There is an interesting Article in the new BWJ about Canoe Trip Group Dynamics. Most of the writers tell a story about a particularly difficult trip member. While reading the article I thought to myself "I bet the Quiet Journey posters have some really great tales to tell about bringing people to the Quetico who just don't fit in there". For me the worst member was the sister of the best man in my wedding. I took most of my wedding party on a trip in 1984 to Kawnipi and Agnes. My best man talked me into bringing his little sister along. She was about 19 and Eric didn't clue her in well. About the second day it came out that she had a huge make up kit along and it included a blow dryer and a curling iron. Not being battery powered and without a place to plug them in they did not work well at all. She also shied always from any and all camp chores to the point that we had to write out work schedules. So bring it on, lets here some horror stories about your worst canoe tripping member and how to avoid bring he or she along in the future!
Jon

"I bet the Quiet Journey posters have some really great tales to tell about bringing people to the Quetico who just don't fit in there".

not me - I know better than to bring someone like that on any of my trips.  too selfish to allow my trip to get ruined by anyone I don't know well enough to know for a fact that they will be at least OK. 

I'll bite, or nibble. Not really horror stories.
I've had some disappointing trip partners. But I also thought sometimes I needed to change my approach too.

Needing to be more clear that we were sharing work around camp and I wasn't just being bossy.
Two guys were experienced campers, but canoe camping & fishing were new to them. They got jealous if they didn't catch fish like I did. Pouted if I didn't help clue them in, and thought I was bossy if I did. In later years they went together and each called me to complain about the other guy.
Another guy was great company but never did any camp chores either.

I also learned not to be too helpful and encourage trippers to look to themselves instead of me for help.
Sometimes I created a dependence. Instead of learning, I taught some to just expect me to be there every time for everything. My most recent trip I just handed the guys a map (he likes maps). Told them where we were going and let them go as slow as they pleased. They only got lost twice and found their way again each time. Great learning experience I thought.

It's also good to keep your trip options open and include others in the options available. Same guys on my last trip just couldn't go all day, every day. Even though they said they wanted to fish and see new country, they just weren't up to it. If we traveled, they were too tired to fish. If we stop to fish, they said they wanted to see more. I let them know I wasn't stopping them and they needed to decide what they wanted to do.

I'm sure others have had similar experiences. Nothing new. Some guys are one and done. Sometimes I just need to do a solo trip. Cause my casual pace, is someone else's race pace.

[sigh] Camp chores [/sigh]

Only one...a friend's wife who refused to get her feet wet.  Carried to and from the canoe on every portage.  Couldn't cook.  Couldn't do anything.  How they stayed married I do not know.

PhantomJug wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 2:48pm:

[sigh] Camp chores [/sigh]

OK PJ. Bad choice of words.
Change that to "help". I never asked him to do anything or told him to either. But I thought maybe once he would volunteer.

canoelover wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 4:23pm:

Only one...a friend's wife who refused to get her feet wet.  Carried to and from the canoe on every portage.  Couldn't cook.  Couldn't do anything.  How they stayed married I do not know.

I do that for my wife every time she gets in and out of the canoe and I won't let her near the kitchen.  Just sit and look pretty in your swim suit please.  Just thankful that she is with me.

Seriously guys.  Questions like this make me wonder if we haven't we lost our focus.  Hell, if I didn't bring people that were a pain in the ass my kids would never go - or my pastor - or my wife - or my best friend. . . . or myself.  I'm the laziest PIA that ever walked the earth.

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Jim J Solo wrote on Sep 28^th, 2012 at 4:41pm:

PhantomJug wrote on Sep 28th, 2012 at 2:48pm: [sigh] Camp chores [/sigh] OK PJ. Bad choice of words. Change that to "help". I never asked him to do anything or told him to either. But I thought maybe once he would volunteer.

No problem Jim.  Mostly referring to the original post by Jon.  Camp chores and work schedules?  Hopefully words I never utter while canoe camping.

Jon brings up an interesting point with reference to the curling iron and hair dryer.  I have taken some newbies with me and have been surprised with what they have brought.  One guy brought 3 full rolls of duct tape which were in addition to the small roll of duct tape that I brought.  I have considered unpacking everyone's pack and checking what they have in it.  Something similar to what they do at the airport.  I haven't done it yet due to a concern about privacy, but I am seriously considering doing it in the future.    Some packs I know aren't packed correctly because they are just too light for the size of the pack.  In other words, they have a lot of air in their packs.

I don't care what anyone brings if they can carry it. We'd try to educate first timers but what they did with that info beyond you get two group meals a day and expect rain and a little hardship was up to them.

