Any advice on planning a fly-in trip starting at lac la croix, travelling up through sturgeon, and exiting eventually at Stanton?  In the early trip planning phase for 2014.  Our top concern is fishing.

Thinking 2nd week of June.  Thinking 7 nights/8 days - is this doable for 2 guys in their late 20's, allowing for plenty of fishing time?

thanks in advance.

Where is your drop-off point on LLC? 

Plan on going up the Maligne River to Sturgeon?

You have an outfitter picking you up at Stanton?

dd

I'm going to guess you start at Twin Falls and go up the Maligne River???

Exiting Stanton I'm also guessing your plan on using Deux Rivieres to go through Twin Lake. The river can be low, probably not, but have a plan B. The Pickerel River "B" chain can add some time to your trip.

Instead look at exiting Nym maybe. Going through Burntside/Jean or Lonely/Walter.

Don't the planes normally do the drop off over by the LLC Ranger Station?  I wouldn't assume they'll drop him off near Bell Island/Twin Falls... and my guess is that is why DentonDoc asked the question.  If it IS at the Ranger Station, then John has a substantial paddle on big old LLC to reach Bell Island. If it's me looking at that stretch, I'm seriously considering arranging a tow across the lake with either Zup's or Ed Ottertail (if you're brave & if he is even still in business... which is mostly problematic, year-to-year, based upon the condition of his boat). Anyway, LLC is big and can be pretty nasty when that breeze gets blowing.  John needs to ask where they are setting him down.

Jim J, I'm not sure I'd be terribly concerned about Deux Rivieres that early in the year (2nd week of June), although I'll allow that it CAN be the case if the snow melt isn't all that much.  Later in the year, however, Deux Rivieres is definitely more problematic, of course.  Jim J's advice to "have a Plan B" is sound.  Always best to check with park officials (or recent trip reports here on QJ) just before paddling into that area.  However, I'd almost be more concerned about the front end of the trip with the flow of the Maligne coming AT me.  In a big snow melt year, it can be somewhat challenging near some of the portages.  Again, check w/park officials or w/QJ trip reports.

7 nights/8 days for a couple guys in decent shape in their 20's?  I foresee see much of an issue, other than the two already mentioned... which, most of the time, won't be issues.  You probably even have a couple "layover days" to spare.  Of course, John would need to arrange pick up at a pre-appointed time in Stanton but that is likely included with whatever package deal he got from the fly-in service.  John, on the oddball chance that you were planning to do a DIY & leave a car in Stanton, just be advised that - unless you have Canadian license plates - you can't do it.

Sounds like a nice route for that time of year.  Don't cut yourself too short on your last day of paddling, however.  If I'm you, I'm camping on the north side of Pickerel on the last night.  Have been caught having to cross that body of water on the last day &, believe me, it ain't any fun when the wind gets to howling out of the west/northwest!

John, use the QJ PCD resource to plot out probable campsites en route.  If you have interest in fishing for specific species, let us know what they are & some of the veterans here can IM you with some suggestions re: fishing holes.  As you might expect, that information can be tough to come by via public posts.

Just a few thoughts from the peanut gallery.

Jimbo   8-)

DentonDoc wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 2:01am:

Where is your drop-off point on LLC?  Plan on going up the Maligne River to Sturgeon? You have an outfitter picking you up at Stanton? dd

Was thinking of using canoe canada outfitters...I used them once before.  We entered at stanton last time; so I'm assuming they can pick up there. 

We were planning on going up the Maligne to Sturgeon.  Not exactly sure where exact drop off would be?  I saw one map showing a drop off from float plane down by hilly island; we were hoping though they could drop us off closer to mouth of maligne by the reservation.

Jimbo wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 7:12pm:

