why a fault? (I guess I know the theory, but I'm interested in others' specific thoughts and practical experiences.) -- kypaddler

If secondary stability is sketchy I would agree.  Get broadsided, cross the initial stability threshold and dumperoo.
To compare, my 15' Wenonah Prospector has a flat-botttom high initial stability and I can heel it to the gunwale being 2" from the water without any worry as long as I keep my head between the gunwales.

The other point, about it skidding not turning sounds related to a light load.  Using different strokes incorporating the correction at the end of a power stroke might work better.  From the sounds of it there may have been more of a pry/draw than a J?  Big boats turn slow.

Reading the Wenonah comments on stability, I'm amused at their round bottom comment.  Yes it's for more advanced paddlers, I had an excellent experience in one.
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like monjon said
I paddled many days in his bow at 240 lbs.  We saw lots of waves on N Bay and occasionaly shipped alittle water.  Boat is very stable, reasonably fast and straight tracking.

Yes Johnny, I'm a svelt 275 now...wonder if your MN II could handle that?  Bet it could!

If I was to buy another tandem today for BW/Q trekking...it'd still be a MN II.
Everybody bragsup the Souris river as well.

This Topic was moved here from General Boundary Waters / Quetico Discussion [move by] db.

kypaddler wrote on Sep 7^th, 2011 at 2:24pm:

Jim J., Can you elaborate on this? Quote: Lots of initial stability, that's not what I really like. I find that's a fault in rough water. How/why a fault? (I guess I know the theory, but I'm interested in others' specific thoughts and practical experiences.) -- kypaddler

I want to comment on this lots of initial stability vs rough water scenario.

After years of paddling a tandem Sawyer Cruiser solo, on my last a three trips, I've borrowed either a Prism or a Magic. All are very different boats in my mind.

The Prism has a flatter bottom (Tons of initial stability, to the point of being boring) and much prefers to go into or with the waves. The Magic absolutely loves to go parallel with waves. And can do it better because, how do I put this, the gunnels stay more level. In (what) 3 footers with bigger breaking swells, I wouldn't want to run parallel to them with the Prism. I don't think my hips have quite the flexibility required where as the Magic doesn't rock half as much from crest to trough and back up again and it seems to enjoy both. With either boat, you can pick your battles and allow them do what they do best but they are very different.

Canoes are tools. A lot of different tools can accomplish the same task of getting us from here to there in wind and waves. Highly refined tools like today's canoes are better at certain things so your path to get from point A to Point B in wind and fetch will very depending on the tool but they will all still get you there eventually. Unless YOU ask the tool to do what it can't.

I hope that makes sense and I REALLY hope a Magic has a rounder bottom than a Prism. I couldn't find cross sections to compare. That's just what they feel like to me. Both will ship a little water over the bow when you hit things wrong but they all bounce right back up.

If I were 240 and sitting in the bow as a wave washed over it, that would certainly put the fear of god into me knowing the stern paddler didn't see it and can't easily hear me attempt to relay that info. I've been piling all the weight I can into the stern more and more my last three trips. That worries me 'cause I can't see the stern paddling down wind in a gusty stiff breeze in any boat.

db wrote on Sep 8^th, 2011 at 5:09pm:

If I were 240 and sitting in the bow as a wave washed over it, that would certainly put the fear of god into me knowing the stern paddler didn't see it and can't easily hear me attempt to relay that info. I've been piling all the weight I can into the stern more and more my last three trips. That worries me 'cause I can't see the stern paddling down wind in a gusty stiff breeze in any boat.

Thus the axiom, Fat Man Bails.   :D

I'm usually the Fat Man and have often been inches deep while my bowman is high & dry.

thanks, all.

we leave tomorrow morning for the gazillion-mile drive to Ely, and then points north.

I'd like to order some mild weather now, plus some Northern Lights, moose, otter, eagles, hot fishing, soothing campfires, comfy sleeping, tremolos, fabulous remoteness et al.

but I'll take it as it comes.

-- kypaddler

Just got back, and for what it's worth, I want to trade in my Champlain for a MNII. Nice ride. To sum up: Just a lot less effort to go far, go fast, go straight.

-- kypaddler

Thanks for the follow-up!  Sounds like the Champ is better suited for river trips.

We took a 20-something-mile day trip one day (i.e. lightly loaded), and on the return we headed into the teeth of the wind.

I'm about 205, my bow paddler was about 155. If we had had the Champlain and its high profile, we would have been blown backward, and my wrists would have eventually broken from all the "steering."

-- kypaddler