In another thread discussing the SPOT messenger service Prouboy raises the point that using sat phones and SPOT devices removes some of the adventure from a wilderness canoe trip. I have been discussing this with my wife as I plan some crazy wild ass adventures in the parks and she has pointed out that while she has no real issue if I want to die or lay suffering in the woods, what she has a problem with is everyone who is left behind with unanswered questions and the responsibility of finding a body should I fail to return. The technology has improved to the point that price and availability no longer are reasons to go on an adventure without some form of "help" signaling device. So, are we being overly selfish when we want to maintain some of the risk in a wilderness canoe trip? Further, should the parks maybe start requiring the use of phones or SPOTs?

Selfish? Aren't we all? We deserve it damn it.  8-)

I'm all for minimizing risk while doing what you wanna do and to me personally, price point is a hurdle I have no desire to broach knowing that something would be a gadget I'd not want to use anyway ... but then, I don't share your wanderlust at this point in my life. So, if my wife asked forcefully? I'd give her a hug and say I love you too dear.

Until then, a detailed itinerary works well for us but my kid is younger so I feel an obligation to not be quite as adventurous ... risk, as in no return is no longer an option I'm willing to accept - for a few more years anyway. ;)

"Crazy and wildass" seem to be the key triggers here. I still resent being burdened with the "tracking device" that is my cell phone. These comunication devices have profoundly added and subtracted diminsions to human life in the 21st century the way electricity and the internal combustion engine did at the begining of the 20th. Women and children seem to have imidiately embraced these encombrances that let them feel never alone,able to instantly transport themselves to the company of someone and someplace other ..." it "has shrunk the world irrevocably. The escape from this mutation of "the real world" is one the reasons I flee to the wilderness where I can "be here now".   ...that said,I have thought that I would like to give my family the comfort of letting them know where I'm at when I'm on a solo. Wonder if I could get a SPOT stapled to my ear? I imaigine that's being worked out right now.            ...   "My heros have always been cowboys... ,and I guess that they still are today."  W.Nelson

my wife will just move on.  lack of a body means it will take longer to get her mitts on the cash

I think the problem with many of these issues is the one answer fits all, which sometimes becomes a my way or the highway approach.  Probably the thing I love most about  tripping in Quetico is not being tethered to my Blackberry, as I have to the rest of the year to pay for these too few weeks.  So I reject the idea of a sat phone entirely, but my wife does want to know where I am and that I'm OK - I'm sure safer than she is in Chicago suburbs - so a Spot (forgive me) hits the spot.  Taking it out of my pack wehn I make camp, pushihg a few buttons and letting it sit for 30 minutes or so, is not too intrusive.  If it was not for my wife, I might consider a PLB instead, but I don't really feel I'm at that great of risk so probably would carry nothing.

But whatever suits and fits you is great.

Maybe I'm a pragmatist........I used to think I was basically indestructible in the woods. Many months hoofin big loads off trail......lots of nights crawlin through swamps tryin to keep up with my dog. Nobody ever knew where I was at and I never gave it a second thought.

Having experienced something going wrong and being basically incapacitated was a wake up call. And that was not even life threatening just rather supremely frustrating that I was going to have to sit there for many, many days........no thanks, I'm busy, time to move on.

Yup, I will always have SAT and probably a SPOT with me from now on. Peace of mind to know I can get on with life should something happen to me or my boat. Call for a floatplane or rescue........Certainly small enough, light enough. Might even save someones life. Besides, if your gone for more than a few weeks it might be nice to hear the voices of those you care for and vica-versa.

"So, are we being overly selfish when we want to maintain some of the risk in a wilderness canoe trip?"

selfish ?  maybe, but anything we want for ourselves is being selfish, so who cares.  My view, if you are electronically tethered to civilization, you ain't in the wilderness buddy.  Its either/or, not both  - if you can't hack being in "the wilderness", then don't go. Haul your security blaket with you and eliminate teh wilderness from your canoe trips - whichever 

Further, should the parks maybe start requiring the use of phones or SPOTs?

Absolutely not!  Maybe "they" should implant gps tracking chips is everybody - lots of good reasons to do that - makes catching criminals easy,  you can find out where you are if lost, etc.  Hell, lets bolt GoPro camers to everybody's forehead while were at it, so you can't lie about stopping at that stop sign when you caused a car crash.   Lots of this is almost already here, what with all the tracking they already do with cell pbones, and secrurity cameras and intersection camers all over the place.  Homeland security can look at your computer anytime thye want to to see what nonsense your up to - Big Brother IS WATCHING

Canoe adventurists are an independent lot.......I encourage that. I am reminded of an event in a recent book I read where Verlen kruger and his dear friend Jerry set out to canoe the White River in Ontario. The first day they came to a falls.......Verlen hit the portage while Jerry was swept past. He managed to grab onto a limb but the current took his boat. Verlen and Jerrys eyes locked......the implications being realized. Jerry went to retrieve his boat and was never seen again. I pondered that for some time. Was "peer" pressure partly responsible for Jerry's actions? Quite probable. It cost him his life.

There are many here on QJ I admire a great deal. The originator of this thread has achieved a mythic canoe hero status for me. But I have decided that I will choose what is best for myself and I think you should to. There is some notion that being able to have contact with the outside world is somehow impinging on the wilderness experience. Reality, however, has a way of inserting itself on our most deeply held beliefs and I believe this is one such scenario.

If you are with a group I can understand not having any device especially if the group is fairly young and fit. As the party ages I think the risk that someone might need medical attention rises significantly. Just read BWJ where there are numerous such stories. If someone in your party goes down with any number of serious injuries the concept of calling in help instead of attending a funeral becomes very attractive.

On the other hand my idea is you stow the device and basically forget it. If you call mommy every night, yea, that might sort of ruin your time as you get to hear about the bills and how Mary and Bobby are fighting. My biggest problem with the SAT is going to be explaining to my wife I'm not going to be calling her all the time.

But lets move on.........solo is a different animal. I like being in control. Captain of my own ship (lest I get pegged unfairly my philosophy on group trips is "do what you want"). When i went down in WCPP I would not of been in control of my destiny had I not had the SPOT. I would of been at the mercy of others. I would of had to wait on that sandbar for who knows how long and then I would of had to ask passerby's for help. And not only help to get to the EP but also a ride to town. A massive sacrifice for someone to have to do. I might of ruined some one else's trip.  That is unacceptable IMO and thus my desire to remain independent and in control. Anyway.......decide for yourself. I have spent more time in the woods than the average bear and the thought that it would detract from my experience has never crossed my mind.

