I am serious about getting up to Opasquia during the 2014 paddling season. I am starting a new thread so anyone else so inclined can be part of the endeavor. It is not going to be easy or cheap. The portages that served the outpost cabins suffered heavy wind damage last August. Wally mentioned in previous thread that shore line is not very inviting. Canoe visits are really rare up there, information is rarer. SOUNDS GREAT DOESN'T IT!! :D

Marten-

Well, you know I have an interest.  However, I'm more likely looking at a 2-week on the water trip than the month or so you some times go for.

But, if there are enough folks interested, I can see this developing into a shuttle-type trip where some folks going in can double down with others coming out on the same day, and cutting the costs a tad that way. 

dd

I might even be able to come up with a map or two:

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I assume that is a fly in and out.  Where do you fly out from?  Is there any place closer than Red Lake?

From what I understand, the drill is to fly from Red Lake to Sandy Lake (First Nation settlement) on a commercial carrier (e.g., Wasaya Airlines) and then take a float plane from there to the a drop off point in Opasquia.  The obvious problem with this is the commercial carrier won't be configured to carry a canoe (and, for those who have been following the tales my latest canoe acquisition, the reason that I bought a fold-up canoe for the coming season's fly-in trip -- otherwise known as "baggage").

dd

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I am starting this discussion early because there are a lot of things to look into.There is the plane to a runway at  Sandy Lake but then we would need to floatplane out to the park. Floatplanes all the way from Red Lake to Opasquia (185 miles). If enough others committed to the floatplane option the cost could be lowered by utilizing the plane going both ways. Also an Otter can carry two canoes on the outside and inflatable or pak boats on the inside. I have heard that there are a few canoes in the area of the park. Right now I have more questions than answers. No one is going to quote us an exact price for 2014 but we should know about what to expect.

I'm interested.  Will check in on this thread to see how Marten's questions get answered. 

prouboy

For those interested in a thumbnail sketch of the park, this link provides a brief overview of   (You need to Login or Register.  Included in this material is a google-style satellite map with one marker pin ("X").  This pin marks the approximate location of the main lodge of Big Hook Wilderness Outfitters on Central (a.k.a. Big Hook) Lake.  This is the only outfitter operating in the park and they operate seven satellite cabins on various lakes (only 5 of which are inside the park boundaries) in locations mostly in the south half of the park.  The pin mark (and the location of Big Hook) is on the eastern side of the park, which stretches west to the Manitoba Border.  If you zoom out on this map, you'll see a diagonal line marking the Ontario/Manitoba border, and zooming out a bit further, you'll see a large lake bearing the name "Island Lake".  If you draw a line from the location of Big Hook to the name "Island Lake" that line will roughly pass through the middle of the park.  (BTW:  If the name "Island Lake" sounds a little familiar, it is the northern terminus of the Manitoba ice road mentioned a few times in last season's reality show "Ice Road Tuckers.")

In general, the flowages run from south to north and east to west in this area.  As a general rule, if you pick a spot and look to see where Island Lake is on the map, the flow is likely in that direction.

I've also seen references to fish species ... predominantly Walleye and Pike, but I also see Whitefish and Perch mentioned.  Anyone know if there are any lakers in this area?

I've also seen references about OPP having the largest concentration of wolverines in North America.

dd

Man, I wish I had even two weeks I could spend on a trip like this.  But I don't think there's any way I can hit a 2014 retirement date since I don't play the lottery.

I will be one of the eager readers/listeners when the tale is told, for sure.

Martin and DD-keep me in mind. I may check with a friend who I know would love to do this as well.

Hey folks, just to update everyone a little, I am currently working on a price that would allow paddlers to take advantage of a scheduled "back haul" system.  If we can make this work, the costs would obviously be greatly reduced, although it's still a very long flight from our base in Red Lake.

I don't see going to Sandy Lake as an option as you would still need a floatplane to take you from Sandy into the park. 

In checking out the rates on scheduled flights from Red Lake to Sandy Lake, you're looking at a cost of over $600 / person return and you would not be able to bring your canoe on board...yikes!

I'm also looking at options of having solo or tandem canoes waiting up there which could also reduce cost as there would be no need for external load.

I'm confident I'll be able to secure a rate that'll work for everyone and it'll be a direct flight.

I'll post again when we've figured out some rates.

Harlan

Martin, Not to state the obvious, just an FYI. You mentioned 2 hard shell boats on the outside of an Otter.

I've been in an Otter with 3 Old Town Discos inside, with 6 passengers, plus the 2 pilots. None of the boats needed their thwarts or seats removed to nest as I recall.

We were full, but OK. Even better, everyone using bag boats like  DD's would allow for more passengers  :thumbup
I've gone that way too and you can easily do 8 passengers and gear. Better for adjusting the load in the plane.

The guides/pilots were careful the load wasn't tail heavy when we used hard shell boats..

Sounds like fun.

There are no Otters' running out of the Red Lake region with approvals for carrying canoes as external loads. Also, at 293 Km (180 miles) or there about's an Otter would be very, very expensive.

Harlan

Marten wrote on Jan 31^st, 2013 at 11:46pm:

I am serious about getting up to Opasquia during the 2014 paddling season. I am starting a new thread so anyone else so inclined can be part of the endeavor. It is not going to be easy or cheap. The portages that served the outpost cabins suffered heavy wind damage last August. Wally mentioned in previous thread that shore line is not very inviting. Canoe visits are really rare up there, information is rarer. SOUNDS GREAT DOESN'T IT!! :D

Marten -

I'm interested in doing much the same kind of trip as DentonDoc.  I'll be looking forward to seeing what Harlan can come up w/re: logistics & costs.

