Has the topic of eating organically while canoeing been discussed? As I personally become more committed to eating organically I find it difficult to travel by conventional means. So I am interested in others attempts to eat organically while canoeing.
Jon Bratt Bird Island

Wow... total failure here.  All healthy food consumption is suspended when I'm in the bush!

prouboy

Would be interested to know your definition of "eating organically".  Do you mean whole foods, all fresh foods, only foods/animal products grown with totally organic farming methods. . .???

For sixteen years we did canoe-tripping while trying to adapt our canoeing diet to the kidney disease diet.  Low sodium, low potassium, low protein, all within the parameters of a diet for a person with insulin-dependent diabetes.  That was a challenge.

It is hard for me to imagine trying to do "organic", but then, I thought we couldn't do/wouldn't survive the kidney diet either, and we did. 

I will be watching to see what sort of replies you get to this query.

I am now at the point where I prefer to only eat foods grown organically. Free range,  grass fed meat. No pesticides. Anyone else doing this in the Quetico? And how?

Jon Bratt

100% fish out of the lake is organic

Free range? Grass fed? Indeed.....the good stuff!

Your options are rather limited as I believe firearms are prohibited in the Quetico. But all is not lost. Location is everything. The selected tree must near enough to the game trail to assure the proper trajectory. The limb from which you would propel yourself must be high enough to avoid detection but low enough that should you "miss" your intended target you would not sustain severe injury.

As for the method of dispatch.......well they all have their devotees. Personally I'm a spear man but some of the more modern methods include the knife between the teeth and/or the lasso.

Avoid yelling on the descent. This may spook your quarry. Brightly colored bandanas are a no-no. Also avoid the male species as they sport a particularly nasty set of defensive capabilities arrayed on top of their head.......can't miss it. And lastly I suggest the smaller varieties. If you do decide for some of the larger specimens meandering about be sure and take 2 spears and perhaps a knife.......and a slingshot......a club might also come in handy.

I'm a big believer that we are what we eat, or don't eat.
I also believe that the closer we can get to eating things that are not overly processed the better off we'll be.

However like most things, the Devils in the details. Just becasue something is billed as organic or the guy selling it says it is, doesn't mean your getting what you think you are?

The difference price wise between organic food and "processed" food is considerable. Make sure your getting what your paying for.

I Googled Organic food, pros/cons and there are numerous articles addressing it.

In the BWCA/Q, you can't go wrong with fresh fish for a high quality protein source. I like to make my own food mixes sans preservatives.

Wild rice or anyone of the complex grains you can buy at health food stores/Internet in bulk can be partially cooked/dehydrated and reconstituted in camp with a little effort.

Do your experimenting at home, not in camp.
I have an old edition of the One Burner Gourmet a bible for back packers.
I just substitute whole grains for processed and made adjustments in the seasonings to cut back on the sodium.

You can eat as healthy as you want with a little effort. Leaving out the preservatives shortens the shelf life, but a little planning takes care of that.

 

Get a good dehydrator and a book detailing how to make your own trail food.
You'll save money and can tailor your meals to your taste and individual diet requirements.

If you check your local rules for what qualifies as 'Organic' you may be surprised & disappointed.

Definitely eat reasonably healthy!  A varied diet, smart carbs (squash vs potatoes), whole proteins, good fibre, blablabla...

Yeah I'm the double-blind study as the Gold Standard guy that declares proof beats belief every time.  Folks are welcome to believe what they want and to pay triple the price for a banana that your body can't tell the difference and doesn't care.  Organic food marketing is a source of amusement for me.

Much of the regulations are subject to interpretation and represent a point-in-time.  Fertilisers & pesticides for example.  No farmer can be successful without them, but which ones fit the definition for Organic?  What has been discovered since the point-in-time that renders the list punitive or unreasonable?


Give me spots on my apples. But leave me the birds and the bees. Please! - Joni Mitchell



For food on a trip I am careful to ensure that my daily diet contains good sources of calories.  High protein with complete proteins is paramount, only protein can repair.  Since I avoid meat as a staple on trips I supplement protein with TVP & tofu.  Getting complete proteins without meat.

Solo tripping offers its own challenges.  I find I eat a lot less while solo.  Eating becomes a chore.  I know I must eat to keep my energy up and to repair my body after a long day of hauling gear.

If your looking to eat healthier at home and while tripping, you should take the time to see what is and isn't just media hype or the fad of the day.

This link provides some useful information about Protein from Lean meats and Vegetables as well as dangers from both and other important info.

Don't think that lean meat is better or that vegetable protein is either. Both have pluses/minuses and that should be taken into account when you make your food choices.

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You may want to look into taking fresh and frozen foods with you.  Kondos has an insulated food pack that supposedly works pretty well.  Of course this increases weight, and during the hotter months will only keep food cold for 4-5 days, so isn't completely reliable for a long trek.