Long winded I know. I had plenty of time to think as I was biking (I'm going to write a book......."How to become a wimp in 6 months")

Logic & Reason

Anything we do purely for our own enjoyment is inherently selfish.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Our loved ones do deserve some reasonable degree of security, we do love them after all!

I disagree that bringing SPOT/PLB/SatPhone reasonably cheapens the experience any more than kevlar, ripstop nylon, and modern shoes do.  They're all just tools.  If you choose not to use them, that's your right.

Non-trippers have strange ideas about the risks.  The first step is to educate them.  Your phobia is not my problem.  You have a great chance of being killed by going to the office than I do by paddling to the next campsite.  If you actually love your family and friends you'll be happy to take reasonable steps to reduce their reasonable anxiety.

I think anyone who feels these emergency exit tools cheapen the experience have yet to have a true emergency experience.

Money comes into it.  I can't afford these tools.  Fortunately my loved ones have reasonable worries.  If/when I get to do several weeks in a very remote area with no reasonable chance of seeing anyone else I would rent a SatPhone.

Here's one very sad example.  His family still has hope.  Missing since November.  I hope he found what he was looking for.
  (You need to Login or Register


My float plans are emailed out with the subject, "Where to drag for my body."   :D

I can tell by most of the responses that a big part of my concern is no being addressed so I'll explain further. My wife has been tripping out of a canoe longer than I, some 40 years. She introduced me to canoe country in 1977. She absolutely knows what it's all about. She does not really have anxiety about my safety although that is surely part of it. She is concerned about the practical aspect of a lost or missing person. A situation that can be almost entirely avoided by using the tools that are available today.
Think about it you preserve your sense of adventure and gone off alone into the wilderness with no means to reach anyone. You become lost, injured or dead. Now you have unfairly burdened your loved ones with the avoidable anxiety of a search and rescue. When do you call it off - who decides? When do you give up hope? You have possibly deprived the people you love the most with the answers they desire for proper closure.

All of the most serious adventures (Everest climbers radio relays, around the world sailors, spelunkers etc.)taking place today use ALL of the tools available to them to ensure a rescue if things go badly. Are those not adventures then?

In a group, I can see bringing and pushing a button at some point. Who is going to push it on a solo once all reason and hope is lost? That's my deal.

Quote:

are we being overly selfish when we want to maintain some of the risk in a wilderness canoe trip?

There size of the group and condition of the group makes a big difference in the answer to this. I do not think it OVERLY selfish if a group of six (in 3 canoes) takes no such device.  Thta size group has plenty of "redundancy" for dealing with issues.

A solo is a much different situation.  For a solo person not to have a mechanism of getting help is way more risky than anything I am willing to deal with.  So my first thought is risky, not selfish.  As to whether or not it is selfish, that also depends on what responsibilities one has to others.

What would Shackleton do?   8-)

I always rent a sat phone, my wife says that if anything should happen to me she would not be able to canoe out solo and we try to get to areas where we don't see many other people.  It's basically peace of mind, precautionary.

PhantomJug wrote on Mar 16^th, 2012 at 9:16pm:

What would Shackleton do?   8-)

Why, by George, he would make sure everyone got home in one piece (even if it took a few years ;D ).

Hey KF, et al - All good points.  What I have learned from this discussion is that these devices need not be intrusive.  Set 'em up, beam up, turn 'em off.  Done.  I can do that. 

I can also get over the notion that "reducing risk detracts from wilderness experience."  In reality, this idea is pretty much a figment of my imagination anyway. 

But I do find the squawk of electronics (think weather radio) annoying!  We covered this on another discussion thread: but quiet, peace, solitude, and serenity is a bit part of what I treasure about canoe country.  As someone wrote on this thread, I like to get away from cell phones and all the other ubiquitous gadgetry that seems to define our modern lives.  I don't think that's selfish.  And if I can send a signal that might give loved ones some of comfort knowing where to search for my bloated corpse, or just knowing I are "in touch," without the hum, whir, whiz, squawk, static...that seems like an easy and very reasonable tradeoff.  Clearly, I've got to get off my neanderthal ass and learn a bit more about these devices. 

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments.

prouboy

Yikes! 

Sorry for the glaring grammar in that post.  Obviously, I can't do this while drinking a Gin and Tonic. 

prouboy

So did you intend to lay a guilt trip on me.
Westwood

Selfish? No.
Maybe Require?  Hope not.

I quess I don't equate canoeing, even solo, in Quetico or BWCAW to the "most serious adventures (Everest climbers radio relays, around the world sailors, spelunkers etc.)".

Canoeing risk is quite different.  I currently use a SPOT1.   It's a personal choice.  My wife/kids don't really care one way of the other.  If I were heading into grizzly territory, the Amazon, across the ocean, that's quite different...

A SPOT device on which you just push the "okay" button every so often I do not see as having a big effect on the quality of "alone in the wilderness" experience.  I use one and find everyone at home really likes being able to see where I am and my progress, etc.
I would not however want to carry a sat-phone or any other device I could talk to the outside world on; or worse the outside world might use to contact me.  That I would feel is cheating on the wilderness experience.

I did carry a sat phone on one of my first solo trips.  I guess it proved useful because I was informed of a family emergency during my trip.  Unfortunate, being 3 days from my exit point and 2 days driving home meant that I couldn't respond to the emergency personally, but was able to "contribute" otherwise. 

Despite this 1 in 1000 chance of really needing a sat phone, I decided thereafter not to take it, but rather a SPOT instead.  Since much of my travel involves paddling solo (sometimes with other paddlers, sometimes all alone; sometimes in familiar waters, sometimes virgin waters for me), there is a good chance I'll have to effect a self-rescue if it should ever come to that.  There is a descent chance, even when traveling with others, I could be alone (and 2-way radios I've found to be a waste of weight to carry). 

But all that aside, my wife and family care about my well being and especially my dear wife does worry when I'm in the bush (whether plying northern waters or on a mountain top some where).  So, the most significant reason I take a SPOT is for their piece of mind. 

My routine is much like some of those already expressed.  When dinner time rolls around, I'll take the SPOT to the edge of the campsite and engage the "OK" button, check to make sure that the unit has engaged satellites (usually takes 3 for a lat/long reference), and walk away.  I return after dinner is completed to retrieve the unit and pack it away for the next day.

