I'm looking into the possibility of acquiring a folding canoe for future trips.  I'm looking into this option for two reasons:  long distance travel to canoe areas and fly-in trips where more than one canoe may need to be transported.  I and my normal paddling partner both paddle identical solo canoes so the hull-within-hull option is probably not going to work for fly-in transport.

Specifically, I'm looking at products made by Pakboat (US made from what I can tell) and Ally (Norwegian made).  Both have very similar designs except that the Pakcanoe has inflatable floatation tubes along the sides, while the Ally has a "floatation" mat on the canoe floor.  Both are "material on frame" designs.

I understand that the design has drawbacks including being less efficient over water than a hard-shell and the potential for bending the aluminum frame tubing.

Anyone with first-hand experience with either of these two choices.  BTW: I'm not particularly interested in "between" designs or kayaks of similar construction, mostly due to gear loading and weight issues.

Thx,
dd

look over on MyCCR.com -  several threads on PakBoats
and there are likely reviews on paddling.net

no direct experience, though some people I know used an Ally on an expedition to run some alaskan river - seemed to hold up well for them - the boats were either donated or discounted heavily for them

The PakBoat 15 can be had in solo or tandem setup - I've been keeping my eye on Craigslist for one for similar reasons to yours.  they flex over waves, so do pretty well in the rapids - think there was some issue wtih the PakBoat seat in past years that has since been addressed by the builder

but today and other times I've wanted to look at the pakcanoe website, its been down ? maybe some issue with the company ?

to me, pakcanoe looks better than ally.

What I've been comparing is the Ally 515 and the Pakcanoe 150/150T.  They are both approximately the same length (15.5 ft) and have about the same load capacity (650 lbs or more).  The Ally weighs in at about 41 lbs while the Pakcanoe is 48 lbs (each a couple of pounds lighter in a solo configuration.  Both can be had (new) for around $1850 (including shipping).  The only place in the US I can find that sells the Ally is in   (You need to Login or Register, while it looks like   (You need to Login or Register might be the best choice for a Pakcanoe. (Wayfair is the Pakcanoe vendor for Walmart.)  It looks like you might get a red vs green color choice with the Pakcanoe.

I've paddled locally with a guy that has a Pakcanoe 165 (I think it is).  It seemed more stable but slower than my Prism (the owner regularly stood up in it to check conditions down river).  He's used it on river trips to Hudson Bay and has tripped with Cliff Jacobson a time or two.

dd

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No clue, no worries - happy Friday.

I thought the Ally looked a bit fragile until I watched this   (You need to Login or Register.  (I don't treat my kevlar boat that way!)

dd

Hi Denton Doc, It seems I remember some discussion over on solotripping, a year or more ago, about how Cliff Jacobson used one of those folding canoes in, was it Norway? Anyway, the report was written up as an article in some canoeing magazine.  I don't know how you would set about tracking it down. The guys seemed to feel that the report was full of positive, super positive, better than anyone can imagine positive, Cliff reporting.
Still and all, despite all that, the thing may have something going for it.
Good luck with that,
Best Wishes, Rob

Oldie Moldy wrote on Jul 20^th, 2012 at 11:37pm:

It seems I remember some discussion over on solotripping, a year or more ago, about how Cliff Jacobson used one of those folding canoes in, was it Norway? Anyway, the report was written up as an article in some canoeing magazine.

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dd

Yep! That sure answers the description that I remember.
   

                                                                                            Rob

DD, My experience would be similar to Tony's, the other tripping Texas Dr.  ;)
Which is using it set up as a tandem. Reviews you've gotten are right on.

But the outfitter also paddled the same boat as a solo. Since the seats can be put about anywhere you want. His was slightly forward, but not centered like a true solo. Trimmed the boat with gear. Seemed to work great. Had a bit of a banana shape cause it flexed some. He used a kayak paddle for a better reach and no switching sides. The seats clip into the bottom support poles with some flat webbing straps to help hold it in place.

Besides Tony I have a number for the guy who's a rep for PakBoat and goes to Canoecopia for them. He did the Scandinavian Arctic trip last year with Cliff, Tom from Minn, and the owner. Also was my tandem partner on the Coppermine trip. Let me know if you want any help contacting him.

They paddle OK, better then people might think. Best part is how they load into the float plane. Giving you some more economical options getting there and back.