Do you suppose the trees are such to make it suitable for hammock-tenting? 

Hey, new park... new potential for practical jokes, eh?  I've long wondered what I was going to do with that small bottle of "wolverine scent" that I inherited from my great, great, great grand-pappy, the renown voyageur, cartographer, & explorer... Mssr. Jacques Le Strap.  I'm told that boy could trap darn near anything.

I'll be following developments on this thread.  I AM interested.

Later,

Jimbo   8-)   

Solotrip wrote on Feb 8^th, 2013 at 2:51pm:

I'm also looking at options of having solo or tandem canoes waiting up there which could also reduce cost as there would be no need for external load. I'm confident I'll be able to secure a rate that'll work for everyone and it'll be a direct flight. I'll post again when we've figured out some rates. Harlan

Harlan -- thanks for working on this!  I'm still working on a trip to WCPP or the Bloodvein this year.  Will you be at the Midwest Mountaineering Outdoor Expo in April?

prouboy

Ok, so I've figured on some numbers of what you can expect to pay for a trip up to Opasquia.  These might fluctuate a few dollars here or there in 2014 as I have idea what fuel prices will be then, however for budgeting, here you go....

For a flight from our base in Red Lake, for up to 3 people, 1 canoe (external load), to East Lake, pick up another paddler(s) and a canoe and head back the cost would be $3,048 + 13% HST, roundtrip.  If this were to be just solo paddlers you can divide this by 2, so it'd come out to $1,524 + 13 % HST.  If there were tandem paddlers, then you can just divide up by the number of paddlers.

It is a staggering 293 KM (180 miles) trip each way to the park, so you can surely understand the expense involved.

If, as Martin first suggested, we can get a routine down with paddlers coming and going, sharing the costs, I think there would be some interest for paddlers getting up there.

Cheers,

Harlan

Harlan -

Thanks for doing the ground work for this.  Your numbers are pretty much what I expected.  Are we talking about 3-3 1/2 hours flight time one way?  (Would the flight crew provide refreshments?  ;D)

And ... do I understand correctly that permits and camping fees would be more like accessing crown land since OPP is a non-operating park?  Certainly, that expense is nominal when compared to the cost of the flight, but if that is correct, what would be a ball park number, per night.

Again ... thank you so much!!!

dd

So about $860/person if two are going in, while two are coming out. What about the first two going in, or the last two coming out? It would seem that someone would have to bite the bullet on these costs, on each end.
Harlan, please let us know if you find it feasible to send a couple older canoes up there as rentals.
Thanks.

Jimbo,

Yes, there are plenty of suitable trees for hammock sleeping in Opasquia. I have searched the woods for blueberries many times on several of the lakes over the years and you can find plenty of sleeping sights for hammocks.

Seeing as I have not seen any canoeists in the 25 plus years I have been there ... there aren't any cleared campsites that I know about. I have seen a few old Indian hunting camps back in the woods on several lakes. I just followed a few shoreline paths and a few turned out to be old tarped log cabin camps. Most paths were beaver or moose trails.

I will be up on South Lake the 2nd week August ....8/10 - 8/17/13 fishing with my buds. If you plan to go then ... stop in for a few beers and supper if you like.

Lakes are stained and have plenty of walleye and pike and perch. I have not caught a laker.

I will be at Canoecopia and we can visit Friday and/or Saturday night.

Mike (Wally13)

Thanks for the info, Wally!  I kind of thought that would be the case as I spent a good bit of this past weekend eyeballing every photograph I could find of the area.  I saw plenty of trees.  My two trips into Woodland Caribou Park mostly gave me confidence that tree cover in Opasquia would be adequate.  There WERE a few areas in WCPP, however, where trees were pretty thinned-out & scraggly looking and one might have been hard-pressed to find a solution that didn't involve large rocks (a hanging arrangement I haven't tried, as yet).

If I go up to Opasquia it will most likely be as part of this 2014 initiative that Marten is rolling out.  2013 would actually work out better for me in some ways but logistics & costs dictate that I coordinate my plans with others headed in that direction.

I look forward to discussing Opasquia & other canoeing adventures at Copia in one month!

Jimbo   8-)

A big thanks to Harlan at Red Lake Outfitters for getting us a ball park price estimate on this endeavor. The final costs for each paddler will now have more to do with how efficiently we can use each leg of these flights. It is evident that solo boats will incur the higher costs. If it would help the flow of things I have a Wenonah Spirit II in Royalex that could be used on an early trip and left up there for others to use.

I plan on being there for about a month in July or August. In the past I have had partners switch out with new recruits mid-trip. There are a lot of options open to us.

PortageKeeper wrote on Feb 11^th, 2013 at 1:50am:

So about $860/person if two are going in, while two are coming out. What about the first two going in, or the last two coming out? It would seem that someone would have to bite the bullet on these costs, on each end. Harlan, please let us know if you find it feasible to send a couple older canoes up there as rentals. Thanks.

May I suggest dividing by shares?
# paddlers / total cost

This way the first or last isn't hit any harder than the others. Some may want to stay in longer too.

