I am self taught when it comes to canoe tripping.......(that is a polite way of saying I don't really know very much  ;D ) And although I seem to get around in decent style you don't know what you don't know as the saying goes.

Take portaging for example. Sounds simple enough......take the stuff to the other side. I have my druthers when it comes to "order of operations" but I would interested to hear how others do it.

I will start off.......any critics are encouraged to weigh in. I get the feeling I am missing it (efficiency).

I leave the boat in the water, pile my stuff off to the side (away from anybody else) and then slide my boat up and tie it off. I prefer to take my pack across first. I am torn between the ease of lifting the boat while in the water and not handling it twice and being able to walk a portage first without a boat so I can size everything up.......blowdowns, best way around them, potential branches which may cause "issues" etc. etc. Plus I can decide when I get to the end wether / where to drop the boat in the water on trip #2.

So perhaps it is the old story of 6 of one or 1/2 dozen of the other? After all if you take the boat first you still have to set it on the bank before retrieving your kit (I speak as a soloist). Anyways.......just curious.

Here is my blow-by-blow account of our Quetico portaging regime. My canoe trips are always two-person adventures (my wife and I).

Almost always, we follow these steps...

1. Upon landing, we unload the canoe and set everything off to one side of the portage landing area (to get it out of the way of any others coming through).
2. I lift the canoe out of the water and set it off to one side.
3. We both change into our hiking/portaging boots (we don't do this if the portage is 100-200 metres or less and likely to be flat and easy).
4. I zip the life jackets around the bow and stern seats and attach the plastic bailer to the stern.
5. We put on our main packs (one each) and carry them (and a paddle, a divers' box holding camera & valuables and a couple of folding camp chairs) through to the other end. In case of a very long portage, we might shuttle things to the approximate halfway point and then continue from there).
6. Our second trip through has my wife carrying the food barrel (and a paddle) and me carrying a day pack and the canoe.
7. At the other end, we change back into our paddling shoes , I unzip the life jackets and bailer and then lift the canoe back into the water.
8. We load the canoe, take one last look to make sure we haven't forgotten anything and set off.

Like Mastertangler, I like to see what the route is like before carrying the canoe and also for my wife she feels more sure-footed and stable with her main pack than with the barrel so that's why we carry the main packs through first.

This may not be the most efficient method but we've become so used to it as a routine that it has become completely automatic.

mt, i am far more newbie than yoube. but: one pre-portage tip my bro gave me was to add bit of extra bug repellent on the approach before landing. i've been grateful for that one.

zski wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 2:44pm:

mt, i am far more newbie than yoube. but: one pre-portage tip my bro gave me was to add bit of extra bug repellent on the approach before landing. i've been grateful for that one.

What I have noticed zski is they are usually whole lots worse on the way back than on the way there. They pick up your signature on their little radars and clutter about in the portage trail after your past.........of course they are ready, willing and able to gather in formation, feint left and bite right on your return. For that reason it is typically a good idea to walk briskly (jog or run if they are over 4" in length) on reasonably clean pathways.

Now there is one reason to take the boat first! Hard to swat while carrying the boat. I carry a bottle of Bens in a small pocket on the sheathe of my Seal Pup.......comes in handy once or twice a trip  :thumbup

BTW........if you just let them bite, you eventually develop a bit of immunity and you will stop welting up. DISCLAIMER: not to be attempted with blackflies   ;)   ;D

Phoenix wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 12:49pm:

3. We both change into our hiking/portaging boots (we don't do this if the portage is 100-200 metres or less and likely to be flat and easy).

So; is tht just another way of saying you always change footwear? ;D

No matter how you do it the one thing I notice is that by the end of the trip the portage routine has become much more efficient and is executed automatically with out much thought. Seems like the first portage in is always a little clumsy.

I like to have a few things easily accessible in a pocket or strapped on while walking the trail: insect repellent, water bottle, camera, knife and maybe a little snack if it's been a long day.

Gimp of 01:

Yes, we usually wear sandals, crocs, Keens, etc. in the canoe but don't trust them for stability on the portage (unless it's really short and easy). So the change into hiking/portaging boots makes us feel more secure (it might also provide a little protection against poison ivy, who knows?).

It definitely adds time at each end of the portage to do the change, but we feel it's time well invested.

