Sometimes I can be a hothead (who me?) and what I mean by that is I run a bit on the warm side. When the temps hit that 80 degree mark you will find me in shorts and if it hits 89 I might dispense with the shorts and run in my skivvies (My Indian name being Watana-ki-bwana being loosely interpreted "he who walks in underwear").

Here's the rub, while I am not unfamiliar with poison Ivy I generally ignore it...... what made an impression with me is just how often KF was pointing the noxious plant out. The dang stuff seems quite prevalent in the Quetico.

Add in the two recent bits of info I have read about lymes disease and I am reevaluating some things. In Boundary waters journal a guy went through hell and got the bite in The Quetico if I remember correctly (the observation being made by his partner and subsequent bullseye rash). Then in this past issue of Backpackers Mag there was an article about stuff that bites.......some 25 people have died as a result of lymes. Could that be true? Anyway some pretty nasty consequences from infected deer tick bites. Its almost enough to make me consider dousing myself in chemicals.

In any event my first inclination will now be towards long pants. If you need tripping pants I can't say enough about railriders weatherpants. Definitely tops.

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I've also found that the lightweight spandex type long johns help out against ticks.  You'd think they'd be hot on a warm day, but on Aug 27th, it was in the mid 90's and I was not uncomfortable paddling. 

Poison Ivy?  Ticks?  In the woods?  Next thing you're going to tell us is that there are mosquitoes out there too.

(I can do this all day if you like)   ::)

PhantomJug wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 3:21pm:

Poison Ivy?  Ticks?  In the woods?  You can't be serious MT.  Next thing you're going to tell me is that there are mosquitoes out there too. (I can do this all day if you like)   ::)

Havin a bad day? Maybe a bad month? Like I said this may be old hat to some of you more experienced trippers but I'm a neophyte.....you know, a beginner. I'm not a big hard drinkin, bag-pipe blowin, kilt wearing tough fellow but just a tender hearted artist with delicate sensibilities (please don't hurt me).

So yea, this was a lesson learned. Maybe its not so smart to run in shorts as per my usual custom. Who knew folk have actually died as a result of Lymes? And maybe, just maybe I might not be impervious to poison Ivy? But wait there's more lessons that I learned coming!..........unless of course you would like to post a topic of conversation? Hey come to think of it I can't remember you starting much of anything, except of course "commentary" on what other people post. So what about it? Why don't we turn the tables and you can start something and subject yourself to petty snide remarks? Whadya say?

I don't get it? I have always been supportive of you PJ, invited you to Florida to fish and tried to set you and your family up with my friend in the panhandle to take you out. What gives? It's OK.......story of my life, people who really like me and people who don't. No bigey. Here is a recipe.......go make some stew. (pretty good, I'm eating some right now  ;) )

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Yeah, I don't start many conversations anymore.  I satisfied my need to hear myself talk in 1993 - killed the "Old Adam" as they say.  Most of of my communication around here is done through PM, emails.  But hey, let's keep this going.  You get to feed your narcissism while I get to hone my sarcasm - win/win if you ask me.  Of course it will take some thicker skin on your part.

So rather than make it personal, lets just keep it up for entertainment value.  Enjoy your lunch Al. 

MT -

Typically I'm wearing long pants on portages due to foliage overgrowth & the fact that I am highly allergic to poison ivy.  Incidentally, there is one little known BENEFIT to being allergic to poison ivy.  If you happen to have planters' warts on your feet, dermatologists might suggest that you actually walk BAREFOOT down the portage path.  Yes, you will likely catch poison ivy but there is a better than 50% chance that you will also get rid of your planters' warts as your body recovers from the poison ivy.  I once had thirty of the damn things on my feet; THAT was how I got rid of them!

Re: lymes disease, I'm not sure how many cases can be attributed to time spent in the Q or the BWCA.  I'd be interested in hearing any facts or figures on that one.  I went into the Q this past August w/a good friend from NJ who caught the disease in NJ & was just recovering from the stuff.  It's very prevalent out east &, to listen to him, it's really bad news stuff.  Catch the symptoms early and deal with them or go through hell... those appear to be your choices. 

I've never had problems w/ticks in the Q beyond the middle of July.  They are particularly bad in the spring & then they seem to tail off & virtually disappear by that time.  Plucked 13 of the little beggars off of me after walking that long portage from Yeh into Lonely Lake one June.  You get a bit further north in the province, however, & they don't exist.  My understanding is that they are NOT present at all in Woodland Caribou Park.  Of course, with global warming, who knows how long THAT circumstance will last.

Most campsites I've visited in the Q have been relatively free of poison ivy so I walk about freely in shorts (sometimes in less than that).  On the other hand, I exercise a bit more care when I trot back into the woods, trowel in hand.  There are some places on your body where you simply do not want to catch poison ivy... regardless of the presence of warts.

Jimbo   8-)

OK. I don't expect anyone to read the technical stuff in this article but clicking on the maps to expand them and seeing how science expects Lyme disease to spread in the coming years (as a result of climate change) may be of interest.

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...and here's one more dealing with the life cycle of deer ticks. From something I read, September seems to the best time of year for avoiding ticks.