I agree they are no chores with significant others but when friends, and especially friends of friends are unhelpful, after a few days that can become an unneeded and unwelcome source of irritation. Some add interesting fodder to campfire discussions or have a particular talent like cleaning fish or getting wood that's helpful and that's fine, but if their best contribution to the group is around the fire at night telling everyone: "Oh, and another time, I got so f'ed up..." all she got invited to in the future was the post trip party. She was more than welcome there.

The air in the pack comment struck me as funny. Some pack so tightly at home that they can't fit everything back in. Hey, here's a yellow plastic bag... Keep it. We don't need it.

I've had many moments before I became a solo paddler but PJ's pic of him fishing in the front of his canoe brought back one particular maddening moment.
I was in Maine and we were headed into a particularly nasty headwind on a big, long lake.
Shoreline was steep and rocky and after we committed to paddle, the only option was to get to first campsite available.
About 45 minutes in to paddle, it seems to me we were literally dead in the water. I was the lightest, so I was in the bow.
At some point I turned to see how my partner was doing and found him not paddling, laying back in his seat with his feet up on the packs :-?
I assumed he was taking a short break?
Turns out he had stopped paddling about 15 minutes after we started, because his arms were tired.
IF I could of reached him without capsizing, I would of choked him to death.
I started yelling and he made a half (*) attempt at helping and we finally made land.
I was still mad as hell and got even madder when he informed me that the reason he switched places with my usual bow paddler, was because he knew I was the strongest of the 4 and could do the lions share of the work, while he rode in style :'(
There was so many of them over our paddling days together, I look back and wonder how I out up with it.
I guess time does heal some memories because every year I/They convinced me it would be different this time. Shame on me ;)

Well, if I ever canoe camp with any of your guys, I hope I don't screw things up and make a mistake and your expectations go unmet.  At best I get publicly flogged and at worst, I might not make it home.

Geesh . . . so much for a relaxed vacation . . .  :P

I always thought I was a pretty good bow paddler and did my share up there.  I try.  But we just returned from a trip with Ho Ho and David and I learned that I am a weak paddler, and that Spartan1 is quite at a disadvantage with me in the bow, since it means that we travel quite slowly, at least compared to younger, stronger folks.

However, (and this is very important) Ho Ho and David didn't care at all.  They made it very clear that there was no hurry and that they were happy to do the trip at our speed.  We had a great time for seven days together (two of them very, very short, easy days) and we only tripped from Sawbill to Cherokee, then up to Frost and back again, but it was a great trip!  They had their 8-month-old puppy along and that added a real element of fun to the adventure, too.

Since Spartan1 has only had one trip partner in the last 41 years, I suspect I am his worst ever.  I would also hope that I am his best, and since he isn't going to come on here (probably) and say either, you'll have to just judge for yourselves.

I find people who can’t get outside themselves to be annoying and boring on canoe trips.   
You’ve all met someone like this.  They are everywhere! 

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It’s the guy who does the “one-upsmanship” thing.  He responds to any story with his own experience on the subject -- and it’s usually bigger or better. 

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It’s the guy who only talks about himself.   

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It’s the guy who never responds with a follow-up question to a story; something like: “Wow, I didn’t know that,” or “Gee, you must have been happy when that happened; literally ANY response that doesn’t involve his own story.   

Sadly, I think the art of listening is becoming a rare and disappearing skill.  Listening requires a genuine interest or curiosity in others.  It’s not a competition to tell your version of the same story.  It’s an interest in learning about another person life story. 

It’s hard to have a conversation with people who don’t know how to listen.  Having this kind of person on a canoe trip can make for a long trip. 

prouboy

The only people I have tripped with who would fit that moniker are those who really did not want to be there anyway.  Unfortunately, I did not learn of this mentality until we met at the Minneapolis airport.  In hindsight, her statement upon arrival at the airport, "Don't get used to this, because you'll never see me up here again" was not just exasperation at flights and travel stress, but an overall attitude that would only become worse as conditions fell off from ideal.  I should have put her friend and her back on the next flight home!

My philosophy on canoe trips is "let everyone do what they want"......
I could care less if I have to pick up someone else's slack. Just keep smiling and eventually it all comes back around. So you make the dinner AND do the dishes.......no bigey. Certainly not worth obsessing about.........maybe the person just needs some downtime without a bunch of pressures. If the guy is a schmuck cut him out next time.