Usually a son and I; get packs and any loose items - nalgenes, paddles, map - on shore to one side - one of us grabs canoe and doesn't usually set it down till knee deep in water on other side; my sons might garb the lightest pack with canoe - I don't; I grab heaviest pack and loose items; and we both head back unless there is only one trip left, in which case my son goes back.  We try to avoid as much loose stuff as possible anymore, frequently stuffing it in top of CCS food pack after first day.

Whenever possible, we'll try to trade back-portaging - ideally meeting a similar size party at the half way point.

Not real rigorous about the method.

I load up everyone else in the party first. If I've done it efficiently, there's not much left for me... Que sera... ;)

My routine is not too different from Phoenix's.

1. Upon landing, I unload the canoe and set everything off to one side of the portage landing area (to get it out of the way of any others coming through).
2. I lift the canoe out of the water and set it off to one side.
3. I wear sandals for paddling, wetfooting and portaging and almost never change footwear
4. I stuff my life jacket under the elastic straps on the stern seat (elastic installed solely for this purpose) and attach the paddle under the port gunwale near the stern with velcro. The plastic bailer and spare paddle stay where they are, attached to the stern with velcro and under the right gunwale near the bowwith elastic respectively. If they aren't there already, I attach my sponge and fishing rod to the gunwales with velcro.
5. For unknown portages over about 100m I usually take my big heavy pack for the first trip to scout things out. For known portages I might take the canoe first.
6. My second trip is usually with the canoe. The last trip is with my light pack, day pack and camera.
7. At the other end, I put the canoe into the water and reload my three packs and camera case. Unvelcro my paddle and put my pfd back on, and I'm off.

For me it's important to have a fixed routine with only a few packs and no loose stuff. Partly this is to minimize the chance of forgetting or losing things, but mostly it is to avoid wasting time. On days with lots of short portages it's amazing how much time I can waste at the takeout staring at my gear wondering whether I should take this and that, or that and the other thing, or what I should take first. ;D

I also almost always triple-portage. My canoe is a bit heavier than most, and trying to carry too much at once on steep wet portages seems like a good way to slip and get injured. Besides, I like having one trip with my camera out and minimal extra encumbrance.

I have some strong preferences but since every portage is different each has to be adapted to.
#1 I do not unload the canoe unless high wind or terrain forces the issue. I would rather tie it securely out of the way and carry from there. I wet foot so thigh deep water is OK.
#2 I never like to carry the canoe first. I have rammed into too many obstacles that were above my line of sight. Not to mention veering onto the side path to see the rapids or where all the moose have been heading off to a good bog.
#3 I wear my life jacket across on the first carry and that pack's straps are adjusted to fit. Life jacket and hat are left at the end of the portage. My fanny pack with GPS,energy bar, compass and batteries stays with me unless there is no risk on the portage.
# The canoe comes last along with a light pack and my cheap but rugged back-up single blade paddle that is used as a walking stick. On really rough portages I will use this for a walking stick on each carry. I can't count the times the paddle has prevented big troubles.

It's reassuring to read this thread in that it appears most double portage, as do we.  My paddling partner and I planned a trip recently with two young friends of mine.  In meeting with them to plan the trip, they were appalled when they learned that we double packed and they insisted they were going to travel light and fast, and suggested that once on the trip, we could agree to meet on some lake further ahead.  As we talked, it was evident that our styles were so distinctly it wouldn't work.  We ended up mutually canceling the trip. 

Other than that, the only comment I'd add that is not duplicative to past posts is the value I've learned in always packing the gear in the same location in the canoe.  Occasionally over the years, as we've prepared to leave a portage, I've noticed a "hole" in the canoe and asked where a certain pack was that always went in that spot -- and in the process avoided leaving gear on the portage.

prouboy

I would hope KF would weigh in on this.  My self and several others have commented on how effetely he and Mrs. KF portage.

Old Salt wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 8:29pm:

I load up everyone else in the party first. If I've done it efficiently, there's not much left for me... Que sera... ;)

There's the OS I have come to know and love  ;D Where have you been?

jimmar wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

I like to have a few things easily accessible in a pocket or strapped on while walking the trail: insect repellent, water bottle, camera, knife and maybe a little snack if it's been a long day.