What is not so nice is on that cold, windy, rainy night when you are already tucked warmly into your tent only to remember that you forgot to sent the nightly signal.  NOW, THAT SUCKS!

dd

Can't seem to bring myself to buy one (even at the current cheap price that DentonDoc cited the other day).

If Mrs. Jimbo (or anyone else) gets worried enough & wants to buy one for me to address HER (their) concern, I suppose I'll carry it.

Jimbo   8-)

For Petes sake......lets take up a collection. Just get one......they are certainly cheap enough right now. I think I payed almost double that price. Besides you will find more uses for it than you might imagine. I'm taking mine into the backcountrys behind tuesday to try and catch a few wee little fishes. You might be vacationing in Italy and get abducted by international jewel thieves........little did they know that under your hat......taped to your scalp........ was an emergency beacon!

While we are on the subject I suggest you wear your SPOT on your person always. It is small and light and has a holder that slips right on your belt. and like a PFD if you don't have it on you it might not do you any good. Boats gone.......bag where you stored it got carried off........whatever.

mastertangler wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 3:07pm:

You might be vacationing in Italy and get abducted by international jewel thieves........little did they know that under your hat......taped to your scalp........ was an emergency beacon!

Well, I WAS actually thinking more in terms of an Italian CRUISE ship.

dd

DentonDoc wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 3:27pm:

mastertangler wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:07pm: You might be vacationing in Italy and get abducted by international jewel thieves........little did they know that under your hat......taped to your scalp........ was an emergency beacon! Well, I WAS actually thinking more in terms of an Italian CRUISE ship. dd

Hey dd
Need a valet? You know, a man in waiting who could take care of your clothes and personal appearance. Are you bald? Can we tape the SPOT to the top of your noogin. What is your selection of hats? Do you have a cane? Do you smoke cigars? Are you prone to verbal abuse? Do you drink before 10 A.M.? These are questions I would need answered before I take the position.

Send pic of my accommodations.

Faithfully yours, in service to King and country
MT

Yes, Jimbo, you should JUST GET a Spot.  I pay for the tracking feature in my yearly fees.  Then I can use it to follow my exact bushwack route on Google maps, where my campsites were, etc. and print it out when I get home to add to my journal.  I sometimes will use it to determine how long it took me to cover a certain distance...the posts back home to the computer also register the time of day and date.  Since I do not carry a watch it is sometimes interesting to see how early or late I got out of camp or made camp each day.  You  could use it to mark where you saw that moose, or bear, or even the location of your best lucky fishing holes.  :D

intrepid_camper wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 9:16pm:

Yes, Jimbo, you should JUST GET a Spot.  :D

You know, with all that pink crap that I carry, my rescuers shouldn't have all that hard a time finding me AFTER I am overdue but BEFORE my plentiful fat cells run out.

With all the stuff (pink & otherwise) I already haul around, the SPOT might just be that last straw that breaks THIS camel's (sciatic-riddled) back.

Maybe if I could find a SPOT in pink....

Jimbo   8-)

What happens if your SPOT gets broken?  You can no longer send the I'm ok message, so the people at home assume something went wrong.   If you carry the SPOT on your person and you fall in the water or it gets wet during an all day soaker and it doesn't work, the folks back home get worried.  So maybe the broken SPOT causes a big ruckus inspite of your best intentions.
Westwood

Well you certainly have a point Westwood. It could also run out of juice as well. I suppose one would need to make it clear what is expected should that situation arise. On the plus side they would at least have your last location.

The Spot is supposed to be waterproof to 3 meters. Interesting now that I think about it.........I never checked mine out after my 10 minute dunking in Lake Superior where it stayed submerged. I'll check it out and see if I have corroded batteries and report back (of course I will  :D )

Along with a disabled spot actually causing the problems that it was supposed to prevent we have various studies that show that the more safety devices one employs the more risky his behavior becomes. A recent bike helmut study comes to mind but I'm too lazy to look it up. Does anyone suppose that just because we have a SPOT or SAT phone that we might do something we ordinarily would not. Personally, I have backed off of a few bushwhacks when solo simply because I had no means of initiating a rescue if I became lost or hurt.
There is anecdotal evidence from rescue personnal that outdoor people are generally engaging in more risky behavior because of the spread of rescue communication devices.

This seems hugely subjective. Personally, I felt extremely awkward having put a 4 million dollar aircraft and 3 lives at risk to come bail me out because I didn't want to sit on a sandbar for who knows how long (and even then I wasn't sure if anyone would be willing to carry my stuff out).

The SAR guys assured me they rather enjoyed the practice. I was very impressed with these fellows.

I wouldn't do anything I wouldn't ordinarily do is the bottom line for me. The thought never even occurred to me that I would need SPOT for anything other than sending "I'm OK" messages. Now I want to be able to call a floatplane if need be instead of SAR. 

Kingfisher wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 2:37pm:

There is anecdotal evidence from rescue personnal that outdoor people are generally engaging in more risky behavior because of the spread of rescue communication devices.

From my former career in the US Forest Service, I learned that while behavior may not be made riskier with this technology, (I have no data on this), there is an increased EXPECTATION that if you're hurt, you can get on your sat phone and request a plane or chopter to get you out of the BWCA.  This expectation borders on the insane: a sprained ankle, a severe sunburn, poison ivy, a broken finger, etc, have all been reasons cited for requesting to be airlifted!  The Forest Service has had to work hard to lower this expectation caused by increased communication technology.  They try to point out the BWCA is a wilderness, and they won't airlift except for extreme emergencies.  Despite their efforts, I see this trend only increasing. 

prouboy

MT- How much did an evacuation from Woodland Caribou cost?  I take a lot solos, and due to the time of year (only seen 1 canoe in seven years) probably should carry either a spot or a cyanide tablet, but not certain I could afford to press the button.

quote from MT
The thought never even occurred to me that I would need SPOT for anything other than sending "I'm OK" messages. Now I want to be able to call a floatplane if need be instead of SAR.  [/quote]

IMO we need to really grasp what MT has learned. Think too about our loved ones back home. The agony they will go through until SAR can give them a status report on why we called them in.

I carry the Sat phone so I am better able to handle my own problems. I have said many times that with a GPS and a Sat  phone they will at least know where to look for my body. In a worst case scenario it would make everyone's life easier.