I guess it is easy to say I'm not going to let someone ruin a trip for me when I have never had a lousy companion. I might sing a different tune  if I got saddled with a real dud. So far so good..... :thumbup

BTW......you have to keep an eye on Prouboy. He is very artful in the realm of conversation. I had intended to inquire of his life when we had some lunch together but before I knew what had happened lunch was over and I knew very little about him. Very clever fellow I must admit.

mastertangler wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 8:08pm:

BTW......you have to keep an eye on Prouboy. He is very artful in the realm of conversation. I had intended to inquire of his life when we had some lunch together but before I knew what had happened lunch was over and I knew very little about him. Very clever fellow I must admit.

Hmm...  my strategy was to keep MT talking and serving the delicious grouper and all the sides.   Fair warning about MT -- if he serves you food, prepare by fasting the day before so you can savor all the delicacies!

prouboy

jjcanoeguide wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2012 at 6:52pm:

The only people I have tripped with who would fit that moniker are those who really did not want to be there anyway.

A friend and I did two school trips with 16 or so people in the groups. Then the two of us went for a few years and one spring we got beat pretty bad. Then one year his wife and my gf decided they wanted to go along. We did everything to discourage them because we didn't want to be blamed if they didn't like it. We even took them in summer when the living is easy. Then for a few years the four of us did the same thing w/ others who invited themselves. We made sure anyone new knew exactly what to expect. My friend and I would do what we called 'recon trips' in spring to find the best.... Hey, it was an excellent excuse to do two trips!

Over the years my gf and I decided we enjoyed each other's company the most so we'd do spring trips with just the two of us. Years later same gf's kid (city kid) wanted to go. I was contemplating solos by that time so I took him as ballast one summer. The kid didn't know how to do anything but was open to suggestions. We took an easy trip but in the middle of it was a solid three days of horrible weather yet he never complained about anything whatsoever on the entire trip. Haven't seem him in 15 years but I'd take him again if he were to ask.

Over the years I've learned to choose carefully. Now that I only get one trip a year I don't want any disappointments and now with this site, that goes both ways.

I first started taking these trips with my brother in law. He liked to fish and so did I. Everything went ok, then my sons  came along one year. They love to fish too and were catching way more than my B-in-L. The weather was rough for a few days and towards the end of the trip he started in with unrelenting insults of my sons (in their face and getting very personal), focusing mostly on one of my sons. The other son defended his brother and so did I, then things deteriorated from there. We were actually considering leaving him with a canoe and the 3 of us would paddle out on our own in the other. But we sucked it up and finished the trip since he didn't really have much of a clue how to get out on his own and if he when he did make it out, he'd have no car to return home. Leaving him there by himself probably would have caused serious family problems on the wifes side. I've been going with one or both of my sons ever since, when they can make it. He has never been invited again.

We invite new comers on our cold fall trips, any one from +12 to over 80 as long as they understand what to expect and don’t need to be convinced to come along.  Most fit in and find their nitch on how they can help out.  I've seen some participants that won't do their share of the camp choirs, but a little peer pressure or chore schedule usually corrects the problem.  This year one of our regulars had some medical issues and couldn't portage anything.  We understood this from before the trip and everyone agreed to chip in and carried his stuff.  He made it up, as always as camp chef and chief bottle washer.  As long as everyone is doing the best they can, that's acceptable.

The worst participants are the whiners that complain about stuff that you can't do anything about (“it's raining” in a whiny voice). SNL Whiner family is the perfect comedy example, but not funny on a trip.  We generally drowned them on the spot and those that survive are not invited back.

starwatcher

starwatcher wrote on Oct 7^th, 2012 at 3:06am:

The worst participants are the whiners that complain about stuff that you can't do anything about (“it's raining” in a whiny voice). SNL Whiner family is the perfect comedy example, but not funny on a trip.  We generally drowned them on the spot and those that survive are not invited back.

I remember one afternoon that we were all doing that once back in the day. It was fun at the time. That particular day it lightened our spirits tremendously and still makes me chuckle. Could have been the day after the optimists stopped pointing out sucker holes in the overcast. :)


Heres a blast from the past:

Abandoned/Hitch Hiker on Bell Lake (Man Chain)
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That's a little drastic for sure, but just maybe the reason she was so helpful to her rescuers was that she had learned a hard lesson :-/
Still it could of ended very badly.
Would love know how that all played out?