DentonDoc wrote on Jul 21^st, 2012 at 2:01am:

Oldie Moldy wrote on Jul 20th, 2012 at 11:37pm: It seems I remember some discussion over on solotripping, a year or more ago, about how Cliff Jacobson used one of those folding canoes in, was it Norway? Anyway, the report was written up as an article in some canoeing magazine.    (You need to Login or Register dd

The article referred to here appeared in a recent issue of Nastawgan, which is the magazine/journal put out quarterly by the WCA (Wilderness Canoe Association.)  The Jacobson article appeared not in the most recent issue but in the one before that.  Unfortunately I don't keep them otherwise I'd send you mine.  And yes, Jacobson was very high on the Pak Canoes that they had taken for their trip.  You could probably contact WCA and see if it is possible to get a back issue or they may have on-line access to past articles.

Today, I talked to the Alaskan outfitter that has Ally canoes for sale.  Unfortunately, they only had one model available and it was longer (and more expensive) that what I was looking for.  The outfitter also volunteered that Ally boat are hard to get in the US.  That pretty much matches up with what I've been able to find online.  That fact, coupled with discussion threads I've read mentioning lack of reliable customer service and difficulty in getting replacement parts has pretty much eliminated the Ally boat from further consideration.  (Also, I didn't really relish the idea of taking a rubber mallet with me to put the canoe together where ever I might land and need a canoe.)

Now, I'll just have be sure not to puncture the floatation tubes on a Pakcanoe when fishing and wear/install knee pads when I go over rough terrain when kneeling.At least I can give my lungs a bit of a workout when assembling it.  I guess the couple of extra pounds that this canoe weighs won't really make that much difference when portaging. 

dd

Doc,  Heck,if I were you I'd figure out a way to email Cliff- go right to the source.

monjon wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Doc,  Heck,if I were you I'd figure out a way to email Cliff- go right to the source.

Except I need to amend what I said earlier.  The article in in question (in Nastawgan,) at least the one I'm thinking about, wasn't written by Cliff Jacobson but by Allan Jacobs (you can get hold of him through the CCR forum.)

monjon wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Doc,  Heck,if I were you I'd figure out a way to email Cliff- go right to the source.

I'm thinking that the "Tony" mentioned in the above posts is probably a better source than Cliff.  If I got the story right, Tony may well have been where Cliff got his introduction to Pakcanoes.  In any case, Tony (in his Pakcanoe) is on the cover of one of Cliff's books (published in 2007).

But, I'll cut to the chase.  I put in an order for one today ... a Red Pakcanoe 150T.  (I was actually looking to buy a 150 solo, but they are no longer in production and not available from any source I could find on-line.  In any case, it is nearly identical to the solo version ... 34 inches wide at the gunwales rather than 32, with 2 re/movable seats rather than 1.)

I ordered from Wayfair who has them on sale with free shipping until the 26th.  Better yet, I found a 10% off coupon on top of the sale price ... and no sales tax.

It will be fun to play with, even if it doesn't pan out to be a tripping canoe.  I'll post a personal review when I have some time with the boat.

dd

Look what came by FedEx this evening:

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I wonder what this could be?

dd

Opened up the box and this popped out:

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(after about 2 hours).

dd

Very nice. Looks like a nicer seat setup then I remember.

FYI, Next time I travel in one of those I'm bringing a sea kayak hand bilge pump instead of a sponge. My "outfitter provided boat" had several small leaks. I added some I'm sure, but not all.
A bag full of zip-ties are handy for holding some of the poles in place for a long trip.

Jim J Solo wrote on Jul 29^th, 2012 at 8:07pm:

Looks like a nicer seat setup then I remember. A bag full of zip-ties are handy for holding some of the poles in place for a long trip.

The original seats were crafted of aluminum tubing that attached to the bottom rails with either a solid plastic or a nylon web pedestal seat.  That style seat is no longer in production.  (Customers complained of lack of comfort on longer trips.)

The zip/cable tie idea is now also listed in the assembly instruction manual as a good idea for "tuning" your canoe.

I just got off the phone with Pakboat/Scansports in Enfield, NH (producers of the boat).  Got to talk with Alv (owner/designer) a bit (he just got back from a trip with paddling opportunities in Norway and along the Danube) and Mike (who provided information on seats, mentioned above).  So, I got to order a conversion kit that modifies my current 150T model (tandem configuration) to a 150 (solo configuration).  The conversion kit adjust the hull slightly (5 different ribs) to make a  slightly narrower/deeper canoe.  I'll also get replacement rod extensions for the seat so it can be positioned nearer the middle.