Solus wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 1:36pm:

MT- How much did an evacuation from Woodland Caribou cost?  I take a lot solos, and due to the time of year (only seen 1 canoe in seven years) probably should carry either a spot or a cyanide tablet, but not certain I could afford to press the button.

Solus.......Ontario provides SAR free of charge. SPOT service however, has rescue insurance for $12 a year. I thought about that for 2 seconds and said "yea, I'll take that"........

Prouboys thoughts are well taken as well.......I have heard of people asking for evac because they were afraid of bears. As this technology becomes more common I can see unwarranted usage going up. It can easily be argued that my evac was essentially unwarranted as it was not life threatening just extremely inconvenient. I was between a rock and a hard place but sooner or later someone would of helped.

It did cost me $600 to rent a floatplane to go back and get my boat though. Lets see........2 day drive there........8 hours of paddling........one long night on the beach........one helicopter ride.......one floatplane ride (both rides on the same day weeeeeee!)........and 2 day drive home.  :P

My take on this is basically the same as it is on wearing PFD's.

I think that if your married, have children or anyone else that depend on you for financial or emotional support, then you have an obligation to do all you can to stay safe and lessen their worry.

Others like myself don't have this blessing/burden and in practical terms no-one is going to suffer financially or long term emotionally if I don't make it back. My family/friends know I like the outdoor thing and would miss me but understand I accept the risk.

I don't have a death wish or relish the idea of dying a gruesome death if stranded and can't get out on my own. But the idea of everyone having Spots/Sats and inevitably Cell Phone capabilities bothers me as that will eventually lead to what it has in day to day life, non stop texting/talking in public with the complete disregard for anyone else that maybe in earshot. Once the floodgates are opened by any kind of mandatory ruling, abuses will surely follow. Are we ready to except that?

Another good point is that some people will abuse the system like prouboy mentioned becasue they'll overreach their abilities figuring they can get rescued anytime they want.

Do we really want our First Responders additionally burdened with call from wilderness travelers that have decided the want out NOW just becasue they can get a call out and expect the authorities to respond?

Mandating devices seems a bit of a stretch, but it's probably coming. Somebody will end up mandating canoe mfgs put chips in their products for "liability" issues and the decision will be out of our hands.

Wally has it about right. His wife will move on, although she might have to sell some of his stuff until the insurance check clears. I'm sure the contents of his "jelly cabinet" would fetch a tidy sum, and the Evil Black Rifle too. ;D

I don't see worrying about the equipment breaking as a reasonable worry.  The only message that should cause worry is the panic-button message.

Those who worry about us know that one of the big reasons we go is to get off the grid & be incommunicado.  If someone is so worrisome that missing these check-in calls will cause them to lose sleep they deserve a partner who doesn't engage in wilderness tripping, and we deserve someone able to give us this little freedom for a couple weeks each year.

Then there's the failure rate of these devices.  Exceedingling low.

Waterproof your gear.  That's so basic that those who don't know this subject themselves to gene pool maintenance.

Quote:

Some are worring about nuisance calls.

A few well publicised instances of people having to mortgage their homes after they called SAR because something went bump in the night will fix most of these.  The rest can mortgage their homes to pay for their selfish stupidity.  We're selfish too, but at least we're not stupid about it.

SAR is one of those jobs described as hours of boredom with minutes of excitement.  They live for those minutes.  Even the stupid calls are good practice for them.

There are going to be nuisance calls.  So what?  How many people who actually need extraction, like MT did, should wait or die in pain?  Depending on the degree of your opposition to SPOT you're essentially wishing him the pain.  He & I don't get along on political items, but I'll always wish him tight lines and bug-free campsites.

I have rented a spot messenger every year for the last about 5 years. I have always had good results on getting my messages and tracking locations through.  Maybe that is because I read the instructions and ware it on the top of my shoulder where it has a clear view of the sky rather than under my belly on my belt.  I assign a person to be my spot watcher.  That person knows what the buttons mean.  My spot watchers have called my outfitter and told them I would like to be picked up a day early at Hook Island because I pushed the button we had agreed on for that purpose.  I have always arranged to have a signal that means I am ok but I need help getting out of the park. If I send that message I will be expecting help within a few days at my present location. The old Spots have 2 buttons that will send non-emergency messages.  They can be used as one’s and zero’s only you can only send 1 per hour so make your messages short.

I might have already related this (or maybe not) but it bears repeating. After I sent the SOS emergency call in the morning I waited about 3 hours while hobbling around on the sandbar and casting a few lures around.....(huge splashes during the night convinced me of walleye activity just outside my tent). I had managed to "pop" the joint back into place (ouch!) that night but it was swollen and sore.

Anyway, after 3 hours I decided to send a "send help" message to my wife's Email. Maybe have her call the park office etc. etc. Little did I know while I was casting my lure (I did catch a nice walleye and a pike) the SPOT was sending consecutive "send help" messages to my wife......one about every 10 minutes. I think she got 6 or 8 "send help" messages. This had the unfortunate effect of her thinking my situation was indeed dire. I also hadn't realized that SAR had already called her some 3 hours earlier, informing her that I tripped the beacon and they were inquiring about me and my physical condition.

When I finally got to talk to her the first thing she said was "the whole world is praying for you" ;D. She had contacted people we knew in several states and of course the prayer chains in various churches started up. My poor wife.......she is a trooper though and was strong despite not knowing. I must admit a certain calm came over me about the whole situation.

The SAR guys said they had loaded up quickly after getting the call but smoke from the fires had delayed them. So, that is a lesson. If you use the "send help" function it will keep sending a message if you keep it on. (even if you are distracted by some nice walleyes)

Quote:

I have been discussing this with my wife as I plan some crazy wild ass adventures in the parks and she has pointed out that while she has no real issue if I want to die or lay suffering in the woods, what she has a problem with is everyone who is left behind with unanswered questions and the responsibility of finding a body should I fail to return. The technology has improved to the point that price and availability no longer are reasons to go on an adventure without some form of "help" signaling device. So, are we being overly selfish when we want to maintain some of the risk in a wilderness canoe trip?

I have soloed exactly once before and I rented a sat phone at the insistance of my wife.  I was a bit reluctant to do so as I have a few dozen trips under my belt and was fully confident in my abilities.  However, I aquiesced to her wishes when it became clear that the issue was NOT my own confidence in my abilities but rather the worry that she would have gone through for the 9-day duration of the trip.  Mrs. Snow_Dog has a PhD in worrying  ::) and I knew she'd be a wreck if I didn't have the means to summon help.