I've got no skin in this. It's just worked for me in similar situations.

Agreed. If say six paddlers in three groups would commit, split it all six ways.
Also, if Harlan did want to get any canoes up there and leave them, maybe he'd swing a deal where the persons paddling these the first time would get free rental if they foot the bill for getting them there. Both parties win... sort of.

Hey everyone,

Yes, still lots of questions, and yes, the would be the cost to get the canoes in and out and that would have to be passed on to the paddlers willing to do a trip.

I should also note that before we put the cart before the horse, caching canoes up in Opasquia may well prove to be difficult so I need to ask some questions of Ontario Parks / MNR first.  I will pose this question to parks staff and let you know what I find out.

Cheers,

Harlan

Thanks to everyone who have thought this through to this point. I am VERY interested! Will be anxious to see what develops.

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I decided not "degrade" the resolution for this sample.  Some of the notations on the map:

red flag -- confirmed campsite
blue dot -- probably campsite
"slw" -- shoot/line/wade
P -- portage (length unknown)

dd -

I've probably had no better than 50% success rate finding WCPP campsites where they allegedly existed on various maps.

Opasquia?!?!?

I'm betting < 25% hit rate!

As for me, I'm planning on swinging from the trees... there are bound to be enough suitable shelter prospects that way.  For those w/true tents?  Well, your symbols DO provide places to start looking for campsites, anyway.

Thanks for your work on this.  At least rapids, waterfalls, & such aren't likely to change much over the years!

Jimbo   8-)

Jimbo wrote on Feb 15^th, 2013 at 10:04pm:

I've probably had no better than 50% success rate finding WCPP campsites where they allegedly existed on various maps. Opasquia?!?!? I'm betting < 25% hit rate!

My guess is that many of the WCPP campsites were originally source from something like the legacy forest project (the basis of many on PCD that are not present).  So, I understand your skepticism.

The good news is that the ones marked on my sample didn't use anything like a legacy source for the campsites ... they were marked on someone's travel map ... red flags are where they actually camped and blue dots are those that were identified during travel.  (Red flags are accompanied by number of tents that could be placed there--all 2 or more; some blue dots are marked as "nice" or "good").  That's not to say that some might not have been obliterated since then; I've seen such evidence on several WCPP campsites.

The sample also includes one fish symbol--they were used to mark where walleye or pike were found.  (I didn't bother including wildlife spottings.)

dd

I have been enjoying the ease of moving around on this G4 map. East Lake has so many days of paddling on its various tentacles. A few portages around some rapids and many more days of paddling on long narrow waterways lay ahead. Plans for Opasquia 2014 are moving along well.

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I did a little research on Opisquai a few years ago and while for a number of reasons I decided to forget it for at least a while, I did discover an outfitter serving that park -   (You need to Login or Register and talked with them by email.  My recollection is After the second email to one of the family in the business, the main lodge had a large fire and they were not able to respond for quite a while.  I thought at that time they could arrange a flight from Red hook for around $1000 for my son and I - round trip - but foggy memory.  I did find lots of maps and info and some nice appearing routes.

I guess until I've seen next to everyplace in the Q, I'll just wait, but the remoteness is appealing and if you fish, it seems like an amazing place.

Any more progress on nailing down prices or dates for this trip?

Might be a good idea to get some approximate dates so others can plan. I know that it's a ways off, but it will creep up fast in the end.

Is Viking our best bet for air travel? Who flies for Big Hook?
What are their canoe rates? I'm only asking in case someone has already checked rates. Otherwise, I'm fine with emailing them.
Would also be nice to have a list of people whose plans are definite, and definite-maybe's. So far, I AM IN. Put me on the list.
Do others have thoughts of what route they would plan? Obviously there are a lot of interconnected waterways that one could paddle with presumably fewer portages, but it'd be nice if peoples plans were in the open so others could shoot off in other directions for the sake of gathering more info about the park.
Ok, so I am obviously excited here and maybe jumping the gun a little. It just sounds like a great trip and I am anxious to plan!
Joe

Solotrip -

DentonDoc & I hope to connect directly w/Solotrip late this month at the Midwest Mountaineering Show.  There may be more to discuss then.  Harlan was good enough to share with me some of the parameters of his being able to make this happen while we visited some at CanoeCopia in March.  Sounded like it was going to be a major PITA & expense for him to get special park permission to cache canoes in Opasquia.  The option that (at least a month ago) sounded more likely was to secure solid commitments, dates & upfront money from 6-10 paddlers; that would enable him to make things happen.  That option involved the "re-usable" tandem which goes in with the first team & comes out with the last.  As I said, I hope to have a better handle on logistics by the end of this month.

Re: Big Hook, that would be a separate deal from Solotrip entirely.  The picture I get is there are some competitive  commercial "terrritorial" issues that would prevent collaboration of those two potential providers.  I suppose there is value in someone approaching Big Hook re: what they might be able to do... especially if we are able to put forward the prospect for 6-10 paddling customers.  We have at least one QJer who uses Red Hook just about every year for basecamp/cabin style "American Plan" fishing trips.  I'm sure he could put us in touch with someone who can "negotiate."

Before I go there, though, I want to hear what Harlan comes up with.

I suspect once we see a couple plan proposals sketched out that we'll begin to rally around one or another and start talking firm dates & commitments.  Let's all be wary though.  The BEST way to ensure a commitment will be FIRM (& we all want that!) is for money to hit the table.