Don't the planes normally do the drop off over by the LLC Ranger Station?  I wouldn't assume they'll drop him off near Bell Island/Twin Falls... and my guess is that is why DentonDoc asked the question.  If it IS at the Ranger Station, then John has a substantial paddle on big old LLC to reach Bell Island. If it's me looking at that stretch, I'm seriously considering arranging a tow across the lake with either Zup's or Ed Ottertail (if you're brave & if he is even still in business... which is mostly problematic, year-to-year, based upon the condition of his boat). Anyway, LLC is big and can be pretty nasty when that breeze gets blowing.  John needs to ask where they are setting him down. Jim J, I'm not sure I'd be terribly concerned about Deux Rivieres that early in the year (2nd week of June), although I'll allow that it CAN be the case if the snow melt isn't all that much.  Later in the year, however, Deux Rivieres is definitely more problematic, of course.  Jim J's advice to "have a Plan B" is sound.  Always best to check with park officials (or recent trip reports here on QJ) just before paddling into that area.  However, I'd almost be more concerned about the front end of the trip with the flow of the Maligne coming AT me.  In a big snow melt year, it can be somewhat challenging near some of the portages.  Again, check w/park officials or w/QJ trip reports. 7 nights/8 days for a couple guys in decent shape in their 20's?  I foresee see much of an issue, other than the two already mentioned... which, most of the time, won't be issues.  You probably even have a couple "layover days" to spare.  Of course, John would need to arrange pick up at a pre-appointed time in Stanton but that is likely included with whatever package deal he got from the fly-in service.  John, on the oddball chance that you were planning to do a DIY & leave a car in Stanton, just be advised that - unless you have Canadian license plates - you can't do it. Sounds like a nice route for that time of year.  Don't cut yourself too short on your last day of paddling, however.  If I'm you, I'm camping on the north side of Pickerel on the last night.  Have been caught having to cross that body of water on the last day &, believe me, it ain't any fun when the wind gets to howling out of the west/northwest! John, use the QJ PCD resource to plot out probable campsites en route.  If you have interest in fishing for specific species, let us know what they are & some of the veterans here can IM you with some suggestions re: fishing holes.  As you might expect, that information can be tough to come by via public posts. Just a few thoughts from the peanut gallery. Jimbo   8-)

thanks for the reply

Yeah, I don't know where the exact drop point is over there.   I don't know if its 1 specific place, or if they can tailor it.  Agreed paddling north up the open waters LLC would suck, would need tow if thats the case.

I'm hoping deux would not suck that time of year and would be passable due to higher water.  Never been there, but reviews I read made it seem like mid-late summer sucks, but spring-early summer is passable in canoe.  Is that the case?

RE: you comment on paddling up stream.  We thought of this.  However, reviews I read on the Maligne made it seem like its slower moving (not sure if the case).  We thought about doing the trip in the reverse direction, but we thought the headwind on Sturgeon could be worse then the current on Maligne.  Thoughts?

We were hoping to get to scripture in 2 days, and base camp up around there fishing, maybe go in to surrounding areas for day-trips, like fred or russell. 

Thanks for your heads up on stanton - we will be using an outfitter though.  Car will stay with the outfitter. 

One more item I'll throw out there.  I mentioned we have a party size of 2.  There is a chance it could turn in to 3.  We aren't too keen on having 3 in a single canoe, nor do we like the idea of one paddling alone and doing portages with 3 people and 2 canoes.

As such, if we do get a 3rd, we were considering hiring a guide as a 4th.  Anyone ever use a guide before?  It would be nice to keep the canoes 2 and 2...and depending on how much service the guide provides it could potentially free up more time for fishing.

I've only used guides in canada on lodge trips, and the guides would be used for one day on a week long trip (not the whole week).  Anyone ever use one on a trip like this?  Is it reasonable to expect with an extra hand around the campsite we'll get more fishing time in?  What level of service is reasonable to expect?

thanks guys

[edit] I realize the downside of this is it partially diminishes the allure of "roughing it" on your own in the woods.  That said, we are still exploring the option to prevent a group size of just 3. 

I guess I'll throw this thought out there too. Is maligne route even worth it? Battling upstream and open water in llc/sturgeon. Or is it not worth it, and we should save cost of float plane and do a Stanton or nym loop down to access the same fred/Russell/scripture area, round-tripping back out through the north.

Again, any advice you have please keep in mind our primary goal is accessing remote areas for fishing.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

John,

Not sure what your disagreement with 3 in a canoe is - tandem = more freedom, less restrictions, smaller craft, easier fishing, already have the canoes - but let me offer some thoughts.  I had always thought/prefered tandem and still do for an even number.  Some experience tripling it gave me new perspective. 