I also have 3 young kids and have no desire to turn Mrs. Snow_Dog into a single parent against her wishes...or mine.  So I caved.

The problem I ran into was that with the sat-phone came an expectation to "check in" every 2-3 days.  That part, I was NOT happy about.  I mean, I go up there to truly escape civilization and all it's attendant responsibilities.  Last thing I want to be dealing with on a canoe trip is stories about the kids fighting, the car needing a repair, the latest work-related issues she's dealing with, etc.  But that's who she is.  She HAS to talk these things out with SOMEBODY because that's how she deals with stress and if I'm available, I'm the go-to guy.  51 weeks a year I enjoy being able to lighten her burdens in this way.  But on a wilderness trip?  No thanks.

So is it fair for me to be selfish in the sense that I really don't want to open myself up to these conversations on a wilderness trip?  On the one hand, it significantly diminishes the value of my trip.  But on the other, my wife simply cannot comprehend my need to have some time away from the pressure of civilization, family, etc.  She'd be very hurt if I carry a sat phone but insisted on NOT making use of it to check in periodically.

All these issues make the SPOT device seem like a much better alternative for ME.  And when I'm tripping with others, I've been able to successfully defend my unwillingness to carry a means of contact.  But now that she's experienced the sat phone, the SPOT may no longer be an option.  We shall see, as I will be soloing again this year which means the issue is going to come up again.

Riskwise, I know the rules are different when soloing.  I'm not taking stupid chances regardless of whether I can summon help at the push of a button.  I had one bad experience on Basswood in a huge wind on my previous solo that definitely changed the way I assess risk while traveling alone.


Quote:

Further, should the parks maybe start requiring the use of phones or SPOTs?

I could see them eventually requiring users to sign a waiver if they choose not to use a signalling device of some kind but I highly doubt they'd be successful in a push for mandatory useage.  I get the potential liability but the waiver would answer that without stepping on a user's desire to be as free from technology as they choose to be.

I have an immediate resistance to using electronic "devices" out in the bush for all the reasons mentioned already, namely I'm going out there to get unplugged, not plug in.  However, I don't solo and my tandem partner is my wife, so if sh$t should ever hit the fan she'll be the first to know (she always is!)
That being said, I do have a 91 year old mother-in-law and my wife just didn't feel comfortable going off without having any way of knowing if something should happen to her.  What we did last summer was take a SAT phone with voice message capability.  No one was to call us unless it was an emergency and we'd check calls every evening.  Thankfully there never was a call and we found the whole process very unobtrusive.  Under those circumstances I was very happy that we had access the satellite techology, it allowed my wife to rest easy and when my wife rests easy, I rest easy - trust me.

I agree $35 a great price BUT it's the - what, $100 yearly to make it go that's over the top for me. Between gas, fees, fishing license ... my ~2 weeks a year of use can't justify it. Plus, I agree with whoever compared it to a PFD. I often think that when I put mine on I should just go for a walk instead ... DOH! That would make it even harder to find my corpse wouldn't it? See I just can't win.  ;D

Isn't the whole idea of going to the wilderness ,at least subconsciously, to somehow connect with those people who used the area in earlier times? And to experience life free of modern conveniences and worries? 

I go with another person and try to be careful so as not to injury myself or fall out of the canoe. If I have an MI then not sure having a SPOT is going to get anyone there fast enough to save me anyway.  Even 10-15 years ago no one used such devices.  Can't recall reading about losing too many paddlers then.

I for one won't be using a SPOT or cell phone.

Oh, if everything always goes according to plan. A neighbor related the story of being flown it to a remote fishing cabin. One of his buddies was having trouble getting the wood stove in the cabin going and put in a little gas. The explosion and fire burned him very badly. This was before sat phones and spots were even thought of. For days they kept someone outside to signal if a plane came by. The burned man screamed in pain all this time. Eventually a plane came by and delivered the burn victim to a hospital just in time to save his life. I am in favor of taking the devices because, IT IS NOT ABOUT ME!!

If you have kids under driving age you know your responsibilities & priorities.  This is, of course, mitigated by several factors.  Your skill at tripping.  How remote you'll be.  How much your family worries.

I suppose in any spouse relationship it's up to the spouses to find their own way.  My Mrs. is happy just hearing from me once I'm back at the car.

Lots of non-trippers have some crazy ideas about what can and what does happen out there.  Bears & wolves aren't going to get us.  Hypothermia is more likely.  In 20 years of tripping I've been late getting home once.  Mrs. can't make that same claim in a comparable number of nights out with friends.

I'm not a fan of giving in to unreasonable fears, even my own.  Our loved ones need to understand the reality.


Anyone who thinks that going out there connects us to those who lived out there is foolilng themselves.  Life back then was ugly, brutish, and short.  If you're over 40 odds are you would have been dead already.  If you wear shoes, bring food, have a canoe that weighs under 100lbs, have a backpack, etc... you're not connected to them.  We're hobbyists who take the factory-built modern world with us.  The solo-tripper being the most hobby-like of us (that means me).  Exile was the toughest punishment.  It was impossible for a single person to survive for long.  While one person goes out and gets food for everyone another person stays home and makes clothing for everyone someone else gathers nuts & berries yet another works on making the tools.  There aren't enough hours in the day for one person to survive the way they did.  When you're alone with no food, no canoe, no pack, no shelter, and no means other than walking to get out of there on a rainy November day - then you might understand as they did.
We do it to escape.  That's why everyone does everything they do when they have their own time to spend, not company time, not family time, not school time - MY TIME.  The 2 hours between me getting home and Mrs. getting home is MY TIME.  The Tahiti Syndrome runs deep in us, but the reality of actually doing it up here is pretty bleak.
  (You need to Login or Register   (You need to Login or Register


Great example Marten.

monjon wrote on Mar 20^th, 2012 at 1:40pm:

Even 10-15 years ago no one used such devices.

I find this to be fundamentally invalid logic.  With this alone there would be no progress.  Ignoring that there wouldn't be Kevlar, there wouldn't be cedar/canvas or even canoes at all. 

Here's a fun exercise.  Try this on your wife.  Tell her that for years women didn't have rights, didn't need rights.  Ergo, they don't need them now.