Joe, I share your eagerness for this adventure!

Jimbo   8-)

Anyone that has plans to be in on this could post their wishes here. I am assuming that this thing will take up half the summer. I hope to spend 4-5 weeks up there.

I did E-mail Big Hook Camps about their canoes but received no response. I would like to talk to them but have not called.

If we have a list of committed paddlers and their preference for dates and duration  of stay we can start more planning. Once we lay out a schedule for 4-6 weeks we would have a better grasp on the final cost. It is going to depend on how efficiently we can use each leg of the plane flights.

If we can have three paddlers on every flight it will be cheapest. This would allow the common canoe to be used and another could be taken in and out on each trip. Pak canoes will add to the versatility.

There is so much that can be done to make this work easier. I would like to see common info packets that each group could add details to and leave for the next group.   

I have permission from my wife to go! 
I can handle either end of a canoe but prefer the front.  I also like a solo canoe.  For a trip like this I would prefer a 2 week trip.   I like sleeping in my hammock but if some one has tent space available I would leave my hammock at home to save weight.   I am flexible about the trip.  What else do you need to know?
  Does anyone have a outfitters form we could all fill out so Martin would have all the information in a uniform format? 

Joe -

I'm hoping to meet up with you and Steve on Friday, Apr 26th at the Midwest show.  I know that both Harlan and Claire plan to attend, so maybe we can all (including Jimbo) get together at some point during that weekend. 

Although I haven't coordinated any of this with Jimbo yet, my plan goes something like this:

My preference would be for mid- to late-July put-in for a 2 week "on-the-water" trip (but being retired, I have plenty of flexibility on this).

My understanding is that East Lake would likely serve as an operational hub for this adventure.  With East Lake having in excess of 20 miles of "straight line" paddling (you'd actually make something like a "J" route) before hitting the class 2-3 rapids headed west toward Cocos or Joint Lakes, I'd likely spend much of my time exploring that lake and the multitude of side channels.  If I decide to do an out-and-back headed west, I'd first check out the 80 rod "portage" south of the rapids.  Going to the south end of East Lake, I'd be interested in checking out the abandoned Native American fish camps, but would not likely proceed any further south than that due to what I've seen labeled as a "heavy use" area in the lake just beyond (and just beyond that you get into an area that is served by the main lodge of Big Hook Outfitters).  There is also a glacial moraine that approaches the shoreline in this area that might also be interesting to see.

I have a solo pakcanoe which should facilitate things a bit, since it can be loaded as "gear" in the plane.  I'll insure its efficacy for such a trip with a fly-in/fly-out trip to WCPP this year. (Actually I can configure it for a tandem, but I don't believe it suitable for that purpose for anything longer than a weekend-type trip.)

I'd be OK with a group of 3 (seems the cheapest way to do it) where a tandem canoe might be strapped on the floats with an opportunity for each to swap positions in the available water craft.

I do fish, but enjoy exploring at least as much ... and I don't have to make a lot of miles to have fun.

dd

I have 12 that want in on this trip. I have myself, Denton Doc, Majic Paddler, Prouboy, Bogwalker, Jimbo, Northman, Mike Kinz., Hogan, Bob B, Portagekeeper and Waleswalker. Have I missed anyone?

I drew up a few diagrams to get an idea of how scheduling would work. I assumed that 2 weeks would be what most would want. Mike Kinz. and I are wanting longer.

With the tax added Harlan's estimate is about $3500 for each round trip up to Opasquia and returning to Red Lake.

If there were only two paddlers going up then they would have to pay for two $3500 flights. Trip cost for each $3500.

If there were 8 paddlers and they went up and back 2 at a time it would require 5 round trips with the plane =$17500
Divided 8 ways would be about $2200 per paddler.

If we used a common canoe taken in on the first trip and someone had a Pak boat inside the plane we could get 11 or 12 paddlers using 5 round trips=$17500
Divided by 11 it would cost each person about $1600

Allowing for two weeks between flights it would take 8 weeks for the 5 flights. Depending on final commitments this time span will vary. It would not take many more paddlers to fill the season.

I have used round numbers but look them over and see if I have missed something.

You missed Joe (portagekeeper).

And, you don't necessarily need 8 weeks if some of the trips overlap by a week (might have more than 1 party in the park at a time).  However, this does complicate scheduling just a little.  Given the overlapping scenario, it would even be possible for a few 1 week trips.

dd

I avoided overlapping trips because I think it would create more half-full or empty hauls and those cost would have to be shared. With more paddlers it would work but we may have to hire a bookkeeper.

Marten wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2013 at 3:37am:

I avoided overlapping trips because I think it would create more half-full or empty hauls and those cost would have to be shared. With more paddlers it would work but we may have to hire a bookkeeper.

Agreed.  In addition, the single tandem canoe awating the next crew would also have an additional level of complication.

In the end, simple is better.  (But should it get beyond that, I believe I have ample tools at my disposal to deal with the problem ... and my personal time is not really an issue.)

dd

DentonDoc wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2013 at 5:05am:

Marten wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 3:37am: I avoided overlapping trips because I think it would create more half-full or empty hauls and those cost would have to be shared. With more paddlers it would work but we may have to hire a bookkeeper. Agreed.  In addition, the single tandem canoe awating the next crew would also have an additional level of complication. In the end, simple is better.  (But should it get beyond that, I believe I have ample tools at my disposal to deal with the problem ... and my personal time is not really an issue.) dd

Thanks DD, This is a group project and all input and assistance is much appreciated.