A tandem and a solo would slow things down, especially in poor weather or wind.  Your solo would also have a harder time keeping the pace/wear out faster.  Use a Wenonah Minnesota III, not a smaller craft and there is plenty of room for 3 plus gear for 9 days.  I've done it, just leave the kitchen sink at home.  Two Granite Gear #4's and Superior 1 will fit behind the bow paddler and still keep the weight low, then add a small pack (BWJ Guide pack) in front of the stern paddler.  Three motors in one canoe = faster travel on the water = more fishing time/camp time/whatever time.  It is also faster on the portages, loading, unloading, etc.  Less gear overall and more backs carrying less gear = fewer trips across a portage.  A Minn III is only about 5 lbs heavier than a Minn II, but 37lbs lighter than two of them.  Trolling is not that much more challenging with 3....everyone trolls opposite their paddle side.  You would save $$$ renting only one canoe and even more not hiring a 4th paddler, which if you need/want the guide services that is fine.

I would not settle for any smaller boat for 3.  Made the mistake of taking a Bell Northwoods (18.5') into Wabakimi in 2012, as the outfitter did not have the Souris River for 3 they said they would have.  It was not set up properly, making the trip very crowded until we ate our way trough most of the food pack.  The third seat was smack in the middle of the boat and made loading hard.  The Bell is a fantastic canoe and performed superbly, even in some serious waves we shouldn't have been paddling in, but it was just cramped for 3 IMHO.

pd

john_galt wrote on Nov 25^th, 2013 at 11:20pm:

I guess I'll throw this thought out there too. Is maligne route even worth it? Battling upstream and open water in llc/sturgeon.

I would reverse the route and go from Stanton to LLC. The current in the Maligne is a given, so why plan to pull upstream that far? The wind is likely to be in your face at least half of the trip, and the current plus headwind would be a chore.

I don't have a map in front of me, but I'd compare the distance from where the river enters LLC to both the village and the ranger station. CCO can also pick you up on LLC via truck, which would save you the cost of the flight, assuming canoe time is equal... just a thought.

Ranger

My 2 cents. I would use a 3-man canoe, and plan to rotate seating assignments.
I would head south from Nym to fish Jesse and lakes enroute to Sturgeon. You could base camp a few days on Sturgeon then do the Deax. I would skip the exit at Stanton and continue to French. Chances are good that you'll experience the thrill of a rising tailwind, another reason for a big canoe. :) :(

Jimbo, I talked to Ed this spring and it sounds like he's done doing tows. I also was assuming a plane could land close to Bell Island, not the Indian village. I've had Deux Riviere be a problem on the opening of the permit season. Must have been a low snow year, and I got caught walking it 3 weeks after using it OK. I just don't trust it anymore.

PD, Is right about the Min III, tight but it works. I used an Itasca from Anderson's fitted with a 3rd seat last fall, not as good IMO.

JG, Old Salt has a good trip idea unless there's a compelling reason for your original trip plan.

As of now we only have 2 "for-sure," and the 3rd is a maybe, so a decision might not even be necessary.  That said, I'm surprised by all of the advice for a 3 person canoe.  Just seems like it would be really tight, and too difficult for 3 people to fish at once.  Especially of one of the guys is big/tall type. 

What about this - If money wasn't a concern, and we weren't really worried about the expense of hiring a guide as a 4th, would you still have the same opinion?  Our concern is just getting the best possible fishing experience for the money.  I don't get to make these trips that often because of work, so when I do the cost isn't really a concern.  The last time I was in quetico will have been 13 years ago; the last time I went on any fishing trip will be 4 years.  :'(

Regards to the route - we're open to Old Salt's suggested trip - we had considered this too.  We also considered doing completely different things (clay to Kawnipi, exiting either poets or Saganaga).  I guess the deciding factor would be this - how is the fishing in the maligne/lower sturgeon???  The last trip we did Stanton-to-Nym, so we are familiar with that area and the pickerel narrows.  Fishing was great there, but we thought we would go deeper into the park and attempt to get access to more remote fishing this time. 

If you guys think the fishing will be "pretty much the same" or "even better" doing Old Salt's suggested route, then I think we wouldn't bother with the cost/effort of going through maligne.  We would also consider any other suggestions.  Thoughts?

Thanks again.

John -

Three to a canoe is a personal preference thing, for sure.  Personally, unless one or two of the three were kids or adolescents, I wouldn't do it.  I have the same concerns as you regarding the limitations it places on fishing.  Nevertheless, I've seen Kingfisher make three-in-a-canoe work extremely well.  A lot of the earlier comments re: speed & portaging are more valid than not but they may not necessarily pertain to MY paddling party (or yours).  I LIKE paddling my solo & I'll elect that option every time when travelling with an odd numbered party.  I'll keep up with tandem (even if it kills me!).