Hey Jimmar......great minds think alike  8-)  ::)

Let's see......on the Batman belt I have insect repellent, water bottle, camera, knife and I will usually eat a bar sometime during the day on a portage.

It's good to know who's responsible for what on tandem trips so the last person doesn't get stuck with anything extra.

Like Joe, I proudly triple when solo. I got into the habit with a heavier canoe and have yet discovered a reason to change style/everything to double. Three ~33# carries beats two ~50# ones in my book. Two would probably be faster but I've tried timing myself many times. I always forget to look at the end or forgot what time I started so I figure it's not very important to me. The one thing I don't do is sit at one end or the other waiting for a second wind 'cause I don't need to.

In no particular order:
1- Canoe. Paddle in hand. PFD clipped around seat.
2- Water bottle goes in the day food pack which simply gets tossed on top of the food pack. Spare paddle in hand.
3- Jacket, maps, lures are in the day pack that's tossed on top of the gear pack after the tripod is strapped on top. Camera case in hand.

Things change a bit as the foodpack lightens but it's just me. Things like rainfly, hatchet find there way into the food pack plus some gas comes out of the gear pack as the trip goes on. I could probably do two trips near the end but it would be awkward.

Like Marten said about paddles, they come in handy. It's not like I use mine as walking sticks all the time but they do come in handy once in a while.

Mosquitoes aren't a bother if you can move quickly. I've not "deeted up" for a portage in years nor do I dread them like I use to plus there's less risk of serious injury.  It's just 5 nice walks in the woods. ;)

I will sometimes have a powerbar 10 - 15 minutes before before a long portage. They always seemed to help a bit on tandem trips..

2x portage except when safety is concern. The infamous staircase portage into Russel comes into mind. 3x to top then 2x to Russell.

I don't think there is anyone "best" way,  but there are a few really bad ones.

Blocking the portage on either end is a big no-no.
Whatever style suits you, make it a routine and stick with it. People who just grab whatever is close each time, end up losing things sooner of later or have to repeat a trip because they forgot something or assumed someone else got it. :-?

If your a "roadrunner" and really traveling fast and light ( nothing the matter with that), that's one thing, but loading your self down to the point of exhaustion/ safety issue, because your trying to 1x/2x, because you think your saving time is misguided.
Better to make efficient non-stop( if possible) and quick returns ( picture time) than stop for frequent breaks because your exhausted or worse you take a tumble and injure yourself.
I bet if you timed yourself/others trying to carry to much versus quick and smart, you'd see the time savings is very minimal if at all.

I've seem more than a few paddlers bust butt to avoid an extra trip across and end up taking a break at put-in because they were wiped out from the effort. ;)

This brings to mind the whole "smell the roses" vs "charging towards goals". I think you can blend the two some. Keep moving, but slow down and take it easy. Down shift to "ambling" speed. It doesn't really slow you down as much as you think since you're overall more rested and cover more ground day after day. Stop often to look around. I think it's safer to stay comfortably within your limits, and your mind can still be engaged to the discovery of new ground.

I always carry the same things with each carry.

Usually 2 passes over a portage with guys.

Trips with gals I do 3 carries though and that's OK too. That gives them/her time to get the cameras out. But I just got a new lighter boat for when there's just us two. So I'm hoping I can carry a small guide pack with some gear while carrying the boat to lighten our other packs enough to do 2 carries each. Gals use trekking poles for safety.

Guys are stronger, but gals are tougher. But that's a story for another day.  ;)

Phoenix wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 8:00pm:

Gimp of 01: Yes, we usually wear sandals, crocs, Keens, etc. in the canoe but don't trust them for stability on the portage (unless it's really short and easy). So the change into hiking/portaging boots makes us feel more secure (it might also provide a little protection against poison ivy, who knows?). It definitely adds time at each end of the portage to do the change, but we feel it's time well invested.

Actually it was a poke at the concept of a flat easy portage; not at a choice of footwear. Strong sturdy supportive well fitting footwear for a portage should just be a given.

Our routine we developed on the only 2 person trip I've been on was land; offload what the bowman was going to carry across (food pack); load him up and send him on his way. I finished offloading and grabbed my load for the trip across; canoe with whatever we had configured to fit inside it and a light pack. we would meet about the middle point while he was heading back for the rest. I would get to the end; get the canoe into the water and load up all that was there. Once he got back it was a short mission to get the rest of the gear loaded and off we went.