Marten and all,

       I am in with Joe (portagekeeper) assuming the logistics and cost work out. Joe and I prefer a later time which seems to fit with what has been discussed already by others. Ideally we would enter after 8/15 and it could be a little later for a 10-14 day trip.

     I am also planning on being at MWM with Wayne and Jimbo to talk to Harlan-Joe is thinking of joining us.

    As we get closer, we get logistics figured out and we get people to commit we should consider deposits as a show of good faith and commitment. It won't do any of us any good if people talk about going but never seriously make the commitment-it could derail the effort quickly.

Bogs

It occurs to me that we may be at the point where we may want to share some (personal) information that we might not want broadcast to the world.

I suggest that we might want to move this into a more "background" mode.  In the past, when traveling with others widely disbursed across the country, we've used e-mail to keep in contact and share information.  However, this (todate) has not involved quite the number of people expressing interest in this trip.

I'll set up an e-mail distribution list to share if among those interested if we feel that is the way to go.  I've also setup a private group on facebook ("Opasquia 2014") in anticipation that we might want to go that direction ... although it looks like many of you don't have a facebook presence.  Of course, we could do something more elaborate, but as expressed above ... "simple is better."

I've also chatted with a few of you that I know more on a personal level.  In those discussions, all have been in agreement that we need to establish a "level of commitment" before we begin to establish more concrete plans.  In those discussions, "putting money on the table" has frequently been expressed as a means to establish that commitment.  (I don't think I have to elaborate further to establish what this means.)

Thoughts?  Suggestions?

dd

I now have 14 that want in on this trip. I have myself, Denton Doc, Majic Paddler, Prouboy, Bogwalker, Jimbo, Northman, Mike Kinz., Hogan, Bob B, Portagekeeper, Waleswalker, Nctry and Farmer. Have I missed anyone?

I'm fine with email (as so far I have successfully eluded Facebook), but I do think that some chatter should happen here as well. If people start backing out, others need to be kept aware of what's going on... i.e. we may need to fill some spaces. In trying to arrange portage clearing trips for ten years, I have found that many CAN back out before the go date. So far I am seeing costs of roughly $2000 - $2500/person for the trip that Bog's and I want to take. When people see the numbers, some will likely get rattled.

I agree that we will need to start getting firm commitments. Lets see what you that are attending the Midwest show come up with.

I want to spend at least 4 weeks in Opasquia. Whether I am solo or tandem does not matter. July 1 would be the earliest that I could start but am free until fall after that. I like to wander and seek out routes.

The trip schedule would work most efficiently if the first trip up and the last one up and out had a Pak boat in the plane.

I believe my group will solidify to 3 ... DentonDoc, Jimbo & MagicPaddler.  While we each have other partners typically, we have all (collectively) traveled together.  We will most likely travel as a group with a tandem and a solo (and previously, we individually have both tandem and solo time).

dd

With so much interest being shown I felt it was only right to contact Big Hook Camps so they would have an idea of our intentions. They are really interested in talking with me in the morning. They have two canoes up there. If this can be worked  out it could open up Opasquia for more canoe use in the years to come.

Martin
Among other questions to ask them is what kind of canoe (95LB grumman square back).  Other words are they suited for portaging?
MagicPaddler

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 11:05pm:

Martin Among other questions to ask them is what kind of canoe (95LB grumman square back).  Other words are they suited for portaging? MagicPaddler

I am going to make a list of questions, any others?

Marten wrote on Apr 5^th, 2013 at 12:57am:

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 4th, 2013 at 11:05pm: Martin Among other questions to ask them is what kind of canoe (95LB grumman square back).  Other words are they suited for portaging? MagicPaddler I am going to make a list of questions, any others?

Pick and choose those that might be appropriate based on the direction the conversation goes:

What locations can be used for drop-off/pick-up? Can two different ones be used by a single party?

Will they cache a canoe at a specified drop-off? Can it be left at a different location?

Are they open to fare only fly-ins? (no canoe rental or other outfitting support needed)

Can they arrange direct flights from Red Lake or will they route all flights thru Sandy Lake?

Any river areas that are just not navigable or otherwise impassable?

General condition of portages that are present.

Any large areas of recent fire damage?

Any restrictions on briefly existing park boundaries? (max an overnight; e.g. Island Lake, MB)

I guess for longer term trips ... will they re-supply or pre-position supplies?

Level of use by canoeist (i.e., non-fish cabin guests) and first nation folks ... higher use areas, if so.

Time permitting ... pictographs and other POIs.  Restrictions on accessing sensitive areas (e.g. archeological sites).

Fish species beyond walleye, pike and perch.  Are species widely distributed in the park or in pockets?

This is what I found out from Steve at Big Hook Camps.

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I told him we were only interested in transportation and canoe rental.

Flight cost using wheeled aircraft to Sandy Lake and then floatplane to their base camp on Central Lake where the canoes are kept and back to Red Lake. $500

He told me the canoes weighed 70 lbs but knew nothing else about them. He was not the one who usually deals with the canoes but thought the rental was $40 per day.

Their operation is set up with all guest arriving and departing on Saturday. Longer canoe trips would need to end on a Saturday.