It's all relative based on when one started.  Look at the Luddites.  They never claim to actually avoid all technology, just the newer stuff introduced since they got started.  The Amish would love zippers if they got started in the 20th century instead of the 16th.  I've never seen anyone refuse to use simple machines, levers/inclined planes/and such.

Things need to be valid on their own right.

:D

intrepid_camper wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 9:16pm:

Yes, Jimbo, you should JUST GET a Spot.  I pay for the tracking feature in my yearly fees.  Then I can use it to follow my exact bushwack route on Google maps, where my campsites were, etc. and print it out when I get home to add to my journal.  I sometimes will use it to determine how long it took me to cover a certain distance...the posts back home to the computer also register the time of day and date.  Since I do not carry a watch it is sometimes interesting to see how early or late I got out of camp or made camp each day.  You  could use it to mark where you saw that moose, or bear, or even the location of your best lucky fishing holes.  :D

Okay, okay... I reached my "tipping point" on this issue over the campfire in my neighbor's driveway last night.  I agreed to take his 15 year-old son on as my "paddling partner" for my mid-July loop from Bottle through to McIntyre, Burt, Brent, Wicksteed, & McAree.  Something about the mother's heightened anxieties got to me.  The father, an attorney, never blinked an eye.  [Apparently a co-worker of his lurks around QJ & is an avid reader of the BWJ and - despite knowing something about me - told the father his son would likely survive the experience with or without a SPOT2.]

Anyway, as soon as I walked back into the house, I made the purchase using one of those DD "Best Buy" deals.  That way, when my sciatica kicks in while I'm climbing some cliff and over-I-go, at least the search party will be able to follow our "tracks" to our last known location (the SPOT2, you see, will likely be in my pocket as I plunge into the abyss and the kid might not be able to fetch it from my new location at the bottom of the adjacent lake).

So, I caved & bought the danged thing.  Somehow, when it was just people worrying about ME, it just didn't matter... I KNOW I'm going to come out OK (definition includes: even if I DON'T come out, Quetico is a nice final resting place so it all "comes out OK"...  if you catch my drift).  On the other hand, to have valued neighbors worrying about their son on his very first wilderness adventure with their kooky neighbor for twelve whole days??  The peace of mind & good will the SPOT2 will buy me with them makes the SPOT2 a good choice at ANY price.

C'est la vie, mes amis....

Jacques-bo   8-)

sitting in the Toyota dealership..........wife hated the Prius. Ended up with a Camry.........a bit classier.

Isn't this whole discussion about being in control of ones own situation via technology? If you have never gone down it is easy to be cavalier about it. I certainly was.

Now in the back of my mind is "if it happened once it could happen again". What a SAT phone or a SPOT does is allow for some peace of mind. I can still enjoy a carefree attitude without self doubt hovering over my head knowing that a floatplane is but a phone call away. This becomes even more important as one ages and the illusion of indestructability is gone.

-with every loss there a gain...with every gain there is a loss. I've been hoping that this whole computer/techno thing would go out of style as some bad dream/poor taste idea of the marginalized youth and antisocial neard sector.  But alas! (is that still a word ?)-hopes of that actually happening,are right up there with the hopes of the guys who at the turn of the last century,hoped that the internal combustion engine and electricity(not to mention fences), would  just please go away...

knafelc wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 12:11am:

-with every loss there a gain...with every gain there is a loss. I've been hoping that this whole computer/techno thing would go out of style as some bad dream/poor taste idea of the marginalized youth and antisocial neard sector.  But alas! (is that still a word ?)-hopes of that actually happening,are right up there with the hopes of the guys who at the turn of the last century,hoped that the internal combustion engine and electricity(not to mention fences), would  just please go away...

I am actually quite sympathetic to your position. I dislike MP3 players and Ipod type noise making devices as well as electronic gaming systems. These devices would have no place on my trips. In my mind they are enemies to be avoided like the plague. One has to free of such things before the serenity of wild places can have a chance to take hold. To be honest, I find it hard to achieve that stillness of soul even in large talkative groups........someone is always drowning out the sound of the wind in the trees, the dragonfly as it makes a hard turn in flight and the gentle flip of a small bass.............

Having said that I do not compare a SAT phone as obtrusive at all. Even if one makes the occasional "I'm OK" call it encompasses what perhaps a few minutes tops. Otherwise it stays tucked away. Same with the SPOT. The sending of a message (I'm OK) is not much different than the myriad of other tasks one does about camp and honestly much less than a typical camp chore.

Am I trying to justify my position. Perhaps.....I just see the communication devices as rather unobtrusive for the most part, as in "what's the big deal"? I don't "get it"........that is, the animosity. (Now if it stayed on and crackled all day like a VHF marine radio that would be totally annoying........that I could understand). 

Peace of mind is actually a big part of why many of us seek out the wilderness. A communication device can now help and aid us in getting that. Change is something I now forget to accept at times,as it's easier to resit adaptation. Playing the infexible curmudgion and the retrogressive fool can be fun in a perverse way,but only untill you come to regret not having all of your options there when you or your loved ones need them. Excuse me for seeming to discourge you. I was just spouting off.

knafelc wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 2:37am:

Peace of mind is actually a big part of why many of us seek out the wilderness. A communication device can now help and aid us in getting that.

I get the peace of mind, safety aspect but as a long time solo paddler, that would actually detract from the experience for me. Fear is never boring. My first solo was before the internet, before I even knew they made solo boats. I fully expected to be told "go home idiot" the first time they asked for the alt group leader. To me, a lot of the allure is being self sufficient, being by my self like it once was for some.

Honestly, if I ever really needed to press the help button, I wouldn't be able to or pride and the possibility of embarrassment would prevent me from doing it until it was too late. (Which wouldn't be a bad thing either I guess. They'd know where my corpse was. ;))

To each his/her own. Cool tools but I don't even have a cell phone or the desire to be that in touch every second of the day. Leave a message at the tone. I'll get back to you when I feel like it.

Quote:

To each his/her own. Cool tools but I don't even have a cell phone or the desire to be that in touch every second of the day. Leave a message at the tone. I'll get back to you when I feel like it.

Pretty well sums up my feelings.