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Phoenix wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 6:53pm:

OK. I don't expect anyone to read the technical stuff in this article ...   (You need to Login or Register

Thanks for trying to raise the level of discussion in this thread, Phoenix!

I did read the technical stuff, and while the authors provide an interesting scenario, I think they overstate the reliability of their forecasts. (blah blah blah ... predict the current situation with an accuracy over 89% (P<0.0001) ... blah blah blah).

In all computer modeling (been there done that) you start with a big computer model of the area you're dealing with. This model includes hundreds, maybe thousands of adjustable constants (fudge factors). The first thing you do is to adjust these fudge factors so that the model generates data consistent with the current facts (today's data and usually a few years of recent history). This is called "history matching" - with hundreds of fudge factors to fiddle with, it's usually fairly straightforward to get your model to agree with what you already know. This is *not* the same as predicting anything (and fwiw is a serious problem with global warming models). Just because the authors have an okay history match, it doesn't mean their model is correct, it just means their model *could be* close to correct, and there could be other combinations of fudge factors or other basic (but different) computer models that could also give a good match. Just sayin' !

But yeah, Lyme disease is not something to be taken lightly, and checking for ticks should be an important part of everyone's bedtime ritual in canoe country.

A well published scientist told me that by the year 2000 a large part of Florida would be under water.  That was in 1990.  He told me all the models predicted it.  You are old enough to remember when the threat was the polar ice caps were going to melt and the oceans were going to rise.

partschaser09 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 1:07pm:

I've also found that the lightweight spandex type long johns help out against ticks.

I always take a pair of running tights with me when tripping, but usually as an extra "warm" layer rather than as tick protection. The kind made from high-tech fabric designed to wick moisture away from your body are worth the extra investment, imo.

I have had good experiences buying this kind of stuff from   (You need to Login or Register . You can often find some really good deals if you filter for "closeout" stock and aren't too picky about a specific brand name or color.

Iirc, many years ago, one of the first Super Bowls was held outdoors in Minneapolis. At least one of the teams was outfitted in XXXL pantyhose for warmth, so you could go this route too with minimal investment.

It is rare that a tick actually attaches before I find it. I found one tick attached this year (five trips of a week or more in the Q + live in the area). I wear shorts any time the temp is 60 or above.

The only superbowl played in Minnesota was at the Metrodome (indoors) in 92. If the players were observed wearing xxxl panty hose it was for personal reasons.

Solus wrote on Sep 25^th, 2013 at 1:32am:

The only superbowl played in Minnesota was at the Metrodome (indoors) in 92.

I guess I didn't recall correctly - maybe it was somewhere else cold and the Vikings were one of the teams playing. It was a lo-o-o-ong time ago  :D

i bring/wear the thin nylon zip off pants. that way i have pants/shorts at a moments change. they are thin enough and light enough i usually wear them as pants all the time. that way i dont get sunburn/bugs/scratches from plants. for portages, i usually tuck the bottoms inside my neoprene socks. helps avoid the tick problem and also keeps me from walking on the heels of my pants and tripping.

i also bring a set of under armor leggings for under warmth if the need arises on my june trips.

Quote:

i bring/wear the thin nylon zip off pants. that way i have pants/shorts at a moments change. they are thin enough and light enough i usually wear them as pants all the time.

Best of both worlds. I know there are a few die-hard's that like their jeans or cotton pants, but you could pack 3-4 complete synthetic outfits (pants/shirt) for the weight of a pair of cotton jeans/pants in less space too. Treat with Permithrin and put in vacuum type packing bag.

Factor in how fast they dry, it's hard to understand why anyone would want cotton jeans, unless your just going on a base camp trip?

Ticks are one thing but keeping cool is a large part of not attracting mossies.

Permithrin treat long pants and shirts spring and summer.

The cotton poly blends Piragis sells are working for me. Long cuffs on the pants and tuck'm into your socks. Button up the top shirt collar and flip the collar up. Then you need very little deet to finish covering up.

After a long day of working out on a grassy trail near my MN cabin I was doing my changing routine into fresh clothes before entering the cabin. 165 ticks (no deer ticks) were killed with the needle nose pliers as I checked the work clothes and my body. Ever notice how you check for ticks and they still keep coming out of nowhere? Look closely in your seams especially between your legs. You will barely be able to see them as they are trying to burrow in but eventually they back out to try elsewhere.

The ticks have never been that bad again but I now always treat my  work clothes with permethrin. Another trick is to be the last in line when walking in tick country. They are so good at latching on to things that the last person in line is not going to have near the tick problems as the others.

Phoenix wrote on Sep 24^th, 2013 at 6:56pm:

...and here's one more dealing with the life cycle of deer ticks. From something I read, September seems to the best time of year for avoiding ticks.   (You need to Login or Register

I used to work with this guy (see link) -- a wildlife biologist who studied song birds.  He discovered that many songbirds he trapped were covered with ticks.  He wrote a paper on how migratory songbirds help spread ticks, and lymne's disease. 