Maybe I'll have new pictures with the alternate configuration by next week.

So, the long and the short of this is ... I now have essentially TWO Pakcanoes ...  I now need to spend some time practicing assembly to get it down to the advertised 30 minutes.

Hey.  Summer cabin fever is not so bad when you have little projects to get into.  (Today's temperature is only slated to reach 103; yesterday it was 105.)  Time to go see if the air conditioner has cooled off my shop!

dd

OK.  Now that the "boat" issue has been temporarily put to bed, I'm now faced with what to do about portage yoke.  There is no middle thwart (as you can see from the pic above).  In any case, when I run it as a solo craft, I wouldn't want one there any way.

So, I'm looking for one, maybe two, portage yokes.  One would be for tandem travel, which I could probably also use for solo travel AND potentially an additional one for solo travel only.  This boat doesn't have a  traditional gunwale, as such, but rather an aluminum tube that runs down a sleeve at the top of the gunwale.  I'm guessing some kind of adjustable clamp might work.  However, I'm thinking of potentially going a different route when running solo.

Question:  Has anyone tried one of   (You need to Login or Register, or any variation there of?  What did you think?  Does it cause any noticeable stress on the seat?  Pros?  Cons?  I'm thinking that if I go this route, I might also make it reversible and use it as a back rest.

dd

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the yoke in the link above looks well designed for tandem use ? except you'd have to add some padding

As far as portageing using the seat frame for support, I do that all the time with my 3 solo boats.  MR (45#) and Bell (29#) standard bench seats - I use my pakframes on the front cross piece - haven't noticed any problems with the seat frames, having done so for several hundred portages ?

my Wen Rendezvous (about 62# as rigged) with a bench seat, I use the factory seat mounted yoke - it soes not cantilever like the link/pic you posted, but rather clamps, on and both the front and rear cross pieces are holding the weight of the boat.  If you have a bench seat in your Prism, then you know how Wen mounts them, using a metal flange for the seat drops - that flange isn't "solid" and the boat flexes every step down - i.e., every time my foot hits the ground, the boat flexes out and back in - kinda annoying, and I don't particlulary like that setup - likely it would be better on a composite boat with a stiffer hull ? (mine's Rx)

but in any case, the seat frame itself has held up fine, though that yoke's only been used maybe a hundred times ?  maybe 50 portages and the rest from the car to the river.

you could give the cantilever type a quick test just using a couple pieces of 2x4 or whatever - see how much flexing you get when applying that pressure in two different directions to the framework - that would be my concern, whether lifting that rear seat crosspiece was a good idea or not.

assuming that that round thwart in center is solid enough to lift and hold the boat by, you could rig a packframe setup for it (minimal cost at thrift store and a couple of 90deg corner brackets from home depot)

or alternatively, have a backpack adjusted so that the top of the pack is high and just rest the round thwart on top of a lightly loaded pack ?

or have a transverse groove routed into the top of your head, and fit the round thwart into that for a true canoe hat?

Mad_Mat wrote on Jul 31^st, 2012 at 7:45pm:

or have a transverse groove routed into the top of your head, and fit the round thwart into that for a true canoe hat?

Oh.  You mean that spot where the wife keeps whacking me with the rolling pin!   ;D

dd

Mad_Mat wrote on Jul 31^st, 2012 at 7:45pm:

(You need to Login or Register the yoke in the link above looks well designed for tandem use ? except you'd have to add some padding

Yes.  I had noticed the listing at Kero Boats.  Quite frankly, their prices are too high.  I bought my brand new 150T for more than $500 less than they listed it for and my conversion kit (that I bought directly from Pakboat) was about 20% less ... and Pakboat also has the same yoke.

dd

Latest development ... I got a conversion kit today so I can convert the 150T (tandem) to a 150 (solo).  The conversion kit makes the hull narrower and slightly deeper.  So I now have "two" boats.

More pictures to follow.

Now that I have all the parts, I can take some measurements and proceed with the pursuit of a suitable portage yoke.