They charter all the flights and so the charter has rules and limits. 100 pounds per person, $1.75 per pound for each additional pound for the first hundred over the limit, then higher.

They have a small plane that they use for camp checks but it is not used commercially. This means that all trips would start and end at Central Lake with no other options available from them.

I mentioned that some might be bringing in Pak boats in a duffle bag. That puzzled him but I explained that that was becoming more common.

There is fire damage in areas because they are not put out.

There is a 50 mile loop that goes west from Central Lake and goes through the top of South Lake and then NW up to West Lake before returning to Central Lake via the south part of East Lake. Portages are not maintained but he said this was a known route.

The many miles of the top of East Lake are very shallow. He said most is about 3 feet.

He is a little concerned about a bunch of paddlers coming in. There seems to be some lakes that he stays off of in an understanding with some First Nation people. We were going to get more of this info by E-mail later. For the first month after ice-out and again after Labor Day the First Nation are using the waters the most. For the summer months activity is at the lowest level.

There are no known Pictographs.

Walleye, Northern and Perch are the only fish.

Good information.  Some of the flight costs are confirmed on their website.  There is a photo of one canoe on their facebook page ... a 16 foot tandem made by SportsPal (its listed weight is 69 lbs and doesn't look to have an integral portage yoke).  I'll be interested to see what other information comes your way via Big Hook camps.

Too bad about East Lake having a shallow section.  That explains why there are no fish cabins on the lake.  I re-inspected my maps and it does look like the topography gets a lot flatter in the area of the glacial moraine and to the west.  Still, that looks to leave about 1/2 of the lake with the potential of having useful depth (if the land topography is echoed beneath the water).

Actually, I'd plotted out the loop you mentioned that started at Central (Big Hook) Lake and goes to the west -- 50 miles is accurate, maybe a mile or two longer.  There is at least one spot in that loop with a pretty substantial waterfall (25-30 foot drop at the north end of West Lake as the track exists toward East Lake) and one more in the 10 foot class (entering South Lake from the north in the area where there looks to be 4 "picky" portages relatively close together).

There is a potential of a secondary loop further west which would add another 65 miles or so if you have more time or looking for more adventure.  This would head further west from Southwest Lake and circle up to Cocos Lake before heading back east to intersect with the other loop (in East Lake).  I have a travel map that was used by a party that did about 95% of that track (I'm guessing) less than a decade ago.  The only small section that I have no navigation information on is as you exit Southwest Lake.  There would be a minimum of 2 portages if the existing waterways are navigable (longest would be about 65 rods ... I thinking bushwhack).

Any feedback on exiting the park for a short time.  There is another possible extension of the 65 mile route by going up to Joint Lake.  If you continue on north and then take a hard left, you work your way out to Island Lake, MB ... this lake is HUGE.  By working your way down the lake a bit, there is a route that re-enters the park by using Hilton Lake and you ultimately rejoin the previously mentioned loop south of Cocos Lake. (There is documentation of this route in Canoe Atlas of the Little North.) However, I think there is a better than even chance that you'd have to do an overnight somewhere along the line outside the park boundaries.

dd

I have had a day to ponder this new approach and it looks like an attractive alternative. This would simplify the whole process as each party would be scheduling and running their own trips.

At this point I am looking at making it up there this summer using Big Hook. Solo or with others is undecided. I am waiting for more info on those canoes. It may be time to purchase a Pak Boat like DD's. If I was outfitted for four weeks with a Pak Boat I would probably use all of the 100 pound over weight charge. If I used their tandem and had a change of partner after two weeks we would probably fit easily with the allowed baggage rate of 100 pounds each.

Thoughts?

Marten wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

I have had a day to ponder this new approach and it looks like an attractive alternative. This would simplify the whole process as each party would be scheduling and running their own trips. At this point I am looking at making it up there this summer using Big Hook. Solo or with others is undecided. I am waiting for more info on those canoes. It may be time to purchase a Pak Boat like DD's. If I was outfitted for four weeks with a Pak Boat I would probably use all of the 100 pound over weight charge. If I used their tandem and had a change of partner after two weeks we would probably fit easily with the allowed baggage rate of 100 pounds each. Thoughts?

I'd be interested in the "reality" of $500 for the flight from Red Lake to Central Lake.  I'm doing a fly-in/fly-out in WCPP this season and the per person costs for that exceed what you've been quoted.  None-the-less, it does look like an attractive option.

I'd definitely take my pakcanoe if this alternative holds up.  With 100 pounds of gear included in their flight price, I'm sure I'd be well into the second 100 pounds to include everything I'd need for a multi-week trip.

I'm also curious as to how the transfer happens at Sandy Lake.  The air strip isn't exactly adjacent to the float plane base.

dd

DentonDoc wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 2:17pm:

I'm also curious as to how the transfer happens at Sandy Lake.  The air strip isn't exactly adjacent to the float plane base. dd

I could not find an answer for that but their web site is packed with info and maps. Some special perks too for those who desire!

Beer & Soda Pop are available at our camp. If you wish to place an order, please call or email our office well in advance (at least three weeks ) before your arrival at camp. Your order will be delivered to your outpost camp. The cost is: $3.25 a US/Can of beer or $1.75 US/Can of soda pop.