There are plenty of organic, relatively shelf-stable options out there at Whole Foods and other similar retailers.  Plus, you can always make your own energy bars, granola, etc.

I would say that the key to eating healthy and well on canoe trips is owning a dehydrator.  For a relatively small initial cost you can decide for yourself the quality of the food you eat.  I prefer to eat organically and locally grown foods and with a dehydrator I can do both and take meals that are delicious, nutrious and lightweight.  My wife and I like to eat well and on our 3 week trips it's gourmet all the way with chilis, stews, borschts and soups, re-fried beans and dozens of other dishes, not to mention all sorts of fruits and vegetables dried fresh and in season.  Of course this is all boosted with fresh fish and berries.  We also take a variety of peas and beans that we sprout as we go for something truly fresh.  With a dehydrator you can completely get away from processed foods and all that freeze dried crap which tends to be flush with preservatives and more often than not, foul tasting to boot.  By the way, if you really want to get into it try using a reflector oven.  We took one with us for the first time last summer and it was sooooo cool - date nut loaf, corn bread, home made chocolate brownies (no package mixes for us!) - mmmmmm!  The only things we don't bring are table cloths, candelabra and a roving violinist to set the mood (we'll just have to be satisfied with loons and wolves, I guess.)

Here, you can get yourself a tiny chandelier for your tent.  Dine in style!
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Dehydrators are awesome.  Better food.  Saves money too.

[quote author=Preacher link=1332808015/11#11 date=1332879114]Here, you can get yourself a tiny chandelier for your tent.  Dine in style!
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Dare I say it, my search is over.
Hey wait a minute, Preacher, you think I don't see what you're trying to do?  You're telling me to bring food into my tent so I'll get eaten by bears.  I'm on to you, Preacher.  Watch your back.
Kerry "you sayin I'm paranoid?" Gordon

Kerry wrote on Mar 27^th, 2012 at 7:20pm:

I would say that the key to eating healthy and well on canoe trips is owning a dehydrator.  For a relatively small initial cost you can decide for yourself the quality of the food you eat.  I prefer to eat organically and locally grown foods and with a dehydrator I can do both and take meals that are delicious, nutrious and lightweight.  My wife and I like to eat well and on our 3 week trips it's gourmet all the way with chilis, stews, borschts and soups, re-fried beans and dozens of other dishes, not to mention all sorts of fruits and vegetables dried fresh and in season.  Of course this is all boosted with fresh fish and berries.  We also take a variety of peas and beans that we sprout as we go for something truly fresh.  With a dehydrator you can completely get away from processed foods and all that freeze dried crap which tends to be flush with preservatives and more often than not, foul tasting to boot.  By the way, if you really want to get into it try using a reflector oven.  We took one with us for the first time last summer and it was sooooo cool - date nut loaf, corn bread, home made chocolate brownies (no package mixes for us!)

Funny.  I did a bit of shopping today.  Mexicali Rose Refried Beans was on the list of items to pick up ... beef and bean burritos are usually very tasty a few days in on a trip.  Rehydrate the salsa and ground sirloin (after cooking in some seasonings), but I still haven't found a way to successfully transport avocados to the bush.

Corn bread, of course, along with biscuits and fry bread!  Brownies, maybe.  But I'm thinking more in terms of banana nut bread, poppy seed  or maybe blueberry muffins.  I've done those with my home built reflector oven ... to which I added a rack this weekend (already thinking about pizza).  BTW:  Last season I did blueberry muffins for breakfast, cooked in a stainless steel cup using the steam bath method.  Those were some HUGE moist muffins!!

dd

"We also take a variety of peas and beans that we sprout as we go for something truly fresh."

hah! sprouts - that brings back memories of days gone by on backpacking trips - not me, but it used to be fairly poplular.

here is a source for organic freeze dried (or maybe its dehydrated?)   

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Hi again
I am underwhelmed at the responses so far. I hoped that there were a few more serious foodies in QJ.  Kerry's advice was solid and  I am generally following his advice but I was looking for a bit more depth. Are Quetico fish mercury free? I personally believe if you don't eat organically, cancer is in your future and may be anyway from the carcinogenic bath industrial civilization living entails. The least you can do is make an effort not to ingest chemicals or put them on your skin. Canoe trip eating is easier when giving in to the temptation to eat a lot of processed, preserved foods but it degrades the experience for me. I have a dehydrator and have done ingredients for spaghetti and soups.  I was really hoping to kick start a conversation  with a few like minded foodies who have found great things that work for them to maintain their healthy eating habits while Quetico tripping. As much as personally like MT and very much would like to spend a day fishing with him in Kawnipi so I can explain to him in detail why, when Jesus comes back to earth he will for sure be a socialist community organizer, his hunting advice was not helpful to the conversation. I have one meal I do repeatedly. Spaghetti made by sauteing fresh onions and garlic in olive oil then adding H2O and re hydrating tomatoes first, then adding celery, green and red peppers with Italian seasonings. Then adding tomato powder (available at food co-ops) and more H20 if necessary and some red wine. After simmering for 10 minutes or so this is fantastic. Whole wheat organic noodles and some freshly grated Parmesan can  be produced in prodigious quantity to make a 2000 calorie meal if needed.
Jon Bratt Bird Island

PS
Mary Janes freeze dried foods are incredibly expensive.
Jon Bratt Bird Island

Jon wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 2:47am:

Are Quetico fish mercury free?