Oh.  This time I DID go to the source.  I talked with Alv at Pakboat/Scansport of Enfield, NH.  He did the design of the Pakcanoe, and before that the Ally canoe (before immigrating to the US from Norway).  And, yes ... he does indeed know Tony (referring to a recent picture of him on the wall above his desk as we talked).

dd

Five (gold) ribs out; five (silver) ribs in.  Now my canoe is over 2 inches narrower.

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You might notice the black rings around the sides of each rib.  Each ring comes in 1 inch sections.  These are used to raise/lower the seat position (to a maximum of 3 inches).

Seat now positioned between the two middle thwarts.

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Swap-out complete, I now have the Pakcanoe in 150 (solo) configuration.

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Now to get it on the water to see how she handles.

dd

Hi, My name is DD and I'm a "gizmo gear-aholic"

;) ;D

Hi, DD. I'm Jim J  8-)

-might be an appropriate' thought bubble',but seems to be a harsh remark to make before happy hour gains full speed. ...    "Strictly Gear"...? no? :-?

Jim J Solo wrote on Aug 12^th, 2012 at 7:14pm:

Hi, My name is DD and I'm a "gizmo gear-aholic"

Guilty as charged!

However, in this case there is some method to my madness.  I'm working on putting together a fly-in/fly-out trip for next season.  If my usual padding partner comes along, that means two canoes (since we both paddle solo craft).  Unfortunately, we will not be able to fly two canoes on a single plane. So there are two possible solutions ... take two different planes (estimated individual cost per flight would be in the ballpark of $500) or make one plane each way and take one canoe as "gear."  So, the foldable canoe solution could save me about 1/2 the flying costs. 

As for driving ... putting a canoe on my roof cuts my mileage about 3 miles per gallon.  Since I drive LONG distances to canoe waters, there is also the additional savings in gasoline.

All that is true ... but I'm still a gear junkie (besides, I needed a new toy to play with!).

Now on to a portage yoke solution.  Anyone ever try something like this?

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dd

Well, I dropped her in the water today and it looks like she is going to be both fast and quick.  She reminded me of my younger days when I drove an Alfa Romeo Spider.

True enough, the only load in the canoe was me and that adds a little to the existing rocker (the canoe will flex under a load).  So, it was easy to turn this craft ... a bit too easy.  My normal switch and hit pace is around 3-4 strokes before I change sides.  I was having to change after 2 strokes with this little baby as I paddled down river.  On the return trip, I switched to kayak paddle and this will probably be the ticket for running long, straight distances over lakes.

The one-way distance I covered was just over 4.2 miles in just under an hour with a rest break in the middle ... not so much a rest as a water break (it was 103 here today).  Keep in mind that I was paddling my normal "distance" stroke and not digging in to make rapid progress.  In addition, the current was imperceptible, so I believe it was contributing nearly nothing to my forward progress.  In fact, when I quit paddling, I would drift UP stream slightly under the influence of the wind.  (If I were to guess, I traveled up stream faster than down with the yak paddle, but I took more water breaks on the return trip so judging speed was a bit difficult.)

It will be interesting to see how the canoe responds with a trip load, but I seriously doubt that I'll ever get close to the 650 pound load capacity.

dd

...So what size does this thing pack down to?-and what's it weigh?

knafelc wrote on Aug 18^th, 2012 at 1:42am:

...So what size does this thing pack down to?-and what's it weigh?

The box it came in was 36 X 16.5 X 18.5 inches.  It will pack somewhat smaller than that, but I haven't broken it down to put it into its supplied travel bag yet ... I'll get to that by early next week.  The bag itself measures 20 X 11 X 39 inches with a top closure like a military duffle bag.

The solo configuration should weigh in at about 43 pounds; the tandem configuration goes about 45 pounds.  I'll eventually put it on a set of scales so I know for sure, but I'm thinking of altering the seat layout so it will slide on the rails.  Right now, I'd have to use a screw driver to move the seat, which I wouldn't be able to do while on the water.

dd

Nice! Having observed Lars  Monson(?) ccoss Finland with his pack boat,I'm guessing that the flexability of his boat might hamper /( slow down) concerted efforts to cross big,windy water in a hurry.

knafelc wrote on Aug 19^th, 2012 at 2:25am:

Nice! Having observed Lars  Monson(?) ccoss Finland with his pack boat,I'm guessing that the flexability of his boat might hamper /( slow down) concerted efforts to cross big,windy water in a hurry.