I started visiting Boundary Waters / Quetico as a boy, with Dad & brothers. Got busy raising family and then gradually taught my wife to love the place like I do. We've tripped yearly for 16 years, still going strong for a couple of upper-60's campers. We've invited many people, but find that 95% prefer Holiday Inn. We enjoyed our daughter and her husband for a 10-day Quetico trip, but they ran out of steam 1/2 way through it, and won't return. If we ever get anyone else to share Quetico with, I'm going to be very careful to limit their travel to 3-4 lakes, and limit their time to 5-6 days. The stress of it all can unhinge the strongest person, because it's so foreign to typical daily life. We'd enjoy the company of similar-experienced people on future camping/fishing/canoeing/portaging adventures, but don't know how to find them. We're retiired in the K.C. area, enjoying 13 Grandchildren, and planning next fall's trip. Jack

Jack Ronning wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 6:30pm:

We'd enjoy the company of similar-experienced people on future camping/fishing/canoeing/portaging adventures, but don't know how to find them.

Jack,
You have found a good place to find canoe partners  right here.

Kingfisher wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 6:51pm:

Jack Ronning wrote on Oct 11th, 2012 at 6:30pm: We'd enjoy the company of similar-experienced people on future camping/fishing/canoeing/portaging adventures, but don't know how to find them.  Jack, You have found a good place to find canoe partners  right here.

Ditto.  This website is loaded with potential for you.

Typically, quite a number of members get together at the CanoeCopia event in Madison, WI, every March.  We often have both a website luncheon AND a website dinner at local restaurants.  Both are good opportunities to meet, greet, & size up prospective paddling party members.

Welcome to QJ!

Jimbo   8-)

This has been a greatly entertaining thread!  My (to be) wife labeled me "the canoe nazi" on the first (and overambitious) trip I took her on.  I seem to recall portaging to Trousers in growing dark, the first night out, following our dog's white tail...  Not good.   That was a long time ago, and she married me anyway.  I have mellowed out, I think (more just from age than from any quality of character...).
     Also, I remember -- and this is even longer ago -- when I worked as a teenage "guide" for scout canoe trips out of Moose Lake.  I always had groups with great adult "advisors", far as I remember.  Another guy, though, had an advisor that insisted the crew practice silent landings and sneaking up on other campsites...  Sort of confused the wilderness experience for reserve training, I think...

I was the group leader on a trip in 92 I think it was.  Anyway we were on Day two out of PP heading up the Man Chain.  On the portage from This Man to Other Man one of the hot shot guys got in my face and screamed at me.  I'm not going any farther.  He was pissed that we just didn't stick to Carp Lake for the week fishing.  Hated the portaging, but knew the trip as was planned several months in advance as a loop. 
So I said lets set up camp on Other Man and take a vote on it as to where, what we are going to do.
In camp that night the vote was 3 to 1 to continue as planned, Man Chain, Falls Chain, Kawnipi, Agnes back to PP in 8 days.  The Irate guy was pissed again upon loosing the vote.  After about 20 min of arguing, I stood up and wadded all the maps, then tossed them into the campfire and said.  I'm leaving at 6am in the morning and I know exactly where I'm going.  I suggest if you wish to tag along be up and ready.  Off to bed I went.  The next morning I had all 3 guys ready and willing to move on.
My father in-law on the rest of the trip kept asking if I had a back up map.  I lied and said nope, just keep on paddling. The Irate guy was his brother In-law.  I suspected a mutiny if they were given the chance.
qp

QP
I can just see you chomping a stogy and tossing the maps into the fire.
MagicPaddler

The very first canoe trip my wife went on with me was a trip organized through the Sierra Club.  The leader had written a decent book (which I actually read).  Participants were supposed to have some experience.  I thought it would be well-planned.  My mistake.

One poor gal ended up with an airplane carry-on wheelie.  Another participant brought blue jeans (I am no fan of cotton on a canoe trip).  But the biggest issue to me was the meal planning.  Nothing dehydrated.  Four and five pot prepare-from-scratch meals (often started in the dark), with subsequent clean-up.  Of course, all of that meant extra bulk and weight.  I often triple-portaged.

Fortunately, I was able to help my wife make good packing decisions, so she had what she needed and I gained a little credibility.  After that we planned our own trips.  We make water (don't carry it in food), and generally do one-pot meals.  We are not that fast, but almost always single-portage.

Took 3 buds on their first trip 10 years ago. I put the most gung ho guy in charge of getting the food since he was an excellant cook and I am not.   ...so what,s he bring? Frying oil,10lbs of potoes,and MREs!  We did manage 2 fish meals,but ...    :-X

qp,

That's a Man Card moment if I ever heard of one :thumbup
I should of done that a few times with the 3 guys I used to go with. Of course in my case I would of been traveling alone ;D

The worst I can think of is I joined a group that was going and we took two vehicles, she was in the same with me. As we approached the Forest lake exit she said ”aren’t we going to stop for something to eat?” We stopped so she could get something. Next she wanted to stop at the Wyoming rest stop so she could go to the bathroom. When she opened her mouth to ask if we were going to stop at the Moose Lake rest stop, we all beat her to the punch, by this time everyone wanted to get away from her. It was at this time I realized I was probably the one who was going to get stuck paddling with her. Everyone else had a paddling partner!

