mastertangler wrote on May 1^st, 2014 at 8:50pm:

. . . for those who want a piece of fluorocarbon added to their braid.

What advantage would I have with this set-up (Canadian shield fishing please.)  I used a tippet when I flyfished simply for diameter and visibility sake and I've used a steel leader for toothy's sake but, and correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't this reduce sensitivity?

Anyway, what's your line and why?

P.s.  Rapala makes a terrible line

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Depends. Talking about fly fishing, if not likely to catch pike, I use a leader with about eight pound test. If likely to catch pike, I use a titanium leader that I construct myself.

Otherwise, I use line that corresponds to my rod/rod reel combination. For bait casters, that's usually 12 pound test. For spinning rigs, usually eight pound test. 

The age old question.......does it matter? Is 8lb braid/superline with its skinny diameter more visible than an 8lb fluorocarbon leader?

I honestly don't know and certainly don't fish enough small test braided line in the north to render an informed opinion. What I do know is I absolutely tore the big Walleyes up on a reef in Basswood using 8lb mono and a week later couldn't buy a single bite on braid even though I was marking fish.........(of course that means nothing, they might not of been chewing but thats another story).

I wonder what the pros do? Could 8ft of stiff, dense, low stretch Florocarbon reduce sensitivity? Maybe a teeny tiny bit? I fish mostly straight stretchy mono and can still set the hook just before they bite  ;)

Oh, I almost forgot......I like Trilene green XT, performs well on spinners in smaller lb tests with knot strength being excellent when used in conjuction with a tie fast tool..... and I also like co-polymer lines like Gamma....... and I like 50lb power pro for pike fishing. I have had incredibly bad luck with various fluorocarbon casting lines like vanish although I know a lot of pro Bass fishermen who wouldn't fish without a fluorocarbon line so go figure  ......    

Since I am using an ultrathin foot long Nickel-Titanium leader which is directly ahead of my lure for 90% of my fishing I figure that the visibility of my line ahead of that doesn't really matter. I use a line that I like to work with and for me that's Fireline Crystal.
For jigging, when I tie directly to the jig I think there might be an advantage to using 6-8 or even 4 lb test mono.
Since jigging is such a small part of the overall fishing that I do while canoeing I am just using the same 8lb Fireline that I use for trolling.

I seem to always use these three, depending on the rod and technique.

STREN Lo-Vis Green mono. 6LB test - jigging with my lightweight rod, which is mostly what I do, but some times I will troll with this.

Berkley FireLine 8LB test -trolling mostly, I seem to like mono more for jigging.

Berkley XT 10 -12LB test - sometimes I have a medium action Ugly Stick rigged with this for trolling.

If I only bring 2 rods its always the light weight with 6LB Stren and one of the other two, or sometimes both (I have a 3 self imposed rod limit). Deciding which to leave at home is tough.

One time I used my 5ft. Crappie rod rigged with FireLine for Smallmouth...that was fun.

I used to use mono (we all did, right?) but since the no stretch, small diameter, no memory super lines came out, I just can't go back to it.  When the super lines allow you to feel a fish fart 20 feet away, why keep using it?  The flourocarbon lines are basically a sinking monofilament right?  I know it has low stretch but it also has tremendous memory and you can't cast it.  Is it a 'knot' thing?

I must correct myself. I tried to make a comparison earlier between success using braid and success using mono on a reef on Basswood.

But it was a totally unfair comparison. The evening with the braid was not with skinny light line braid such as being advocated here but rather something more akin to rope (that being 30lb power pro). Plus I was using quite a bit larger lure than the deep tail dancer which I had used to such good effect the week before. Had I used an 8lb or even a 6lb braid and the same tail dancer perhaps I could make an honest comparison.

I had caught 2 walleyes right at 6lb earlier in the week on the 30 power pro ........one hit a musky spinner from shore (dual in line 8/0 treble hooks/ straight 30 braid/no leader) and one hit a large deep diving bomber in Rainbow trout pattern. They sure didn't want anything to do with the big bomber  the evening in question however. I would of liked to have been with someone that particular evening to see if something else would of worked. The fish were there, off the bottom and looked to be catchable.

I probably need to give the little braid a go.......see how it looks in the water.

FWIW......Florocarbon supposedly has the same something or other refractory index as water meaning that it becomes more or less invisible in water. Its abrasion resistance is better than straight mono and supposedly it doesn't absorb water. It is also slightly denser and sinks a bit faster. They keep tinkering with the formulation and quite a few strides have been made.

I have not been keen on straight fluorocarbon fishing line however and have had numerous knot issues. But it is likely just me since a great majority of tournament anglers use it. I use it primarily via leader material and have great confidence in heavier lb tests but my faith sinks rather rapidly when using it in light line applications. I know several pro bass anglers who are advocates but I don't personally know any tournament walleye guys. I probably need to subscribe to in-fisherman again, I have been out of the loop for a while now.