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prouboy

prouboy

Okay, I stutter.  Who cares.   :)

prouboy 

Puckster wrote on Oct 19^th, 2013 at 9:30pm:

Okay, I stutter.  Who cares.   :) prouboy

Oh you do not.

I'm finding out lots of interesting things about ticks. Such as Martin having to pick so many off......who knew? I think the most I Have ever had was 2 or 3.

I was recently next to a potter from New York State who had a place out in the country. After several bouts of Lyme disease including one which hospitalized his wife they finally figured out that their cats were bringing the ticks into the house. He also got quite a few Guinea hens and says that since he got them they have had zero ticks.

I haven't had many ticks on myself but my dogs get their share.  I once pulled 11 ticks from my border collie puppy's ears the day after we walked through waist high grass at a local Illinois Forest Preserve.  I took my 2 year old dog to the Q in early September and never found any over 10 days.

Regarding poison ivy - Man, that stuff can be brutal!  I caught a bad case on my legs, arms and hands a few years ago (not in the BW) and I was all over the internet printing pictures of the stuff to keep in my work truck.  I suggest everyone know what it looks like and keep a look out for it in the BW.  There is a good jell or cream made that stops the itching for a while and I've brought some the last 2 trips to the Q just in case.

MT, I'm glad you start these thread topics.  Without you this site would be a ghost board.  If we all conversed via PM's and email what's the friggin point of the board?

When I bought my house there was a patch of poison ivy on the side that took me years to fully get rid of. I don't see much of it in Q at all. I had a bad case in high school once. It was kinda worth it.

Ticks are most problematic in the W or SW in Spring. I just tuck my pants into my socks after the first tickle. That's the thing about ticks. They just keep crawling up up up, tickling all the way until they can't anymore and I've never just picked up one tick. Where there's one there is usually more.


Quote:

"checking for ticks should be an important part of everyone's bedtime ritual in canoe country.

That's what I always told girlfriends and my wife. ;)

As far as PMs go, they are for personal messages -as in stuff the group doesn't want or need to hear. Most people, including MT at times, use it rather effectively when they want to. I'll trade quality information for repetitious volume any day:
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YMMV.
There's a dozen more that come up in a search. Hey, they are probably great pants! I got no clue. Permethrin still seems like overkill to me too but hey, whatever works for folks. I don't even bring shorts anymore. I wear the same pants night and day the whole trip. Fashion faux pas - I know. I had to wash them this year. S tube of soap blew up in a pocket and I couldn't stand the smell.

TomT wrote on Oct 20^th, 2013 at 3:49am:

MT, I'm glad you start these thread topics.  Without you this site would be a ghost board.  If we all conversed via PM's and email what's the friggin point of the board?

Well Tom that's not really true. The board was plenty lively before I came along and would do fine without my contributions. PJ's loathing of my excessive postings are not entirely misplaced and I suspect he is not alone in sharing that perspective.

So I will try and ease off the accelerator a bit. Besides, that leaves room for others to slip into the pool.

I don't know your history with him but I do know that this board has a reputation and this thread highlighted some of that.

Personally, I'd love to hear which QJ reputation this post highlighted for you since I read it again and think I already know the probable who/whats and would love to trade whys.

Feel free to PM me or post publicly. Your call but I'd like to understand your POS as a relative newcomer a bit better. Perhaps I can give you my take on it and we can both learn something useful to everyone in the process.

TomT wrote on Oct 20^th, 2013 at 10:23pm:

I don't know your history with him

No history Tom except here on the board. PJ objects to my "hey look at me, aren't I a swell guy" style of posts (fair enough) and I am confrontational to a fault to posts that I see as mean spirited wether directed at me or someone else. So we clash.

But I think we both understand that folk are seldom one dimensional screen beings but rather have "layers" ;)

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To get back to the topic at hand, and off of MT's and PJ's souring bromance (sorry fellas, I couldn't resist!!!) ...

I've been to Quetico I think 13 times now, and I have never ever seen poison ivy. (In Kentucky, it's rampant, so I do recognize it.)

And this year I picked up my first-ever tick, too.

Of course we go in September (and once in October), so that probably affects things. This year it was unusually warm, at least the first few days, so that could explain that stray tick.

Just my experience up north, for what it's worth ...

-- kypaddler

db wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 6:36am:

Personally, I'd love to hear which QJ reputation this post highlighted for you since I read it again and think I already know the probable who/whats and would love to trade whys. Feel free to PM me or post publicly. Your call but I'd like to understand your POS as a relative newcomer a bit better. Perhaps I can give you my take on it and we can both learn something useful to everyone in the process.

db,

I'm sure the Moderator group would be interested in what you might learn, too.  Speaking as someone who has 34+ years of professional human resources experience behind him, I'd be very interested in learning more about the "reputations" earned by the vagaries & vicissitudes of our QJ membership.  If we have significantly deviated from some theoretical "norm" in some meaningful way (good or bad), I suppose the Mod team needs to share some "credit."

People walk away/disconnect/resign from websites for any number of reasons.  Often they simply can't deal with the diversity of perspectives, tones, & attitudes they encounter.  We certainly see all types on QJ!  Some of the disaffected become bitter about it and snipe away at the website (or some of its members) elsewhere in cyberspace.  It's their prerogative to do so, I suppose.  They can frame their story afresh and minus any contention OR they can simply hook up with other disaffected & commiserate.