I'm going to have go back and read this entire thread.  I had something happen recently that is making me think.  :-/

On Monday I presented a program to our local small-town Lions Club.  They asked me to do a program with my photos and talk about our 40 years of canoe-tripping.  I spent a LOT of time preparing this program (way more than a one-hour program for 16 people probably warranted) and it was very well-received.  I wrote up a nice talk and made a Power Point slide show with about 300 photos.  They laughed in the right places of my talk and they oohed and aahed at the photos, especially some of the ones that I particularly like.  That was neat. They were very polite and saved their questions until the end, just as I had requested.  If I do say so myself, it was a good program.   ::)

But when the questions started, I was a bit taken aback.  There were just a couple about gear.  Then the main questions were along this line:  "What was the scariest moment you ever had on a canoe trip?"   "What would you do if you had an emergency?"  "Aren't you afraid to be up there where there is no help?", etc.   They are mainly a senior age group, and they think we are crazy.

Spartan1 and I fielded the questions, but after I got home I realized that I should just have said that we had far more danger each time we make the drive from mid-Michigan to Minnesota in our car with a canoe on top than we probably face on a canoe trip. 

Still. . . .now that I am turning 67 before my next trip, I am thinking that a SPOT seems like a good thing.  Spartan1 had one on his fishing trip with Ramsey last year and I did enjoy seeing that "I'm OK" message in the evening.

When I get time I'll go back and see what y'all had to say.

;)

Quote:

But when the questions started, I was a bit taken aback.  There were just a couple about gear.  Then the main questions were along this line:  "What was the scariest moment you ever had on a canoe trip?"   "What would you do if you had an emergency?"  "Aren't you afraid to be up there where there is no help?", etc.   They are mainly a senior age group, and they think we are crazy.

My late Mother was a very adventurous person while I was growing up, but I noticed as she aged and started developing physical infirmities, she became much less so.

Maybe it was all the doom and gloom news stories she watched 24/7, but she was worried about things that are so low on the list of things that could go wrong on a daily basis, it drove me crazy.

I see it now with my aging friends. I go most places alone and they just think I'm crazy as hell for doing so.
Like you, I think the drive up/back is the most dangerous part of any trip.

Still, if a SPOT/SAT gives you peace of mind in your situation, then you should do what makes you feel better 8-)

It's not just older folks who think we're crazy for canoeing in the wilderness, especially solo.  Here in Ohio, I'm amazed how many people of varying age have similar questions and reactions experienced in Spartan2's post.  Isn't it dangerous?  What if something happens?  Aren't you afraid of dangerous or poisonous insects or animals?  What about bad storms?

As for SPOT, I've used one for several trips now.  The only issue that came up early on was the first time I couldn't get the thing to link to a satellite at a secluded campsite.  Usually my wife gets an email each night.  She said she was really worried when the email didn't come until an email came the following night.  We talked some when I returned home.  Since that one time, she now knows a day or two break in the daily emails is probably nothing....but a little worry is still there in the back of her mind. 

I think that is my concern about using a SPOT for "I'm OK" messages.  People begin to count on them, and they worry more if there isn't one.  Our kids (we no longer have any parents to worry) don't expect any communication from us now, so I guess I would just as soon not start a regular communication that they are expecting.

But the idea of being able to summon help does interest me.  I am not naive enough to think that help could get there in time if one of us had a heart attack or serious stroke and were in danger of imminent death.  We take that risk, and we have discussed it, decided we are willing to take the risk, and we go anyway.

But I do have a personal fear that if my husband were to die on a canoe trip (as a long-time insulin-dependent diabetic with other complications he is more statistically at risk for heart and vascular events, although his yearly tests are always good) I am neither strong enough nor physically fit enough anymore to get myself and a 17-foot canoe plus basic gear back out again.  He carries a lot of the weight for me now, and it would be a really big challenge for me to return alone.  Of course we don't go to really remote places anymore, but even so. . . .if you are five or six portages from the entry point. . . .

I always tell myself that if something dire happened, someone would paddle by in a canoe in a day or so, and I would call to them.  People in the canoe country are good people and they would help me to get back out.  Right?

But having a SPOT begins to look more practical every year.  Maybe when I turn 70.   ;)

Oh, and I guess I have two other things to add.

To ST:  my late mother was also adventuresome, but she was a basket case when I was out on a canoe trip.  She was convinced that something awful would happen to me.  She, however, was perfectly bold to take me, as a teenager, just the two of us to Chicago for several days of shopping and shows and dining in great restaurants--she drove, parked the car, walked all over downtown Chicago, hailed a cab, etc.  And she, a small-town woman who shocked all of her friends with her courage.  I never knew anything to scare that woman.  She told a story about clubbing a rattlesnake to death with a stick on her way home from elementary school (in Wyoming) and I believe it was true.

But yet she was always afraid for me in the canoe country.  I never could figure it out until I had children.

Pine Knot:  I know what you mean.  It hasn't been just the older people.  Most everyone we know has thought we are crazy, and thought that our method of vacationing is "dangerous".  Spartan1 has shared my photo books with his friends for years and I am always greatly amused when they tell me how courageous I am.   ;)

Spartan2,

I agree with you about people relying receiving the "OK" messages. I soloed Quetico L. a few years ago and had my parents and girlfriend at the time on the receiving list. Both said they were antsy if they didn't receive a message in the evening (when I planned to send them). Interestingly, they were also the folks who insisted that I buy it and use it. I don't think they had the right mindset to begin with.

If I solo again I'll probably carry the SPOT with me again but I'll try to lay down the law about not counting on receiving a message.

My whole take on it is, if it helps you or the folks at home feel more secure, bring it.

Ummm, ya know, I never thought of the Spartans as being THAT old. ;)   Hey, take it as a compliment because it is. My responses were based on my 50 something adventurer paddler perspective.

I agree the "I'm OK" messages could certainly be problematic. They sound cool for show and tell but I'd freak out too if I didn't get a regularly scheduled email. What about a PLB? Is there a cost/response difference for either thingy/subscription when pressing the "I'm not OK" button?

FWIW everyone I know who's not been along on a trip thinks we're all nutjobs. That's a GOOD thing. Those without enough of a clue that it has to be explained to them? Who cares what they think?

Calgon · Take Me Away!

There are a number of ways of using a SPOT device.  But one is (as others have mentioned) to bury it in a pack and onlyuse it if a call for help if that is needed.  In that sense, is it not essentially just another tool in your emergency medical kit.  For me, being new technology has never been a reason not to put something in the med-kit. SPOT used this way is not even a new concept.  It is just more effective then a whistle or a signalling mirror.  Same purpose, just greater range.

Yup.  I think I like the way you put it, azalea.