Perhaps that question was simply rhetorical but what the heck. Here's a handy map to get an idea of consumption advisories based on measured levels of Mercury, PCBs, mirex/photomirex, pesticides ... -I think Mercury alone is the main issue in Quetico.
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Hey, wait a minute. Mercury is organic right? Guess that free range swimming protein is good to go then. Abbondanza!  :D

"Hi again
I am underwhelmed at the responses so far. I hoped that there were a few more serious foodies in QJ.  Kerry's advice was solid and  I am generally following his advice but I was looking for a bit more depth. Are Quetico fish mercury free? I personally believe if you don't eat organically, cancer is in your future and may be anyway from the carcinogenic bath industrial civilization living entails. The least you can do is make an effort not to ingest chemicals or put them on your skin. Canoe trip eating is easier when giving in to the temptation to eat a lot of processed, preserved foods but it degrades the experience for me. I have a dehydrator and have done ingredients for spaghetti and soups.  I was really hoping to kick start a conversation  with a few like minded foodies who have found great things that work for them to maintain their healthy eating habits while Quetico tripping."


well, to each his own, but you come across like a nutcase to me -

most people on QJ are more interested in canoeing for the canoeing or fishing experience rather than looking for an organic experience

Mad_Mat wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 12:10pm:

" well, to each his own, but you come across like a nutcase to me - most people on QJ are more interested in canoeing for the canoeing or fishing experience rather than looking for an organic experience

Hey Max, chill.  Just because a person wants to eat well while enjoying a canoe trip doesn't make them a nut case, surely.  I know, I know, "don't call me Shirley."  But seriously, when I'm out there for 3 plus weeks I want to eat well.  And why not.  It's just as easy to eat good healthy and delicious meals as to eat crap.  Given the choice, I choose the former and I'm guessing I'm not alone.  Of course you can call me crazy when you see me, I'll be the guy stuffing his face with home made (organic) corn bread and killer (organic) chili.
Jon, as to whether the fish are mercury laden.  At this point in our earth's history, all fish are no matter that they're wild.  But I'm a lot better off eating smaller fish like Walleye than Tuna.  The higher on the food chain and the older (larger) the fish, the more mercury and other contaminants you're likely to find.  That being said, I'm past 60 and at this point I'm aware that there are too many things that can kill me to worry about all of them.  Sometimes you just pays your money and takes your chances.  No way I'm going into the wilderness and not eating fresh caught fish.  No way.

The nut case checking back in. I eat a lot of fish when in the Quetico. It seems to me that being in the park is about as natural, non-civilization experience as one can have in the world today. I thought others might agree with me that dragging a lot of processed unhealthy food along would be a somewhat counter to that. I am surprised at the responses. I guess QJ participants are more into insulting each other than anything. I'll try to do more of that but it's not easy for some of us.
Jon

Nut job or not, it's the attitude that slays me.  I just love when new folks show up at the QJ forums and get upset when not enough of us share their same passions outside of canoe camping.  Hopefully Jon can get over his disappointment in 99% of us.

Honestly, I actually thought you got some good feedback Jon.  Why are you complaining?

Quote:

I personally believe if you don't eat organically, cancer is in your future

I'm a firm believer that 75%+ of illness is lifestyle related.
However that other 25% is genetic and while I don't think eating organic is a bad thing, I also don't think it's the answer to everything either.

Depending on the chemical used/how its used and the type of item it's used on, organic may or may not be a better option.

Take grapes. They come in a "hard case". If the chemical used is to keep the bugs from devouring them and isn't present in the soil/water as they grow, then cleaning them with the proper solution makes them every bit as healthy as organic ones and at a much cheaper price.

You could grow a food item without any chemicals added and depending on the soil/water that's used, it could still get "organic" chemicals introduced into it without your knowledge.
Remember many toxic substance are "organic". We all know now how bad Radon is for you.

Rather than making a blanket statement about only eating organic, I think you/we would be better served in saying we as consumers should become better educated across the board about were/how are food is grown/raised/processed and not get caught up in the mantra of whatever diet/lifestyle that's the hot one of the moment.