Left the food pack unattended for only a short while; and if the bugs were bad at the end of the portage we were able to shove off rather quickly.

I have always traveled in tandem in the BW.  We always single portage.  All fishing gear, paddles, pfd's have their place in the canoe and the canoe goes first.  We then have two bags that the other paddler carries across to the other side. 

We usually, paddle for a week at a time and have learned that extra stuff, becomes just that, so we leave it at home.

This gives us more time on the water and in camp, which to me is always the best part of the trip.

oops.

I've been soloing lately and I double portage. I like to be efficient when on a travel day so with the canoe in the water I get out and lay the yak paddle, pfd, and map off to the side of the landing.  I then haul out the big gear pack and try to position it near the misc stuff so I can easily hoist it on later.  I LOVE when I find a higher up spot like a rock or downed tree to rest it on.

Then I'll wade back in and put on the yoke then strap on the guide pack before hoisting up the canoe. I'll usually take my small camera in a pocket so that I can shoot on the walk back to get the gear pack and misc.

The only time I won't do it this way is if I'm in the Quetico interior and know there's a rugged portage.  Then I'll scout it out with the gear pack and misc first.

Bringing the canoe first is a time saver as there's less lifting and moving of things.

*It's impertant to have enough water on hand when doing long portages so I'll make sure to drink before I start the first carry then usually finish the liter when I set the canoe down.  I also have a bottle waiting for me when I get back to carry the gear pack. Back in 2000 I got caught short of water on the Side lake to Sarah killers in high heat and will never make that mistake again.

Quote:

*It's impertant to have enough water on hand when doing long portages so I'll make sure to drink before I start the first carry then usually finish the liter when I set the canoe down.  I also have a bottle waiting for me when I get back to carry the gear pack. Back in 2000 I got caught short of water on the Side lake to Sarah killers in high heat and will never make that mistake again.

Water, water everywhere and still people make this mistake, which is excusable the first time, but just plain foolish after that.

I am generally soloing and paddling a kayak.  In order to get all the gear into the kayak I have it in several smaller packs: tent, tarp, ropes in one; food in one or two cylinder shaped water proof packs; cook kit in a bucket; small pack with stove and water filter, gas, etc.; personal portage pack with all my sleeping gear, clothes, etc.; a camp chair which gets bungeed to the top of kayak deck; and two smaller sacks that are tied into the boat permanently, one has my rain gear, the other has saw, hatchet, birchbark for fire making.  I have a big foam pad which I sit on in the yak and sleep on at camp that fits into the bottom of my kayak and stays inside while portaging; also an extra portage pack, PFD and paddle.
I used to portage in two trips, now I am up to three trips: more stuff and an older body.  At the landing I pull in, get out, and if I can...gently pull the yak up on shore where it is easier to unload.  If I can't pull it up I pull everything out while it sits next to shore.  Stack everything in a pile off the path and then fill an extra, large portage pack with all those smaller bags.  Organize everything else so it is easy to carry and head down the trail with the first load.
If the portage is very short I may just pull out a handful of packs and portage that way.  It usually adds an extra trip to the portage.  If the portage is under 50 rods I usually take the load to the other end; if it is over 50 rods I will carry a load until I am getting tired, then put it down and return for another load, leap-frogging to the end with drops every 30-40 rods till I get it all there.
If the next portage is coming right up, across a small pond, I will throw the big packs into the yak and sit on top of them rather than re-pack.  This is a tippy way to do it so I do not do it often.
If it is raining hard I will just take one load out of the yak and then roll it over on dry shore with the rest still in it so the remainder and the cockpit stay dry while I am gone.  I often will set up my tarp at the end of the portage on very wet days, haul everything over and take refuge and a break under the tarp until the weather improves some.
No matter how you do it, I think the trick to keeping portage time to a minimum is to KEEP MOVING.  I know I can waste a lot of time sitting in my yak at the beginning of the portage thinking "Ugh!" and at the end thinking "Whew!"...kind of hoping I can mentally teleport over the trail and moving my gear.  I see lots of parties of 2 or more doing the same thing, discussing the situation instead of getting going on the trail.
RE: Old Salt's method....so THAT'S how you do it.  (You guys think he's joking...he isn't.)