I, for one, am glad we have a Moderator board to review &, possibly, deal with "extreme" behaviors.  Perhaps it should be more active; perhaps less active.  The only way we know the answer to that question is to hear from members, whether it be complaints or plaudits.  That includes the earning of "reputations" that members prefer we NOT have and wish to have addressed.

As for me, I'm going to keep plugging QJ (in articles I contribute to magazines, other forums, talking to other paddlers & such).  I am very much OK with having my name associated with it... regardless of whatever notoriety/reputation we may have earned along the way.  I am very happy with the preponderance of activity I see on this website.  That's not to say that we don't need to change things every once in awhile; I'm sure we do.

I guess I'm saying that - if we have a "reputation" - it must because the members want it that way.  Otherwise, I trust, we would be hearing more about making changes, interventions, etc..  Geez, from my POS ("point of skew", for the db & QJ uninitiated), when I listen to members about issues, about all I'm hearing is... crickets. 

In the QJ bygone days of yore, Mod interventions were more frequent (& necessary) due to gunfights & inappropriate content blooming here & there.  Lots of member complaints & issues came up... that's how you sort yourself out & decide what you're going to be when you mature, I guess.  And now we are what we are... for better or for worse. 

May we're too "tolerant" now?  I don't know.  Comparatively speaking, however, our current era of MT & PJ "sparring sessions" seems to me more like our halcyon years!

In summary, anything we might learn or do to improve the website, I'm all for it; always have been.  My guess is the other Mods feel pretty much the same way.  If folks have something to say, we'll listen & address it.

Jimbo   8-)

Can't resist putting in my two cents here, more or less.   ;)

This is what I think has become the "reputation" of QJ, from others I know pretty well on another board who know that I am also a long-time contributor to QJ and share their thoughts occasionally with me.  (Just for what it's worth.  Not saying it is MY opinion, guys.)

1.  QJ is pay-to-play only.  You have to pay to really use the site in any meaningful way.

2.  QJ is only for those who go to Quetico or places further north; BWCA travelers are barely tolerated and rarely encouraged.  (I might add here, not that well respected either.  I didn't feel that way when I first joined, but I sort of do now.)

3.  Inexperienced canoeists' questions are not handled politely; if you haven't already searched your topic, you are in trouble.  Asking a stupid question gets you ridiculed.

4.  QJ isn't particularly friendly to new members who don't fit in; there are cliques and groups to which you must belong.  (As an aside, this is true of all boards, but they don't recognize it in themselves, only in others. ;))

5.  The political forum turned a lot of people off.  I realize that it is now available only if you opt in, but I think the damage was already done if you are talking about perception of people who just happened upon the board and then talked about it to others.  That was where the "reputation" began, from what I perceive.  A place of nasty arguments, and particularly a place where people of conservative political leanings are not welcome.

I have been a member of QJ for many years.  Longer than I have been on any other board, and I only frequent one other, although I lurk in some places where I am not a member.  I still enjoy some things about QJ and I post occasionally, although not as often as I did once.  I have a lot of friends here and I don't want to offend a single one of you.  But you asked.  These are my ideas about the "reputation". 

I second Spartan II's point #5, and I'm not even conservative.

prouboy

Wow!. I've been a paying member (voluntarily, I might add) for only about 3 years now. The main reasons I joined QJ are:

(1) the information posted here is generally very useful and deals in detail I can find nowhere else with one of the few areas in North America I truly love - namely, Quetico.

(2) compared to other boards I have visited or participated on, QJ appears to be well moderated and VERY civilized. I've have had personal PMs with a number of the members and found them to be very generous and helpful and pleasant to converse with.

Yes, QJ is very Quetico (or further north) centric - as Linda says - but that is exactly what I'm looking for. I would have no problem with more posts dealing with the Boundary Waters, by the way.

For what it's worth, that's my perspective.

I don't know anything about QJ's reputation.  But I do agree that the discussion on the political /religion areas were embarrassing and damaging to QJ.  I even thought of quitting the site because of the outrageous comments made on the site.  I still have trouble listening to certain people when they talk about fishing and camping because of the outrageous comments they made previously.

It certainly is true that QJ focuses on Quetico, but that is a big plus to me.  I haven't been to the BWCA for over 25 years and have no immediate plans on visiting the BWCA. 

My thoughts.
1. Checking QJ is part of my daily morning routine, have to have it.
2. Yes it it seems to have more content related to Quetico. I like.
3. I don't feel like I'm part of the clique, that's ok by me.
4. I didn't even read any of the political/religious postings - I avoid that BS when ever I can - it probably would have made this place less enjoyable if I'd read them.
5. The banter I read when a couple of folks get their shorts in a bundle is sometimes enjoyable. Personalities come through in the posts, I like reading MT and PJ as well as other QJ celebs. Just seeing their name on a post sparks my attention.
6. I have noticed traffic seems to have slowed considerably in the past year or so, that I don't like.
7. I try to make a contribution, although on the light side, to this forum (pics, trip reports, comments, $), but never felt pressure to do so.
8. I've been attacked on another forum so ferociously for what I thought was an innocent that a moderator shut down the thread in just a few hours. That has never happened (to me) here.
9. the QJ reputation is good with me.