Marten wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 3:16pm:

Beer & Soda Pop are available at our camp. If you wish to place an order, please call or email our office well in advance (at least three weeks ) before your arrival at camp. Your order will be delivered to your outpost camp. The cost is: $3.25 a US/Can of beer or $1.75 US/Can of soda pop.

Yeah.  I DID notice that!  (Also, putting adult beverages into a black plastic bag to go thru Sandy Lake ... an alcohol free zone.)

dd

Guys,

I have been reading your blog about doing Opasquia Provincial Park in 2013. I have been doing fly-in trips to this park via Big Hook for 23 years. 

Thought  I might throw in a few comments to give you a better understanding of how Big Hook operates. Bottomline, I really like the walleye fishing in this park.   I have been to several of the Big Hook camps over the years including Cocos, Southwest, West and South Lakes. Southwest has loads of 13 - 17 inch walleyes, in fact incredible numbers...just not very big ones. Cocos and West have a great combination of walleyes and northerns ...numbers and size.

I have settled in on South Lake for the past 15 years and normally go the 2nd week of August. I will be there Sat 8/10 - Sat 8/17/13 with 4 buds of mine .Its the smallest cabin of all the lakes but I like the numbers and potential for large walleyes here. Northern fishing is just OK.  They provide 15 hp  four stroke motors  with 14 - 16 ft LUNDS and gas for a week and provide staples like potatoes, beans, canned fruit and vegs, cooking oil, onions, etc, ...you just bring meat and whatever. There is a shower and oven  and outdoor grill. Bring sleeping bags... and you sleep on bunk beds with foam mattress.

I usually overnight at Balmertown Hotel  on Friday night before trip ... comfortable rooms ...and nice restaurant for so far north.

You leave Red Lake at predesigned time on a Saturday usually at 2 hours intervals starting at 6:30 am then 8:30 am  etc, You fly out of Wayasa Airport which is adjacent to to Red Lake Airport. You will park your vehicle at Waysaya airport for your duration. You will park in a fenced in area. You will leave your keys with airport personnel and they will have your vehicle waiting for you ready to exit the airport upon your arrival back from your trip.

We have always flew out in a 9 passenger turbo prop plane. You land in Sandy Lake usually in a 1 hour flight. Sandy Lake is a large 1st Nation  Indian reservation. It is a very sandy looking colored lake ... not sure why anyone would want to put a reservation on such a tan muddy colored lake. It is alcohol free on the reservation so you must pack in any liquor in a box or at least packed away unseen. There is a 100 lb limit on gear flying in and of course our group has  always been overweight as we bring in 8 - 10 cases of beer and a assortment of scotch and other whiskey's. The Ontario government is really cracking down on weight limits by the aircraft you are flying in. We used to be able to throw on some extra packs but now they weigh everything.

Steve @ Big Hook will pick you up at the airstrip on the outskirts of Sandy Lake in some old beat up vans. You will then proceed on a 15 minute drive to his dock at Sandy Lake. Steve has his own personal plane there but utilizes 2 to 3 Cessna float planes via Sandy Lake Airlines to move Big Hook customers to their various outposts. It only takes about 20 minutes to get to South Lake via float plane from Sandy Lake.

Normally in August we have not had weather issues that have limited flights in and out of Sandy Lake ... but once we did spend the night on the floor of the commissary at Sandy because of storms. We have had occasional late pickups at our cabin at take out time. The fact that you are 180 miles north of Red lake will at times mean you may have travel issues back and  forth between your camp, Sandy Lake and Red Lake.

Hey, I have to go watch the Final Four on TV ...if you need any more info ... please ask.

Thank you very much for the fine details.

Wally
Thanks for the info.
DD
The moraine you spoke of is south of Big Hook isn’t it.

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 11:35pm:

DD  The moraine you spoke of is south of Big Hook isn’t it.

There are several moraines in the area.  The one I referenced with respect to East Lake being shallow sits at about the mid-point of East Lake on the north shore.  A second one referenced earlier which comes down to the shore line is near the southern most reaches of East Lake along the route leading back to Central Lake.  There are actually 2 in this area but only one comes to the shore line .. these run more or less north east.

I think the one to which you refer is actually the grand daddy of moraines in this area ... I think its called the Opasquia Moraine.  The it huge by comparison to the others (roughly 2 km wide and 100 m high) and essentially runs the entire southern border of the park.  This is the reason that there are are no water channels running south in this area ... almost all terminate at the base of this moraine except for a rare few in the extreme east and west of the park and just outside park boundaries.  This is the principle reason that most water flows northward.  In addition, almost all water in the park flows into Island Lake toward the west.  So as a general rule, if you are wondering which way the water flows, think north and/or west.

dd

Guys, when you take the floatplane from Sandy, you will fly due north and fly right over a high morraine just as DD described as you make your way to Opasquia PP. it is a neat siight as most of the terrain that you will see from Sandy to Opasquia is flat with heavy jack pine forest and scattered small lakes,ponds and marsh.

When flying in the fog, it can be a bit dangerous as the high plateau comes out of nowhere and the elevation difference is quite dramatic.

Jimbo wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 7:57pm:

We have at least one QJer who uses Red Hook just about every year for basecamp/cabin style "American Plan" fishing trips.  I'm sure he could put us in touch with someone who can "negotiate." Jimbo   8-)

Wally 13,

I was wondering when you were going to pipe up in this discussion!

Thanks for sharing!