If fishing & getting deeper into the park (presumably for even better fishing & solitude) are your main objectives, there are any number of routes that work well with the number of days you have allotted.  "Crossing" the park or a "fly-in" isn't really required.  There ARE fishing hot spots, of course, but you can find a lot of information about fishing by: 1) checking old trip reports re: areas of the park of interest to you, and 2) soliciting info on this forum & on the fishing forum (& requesting IM versus public responses).  My experience is that by going 2-3 solid portages deep into the park (from almost any entry point) and you can be into some pretty good solitude & fishing.

Too bad you're not headed into the park two weeks earlier.  My 28 year-old son & I have similar objectives & we're heading in for about the same length of time.  We could plan to share a campsite one night & swap fish tales.  We've met many a QJ'er in much the same manner.

Let us know what you really want to fish for & maybe that will spark some ideas re: how you might modify your route.

Jimbo   8-)

John,

If you are hiring a guide, who just happens to be your 4th person, the number of canoes ceases to be an issue IMO.  If it's the fishing you're after, you're paying for the expertise.  Find a good recommended guide and start exploring some planning options with the guide as to routes, species, remote lakes, etc. - THAT is what you pay a guide for.  I've never used one, so I don't have any recommendations.

As far as a 3 man boat, I have had very few trouble fishing 3 at a go.  A tangle or two now and then when trolling, but few.  Casting or jigging should be no issue with a few ground rules about etiquette and safety.  Normally I stern and my bow and duffer will paddle on the same side and fish the other when trolling.  Again, a little coordination is good, like everyone else reels in when a fish is on...though we have had triple hook-ups on occasion!  It gets exciting. 

As far as room goes, big and tall may be a challenge, but not much more than in a tandem.  For a tall or large person, the bow is always tight, esp. leg room width-wise.  The tallest should stern for most comfort....IF a competent paddler.  Try a MINN III out locally with 3 if you have the ability to do so or at least go see one at a dealer - and take your gear.  Leg room in the center can be tight, but you can stretch your legs out on either side of the pack ahead of you, which is in front of the portage yoke.  All the storage is b/w the yoke and bow paddler.  Three large packs will fit fine IF you practice TMS control (Too Much SH......tuff) - ie no chairs, one shared tackle box, no coolers, easy on the 'fresh' foods, light weight gear, etc.  On this summer's 9 day for 3, we got three people's personal gear and two tents in one GG Superior 1 (I'd go with a GG#4 next time), two 30L food barrels side by side in a GG#4 and the rest of the crew gear (fuel, stoves, saw, rope, tableware, pots, rain tarp, etc.) in a traditional Food pack.  The BWJ Guide pack held the tackle bag, water bottles, first aid kit, toilet kit, lunch, rain gear and bug repellent/sun screen.  It sat b/w the duffer seat and rear thwart, providing somewhat of a backrest for the duffer (bonus!).  If you take a lot of 'conveniece' items or excessiver tackle, it will get pretty tight.  I'll allow 4 people and two canoes does give you quite a break on the room for gear. 

Most of my food is 'grocery store' stuff carefully selected, so don't think it's all light weight backpacking foods.  I've elminated all but a few tasty dehydrated desert items.  Most of my crew will claim they eat better on the trip than at home.  Fresh steaks, Chicken with tomato basil pesto, eggs/bacon, Salmon pesto pasta with olives, artichokes and sun dried tomatoes, fish chowder, hot apple cobbler, tuna/apple flatbread sandwiches, french toast...just to whet your appetite.

I think if you don't get up there often and are 'pulling out all the stops' it can make a guide's experience worth it for you.  There should be plenty of advice on that here on QJ too.  And if you want to maximize the fishing...minimize the stuff and simplify your menu.

pd

Let me add to my 3 person canoe experience. It was more out of necessity. Neither of the other 2 paddlers were capable of steering a tandem, keep it moving in a head wind, nor strong enough to carry a boat over a portage, or paddle a solo.