I believe knowledge is the key to health and moderation should be your guide in all things.
I wouldn't hesitate to eat fish from the BWCA/Q in moderation IF fish was a regular part of your diet.
If your only eating fish a few times a year mostly on your wilderness trips, I wouldn't worry at all.

Like Kerry says, everything on EARTH is polluted to some degree. Stress is the biggest disease cause/precursor of all. Worrying about every little thing you consume is worse than occasionally eating something that may not be the best for you.

Making/dehydrating your own meals is the way to go if your worried about content.
You can make things at a fraction of the price and since your going to consume them on your trip, you don't need all the additives necessary for a long shelf life.

If you do little research, you can make any recipe healthier by substituting for the "bad" items and adding extra spices/seasonings to replace the taste that fat provides.
I do it all the time with recipes I see in the media. I just "tweak" it healthier and no-one is the wiser.

Huh. I've never seen a question like this before so I did some poking around. I knew you could buy organic cheese but I had no clue you could buy organic sausage. I was also unaware that the freeze dried food I normally buy for trips is advertised as all natural -  no preservatives, no additives, and no artificial flavors or colors. I just buy certain ones 'cause I like them and they are oh-so very convenient. I also bring lots of different candy on trips that I'd never eat at home and it seems that candy can be organic as well. Probably just as heavy though..

Point is, I think I learned something from this thread. I simply assumed eating strictly organic would necessarily mean über healthy. Seems I was waaaay off since you can eat all organic stuff and still have a diet that is just as admittedly unhealthy as my own or worse. Who'd a thunk it?

Oddly enough, I consider what may be in the fish I eat on a trip. Doesn't change anything on a solo but I do consider it to the point that if I miss a little belly meat, I don't feel guilty about a little waste anymore. Plus, critters gotta eat too.

Quote:

I simply assumed eating strictly organic would necessarily mean über healthy

a (1) : of, relating to, or derived from living organisms <organic evolution> (2) : of, relating to, yielding, or involving the use of food produced with the use of feed or fertilizer of plant or animal origin without employment of chemically formulated fertilizers, growth stimulants, antibiotics, or pesticides <organic farming> <organic produce>

That common assumption hasn't been lost on the marketing industry. From fabric to food items the marketers, especially the multi-national food makers have found that slapping the "organic"label on an item means you can charge a lot more and depending on the product/item, it may or may not be any healthier/better than the non-organic item. There are standards but even they can be confusing and people are notoriously lazy when it comes to reading labels. They see a big organic label/sticker and that's as far as they look. Worse case scenario the mfg's just admit they were confused and re-label the product.

You would think the definition is fairly concise and simple enough, but in the days of corporate lawyers/ techno babble and parsing of words and meanings there is a lot of "wiggle room" involved in the term "organic".

Best advice is to make sure your getting what you think you are and is the extra cost in many cases warranted :-/

Jon ate fish in Q
So jon ate mercury
So cancer is inevitable in jons future

Eat however you like jon.  More power to ya.  Doesn't interest me though. 
...added(not trying to be smart...just trying to follow the logic.  I encourage thee to eat as organicaly as you can should you desire).

Jon, you said, "I personally believe if you don't eat organically, cancer is in your future".

And I stopped paying attention.  Not because there isn't a germ of truth in that statement, but because when people make rash generalizations about such things, I figure they have an agenda that is far beyond anything that my small knowledge and experience can contribute to.

My mother-in-law is ninety-four years old.  She lived on the same farm for almost her entire life and to say the farming methods there were NOT organic is perhaps an understatement.  (chemical fertilizers, pesticides, weedkillers, etc.)  Drank from a well on the property, ate mainly vegetables grown on the farm, and mainly meat grown on the farm, and for many years drank raw milk from cows on the farm.  No cancer.  She has four living children, all in their late 50's to mid-60's now.  No cancer.

Now she may live to be 100, so cancer may still be in her future.  And my father-in-law did have cancer, so he might prove your theory.

We should all eat healthier foods than we do.  And we should all make an effort to find out how our food is grown and prepared, if that is possible.  But if we eat in a healthy manner for fifty or forty-nine weeks out of the year, and we relax those standards a bit on vacation, (as most of us probably do), I really wonder how serious that becomes in the grand scheme of things?

I sympathize with you, Jon, that you didn't get a lot of serious information from this group to help in your quest.  It just occurs to me that this group is more into other things than a fine-tuned organic diet.  So, really, you did get an answer to your initial question.  It just wasn't the one you were hoping for.

"I am interested in others attempts to eat organically while canoeing".

It would appear that no one here, except possibly Kerry, makes much of an attempt.

Spartan2 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 4:22pm:

It would appear that no one here, except possibly Kerry, makes much of an attempt.