I brought up the word "reputation" so I want to add that I frequent another board and like Lynda echo what she has heard about QJ. 

Maybe I was quick to come down on PJ (hey, I'm relatively new here and really don't know who he is) but I just saw it as so unecessary to what was an innocent thread topic by MT, who I really don't know also.

I realize these forums can be very hard to manage with all the different personalities but maybe people can be a little more tolerant of others positions here. That includes religion and politics. 

this seems like a good group of very experienced trippers and I enjoy the Q heavy aspect as I lean that way now myself.  And - it's much smaller membership than the other board is very appealing to me also. This board doesn't stray too much from the canoe camping topic which I appreciate.

Carry on.

I guess I should have been paying attention.  Should have known that if a discussion on ticks and poison ivy goes 4 pages, something else is going on.  Geesh, not even the courtesy of it's (my?) own thread.

I call a thing what it is.  I'm gonna go fill my bird-feeders.

me, I've always preferred Quality over Quantity - noise for the sake of noise isn't a "Quiet Journey"

this has always been a "quality" site in comparison to the many other forums I've looked at whether canoeing or backpacking or climbing oriented

but I don't mind poking fun at people either, for that matter.  sometimes, lately, I've found myself reluctant to add to a post if I don't really have anything constructive or destructive to add

I look at this site as a valuable resource that if you want to get something from, you should try to give something back.

I don't go to bars/coffee shops to discuss issues that don't pertain to paddling/camping etc, so I like the BTC forum and think now that it's opt in only, people especially visitors shouldn't be offended unless they choose to get into that mix.

IF any partisan/personal rancor comes out of the BTC and intrudes on the other forums, it's the Moderators job to stop it anyway they see fit.

I'm sure I've offended some, maybe many, but 99% of that wasn't intentional, the other 1%, I plead guilty as charged.
I pride myself on being the same in person as I appear to be here.  I also know that isn't necessary a plus in a PC world. Anyone who understands that not everyone is going to like/approve of them shouldn't have to PC think every post/comment because others are offended unless it's so egregious and then it's the Moderators job to police those problems.

I think the Moderators do/have done a remarkable job trying to balance someone's free speech rights without offending others, a near impossible task especially on-line.

I've been taken to task by the Moderators and respected their concerns even if I didn't agree with them.

Cliques, well every site has them. QJ seems to have more than a few people, myself included who don't feel the need to be in a "clique" but are not offended/ intimidated by people in a certain "circle".

I understand how some new to site feel they're treated harshly when they post a question, but IMHO that's a 2-way street. When I first became aware of QJ, I "lurked" for awhile to get the "lay of the land".
I took the time to check out ALL the links. I don't think it's being rude/harsh for someone to chastise a guest/newbie who asks for specific info that is readily available IF you do your homework instead of asking/expecting others to plan your route/tell you the best fishing holes etc.
I'm of the opinion that you should make a "deposit" no matter how small in the QJ "bank" before you ask for a large "withdrawal".

As a whole I think this site is a good or better than most. People here are very generous once you establish some familiarity with them and I've gotten and sent numerous PM's that prove that point.

I do think the emphasis is more on the Q, but there is more and more emphasis on other paddling destinations for those who want to expand their boundaries.
Maybe we need to look at someway to separate the BWCA/Q specific info in the General Discussions forum?
That might make BWCA people feel more welcome and consolidate that info.

All in all this is a great site/family, but like any social group, someone is bound to be mad/upset with someone/something.

Hell, if I quit every time I got pissed at someone at work, I'd be walking the unemployment line.
I liken this site to cable TV. Lot's of "channels" some maybe offensive, but you don't drop your subscription, you just don't turn to that channel.

Quote:

earned by the vagaries & vicissitudes of our QJ membership

hey Jimbo.

As a writer, I'm geeking out right now.

Nice.

- kypaddler

kypaddler wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 1:55pm:

Quote: earned by the vagaries & vicissitudes of our QJ membership hey Jimbo. As a writer, I'm geeking out right now. Nice. - kypaddler

(I had to look up 'halcyon days')

ST:  I don't think having a separate designation for BWCA would work now.  This forum has turned its back on the BW for so long that another forum has taken its place and that is probably OK.  The last time I remember a specifically BW post here, I answered and I believe one other person did.  It soon fell to the bottom of the page, and off the page, and I don't think that person has posted since.

It isn't a criticism, it's just a fact.  If you want to talk about the BWCA, this is no longer the place to come.  And the respondents to my earlier comments have already made that clear just since my original post. 

When I came here at first, I was pointed to this site by a photographer friend from Chelsea, Michigan.  He had seen my BWCA photography, and he suggested that I might enjoy Quiet Journey.  I dipped my feet gingerly into the water, and back then (probably about 2004 or 2005?) it was more balanced between the BWCA/Quetico.  Because we had been to both, we could comment with everyone and we felt like we fit in.  Now that we only go to the BW, and now that we don't travel on the same kind of adventures that we did when we were younger, we don't have much to contribute.