Previously I had soloed with other 2 guys in a tandem and the speed difference was too much to make for a pleasant trip, they were the slow ones in the tandem. I was going later in the season with two gals and I knew a solo and a tandem wouldn’t work. So I rented a 3 man canoe. After doing that for the last 2 years I’m really hoping to get another strong tripper to join us on our next trip. 3 man canoes work, but not my favorite way to go. When fishing it was best if I just paddled the stern and let the other 2 fish.

But fishing from a solo can be frustrating too if it’s at all breezy and you’re out in the open.

JB, if you’re using an outfitter talk to him for some ideas. If you want to fly-in, think about a Mack Lake entry, exit French or Nym. You’d be going down stream, see some neat country. If you need a 4th and cost isn’t a problem, a guide should put you on fish and be a big help. Most posters have a strong DIY bias, but guides can be a very positive experience IMO. Take notes.

Granted I have limited experience vs 2 strong tandem paddlers but I have not noticed a huge difference between solo vs tandem. Perhaps you could put the 2 weaker paddlers in a tandem and 1 stronger paddler in a solo and get acceptable results.

Wind might factor into the equation if your going during shoulder months. Just a thought........

I'm not so keen on 3 in a boat......that could get old real quick. Plus with the solo anyone could take it out whenever they wanted without requiring cooperation from someone else who might be interested in doing something else. Flexibility!

"I guess I'll throw this thought out there too. Is maligne route even worth it? Battling upstream and open water in llc/sturgeon. Or is it not worth it, and we should save cost of float plane and do a Stanton or nym loop down to access the same fred/Russell/scripture area, round-tripping back out through the north.

Again, any advice you have please keep in mind our primary goal is accessing remote areas for fishing."

if you do the Malign River, I agree with Ranger's advice to
reverse your planned route and go downstream rather than upstream.  2nd week of June, the water can still be very fast, and there are a half dozen or so "rapids" to negotiate - all but one or two have portages around them, but may be tricky to approach in high water - easier to go downstream.

Is it worth it ?  is just a matter of opinion I guess - its a nice route, but not really remote - LLC First Nations may be using Three Mile Lake as a landing strip, and the campsites in that vicinity are over used for that reason - if that is where you would fly in to, it would eliminate paddling LLC and about half of the river.  Fishing is supposed to be good on the river though I don't recall ever catching anything except below the last waterfall pouring into LLC (miniamal effort there) - you could do a side trip to Poobah if so inclined. 

If you are more interested in using a fly-in as a way to access more remote areas, you might consider flying in using the Mack Lake entry - actually they land/drop off in Clay Lake outside the park, and you travel down greenwood creek to wawiag river - that would give you access to Mack Lake via upstream on Mack Creek for one or two days, then travel back down the wawiag river to Kawnipi, and then out thru the Poets Chain to Russell - from there you have 2 or 3 options to get back North - say vial Lonely Lake to Nym takeout, or via Deux Riv to Pickeral, or via "B" chain to Pickeral and out at Stanton Bay if you are using a canadian outfitter.

I'd suggest calling the park HQ and asking them what lakes the LLC FIrst Nations are using for motorized/fly-in in 2014.  That might influence where you decide to go.  might be Poobah, or Sturgeon.  I've never done a fly-in trip, so not sure of the logistics - the HQ shoudl be able to answer questions about that and point you in the right direction towards who culd fly in.

Also keep in mind, if you used a MN outfitter for the fly-in, you would need an RABC to cover the border crossing issue - can't recall if there is still a customs station on LLC or not, just something to consider - my view, its easier to drive across the border, esp if you would be using a canadian outfitter

wind on the big lakes is just something you can't predict - often at that time of year, bad weather comes in from the NE, so going east is a chore - but storms can come in from NW just as well - prevaiing winds are out of the West, but I've never been able to count on that working very well.

I have been on a couple of trips where a Minnesota II was used as a 3 person.  Very crowded, and less fishing freedom, both in movement and choice of water to cover.  It is an advantage in portages, but that is it.  A good paddler in a solo can keep up with a tandem unless both paddlers in the tandem and strong and experienced.  When I solo I use a twin blade break-down canoe paddle as my primary travel paddle, and a single blade for fishing and navigating rapids.  The twin blade paddles are very efficient.   

It sounds like one of your questions is, which lakes offer the best fishing? I have my own list, which can be had with a pm. What I've found is that most good lakes are clustered with other good lakes. Tell me what your after. I'm also going to suggest a small portable fishfinder.