Also, it sounds like my dream of a mostly portage-free two weeks on East Lake has mostly evaporated.  Can't say I am enamored with the prospect of toting those heavy-ass aluminum dinosaurs but I guess you got to take what you get.

I kind of agree w/Marten that this Big Hook option is looking pretty good right now.

Jimbo   8-)

DD
I think I see symbols on the topo maps where some of them are but the grand daddy as you call it is not marked. 
Looking at google earth east and then north of Sandy lake shows the Severn river crossing the end of the moraine.  I think that water is beyond my skill level.

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 7^th, 2013 at 1:58pm:

DD I think I see symbols on the topo maps where some of them are but the grand daddy as you call it is not marked.  Looking at google earth east and then north of Sandy lake shows the Severn river crossing the end of the moraine.  I think that water is beyond my skill level.

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As illustrated, the Opasquia Moraine stretches approximately 50 miles across the southern edge of OPP.  If you are into geology, think of it in terms of "shore line" since it has been suggested that the moraine shows evidence of wave action from a massive lake (Lake Agassiz) of 365,000 square miles that dominate this area at the end of the last ice age (~11,000 years ago).  By massive, maps show the lake would have stretched from this location south to the North and South Dakota border, and approximately as wide (stretching from Ontario to Saskatchewan).  I haven't checked for sure, but I'm guessing it ultimately drained into Hudson Bay when the "levy" broke.

Also, I'm not surprised that there are no documented reports of pictographs.  Amazing that people don't bother to look for them.  For example, the lodge owners on Hansen Lake (WCPP) apparently didn't know there were 2 sets of picto's on THEIR lake.  Also, there is some documentation of picto's on Island Lake to the west, as near to OPP as Manitou Narrows.  In addition, since there are still First Nation settlements in all directions from OPP, it stands to reason that there are likely some there.

Jimbo -

I'm confident that we can find enough water to explore with no more than 2 portages to cross (if flying to East Lake) to keeps us entertained for a couple of weeks.  And even if you start at Central (Big Hook) Lake, you can reach East Lake in 3 portages (longest being something in the neighborhood of 50 rods).  And the good news is ... you'd be traveling with the current going in.

Finally, I think if we expressed to the operators of Big Hook Camps that a lighter canoe would be a "make-or-break" issue for people wanting to do canoe trips in the area they'd find a way to get a more "portagable" canoe delivered to Central Lake.  As long as there were sufficient renters over the course of a summer, I think that would be a no-brainer for them.

If they have concerns about canoeist disturbing their fish camp guests, I think it would be worth point out that many (if not all) of us would intentionally plan routes to AVOID camps and outboard noise.  I've also found in WCPP that many boaters that I've encountered are actually curious about canoeist in the area and will actually drive over to talk.

dd

I talked with Big Hook again this morning. They have 3 canoes at Central Lake Outposts. Two Nova Craft 17 foot Prospector and a 15 foot Nova Craft Scott. These weigh 70 pounds. They rent for $40 per day.

The round trip transportation is about $520. This can be done because the contracted air services are able to fly with full loads. He makes no profit on these flights. That cost is what the services charge.

I again brought up the option of bringing in Pak Canoes. He said if they were bulky it could incur "Cube Space Charges."

To book a trip you can send a $250 deposit for each person to the Big Hook's Milwaukee address. P.O. Box 510465, Milwaukee, WI 53203. Be sure to explain that you are making the deposit for a canoe and your dates. All entries and exits are on Saturdays but you can stay multiple weeks. The balance is paid during trip with cash or travelers checks. Please read all the info on their site for all the details.

Note from Claire on fees:
You will need to purchase Crown Land Camping permits.  Ontario Parks gets a % of the permit revenue so you are still supporting parks even if in a non-operating park.  Crown Land Camping permits can only be purchased in person at a Service Ontario office.  In Red Lake, this office is on the bottom floor of our building.

Craig (Farmer) and I are booking two weeks with one of the 17 foot canoes for July 13-27,2013 :P

Marten,

Did you mean to say you are booking for July, 2013, OR did you really mean to say July, 2014????

Jimbo   8-)

Jimbo wrote on Apr 9^th, 2013 at 7:04pm:

Marten, Did you mean to say you are booking for July, 2013, OR did you really mean to say July, 2014???? Jimbo   8-)

Yes, we are going this July 13, 2013. I want to go in and check it out as soon as possible. I have no idea what we are going to find the traveling conditions to be like. I am interested in doing the loop from Central Lake to South Lake to West Lake to East Lake and back to Central Lake.

The easy way would be to go NW from Central Lake to East Lake but I want to attempt the loop first. If we can't make it through we can always backtrack to Central Lake and go to East Lake via a few portages around some rapids. The loop should be about 50 miles and make a great trip for future paddlers. The loop is an old route but we do not know how clogged it may be.

You know there is another 17 foot canoe if you wanted to join the fact-finding mission. ;)

Rounding the bend and in the final stretch ....

Martin is near the completion of his clockwise loop (as indicated above), having made it as far west as Cocos Lake before turning east.  He has also taken several days to explore East Lake (to its upper reaches).

He still has a couple more days and a relatively short distance (with maybe 4 portages) to re-enter Central Lake.

I'm looking forward to a full report upon his return to civilization.

dd

I'm looking forward to a full report upon his return to civilization.

I'll second that...

Scot

Martin's loop is complete.  Tonite he rests on Central Lake.

dd