While I see your point Spartan, I'm not entirely sure I agree with your conclusion.  While I don't get the impression that many on this board are "fundamentalist foodies" there seem to be quite a few, like SoloTripper and me, who consider the food we eat. To me eating healthy is not about giving something up. To eat well is not a chore, it's a reward.  So when I go on vacation in the bush I most definitely want to reward myself with good food.  I mean why not? If I have a choice between a Snickers bar and a really good piece of chocolate, hell, I'm going for the chocolate.  Of course, that's just me.  But you get my point.  I'm definitely not into denying myself.  Eating in a healthy way isn't about depriving myself of all the things I love.  On the contrary, it's a choice for something that gives me pleasure.  Fundamentalism can be applied to anything, including health.  And when it is, it turns even health into a compulsion.  Yes you can be addicted to "being healthy," a person can be addicted to anything.  The issue isn't about what we do but how conscious we are of what we're doing.  It's like ST said, if you get all hung up about every damn thing you eat, then the neurosis you've taken on about eating completely undermines whatever  positive health benefits there might be (well, that's not exactly what he said but, you know, sort of.)  But lets not throw  the baby out with the bath water.  When I choose to eat well, it's not some kind of penance, like I really want to eat junk food but because I've "sworn" to be "pure" I don't.  To me, that sounds like hell.  I have no idea where Jon stands on this so I'm not defending his position, I'm just sayin'.

I hear what you are saying, Kerry.

But what you are saying and what Solotripper are saying is about "eating healthy".  To me, that is a very different thing than "eating organically".

I am not saying that on vacation we should all just eat junk food.  I actually make a spaghetti sauce (for my whole-grain pasta) that is much like Jon's, myself!  We eat whole-grain crackers and natural all-peanut peanut butter, etc.  We watch our sodium and count our carbs, and read our food labels quite carefully.  But it isn't what we eat at home.

But he expressed a deep concern that no one else shares his level of commitment to a truly organic diet in the Quetico.  In reading the replies, I would say that that seems to be true.  And the fact that it disappoints him is unfortunate, but I think the comment about him needing to be more insulting was rather unnecessary.

And I haven't had a Snickers bar in 35 years.   ;D

Spartan2 wrote on Apr 8^th, 2012 at 10:55am:

I hear what you are saying, Kerry. But what you are saying and what Solotripper are saying is about "eating healthy".  To me, that is a very different thing than "eating organically". I am not saying that on vacation we should all just eat junk food.  I actually make a spaghetti sauce (for my whole-grain pasta) that is much like Jon's, myself!  We eat whole-grain crackers and natural all-peanut peanut butter, etc.  We watch our sodium and count our carbs, and read our food labels quite carefully.  But it isn't what we eat at home. But he expressed a deep concern that no one else shares his level of commitment to a truly organic diet in the Quetico.  In reading the replies, I would say that that seems to be true.  And the fact that it disappoints him is unfortunate, but I think the comment about him needing to be more insulting was rather unnecessary. And I haven't had a Snickers bar in 35 years.   ;D

Yep, fair enough.

Quote:

But what you are saying and what Solotripper are saying is about "eating healthy".  To me, that is a very different thing than "eating organically".

Yes, it is SP2. I think that the idea that eating "organic" is the only way to avoid cancer or other diseases is well meaning, but simplistic.

I'm a big fan of the PBS science shows. I've watched many shows devoted to eating "healthy"/ avoiding cancer/ etc. A lot of good stuff but as of yet, not one all conclusive method of staying healthy or avoiding illness/cancers.

Something's are obvious. We were meant to move. Looking at a human skeleton/muscular system from an "engineering" perspective, and nature/God designed us to move, not sit which is what many of us do too much and to our detriment. Carrying to heavy a "load" for the frame is just as damaging be it the bed of a trailer/pick-up, or you knees/back of a human "frame".

Eating as close to what nature provided rather than processed foods is or should be a no-brainer as well. We have "mechanical" systems designed to chew/break down tough fibrous items and a complex digestive systems to process them.

Other things are not so obvious. Why do some people live long and healthy and do everything "wrong" according to modern science? Why do some cultures eat high fat foods and have lower incidents of heart disease and cancers associate with there consumption than we do?

Some scientists believe we all have the cancer "genes" in out bodies. Why do some people get it and some don't? Many think "stress", especially long term chronic stress is the "key' to triggering the cancer genes to mutate and start the disease process?

Lots of questions, not as many answers. I saw a PBS show where one of the cutting edge cancer researchers now believes that we'll never cure cancer becasue it's virus based and will always mutate new strains that resist the cure. He believes that cancer will wind up like HIV/AIDS, something that can be managed and controlled?

A good friend of mine and one of the smarted people I've ever met, is working on his PHD in Chinese medicine/Acupuncture. The Chinese believe that ALL health problems stem from the inner conflicts of the mind and that the disease is just the symptom of the inner conflict. They treat the symptoms, but believe the "cure" lies in finding why the person has that inner conflict and fixing that.