Yes.  That is a bit of a concern.  I'm also concerned about how she will track over long stretches of water.  Clearly "correct" load placement will be a key element of trips with this canoe.  Thankfully, I already load using a "3-pack" system which means some flexibility in fore/aft load shifting. 

At least will have it in my boat fleet over the coming fall/spring so I can get some "training" with this type of craft.

dd

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PakCanoe packed up for travel.  As it sets there in the bag, it weighs 45 pounds (and quite a bit more could actually go into the bag ... lots of empty space and gaps left).

As you can tell, it doesn't quite reach the height of a standard door knob (right) and it is quite a bit shorter than the 54" Sawyer bentshaft on the right.

It is a bit awkward to carry.  It would probably work better with a handle in addition to the supplied adjustable shoulder strap. BTW, the bottom of the bag is padded.

Take down time was less than 20 minutes; including sorting, folding, and banding the poles (and this was only my first run at it).  The next time should be quicker since I discovered that it was much easier to get the gunwale poles out of their sleeves if I used one of the seat support rods as a push rod.

dd

DentonDoc wrote on Aug 14^th, 2012 at 3:23am:

Jim J Solo wrote on Aug 12th, 2012 at 7:14pm: Hi, My name is DD and I'm a "gizmo gear-aholic" Guilty as charged!

I like. I get a kick out of your search for the better mouse trap. Even with all the qualifying smileys, text can still come across as a negative comment.
Indulge yourself, and please keep sharing.

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Well, she floats!  Actually, she handled pretty well.  However, I didn't get to try it out in swells and wind.  As you can see (which was typical of my time on the water) the lake was glass.

dd

BTW:  This is Eagle Nest Lake, New Mexico.  It sits at an altitude of about 8300 feet.  It is just a few miles from Angel Fire Ski basin.  Behind me (in the pic) is Wheeler Peak, highest point in NM, at an altitude of 13,161 feet.

We paddled them in big wavy rapids up north. The front flexes up instead of penciling into waves. Settles into troughs too, instead of getting the ends lifted.
Different, but it works.

Well Wayne, It is nice to see the project worked out, and your new found friend floats.

SunCatcher

I was just sitting here watching some of Les Stroud's original Survivorman series and the episode where he goes to Baffin Island in the Arctic Circle was on.  As he was building his second shelter and dropping the his canoe on top, "Pakboat" was clearly visible on the side ... even a red one, just like mine.  Funny I'd never noticed that before.

dd

This my first attempt to craft a portage yoke for the Pakcanoe.  With scant little lip on the gunwales, and what there is round rather than flat, I started looking for an alternative.  This one is a cantilever design that fits parallel to the web seat that will be placed near the middle of the canoe.  Its still a little rough, and I need to cut another pair of slots to aid in mounting pads, but at least its a start.

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You need to put a little notch in the cutout section to accomodate your seventh cervical vertebra (at the base of your neck):

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I used his design for my stripper's yoke and it makes a huge difference. And you won't need any wussy pads unless your canoe is over 80 lbs (which it isn't) or you're doing a lot of portages of a mile or more. ;D

Joe_Schmeaux wrote on Sep 26^th, 2012 at 6:58am:

You need to put a little notch in the cutout section to accomodate your seventh cervical vertebra (at the base of your neck):   (You need to Login or Register I used his design for my stripper's yoke and it makes a huge difference. And you won't need any wussy pads unless your canoe is over 80 lbs (which it isn't) or you're doing a lot of portages of a mile or more. ;D

Yeah.  I'd thought about that, but just hadn't gotten to it yet.  I wasn't sure I wanted to spend the time adding it to the mock-up design. 

Actually the slots were initially used as direct mounts to the seat.  This gave me a little left/right adjustment, but was just a little too far to the rear to result in good fore/aft balance.

I'm giving consideration to two other adaptations as well:  (a) adding extra material around the side cut-outs to add strength (they look a little thin to handle much bouncing along the portage) and (b) tilting the yoke part so that it is flat with my body when carrying (the current design is angled slightly).

Keep those suggestions coming ... its going to be a while until I'm back in north country for a canoe trip ... looking for little winter projects.   :)

dd

"The conversion kit adjust the hull slightly (5 different ribs) to make a  slightly narrower/deeper canoe.  I'll also get replacement rod extensions for the seat so it can be positioned nearer the middle."

Hey doc,

did the conversion kit include the rod extensions for the seat, or was that extra to the conversion kit ?