Dear paddling buds...sorry I couldn't make a meeting but I was otherwise occupied.  :-)

I'm collecting feedback and would love to hear more about your impressions, feedback, praise and criticism.  We try hard to do a good job and provide value (166 speaker slots this year) for the ticket prices.

Who was amazing?  Who was less than desirable? New product? What's missing?  What else can we do to make things better and better?

We have our debrief in a week or two and want to bring up all the ways to improve we can.  If we have control over it, we'd like to make it work better.

Cheers,

Darren

P.S.  Picked up my new Four Dog Stove from Don Kevilus. That thing will most likely extend my boreal paddling into late October. Now to sew a campfire tent...

Darren,

Overall, the presentations I attended or heard about were "decent" or "good" and of reasonably consistent quality.  This year I only attended four myself ("Rural Wit & Wisdom", "The Stu Osthoff/Rob Kesselring Show",  "Survival Sense" & Deb Kraiker's presentation on preparing meal plans for wilderness tripping).  Deb Kraiker's presentation was - by far - the best of THAT lot.  By the way, I hope your Rutabaga observers took note of presentations where room size didn't nearly match the flood of interested folks.  Deb Kraiker's presentation was a good example of where the room was NO match.  What an overflow mob!

Where I think you might improve some would be in the accuracy & detail level of the promotional piece relative to each show.  For instance, I guessed very wrong on the Jerry Apps "Wit & Wisdom" presentation based upon the content available in the promotional material.  Nice guy, decent presentation for the right crowd but Jerry was serving pablum when what I was looking for was steak.  Many of us here are looking for more advanced canoe-tripping related stuff specifically related to Quetico, the BWCA, Woodland Caribou, Wabakimi, etc..  I've heard several comments from QJer's about how they walked away from a presentation or two feeling like they were served very "intro" type material versus what they were hoping for.  In short, you might do well to consider offering more advanced trip-oriented programs for heavily-experienced Copia visitors.  Personally, IF I attend Copia next year, it is NOT likely to be "programming" that brings me back (unless I see more of what I've mentioned above).  Nor is it likely to be the "opportunity to purchase gear" that brings me back... despite my severe "buying" addiction (even I have limits!).  I'm not seeing the stuff I'm really looking for.  I've driven from the Twin Cities for 7-8 straight years, I'm stocked up on all the fundamental equipment, and I'm looking more for high-tech niche items (example: didn't see any hammock tents, GPS equipment, SPOT Messengers, etc.; maybe I didn't look hard enough).

That's not to say I won't attend Copia & make a day of it (though I'm not likely to buy all-weekend passes as in the past).  Your great event has become mainly a marvelous social opportunity for many of us here.  The folks on the other Canoe Country discussion boards probably feel much the same way.  I submit, however, that you may be missing opportunities to market niche stuff that well-seasoned crowds may be seeking.  Also, there are presentation-types that I've not seen much of at Copia.  I suspect if you were to ask members of these boards what shows & products they would like to see (six months in advance), the lists of presenters & sponsors would differ considerably from yours.   Perhaps you are limited in this respect by vendors currently supplying Rutabaga?  I simply don't know....

Please understand I do not mean to tell you WHO your market should be.  You know where you make money (&, as my wife would tell you, you have certainly earned a LOT of mine!) better than I do.  I simply believe you are missing opportunities.  I also suspect that many of the more experienced folks (such as those who frequent these boards) may be finding less of what they are looking for IN the Alliant Center and more of it over at the local restaurants where they meet up with their discussion board pals.

You continue to run a great show with CanoeCopia (as evidenced by the crowds).  However, for me the show itself was "greater" years ago than it is for me now.  I'm sure it is just fine for a lot of the folks you sell to.  Nevertheless, to be a truly great show for folks like me again will require significant change to both programming & gear offerings.

Thanks for your contributions to our QJ luncheon "door prizes" and, in general, to this forum.   Your event has brought a lot of us together and, for that, we will always be thankful.

That's how I see it, anyway.  Thanks for asking.

Jimbo   8-)

Bought a pair of Keen sandals there last year. The reciept I was given wasn't usable for a return when they fell apart. I don't buy stuff from you anymore. All I got was adding machine tape. I find it better to buy local.

The Jerry Vandiver Show was outstanding! I'd come back just for that.

Jimbo has done a good job in his analysis and I will second what he has said. In looking for more advanced programming I went to hear Rob Kesselring talk about planning a far north canoe trip. Unfortunately he decided to change things up this year and just tell stories. The opposite of that was the Hudson Bay bound girls. The computer quit but they were given another which made a jumble of their pictures. They still managed to give a great program about an advanced trip.