I had a very interesting conversation with him recently. As part of his PHD program they brought in a noted Western trained heart specialist to talk about cholesterol and heart issues. We all know/hear non-stop about good/bad cholesterol. Other cultures have diets that put their people on the high end of bad cholesterol levels, yet their overall rate of heart problems is still way lower than ours?

Anyway, the Chinese believe that "heat" their name for infection/inflammation is what triggers that plaque to clump together and cause the blockages in the artery walls that starts the heart attack/stroke.
They believe it's the stress caused by mental conflict that you might not even know about or admit too, that triggers the event, not the cholesterol levels? Completely against the common belief we all hear about from our doctors.

Well it seems this doctor said to my friends amazement that cutting edge research is leading many Western trained doctors to believe the ancient Chinese beliefs are not so crazy after all and that there is a growing body of research that is starting to show that stress, causes "heat", which starts the process of disease/cancers.

It will be a long road to change conventional Western thinking, but if you think about the people you know I bet you'll notice that high strung/worriers tend to be ill a lot more than easy going people, all other things being equal.

Do the obvious things, a little exercise/keep you "load" under your frames limits and eat as close to natural as you can. Don't obsess over things and do all in moderation.

I do believe stress is the key and managing it in a healthy way instead of a self destructive way is the key to keeping yourself as healthy as possible for as long as possible.

Jon wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 1:41pm:

The nut case checking back in. I eat a lot of fish when in the Quetico. It seems to me that being in the park is about as natural, non-civilization experience as one can have in the world today. I thought others might agree with me that dragging a lot of processed unhealthy food along would be a somewhat counter to that. I am surprised at the responses. I guess QJ participants are more into insulting each other than anything. I'll try to do more of that but it's not easy for some of us. Jon

If you could better define what you mean by 'organic eating' you might get better results.

Most trippers I know are the steak & potato crowd washed down with Schlitz, finish that off with a pie & coffee, finish that with more beer or scotch.  Not known for their healthy diets.

Most of us want to spend our time out there enjoying that feeling of freedom.  So a loaf of preservative laden bread beats baking bread when you should be fishing.

I'll admit to being a jaded sceptic.  If it goes in my mouth as food and out the other end as usually expected, it's organic.  If it passes through my system untouched I don't consider it organic.  So many things get labeled as 'organic' when in fact they're no different from the apples that are 1/3 the price - at least not as far as your body is concerned.  Organic in my experience is more marketing than anything. 
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I eat the same sort of food while tripping that I eat at home.  Less meat while tripping is about the only difference.

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[/quote]

;D

The nut case checks in again. I apologize to any of you that found my snide comment about cancer offensive. It was harsh. I am also sorry I did such a poor job of defining organic/healthy eating. For me that is a bit of a struggle too. I vacillate between the paleolithic diet and the traditional athletes diet. But I believe there is a huge difference between eating cattle force fed corn and antibiotics in a feedlot, and grass fed pasture raised beef. And there is a huge difference in the nutritional content of  vegetables grown in depleted soils with lots of anhydrous ammonia and those grown organically by sustainable agricultural methods. Organic farming rebuilds soils and delivers food that is nutrient rich. Everything has an organic alternative. A more expensive alternative but of all the things to be cheap about, why be cheap about the things that you put through your body? Again I apologize for all the offending I did by starting this thread, it wasn't my intention. Nor was it to evangelize my beliefs on this issue but I really thought there would be others on this same path and we would exchange information related to Quetico tripping. I know I have an attitude, sorry, it is the way I am. I really wish there was some way I could convince everyone to eat organically and exercise fanatically so they would all feel as good as I do, but it is impossible you just have to find out for yourself, or not.
Jon   

Quote:

I really wish there was some way I could convince everyone to eat organically and exercise fanatically so they would all feel as good as I do, but it is impossible you just have to find out for yourself, or not.

Jon,

I hope you take this in the way it's intended, but with all respect, there's a difference between being fit and healthy and there not always inclusive. Eating as healthy as possible isn't a bad thing, but being obsessed with it or anything for that matter isn't healthy either.

From you previous post I know your an Ultra Marathoner. Endurance athletes, especially the ones that are into the long distance events are like the Ferrari's of the sports world. Like a high-tech sports car that's finely tuned, it doesn't take much to put them in the "garage".

My friend that is going for his PHD in Chinese Medicine/Acupuncture is in business with 2 other guys that do "body" work like he does. They do different modalities than he does. One of his partners is an ex-pro rugby player, and the other is an Canadian track athlete who competed on the International/Commonwealth game level. They work with elite jocks to help them recover better and increase their performance.

One of their clients is currently training to make the Summer Olympics as a sprinter. He was on a previous team as well.

My buddy, is the guy pictured next to the Olympic sprinter with the needles in his thigh.
I'll send you a link in a PM, as I don't think it's appropriate to do so on the open forum.