But this was my first canoeing website and I love it here.  I check in every single morning, first with the POD, and then with the general forum.  Occasionally I post, although rarely now.  I miss some of the people who used to come here regularly, and I am glad to see some of the friends we have met through the years who are still here.

If I gave the impression that I am upset with anything, I am not.  It is what it is.  db asked what the "reputation" of QJ is, and since I am now more active in other communities, and since I get feedback from people who know I am a loyal QJ member as well, I thought I would give my perspective. 

S_2 Hope you always share your pictures.

Maybe QJ got a rep from defending some of your smaller subjects  :)

Reputation?  Yeah, maybe.  But if the word applies, then it applies to the sister websites as well.  QJ has a lower percentage of the “I’ve got time to visit, let’s talk about . . .” type of threads in comparison.  You may “like” reading about the dog shows in the Twin Cities or seeing  who wished who a happy b-day, etc.  If so, then QJ might not fit your style.  Personally I am not compelled to congratulate someone for making their 10,000th post.  One well written article in the BWJ has more value.

Cliques? Yeah, maybe.  Fraternity might be a better word, but for the most part, I see the majority of the group preferring to stand individually.   We get a new starting line up every so often and the spike of activity establishes their acquaintance with one another.  The former line up might seem “quiet”, but consider that when any member acknowledges your informative posting, he/she is speaking for any number of members. 

The Search Police? Theirs is a thankless job.  These guys usually display great capacity to sniff out a poster who will gather their research here and then post their thesis there.  It helps the respondants on the other forum to increase their number of postings.

Political forum? It wasn’t always one.  Generally speaking, that is recent.  Once the momentum built, it quickly turned into a spectator sport.  I support the view of hiding it.  The drawback is that I’ve no place to tell you about my dog, my b-day, my drama, my whathaveyou.  Seriously tho, there were many good discussions there, which I miss.

My interests in the forums are trip planning, fishing, and gear.  The rest gets a scan.  Trip reports rate as a favorite.  I know they are time consuming to create.  Your investment is appreciated.  Next would be a good photo sequence complimented with notes.

The time I have to participate on the forums has been quite scarce these past few years.  Work demand is the biggest culprit.  My boss is a corporate VP who has never been to the BW/Q.  If he ever decides to go, I will direct him on the shortest route through Badwater Lake and into the Wolseley Swamp.  He will be advised to make as much noise as possible along the way.  Then I will sit back, image, and delight in typing away at all the possible scenarios of what became of him. 

-YB

Quote:

Political forum? It wasn't always one.  Generally speaking, that is recent.  Once the momentum built, it quickly turned into a spectator sport.  I support the view of hiding it.  The drawback is that I’ve no place to tell you about my dog, my b-day, my drama, my whathaveyou.  Seriously tho, there were many good discussions there, which I miss

I still think you can find that but like a "cable" show, the first few "episodes/posts" pretty well tells you where the discussion is headed.
Religion/politics/ major social issues are going to bring out the best/worst in people here as they do face to face.

People that frequent the BTC know that regardless of the views ( even conservative/religious ones), the majority of conflict comes about because someone gets personal insulting instead of arguing the merits of their position.
 
Everyone has succumbed to the heat of the moment at one time or the other.
Most apologize and try not to repeat, some need more than one "try". :-?

S_2, I didn't get the impression you were upset, just giving an honest answer to a posed question.
As for your feeling you have less to contribute do to your limited by circumstance travels, I have to respectfully disagree. ;)

Your pictures if you didn't label where they were taken could be anywhere in the North country and is one of the reasons I love the QJ and the POD.
Your eye for nature is a gift and few if any here do it any better.

YB,
IF your boss ever let's you set him up with a Q adventure, I have  a few people in mind for his paddling partner. ;D ;D

solotripper wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 3:53pm:

YB, IF your boss ever let's you set him up with a Q adventure, I have  a few people in mind for his paddling partner. ;D ;D

ST,

I swear the guy can douse a campfire by looking at it. 

Even so, it might just be the ticket for him and your old pals.

-YB

what was it that  that bumper sticker used to say?  ...oh,yeh.  "Mean people suck!"

and what was it that Mick Jagger said about not being able to take a joke?   Seems to me a little 'jacking around' through mild and transparent insults and taunts actually shows acceptance and even' back handed' respect. It is assumed the recipient recognizes that you are playing. ...playing is what you do with someone you like. ;)

Quote:

Even so, it might just be the ticket for him and your old pals.

YB, my ex old paddling buddies were not mean guys, just unable to commit and do any trip as planned. It was like herding cats. Funny at first, frustrating/madding the longer it went on.


Quote:

Seems to me a little 'jacking around' through mild and transparent insults and taunts actually shows acceptance and even' back handed' respect. It is assumed the recipient recognizes that you are playing. ...playing is what you do with someone you like.

Key word here is "transparent". When the person/people your "playing" with are not seeing it, then you need to back off.