We use canoes and have this feeling, whether true or not, that the kayaks are getting too much of the show. I checked in with Bending Branches to look at the new double blade paddle  they are making for canoe use. I was told it exist but they had none at the show. It reinforced the feeling that kayaks were pushing us aside. On the positive side I was able to have a good talk with the new owners of Lendal Paddles. So many solo canoe paddlers approached them during the show that they are going to look into what they can do for us along the line of a long high quality double blade.

Thanks for asking our views on a great event.   

Darren -- I just want to add an explanation point to what Marten and Jimbo wrote about kayakopia (sorry, couldn't help myself).

I didn't go this year for a number of reasons.  But the 2011 copia was a disappointment to me in that the  focus seemed to have shifted to kayaks.  Like Jimbo said, you know where you make your money, and I don't begrudge you that.  It's just that the show isn't meeting my needs.  I do plan to attend Midwest Mountaineering's Spring Expo: 1. it's free, 2. the staff is heavily involved and the focus seems to be more on the kind of serious, far north kind of canoeing that I enjoy. 

Best of luck, and thanks for asking for feedback.

prouboy

Good place for me to add my 2 cents.

I'm a canoer, or should I say paddler. My girl friend and I are planning on kayaking Lake Superior this summer, so I hit a lot of kayaking stuff this year. Thanks for offering a broad range of speakers. A lot of info was new to me and I needed to get up to speed. Martha liked the show too, both the speakers and the shopping. She needed cold weather paddling gear and I told her to wait for the show.
By the way sea kayaking on an in-land sea isn't the tame stuff most canoers think of when they think of sea kayaking.
I really liked Body-Boat-Blade's presentations, Leon Somme & Shawna Franklin. I caught their T-rescue and tow talks.

Nigel Dennis was great too.

I didn't like the guys who did "Kayak Camping for Canoers". Some of the stuff they presented was unknowingly directly countered by Leon & Shawna.

I will second Jimbo, Marten, and Prouboy in their observations. Midwest Mountaineering is free, and I wish Copia was free also. No one pays to enter a store to shop, yet that is what happens at Copia. About the only draw for me is to visit with old friends and make a few new ones.

And thanks for the nice door prizes.

Yes, first and foremost, thank you for the door prizes!

I only have one small complaint about them...I didn't win one.  So that's my first suggested improvement.  Make me a winner!  :P

I'd agree with the opinions expressed about featuring speakers covering more advanced topics.  I'd definitely go to more seminars if I could find some that didn't cover primarily basic, readily available information.

Ideas: 
Remote and lesser-known picto sites in Quetico
Planning expeditions
Canoeing Major Canadian Rivers (in or out of PP's)
Anything by Marten Kehoe
Ultralight canoe-camping

...and I could keep going

I would also suggest having your speakers rate their presentations as basic, intermediate, or advanced.  It would also be nice if the blurbs about the presentations were less about the presenters themselves and more of a summary of what, specifically, they plan to cover in their presentation.

Finally, I get why you have to charge admission for the event.  The Alliant Center isn't exactly hosting you for free, I'm sure.  I do appreciate the discounts that many of your vendors offer for the show and I find that this more than covers the price of admission if I spend $100 or so...and with my kids getting the canoeing bug, that's likely not going to stop anytime soon.

But as others have said, the main draw for me is the QJ gatherings.  If those came to a halt it's highly unlikely that I'd make the trip from the Twin Cites as the gas/motel expense more than eats up any savings the vendors offer on gear.

Hope you find this thread helpful and I do appreciate your request for feedback!

Oh yeah, can we make all the kayakers wear some sort of a scarlet "K" on their shirts so we don't inadvertently talk to one of them? 

Plus, I don't want to get any kayak cooties, so can you please segregate the kayaking vendors off to one side of the building so they're easier to avoid?

I thought I should add that I've only been to Canoecopia once before, so it's all not as old for me. That said I wouldn't go every year, and it's as much fun seeing friends as anything, even if I get teased about my regressive paddling interests  ;D  8-)

My canoe kit's pretty complete. If it wasn't for the need to pick up cold water kayaking gear (wetter ride than canoeing) I probably wouldn't have bought much. It is a big plus to talk to the vendors directly and not just some trained sales staff that's trying to cover a lot of different areas. Being able to try on gear right then is worth a lot too. Friday is by far the best shopping day, forget Sat or Sun.

Perhaps my trip is a bit different than most.  I FLY there rather than drive ... its a bit of a hike from Texas just for the weekend.  Thus, for me, the ticket cost to get it is pretty much a comparative joke.