Anyway, he has told me that working with world level endurance athletes, he has found that becasue the push their bodies to the extreme and have very low body fat levels, that one of their biggest problems is that they often are getting sick with every little illness that they come into contact with.

Body fat is the right percentage plays a huge part in keeping your immune system strong. Get to low and like that Ferrari your performance suffers and over extended time, you can actually damage your health long term.

I'm not knocking exercise, I do it in moderation myself, but when you say your a "fanatic" about it, then that sends up a red flag IMHO.
Training and peaking at race time is one thing, trying to ride that level of fitness for extended periods of time isn't the best for you long term.

Being fitter than most is great, but what about after your competing days are over?
Being fanatical about anything is a game that you can't win at least not long term.

Everyone eating organically would result in mass starvation and there's the cost involved.  Tell a single parent to triple their food bill without getting any more food for their family.  It's just not practical.

I haven't heard any credible proof that an apple with the 'organic' label is any more nutritious than an apple without the label.

We live in the First World.  We have choices and the right to enjoy those choices.  By all means enjoy your choices.

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Myth one: Organic farming is good for the environment
Myth two: Organic farming is more sustainable
Myth four: Pesticide levels in conventional food are dangerous
Myth five: Organic food is healthier

'Anhydrous ammonia' is just a fancy word for fertilizer.  Anhydrous means dry.

So we're back to worrying about the risks of finding hydroxylic acid in your tap water.


I consider nutrition while tripping to be very important.  More important than any other time.  I'm working harder (a lot harder) than I normally do.  I'm without easy access to help.  It just makes sense to eat well & get quality calories & nutrition.  Once I forgot to pack protein.  By day 3 I had an all-day headache.  Someone caught a fish and the headache went away shortly after eating.  Fortunately we caught lots of fish that year.  Ever since then I've been aware of the food I pack, making sure that each day has proper meals.

For those interested in what we eat and how that has been manipulated by the food industry, both Big Agriculture and especially the food processing industry, might want to read Michael Pollen's "The Omnivore's Dilemna."  This is a book of incredible insight and is extremely well written (i.e., a good read.)  Pollen debunks a lot of myths and is, himself, skeptical of the implications of the "organic" sobriquet.  Organic farming is increasingly becoming Big Agriculture and as Pollen points out, monoculture agriculture, whether organic or conventional, is problematic.  Growing 500 acres of organic lettuce is not fundamentally different from growing 500 acres of lettuce grown conventionally - it might be chemical free and that's a good thing but the issues run far deeper, as Pollen points out.  His chapters on corn and how cheap, empty calories have come to shape the eating habits of our culture (and the obesity, diabetes and heart disease that come with it) are eye opening to say the least.  No matter what your stance on food, I would say this book is a thought provoking must read and I highly recommend it.

Hi ST
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I am actually not all that successful at endurance sports. I was a heavy smoker from age 14 to 38. I quit smoking at half time of the 1st Vikings game in 1999. In the spring of 2009 I realized my 10 year anniversary of being a non smoker would occur at half time of the 1st Vikings game in the upcoming season and I thought running ten miles after the 1st half would be a great way to celebrate.  At the time I weighed 225 lbs and was kinda flabby. But running just melted the pounds away. I did a 10 miler in August 2009, a half marathon in Sept and a full marathon Feb 21 2010 in Florida. That day I finished my 1st Marathon and had my 1st ambulance ride 30 minutes apart. It wasn't a great idea to train in Minnesota on a treadmill all winter and do a Marathon in Florida but I survived. Then I decided I needed to learn to swim so I could do a triathlon so I go to the pool at the local high school at 5:45 AM for adult open swim and can now swim a mile in 50 minutes. Both my swimming(I am the slowest guy or gal in the pool) and biking have almost infinite room for improvement. Doing these things exposes one to lots of nutritional advice and I have sought information for a variety of sources. But this path my life has taken also gave me the confidence to return to the Quetico and I did last June with my daughters. I am now so anxious to return it is almost unbearable. So I joined this group to keep the enthusiasm going. But although I have run an ultramarathon (only one and it was excruciating 7.5 hours) I really can't be categorized as a world class endurance athlete. I just do it all to stay in shape and be able to Quetico trip. I guess I have Aspbargers according to everyone that knows about it and me. I have the same enthusiasm for healthy eating as everything else I do and so I brought it up, tactlessly per my usual modis operandi.
Jon

That was a very honest and interesting post, Jon.  Thanks for sharing that information, as it made everything you have said make a lot more sense.  I salute your good choices, and your enthusiasm for them.   :)

Happy paddling.