My personal experience is that type A+ people/bosses, are good at giving but very poor at getting. ;)

Er, back to ticks... Was in Wabakimi area in June and don't recall any (even with lots of brush and moose sign).  Was usually wearing long pants with permithrin, though.  Skeeters, flies and noseeums got their pound of flesh, though!

wow quite the discussion going on here.

i also have to check QJ daily as part of my routine. its got its own tab that opens on the browser even!

i really appreciate MT starting threads. they are always insightful and promote discussion. plus, he always manages to come up with something new. i really miss the fishing tips of the month!

I am a relatively new member of Quiet Journey and enjoy what I find here. I have not paddled in Quetico or the BWCA in years so I do not ever comment on threads concerning them. I read the threads and if I could help someone I would. I visit different  forums and can see that each site over time attracts a like-minded core of participants. QJ had evolved into a "Quetico" site before I started visiting. My destination is usually WCPP but I have always felt welcome here. No matter where we paddle in central North America the equipment and skills are similar so there is a lot to learn on any of the sites.

IMO every site will end up with a "reputation" and that is not a bad thing as long as the reputation is not one of meanness or elitism. I have seen sites where certain postings would bring out the same biting criticism every time. On QJ a posting on using a double blade or a GPS does not draw such animosity. I hope this thread has given everyone a gentle prod to be courteous and to examine our words before hitting "Post Message."

Phoenix wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2013 at 2:05am:

Wow!. I've been a paying member (voluntarily, I might add) for only about 3 years now. The main reasons I joined QJ are: (1) the information posted here is generally very useful and deals in detail I can find nowhere else with one of the few areas in North America I truly love - namely, Quetico. (2) compared to other boards I have visited or participated on, QJ appears to be well moderated and VERY civilized. I've have had personal PMs with a number of the members and found them to be very generous and helpful and pleasant to converse with. Yes, QJ is very Quetico (or further north) centric - as Linda says - but that is exactly what I'm looking for. I would have no problem with more posts dealing with the Boundary Waters, by the way. For what it's worth, that's my perspective.

Mine too.  (And didn't even know there was a political forum.)

Quote:

(And didn't even know there was a political forum.)

The BTC forum can be about anything politics included.
If someone doesn't want to engage on subjects that are controversial, they don't have to click-on the subject.

Sometimes the title can be mis-leading, but a quick look pretty well tells you if it's for you or not.
I still fail to understand why people are offended when the read a forum subject they don't improve of. Like cable TV, take a quick peek and then "turn the channel" if you find the content offensive.

I suspect in some cases and it's been described that way, it's like a bad car wreck that you slow down to see initially and then cringe with regret when the view offends your sensibilities.

  IF it "bleeds" over into the other forums, the moderators have the responsibility/option to set the guilty parties straight. :thumbup

Where is this BTC forum?

BillConner wrote on Oct 24^th, 2013 at 5:01pm:

Where is this BTC forum?

Bottom right hand corner where it says Forum Jump. Scroll down until you see Back to Civilization*
You need to opt in to view/participate.

You know...I've looked for that at the bottom of my screen at the Forum Jump....and it doesn't appear to be an option on my dropdown list....maybe I need to kick in another donation.. :D

HighnDry wrote on Oct 24^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

You know...I've looked for that at the bottom of my screen at the Forum Jump....and it doesn't appear to be an option on my dropdown list....maybe I need to kick in another donation.. :D

I think you need something like 8 posts and 5 bucks to place out pay to play status. What anyone does with that information is up to them. Inuk mileage may vary.




Quote:

Where is this BTC forum?

Wait, ahhhhhmmmm. OOh! OOOH! I think I got this one! Part of the reason this forum is seen differently by different people is, in a very real way, all my fault.

It's in the same place it always was except I doubt there is any official reference to it anymore if you didn't opt in. For a while, just the title of the current thread being visible generated complaints so that only lasted for a month or two. By that time BTC was hated so passionately that even the post that explained where it went is now invisible and the invitation to access was by request only was removed after a few months of no requests either way.

I get it but I don't. Even a few folks that complained about it the loudest wanted access to it. No one else really requested access after the initial rush of maybe two dozen people and there is really only a handful that actually ever say anything so no biggie. I'm a bit of a couch politics junky ... so if anyone wants to play (and it is basically politics only now) another opinion is always welcome. If anyone want's in, let me know. Change your mind, I'll be glad to make it disappear for you again. Participating members have the (MTNR) designation above their picture on the left. As I recall, posts in that forum are not included your post count and it's not cliquey at all IMO.

And for what it's worth, an open mind and/or thick skin is a plus everywhere.



I always wanted QJ to resemble a real trip so here are three things to keep in mind.

1- You guys all know there is a BW portage database on QJ with more entries than the Q database - right?

2- I think it was ten years ago that I first began asking for donations. I wanted to call it quits on the forum and was looking for an excuse to do so. Since then, I have considered this forum to be YOUR forum. Be the change YOU want to see or shut up and paddle damn it!