A couple of things I have mentally noted about buying things at the show:

First ... getting any large purchase home.  Since I'm flying, anything large has to be checked as luggage, which can pretty much offset any price advantage at the show.  Then there is always the issue of getting the item damaged if checked ... the two paddles I bought this year make it home in one piece, but I'm not sure I'd risk that again. 

So, is there a shipping option that I failed to take advantage of at the show, or is it "cash and carry" as assumed?

Second, I often come with a shopping list of items other people in my area would like me to look at while I'm at the show.  Sometimes, after some back-and-forth on the cell phone on the vendor floor, one of my friends decides they just have to have an XYZ.  Right now, I'm fronting the purchase because there is apparently no other option (call-in with credit card, PayPal, etc.).  While this is not an issue for me (but could be for some in similar circumstances), it does tend to complicate issues related to return. 

Please consider alternate payment options for "off-site" customers.

Now to the speakers and topics.  I did notice that this year's slate was not overly tipped toward kayaking (but I did feel that way last year).  But, I'd have to echo what has already been said ... most of the content seemed to be aimed a those just starting out (but then again, those are the folks that are in need of more gear and guidance).

Finally, do you have any interest in having speakers and topics that are not from your "normal" cadre?  There are several on this board that I think could do a fantastic job on a variety of topics and be both entertaining and informative.  I must admit, I'm starting to get the itch to be in front of a audience again.

dd

I'd definitely attend a Denton_doc presentation.

So far no one has mentioned something Rutabaga tried for the first time this year - workshops put on by canoeing and kayak instructors.

I would appreciate it if anyone who saw one of my workshops - knot-tying and canoe stroke technique - would provide feedback on what could be improved next time.  Please e-mail me at koda@codabone.net.

Thanks!

THANK YOU!

Awesome feedback, thank you.  I can address a few of your concerns, I hope...

Re: Kayakcopia...

Yeah.  20 years ago we had 3 canoes for every kayak.  Now it's about the opposite.  :(  There's not much I can do about it except for continue to impress upon people that a solo canoe is a much better craft for many applications for which they use a recreational canoe -- lighter, easier to load and unload, easier to get in and out, etc.  No argument from me.

As Ralph Sawyer once told me, "Even when the market's wrong, it's right."  I can shake my fist at the canoeing gods as cry out "Why?: but it won't do much good.

P.S. Replace station wagon with canoe and minivan with kayak.  Works the same.

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Workshops:  Very popular.  I'm a hands-on guy, and so are a lot of people.  Suggestions for other workshops are MOST welcome.  People who want to share their knowledge are also MOST welcome.

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DentonDoc: we do have a shipping option, and the vendors were remiss in not mentioning it. Depending on the amount of the purchase, the shipping is often offset by that fact that we don't collect sales tax for shipping out of state.  Alternative payments would be relatively easy for the few who use it (call us and run it exactly as if it were a phone order to the shop).  FYI, your entire feedback string has been forwarded to the Canoecopia team.

And yes, we welcome new speaking blood.  TOTALLY.

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Re: Scarlett K:  Don't hate, man. Convert them instead. :-)

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Snow Dog: send me an email and I'll put you down for 2013 contacts for speakers.  GREAT topics to add!  I also like a beginner-friendly icon (we did that with kid-friendly and Ontario outfitters).  All good!  Thank you.

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Old Salt (et al.) Re: costs...Yeah, I hear you. The cost of the Alliant Energy Center is six figures (easily).  It's the only venue that can handle us within 100 miles.  It goes up 4% a year no matter what.  We don't get a think from parking revenues -- that's straight to the county.  In fact, we get 50 free weekend passes then we have to pay $15.00 each for weekend passes, and buy about 150 for the irregulars.

My justification:  I went to see Hugo with my wife.  It was $9.00.  At some of the Canadian events the ticket to see just him is $10.00.  I think it's a good value, still.

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Speakers Changing Topics: Excuse me, but that really pissed me off. That's like going Cowboys and Aliens and finding a chick flick instead.  I hope you filled out feedback cards! We definitely do not invite people back who don't do what they promise to do.

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As far as gear shifting toward kayaks -- see above.  Strange that BB didn't have those as we ordered them on our preseason order last September.  I think Lendal is a great answer, but I can see if Aquabound can make me a five piece paddle that's long enough for solo canoeing.

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Ncnty_Ben:  That's not normal...and we take returns without receipts if your sale is in our system.  I apologize...did you bring that to the attention of anyone?  They should have fixed it immediately.  And shopping local is fine with me.  :-)

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Gear Selection:  I'm sending out an electronic survey as soon as I get the names sorted so I don't email duplicates.  I assume you all have a computer.  8-)  Gear selection is a big one on there.