I did manage to avoid sleeping in the same tent as her the night before we left the landing. I slept outside under the stars to avoid her. It was obvious I was also going to be sharing a tent with her. I prayed it would not rain so I could continue sleeping outside. It was fall, so no worry about bugs.

When we finally started paddling it wasn’t as bad as I imagined, her paddling was so weak and ineffective I just paddled as if she weren’t there. She made for great ballast though, only a little over a hundred pounds so I placed a pack right behind her as a backrest which turned out to be good because she quickly tired and complained, no make that moan, about a sore back.

We were always the trailing canoe, everyone else had two able paddlers, and one of the guys who thought he was Bill Mason or maybe Paul Bunyon suggested that we switch partners. He quickly fell behind and when we had to paddle a small creek with a class I rapids she threw down her paddle and grasped the gunwhales so tight her fingers turned white. The front of the canoe caught a rock and they spun around and dumped. Now we had to listen to her whine about being cold. We made camp and put her to bed. I was now joined by the two other people from “our” tent who did not want to sleep with her. We plotted different ways we could kill her and dispose of the body without getting caught until we fell asleep.

When we finally got back to the take out she proclaimed “I’m never going on a canoe trip again” Everyone looked at each other thinking the same thing “we’re not ever going to ask you again” I finagled a way into the vehicle she wasn’t riding in on the way home.

I guess I didn’t learn my lesson, a few years later someone asked me to join their trip to fill out an empty spot. It turned out I ended up with the male version of this woman, but that is another story.

Over the years I have been in some canoe parties that had a "problem child" in their midst. It does not happen any more because I have learned to take preventive measures. If someone is new they are well instructed in what to bring and what to leave at home. If they look to be getting in over their comfort level an overnight near home should have them pulling out of the main trip. ;)

The travel distance is always adjusted  to keep the group happy. This thread has made it clear that an ambitious schedule puts many in foul moods when the pains become real. I have headed in with new trip mates that think they want to really put in the miles. After a few portages the reality sets in and the route is adjusted so all will have good memories. :)

Of course the best laid plans do not always work out. When a problem starts to fester it is time for someone to step up and protect the rest of the group. A stern face to face talk sometimes takes care of an annoying issue. I would rather face the consequences of a confrontation than put up with growing resentment among the group. >:(

The group member that bothers me the most; the one that wants to shorten the trip by a day or two. The preventive measure, don't get near the exit until the trip is over. ;)

Marten hit on something I've observed regarding the "last day." 

I used to plan our last camp so we had an easy 2-3 hour paddle out the next morning.  But we often experienced "the horses are headed to the barn" syndrome.  By noon on the penultimate day, the group begins to think, "Do we really want to set up and break down another camp, just for a 2-3 hour paddle in?"  That question invariably leads to "Let's push on out this afternoon.  I can already taste a cheeseburger and chocolate malt!"  Exactly what Marten mentioned. 

So now I plan the last night's camp a full day's paddle from the take out point.  I try to get over any big body of water, to avoid getting winded, but I am careful not to get too close, and thus avoid the "horse-to-barn" syndrome. 

prouboy

Sometimes you just never know.......

I broke my current partner and longtime childhood chum in on one of the buggiest, marathon paddle days with hardly no fish trips ever.......

Springtime in Algonquin......the black flies were really thick. We didn't even get the boat in the water before he was asking me "what are we going to do"? It was a very good thing that I had persuaded him to get the ultimate bug shirt........

Having never done a trip in Algonquin before I had underestimated the distances involved. The days were marathon....as in, "Gib, are we ever going to stop"?

The fishing was lousy......poor guy had had dreams of big trout on the end of his line but we caught very few indeed.

One rainy night we got pinned down by a bear which knocked our bags around and snuffled through our tent fabric. My unfortunate guest spent 1/2 the night sitting up with a hatchet in one hand and a "survival" knife in the other (I went to sleep).

In spite of it all.........toward the end of the trip I got the distinct impression I had created a monster and when I asked him if he felt like paddling a bit longer in the day he was gung-ho......

So you never know how folk are going to pan out. He could of went either way. Preparation was key.......without the bug shirt I think it doubtful he could of coped and adjusted as he tended to welt up rather easily. 1/2 way through the trip he went from being afraid of the bugs and not wanting to get his feet wet to hardcore.

If anyone is interested here is the trip report.....nice place
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