---

Last season I reduced gear to the point that it was not too much trouble to single portage most of the time. My first trip in April I got everything into one pack but it was really too much weight to carry safely. In May I managed the same but still a bit heavy and had to double on some difficult carries. For a week long trip in August I managed to get everything comfortably in a Granite Gear Solo pack (not a very large bag) and keep it light enough that I was able to single into Kahshapiwi via McNeice without undo strain. I take less and less shit and truth is I don't miss it.

---

Not a single portage (from last April)

---

I appreciate the "stop and smell the roses" sentiment...and in all past years we have always double portaged. Being self-taught in this canoe tripping business, it really never dawned on me that a person should or could be able to carry a good sized pack AND a canoe. But last year I vowed to attempt single portaging and was actually amazed that the amount of effort to carry a pack versus a pack and canoe was not so different. And despite comments to the contrary, we found there was a significant time savings on the portages by single portaging. Really, there's no such thing as a double portage, which by definition is really three trips on the trail. The one difference I did notice last year, though, was a greater degree of upper body strain, as we were doing considerably more paddling than portaging. In a way, a double portage is a good break from the strain of paddling. There's no question that we were able to cover considerably more miles in a day using single portages.

Like others have suggested, the key is to travel light. In our group of four, we had one food pack, one gear pack, two fairly light personal packs, a small tackle box (which could hold the collapsible rods) and a small backpack for miscellaneous gear. The canoe carriers got to haul the personal packs, the other two got the heavier food or gear packs and the other small items. Seemed to work well without undue risk.

Quote:

. And despite comments to the contrary, we found there was a significant time savings on the portages by single portaging

I think that's true IF your portaging as you described and not straining then recovering because you've bitten off more than you can chew. ;)
Another thing to consider is that tripping in a group gives you a "margin' of error that a solo paddler can't afford.
IMHO no matter how you do it, being safe and avoiding injury should trump all other considerations.

ST says:


Quote:

IMHO no matter how you do it, being safe and avoiding injury should trump all other considerations.

Amen to that!

intrepid_camper wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 4:21pm:

I am generally soloing and paddling a kayak.

Hello IC: What do you use for a portage yoke?
      and: What have you tried that didn't work?

I use a yoke we made specially for the Poke boats we paddle.  It is a 3/4 inch clear board with a curve cut out of it for one's neck; and it is long enough to just cross both side combings at the balance point.  I use a 4" metal wood wowrker's clothespin-like clamp on each end, I can JUST get it to span the end of the board and hook onto the combing; on each end of the yoke.  Yoke is padded with an inch of closed cell foam and that is covered over with some cordura which is tacked all around (like upholstery).  Since my yak is just 28 pounds it works for me; something heavier might not be able to rely on the clamps. 
I have broken the board in the past, but it is easy to make another one back at home.  Without a yoke I can still portage with the yak resting on my head and both forearms to support it.  It is fine for short portages but gets tiresome on longer ones.
With the yoke I can carry a portage pack and the kayak.  The yak rests nicely on the top of my pack behind my head.

IC, Thanks. Poke boat says a lot. Super lightweight and strong. One of these days hope to get down to berea for a test drive. I'm currently working with a 58# plastic behemoth.

ive never solo tripped and ive always been in a group of 3 or more, so that kinda helps with the margin of error portion. the past few years my canoe (we usually have 2 or 3 canoes) has done the portages in one trip. we have 2 taller guys that like taking the canoes and the two shorter guys take the 2 community packs. we have a self imposed rule of one personal pack only. there are 2 'community' packs, one for the food stuffs and the other for the tents. that leaves one person per item 2 canoes, 2 packs, 4 people. we trade off when necessary as well. ive done quite a bit of work on my canoe to streamline the portage process, so the paddles/rods easily store up inside.

from landfall to everybody walking the portage with gear its about a 3 minute process. we all enjoy the fishing aspect the most, so the longer we spend on land, the less we get to fish. if there was a way to troll a line behind us on the portage and catch fish im sure my group could find it.

with that said, half of the people in our group are a tiny bit OCD about being early to everything so we try to get to our destination ASAP! the other half is pretty laid back so sometimes we have issues on portage days.

jaximus wrote on Apr 20^th, 2013 at 9:40am:

with that said, half of the people in our group are a tiny bit OCD about being early to everything so we try to get to our destination ASAP! the other half is pretty laid back so sometimes we have issues on portage days.