Thanks Spartan 2
I am trying to fit in here somehow. I enjoy reading all the posts. Happy paddling to you also!
Jon

Jon wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 1:00am:

In the spring of 2009 I realized my 10 year anniversary of being a non smoker would occur at half time of the 1st Vikings game in the upcoming season and I thought running ten miles after the 1st half would be a great way to celebrate.  At the time I weighed 225 lbs and was kinda flabby.

Jon, I salute you for ultimately getting your body in a more healthy state but the way you are going about it is definitely not healthy. Starting a running program by going out for a ten mile run while being kinda flabby is just so wrong.
Hopefully you are not addressing your nutritional health with the same kind of thinking.

Quote:

I guess I have Aspbargers according to everyone that knows about it and me.

I find your candidness very refreshing. Most people wouldn't be so open and honest about such a personal matter.

We may be a cantankerous lot here ( well some of us fit that mode), but for the most part we have others best interests at heart.

I know about finding that moment when you realize you need to start taking care of your body as well as most people take care of their car.

My/Our concern is that your descriptions/beliefs may be doing you more harm than good in the long run?
If you've excepted the fact/idea that you "might" have Asperger's syndrome, then you know that you should listen to others/experts before you get into something without looking at all the ramifications of what your doing.

I believe Moderation is the key to most everything in life, especially if your have the type of personality that makes that a challenge.

Intense exercise releases endorphins that are every bit a powerful as the pleasure drugs like cocaine/opium.
There's a reason that they call it " runners high". That feeling of well being after working out is a great one and can be highly addictive, in a good way IF your not abusing yourself long term.
Keep working out, eat "healthy", don't obsess on the little things and keep everything in moderation.
Good luck in your quest for a healthier lifestyle and paddling future.

Jon wrote on Apr 11^th, 2012 at 3:17am:

Thanks Spartan 2 I am trying to fit in here somehow. I enjoy reading all the posts. Happy paddling to you also! Jon

Well, Jon, "fitting in" here isn't as hard as you might think.  Believe it or not, this is a fairly accepting community--just look!  They have accepted me for years now!  And here I am, an almost-67-year-old overweight, out-of-shape, grandmotherly bow paddler, who hasn't been to the Quetico since 1980, loves the BWCA, and sticks her nose into forums where she often doesn't really have any business going.   ;D

And, you know what?  I have some good friends here.  Some that I have met in person, and some that are just cyber-friends.  They are good people, even though sometimes they are sort of "prickly" and tend to love a good argument, they get testy if you ask a question that has been asked before, and some of them think they have the only answer to most every question.

But if you need real help, they are there for you.  If you have a crisis, they will pray for you.  If you need a place to stay, some of them will even offer you a cabin.  There are, simply put, some amazing characters on this board.  (and I didn't choose the word "characters" entirely at random, either.)

Keep hanging around, and you will find that soon you are just one of the guys.   ;)  Relax.

Kerry wrote on Apr 10^th, 2012 at 7:27pm:

... might want to read Michael Pollen's "The Omnivore's Dilemna." ...

Pollan sometimes goes a bit overboard, but yeah, generally he is on the right track.

Even better than "Omnivore's Dilemma" (IMO) is the next book he wrote, "In Defense Of Food". Among other things, he takes aim at the the poor quality of almost all nutrition research - it's impossible to do good science in this field because it's impossible to control all the important variables. Quoting Gladys Block (Berkeley prof and guru in the field) "I don't believe anything I read in nutritional epidemiology anymore. I'm so skeptical at this point." So you shouldn't believe anything you read linking diet and health, much less things linking a meaningless "organic" label to long-term health effects.

I know the discussion has moved away from mercury, but David Lindley fans might enjoy this version of "Mercury Blues". The video is awful and the sound isn't very good, but it's the best I could find with the "extra" verse:
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[quote author=Joe_Schmeaux link=1332808015/43#43 date=1334457739]I know the discussion has moved away from mercury, but David Lindley fans might enjoy this version of "Mercury Blues". The video is awful and the sound isn't very good, but it's the best I could find with the "extra" verse:
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A Canadian chaperone on my first Q trip brought a Walkman. I poo-pood that sacrilegious thing for over a week but finally gave in about the middle of the second week because everyone said the guy brought some good music I should give a listen. So, I was introduced to Lindley via El Rayo-X while sitting on a rock, gazing at a vista in Quetico. I still remember the smile that confluence of events and tools brought to my face that afternoon. He was great live, up close and personal in small venues too.

Thread hijack warning !!

David Lindley is great live, I've seen him a few times over the past few years.

CBC Concerts on Demand has a full concert by Lindley and Manx available for on-demand downloading - no video, but the sound is good, and it's the whole concert (including Mercury Blues).

Joe_Schmeaux wrote on Apr 15^th, 2012 at 6:38am:

Thread hijack warning !!

Thanks for the reminder Joe!

Interesting man. Good to see he's still appreciated and doing well ... probably even eating organic cat food these days. ;)
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