I want more of the stuff you mentioned, Jimbo, but quite a few of the more techy companies pulled out a few weeks ago...GoPro, SeaLife Cameras, Goal Zero solar (VERY cool product for digital photographers), etc.

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CROWDED SPEAKER ROOMS:  Arrgh!  Busted by the fire marshall!  I concede we've grown out of several of the rooms, but it was almost always on Saturday.  BUT I have a plan...there are other buildings on the Alliant Center campus...where we could have 650-700 people.  Not optimal but we could make it work and it would allow more space for workshops were we can get dirty (work on a stitch and glue boat, make piles of cedar shavings, light camp stoves for cooking workshops, etc.).  I'll keep you posted...it might be tied up in contract but if not...shhhhh.

POOL:  Lordy, I would LOVE a pool...if I can find a place for it.  But that's 2016 stuff.

Again, THANK YOU.  The expertise here is great and I'm already lurking.  The more I keep my mouth shut the more I learn.

Good paddling!

Darren

Darren,
This is my third trip to Copia from Nebraska.  About a 7.5 hr drive.  My favorite part is it is a gathering place to meet up with "canoe fanatics" I have met along the trail and on sites like this and BWCA.com, Solotripping.com, etc.
I really enjoy the merchandise part of the show, because it gives us a chance to "touch and feel" the latest and greatest.  My favorite part after seeing my friends, is the speakers.  That is the part I really dig.
I truly enjoyed the Pagami Fire Presentation as I learned a lot about fire in the Boreal forest.  I also think that much talked about is a little basic for the "seasoned crowd".
I do also Enjoy Martin and his talks and passion.
Also would like more on something around first time soloing, and maybe the latest in technology for those first timers to "communicate" with their wife/spouse.  Like utilizing Sat phones, spots, plb's, etc.
I won't quit coming as I enjoy the "fun" with friends, but have a lot of the same sentiment as the above posters.
One other thing, your HELP was really polite and courteous!
SunCatcher

I learned of Canoecopia from discussion on the QJ site a little over a year ago.  This March was my second visit to the 'Copia.  I enjoyed it immensely.  Mainly agree with other "reviews", here, although I had fun even at some basic talks (e.g., Fishin tips for BWCA).  Never know where or who provides new info...
     Agree that "Planning an Arctic Expedition" may have been off topic, though speaker was trying to make a special point about the uniqueness of that country...  I didn't garner a lot of technical know-how, this time around, but much enjoyed Jacobson/Callan copresenting, the Aluminum Chef cook-off, and the Reel Film Festival all for entertainment value!
     Like others have noted, a primary value of 'Copia is the friendships that get made and revisited, and the learning of new places...  Because of 'Copia in 2011, I ended up doing a couple of weeks with the Wabakimi Project, and -- because of that -- this year I ended up staying near Madison with some friends I met on the Project.
     I attended the Atrium workshop on forward stroke.  Seems like I should know that, by now, but I picked up some good pointers for checking myself to improve my technique.  Half-blade paddles would be better for dry-practicing in that workshop, but I don't know where you could get them... Alternately, you could try that one at poolside?
     Thanks again to Darren and Rutabaga.

canoelover wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 4:08pm:

The more I keep my mouth shut the more I learn. Good paddling! Darren

Ummmm, just out of curiosity, DB, what do you think you'd have learned if you didn't ask for opinions? Seems to me you did pretty darn well - FWIW.  :D

I gotta ask. How'd the day after paddle go? Just curious is all.

DB, I can ask for feedback...but I don't offer it much.   :D  I think that a panel of a few of you could do a GREAT presentation on your first solo trips, what you did, what you learned, and the joys and relative risks of being "alone."  I know I feel a lot more refreshed after a solo trip than a group paddle.

The day after paddle was fantastic.  Broke in (figuratively) my new-to-me wood/canvas boat. Gorgeous weather.  One swim (my son, who got spun around by a submerged log into another submerged log).

Thanks again...the cogs in my brain are turning.

Snow_Dog wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 11:37pm:

I'd definitely attend a Denton_doc presentation.

Me too... Like making our own maps for one.

nctry_Ben wrote on Mar 21^st, 2012 at 2:31am:

Snow_Dog wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 11:37pm: I'd definitely attend a Denton_doc presentation. Me too... Like making our own maps for one.

Thanks for the "vote of confidence" guys.  I was giving some consideration to that topic (for this year).  Alas, next year I won't be coming to 'copia unless current plans get changed.

dd