3- About 30 years ago, as I paddled out at the end of a particularly challenging trip for me (at the time) using "never again, never again, never again" as cadence for every stroke of the paddle for miles 'n miles before the take-out....... I haven't missed a year since but for those few hours, you couldn't have paid me enough to do the same thing again.

Are there any former members of the CCBB listserve left? I loved that forum and I still kind-of miss it. To this day I'm not exactly sure what killed it. I miss the solotripping forum too and will confess being a little bitter but I do kinda understand why that one went away. There are other forums that have come and gone. I started working on a QJ forum after the CCBB got hacked and remained broken for a while. Timing is important too.

Bottom line - the basics should be common knowledge by now but I will agree that no one on QJ falls all over themselves welcoming new folks to QJ.



Quote:

"I swear the guy can douse a campfire by looking at it. "

What a great line! And thanks for mentioning something I had forgotten all about YB. All I know for sure is this is a lot more interesting than discussing big boy pants again. (Oh c'mon. It's gotta be funny to someone. If you ain't flying you probably ain't trying hard enough.)

FWIW - I don't find it in forum jump.  May be a good thing.

Jimbo wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 9:56pm:

"That's not to say that we don't need to change things every once in awhile; I'm sure we do" ... "And now we are what we are... for better or for worse."  "If folks have something to say, we'll listen & address it." ... "when I listen to members about issues, about all I'm hearing is... crickets."  If we have significantly deviated from some theoretical "norm" in some meaningful way (good or bad), I suppose the Mod team needs to share some "credit."

Maybe we should change, but we won't. We will listen to you, but we won't really listen.

Proscription of personal attacks is not a "theoretical" norm. It is an explicit rule for (afaik) all discussion boards like QJ. In QJ's case, the user agreement for these forums states "You also agree not to post any material which is inaccurate, defamatory, abusive, vulgar, hateful, ..." This was discussed at length a couple of years ago, and led to the quarantining of BTC. Things seemed to have been pretty clean around here since then. Til now.

IMO the exchange earlier in this thread between PJ and MT was clearly defamatory and abusive, and should have been deleted by the moderators from the first post. At the time, I figured maybe people were off canoeing and this accidentally slipped by. But your post has me concerned that things haven't really changed, and we're headed towards more BTC-type attacks in the canoe boards, not just in the religion-and-politics threads.

As a great American statesman once said "I have seen the enemy, and he is us."

Too many cliques?

Not so far as I can see. We all have something to share with others in QJ, and we all have something to learn from others. I have never sensed any barriers to this kind of exchange on QJ due to cliques. Yes, some people are interested in some topics and not in others, and sometimes the same people are interested in many of the same topics. But that's to be expected, and it doesn't mean those subgroups are cliques. In any case, the defining feature of all cliques is exclusion, and in QJ the excluders (if there are any) would seem to be hurt far more than the excludees.

Too much Q and not enough BW?

Well it's certainly true that the majority of active QJers seem to spend more time canoe tripping in Quetico than in BWCA. I think it's natural to expect that their trip reports, camping and fishing tips, shared experiences, and questions to the group deal more with Q than B-dub.

But posting takes time and effort: sites like QJ only work if a significant number of people donate their time in this way on a regular basis. If most QJers make their donations in the form of Quetico-focused posts, I'm grateful for what I get. bwca.com has been around for over ten years, and it's natural that many of the people willing and able to donate their time and BW expertise should gravitate there. I don't see any unfriendliness towards BWCA paddlers anywhere on QJ - rather the doors seem to me to be wide open to people willing to post on non-Quetico-related topics.

FWIW, just scanning the headers and menus on my current page, I count five references / links to Quetico and five to Boundary Waters. I'm finding it hard to see a problem here.

Relax Joe, whats wrong with a little good old fashioned defamatory abuse to stir the pot a little? Besides, when all was said and done there may have been some benefit. Sometimes what is needed is to grab someone, shake them, smack them around a little and then throw a bucket of cold water in their face before they "get it" (unfortunately the election is over  ;D ).

 

Joe is right.  We don't need anyone to stir the pot.  If you want to stir the pot go to BTC.

"Sometimes what is needed is to grab someone, shake them, smack them around a little …"
I guess you're trying to be amusing, MT, but what you're describing is actually abuse.

Westwood wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

Joe is right.  We don't need anyone to stir the pot.  If you want to stir the pot go to BTC.

Actually if I remember correctly I was not the one doing the stirring but rather being stirred. I was the one being smacked around a little. And all figuratively (your turn to not read more into something than was intended Kerry)......

So you saddle up, consider if someone has a point or not, towel the cold water off and move on.

The people in the eastern part of the country, specifically NY and NJ, have a reputation as being abrasive and obnoxious. I have dealt with them in my business for some 30 years as they gravitate towards what I do. What I have come to admire about them is their bluntness.......you know exactly where you stand. There is no subtlety, no guile. There is a way forward should there be differing perspectives. You know precisely where they are coming from.

And so, from my perspective at least, I prefer the one who may be harsh but honest versus the one who is smiling and saying soothing words while the knife is in the back.

What does this have to do with canoe country? Nothing I guess but neither has the entire last page.

Is it time to change the subject? I suppose it is.