That's probably the most important thing about portage styles. Having everyone in agreement.

To me it's all part of the trip, not just something that needs done.

Well, we like to paddle real hard to get the canoe about 2/3 on shore, so we don't get our feet wet.  Then we get out and drag the canoe up another 10 yards before we unload...
   OK, not really.  Usually tandem and do one trip on the short ones (one guy gets food pack and canoe; other guy gets big gear pack and "day pack" slung on front; hand carry or bdb paddles and rods) or leapfrog stuff on the longer ones.  Have not been efficient or light enough to single trip when soloing, but that is OK, I enjoy the walk backs.

ripple wrote on Apr 29^th, 2013 at 5:59pm:

Well, we like to paddle real hard to get the canoe about 2/3 on shore, so we don't get our feet wet.  Then we get out and drag the canoe up another 10 yards before we unload...

;D  That doesn't explain the colored rocks I've seen on short portages...

Old Salt wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 8:29pm:

I load up everyone else in the party first. If I've done it efficiently, there's not much left for me... Que sera... ;)

I let Old_Salt load me up before I head across.  All them small stuff gets strapped into the canoe until it weighs about 80#.  Then he loads me up.  Usually I have the heaviest pack on my back, another full-sized pack on my chest, a smaller pack slung over each arm, and then OS rolls the canoe over the top of me and onto my shoulders.  OS then heads off down the trail in front of me to stir up all the skeets really well attract the mosquitoes away from me and scout the trail unencumbered. 

He tells me this is the most efficient way to do it so he will remain fresh and alert for when it's time to fish.   ;D

Seriously though, how we portage is going to depnd a lot on who is on the trip and how many there are.

Solo, I usually take the canoe and a light pack first and come back for the heavier pack with the daypack across my chest unless I suspect the portage is unusually tricky.  Get the heavier load across while fresh.  I sometimes triple towards the end of a long day of portaging.  Just depends on my energy level.  Safety trumps speed, always.

When with my usual paddle partner Tim on 2-man trips, we generally single the portage.  I get canoe and light pack, Tim gets monster pack and daypack.  All incidentals are strapped into the canoe or onto a pack.  We'll do about 100 rods at a time and then take a 10 minute break before resuming.  The 10 minute break usually happens at any point that looks more interesting, flora-wise and I'll use the time to photograph and just enjoy the woods around me.

On trips with 4 or more, it usually takes a portage or two to evolve to the system we'll use the rest of the trip but then we stick with that system in order to maximize efficiency and ensure that everyone knows what they'll carry each time so nothing gets left behind.  2nd to last load scouts the landing to be sure that nothing is left behind except that which the last person usually carries.  If there is anything that was forgotten, this person either carries it or reports it to the last person when he meets him on the trail so that person knows to get it.  Last person does one final sweep of the landing before loading up as well.  Never once have we had to go back to retrieve a forgotten item with this system.

I'm always in hiking boots for a portage and I wet-foot it. I'm not into balance beams or rock-hopping with a load on my back, either.  Plow through!

Somewhere, buried within this forum, is a great discussion of portaging etiquette, which I can't seem to find.  It was a few years back though.

Snow_Dog wrote on Apr 30^th, 2013 at 1:08pm:

I let Old_Salt load me up before I head across.

HA! Good one SD.......

I stumbled across this Old Salt portage training video (He still looks good).......Always remember........"Do, or do not. There is no try"

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MT,

You traitor! I can't believe you would reveal, for all of cyberspace to read, my sources and methods! These are trade secrets!

Others have marveled in amazement at the speed and ease of our party getting our junk from one end of the portage to the other. I'm sure you've already figured out that we really don't need to paddle our canoes to travel lakes, but that merely using our paddles to steer, we travel just under sub-warp speed.

It is always nice to arrive at our chosen destination, refreshed and ready to fish, in a mere fraction of the time it takes for mere mortals to travel the same distance.

Next, you will no doubt reveal, that fishing methods, lures, etc., are but an illusion. The reality, is that the largest fish in the lake are compelled to strike our offerings.

I've said too much... :o