And db, that was, indeed, a compliment.  I will take it as such.   ;D    There has been a thread on another site about "getting old", and I have been most amused about the guys turning 50 and saying that they are working out, they are stronger than they were in their 20's and it will just last forever.  They are NEVER going to get old and slow down!  And I smile and tell them to wait fifteen years and see if they are still on that track.   ;)

We started our canoe-tripping in our mid-twenties.  Our trips in the Q were in our thirties.  Our best and longest trips were when we were in our forties and early fifties.  I guess we didn't think we were ever going to slow down either, but guess what?   ::)

Quote:

Anyone who thinks that going out there connects us to those who lived out there is foolilng themselves.

Hey Preacher,

I'm gonna give a different take on this one.

It hinges on the word "connects," of course.

I certainly don't equate the rigor of our trips to the wilderness with the life of my ancestors. Modern equipment, serious help just a call (if you get SPOT/SAT/CELL stuff) away, at the end of the trip I'm back in a truck, house, paying job and so on and so on.

I fully understand that, and agree with your "hobby" vs. "brutish" comparison.

Just like Hollywood, we tend to glamorize and romanticize everything from ranch life to pioneer settlements to explorers and even war. What's the saying about adventure, that it sounds fun until you're in one?

However, there are moments when I'm in the bush where I do gain an inkling of understanding of what life was like back then and do begin to feel what they felt, and do experience some of what they experienced.

Yeah, it's a limited connection, but it's there nonetheless.

For example:

When I'm in the woods for a while, I begin to lose sense of time as in a day measured by a clock. Now it's measured by the sun. The day is sun-up to sun-down. Actually, I don't even carry a watch. The structure of the day changes, as do my sense of "deadlines."

Slowly and surely, my activities begin to be dictated by the weather. Always a nose to the wind, an eye on the sky. Canoeing on big lakes, or hunting deer, especially so.

I don't eat if I don't cook. Can't go through the drive-thru. Wife ain't cooking.

Medically, if you're hurt, you fix it. Guy I was with hit his thumb with an ax on day 3 -- he dealt with it. Wrapped it tight, kept paddling and fishing and cutting wood and cleaning fish (but not pumping water -- we had a gravity system!), and unwrapping and cleaning the wound every day. Granted, it wasn't a broken leg or an arrow wound or animal bite. However he knew he couldn't go to the local ER for some stitches, knew Ibuprofen was about the best he could do for the pain.

When my partner flipped our canoe while fishing (yeah, it was HIS fault, heh heh) on a rainy day in mid-September, I found myself swimming a canoe to shore, crawling up on a log at the base of a cliff and manuevering to empty the canoe and get stuff back loaded, then eventually getting back to camp and some dry clothes. Nobody rescued us. We got ourselves into the mess, then we got ourselves out of it. Self-reliance.

And every time I've had to get a fire started (or re-started after a downpour) with a woods saturated by days of rain, I've instantly felt empathy for the guys who'd had to do the same things sans fire sticks or matches or other modern conveniences. It was easier for me, but I understood -- right then and there -- how such a small thing could have been so big of a deal. And once I DID get it started, I saw immediately just how much a fire would have meant to them on such a day.

And more from a spiritual standpoint, I wrote a piece for a magazine once about going off into the woods alone with a rifle, shooting a deer at dusk, then cleaning and cooking part of it over a fire of honey locust branches I'd broken with my hands while camped on a ridge overlooking a deep ravine. The ending was something like:

As I savored each bite beneath Orion's steadfast watch, I felt wildness and wisdom creep into my soul. I tried to imagine what it had been like two, three, four hundred years ago. And I wondered whether on that same ridge, amid the same solitude, a hunter had cleaned and cooked his kill around a flickering fire, warmed by the same exhilaration of the hunt.

Hokey? Maybe a bit.

But I can tell you that sitting around a fire late at night, listening to the night sounds, eating an animal I just killed myself and surrounded by stars, I do feel emotionally connected more to my ancestors than to my modern-day colleagues, few of whom would ever dream of doing such a thing, or could cross that moral line and take a life, who would gag at the sight of blood, who could even start a fire, and who would surely feel uncomfortable or even afraid out in the wilderness alone.

Am I Daniel Boone or Simon Kenton? (referencing my Kentucky forebearers, you northern woods guys and women insert your own pioneering explorers).

No.

But at such times, for a brief moment, I firmly believe there's a direct line to the heart of my forefathers, whose every moment centered on eating enough and staying warm enough to live another day.

THAT'S why I go out there.

(Thanks for letting me explain, man!)

-- kypaddler 

kypaddler,

I like the way you think 8-)

That was beautiful,Ky.Paddler. I think an awful lot of of us are looking to make that sort of conection. We're not going on a "vacation" away from our job,the" hustle and bustle",'dem wimmens',or for the exercize.  Those of us who are fairely far away and make a very special 'trip' out of getting into that ,...so very hard hard to find...,remote wilderness,are mostly looking for the "magic"...  I'm going to church when I get to go. I suppose that's why some folks worry about letting all this modern "small world" technology come along. Could be it'd spook the 'magic' and turn the whole thing into just a " vacation".  I too, like the way you think. Thanks for laying it out for us so nicely.

I, too, agree with KyPaddler's "take" on going into the boonies.  I can't really appreciate how the voyageurs and natives lived, but I can appreciate that I have luxuries they couldn't have dreamed of.  Where to start - Gore-Tex? Velcro? Freeze-drying? Air mattresses?  About the only thing I do that they did is eat jerky (used to be pemmican) and paddle.  OK, portage, too, but I'm a wuss by comparison.

Also, I find it's only after several days in the bush that I start to consider how earlier people lived.  It takes that long to figure out where I am.

I think just filling my lungs full of the sweet early morning air and seeing the change of color and light is enough to let me share something pretty strong with those who have stood on the very same shore at dawn.  ...

Quote:

About the only thing I do that they did is eat jerky...

Just made some venison jerky with my son the other day. Had to hide it to keep he and my daughter from taking it all to school. Last fall, at the beginning of the year, we made a big batch, and I found out later my son had taken some to school 3-4 days in a row to let all his friends (small, poor urban grade school) try some. On Friday, they had Student Council elections, and he came home to tell me he'd been elected in a landslide.

I started laughing. "So that's what a vote is worth these days -- a stick of deer jerky? You run on a platform of a chicken in every pot and  jerky in every lunch box?"

-- kypaddler