PhantomJug wrote on May 1^st, 2014 at 10:07pm:

P.s.  Rapala makes a terrible line

im very interested in your experience with rapala line that you say its not good. many years ago, i used rapala tough 4lb line for EVERYTHING. i thought it was the best stuff ever invented, 2nd being cortland camouflage line. then they stopped making it and the pure fishing conglomerate came out with suffix. since then, ive only used suffix line, and i really like it. both the braid and the mono.

ive actually been using 8lb test suffix seige for all my applications lately, as it takes more punishment in the rivers i fish near my home and the rocks up north. it also gives me a little more confidence in avoiding bite-offs when trolling (tying right to the lure, no leader).

i used to always use 4lb test, especially when fishing live bait on pressured waters, but up in canada where the fish arent very seasoned in terms of seeing lures, and when you can only fish artificials, the bites tend to be more reactionary. ive found with plastics, the hits tend to be pretty substantial. so i dont feel that the line makes as much difference as it would if the bite was lighter.

@MT, about the bass pros using fluorocarbon... ive never been impressed with any of their fishing 'skill' and they seem to favor extremely high pound test line and big weighted jigs and winch the fish in. on the highly pressured waters they fish, maybe it has some sort of advantage, but i feel its more marketing than anything. 

jaximus wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 12:32am:

@MT, about the bass pros using fluorocarbon... ive never been impressed with any of their fishing 'skill' and they seem to favor extremely high pound test line and big weighted jigs and winch the fish in. on the highly pressured waters they fish, maybe it has some sort of advantage, but i feel its more marketing than anything.

I dont "follow" the Bass Pro circuit Jax and I don't go to the weigh ins even though they are down the block with the big stage being set up in the Wal mart parking lot with pro anglers from all over the country attending with real big bucks on the line. Having said that I am friends with 3 Bass pro anglers and I guide 1 guy salt water fishing. The guy I take salt water fishing is a delight to bust my ass for......As I work the aluminum oars (mounted on pillow block bearings..Totally silent..nice set up but I digress) and ease us around the mangroves my pro angler can pitch lures up underneath the mangrove bushes without continually getting tangled in the bushes and he can hit spots the size of a quarter. I thought I was pretty good but he blows me away. And he makes me look good........we catch 'em. The other guys, not so much.

BassMaster magazine sends me their magazine complimentary, I don't subscribe. If you think Bass Pros only do one thing you are sadly and profoundly mistaken my dear friend. The Magazine is basically a promo for the world of professional Bass fishing but the variety of techniques, equipment to implement those techniques and discussions of patterns is quite impressive. The articles are written by the circuit Pros.

These guys are making their living in a competitive environment. If you don't catch more than the next guy you don't eat. You had not only better be good (lots and lots of guys are good) but you better be the best, and you better be the best on a wide variety of waters and conditions.

Hey, I get to put your Superman Jointed Believer to the test this summer..........Whoo-hoo!  8-)

jaximus wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 12:32am:

but i feel its more marketing than anything.

I was watching the Kentucky Derby today and noticed logos on the jockeys and that made me wonder, how much do professional fisherman get paid to wear those jackets?
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I'm shocked, shocked to find that marketing is going on here!

----
The last line I bought was on 07. Pline Floroclear. It says "fluorocarbon coated" whatever that is. Works for me.

i suppose i should clarify my statements as i came off fairly harsh.

the pros are good at what they do; im in awe of some of the casts they make, as you describe.

i guess i feel there are 2 types of fishing, finesse and power(tournament) fishing

when fishing in a competition against a clock, you have to hunt for active fish. you cover more water, move faster, use heavier baits, search baits, etc. active fish will chase a bait that falls faster, so you can get away with heavier jigs which are much easier to cast/skip/aim. basically they are quickly searching for biters.

im not discounting the skill that it takes to do that, i just view the skill in making neutral fish bite as a higher form of fishing.

i would compare tournament fishing to trolling. trolling covers water and picks up active fish.

finesse. jigging picks up more neutral fish. lighter baits, smaller baits, slower presentations. you work a spot over. after im done with a spot im confident there are no fish left or they will refuse to be caught. its too risky to fish this way in a tournament cuz if the spots you pick (as there will be fewer) arent holding fish that particular day, you will run out of time.

Ahh, good clean fun over the morning breakfast. You know the ancient Greeks, one of the more advanced civilizations in their time, would spend quite a bit of time "discussing" the merits of various subjects. Of course their interests were of the hefty variety >  philosophy, the sciences etc. etc not something so mundane as fishing.

And in the book "How to win friends and influence people" the author suggests never telling folk they are wrong, obviously I don't subscribe  ;). (unless of course it is someone who will directly impact your life, like a boss, a spouse, a working associate or........... a canoeing partner 8-)  ).

Now that I have my disclaimer firmly in place I can let loose with my other barrel.......Your just wrong Jax...... but not entirely.......yes they do run and gun and get reaction bites as it is vitally important that they get a limit but after that is achieved is when they make their money. They go to specific spots and work that spot with what they think will work. One friend told me of a pattern he used........2" power pro crayfish, 1/16 ounce jig head and he was pitching docks with it. And what shall we say about longtime tournament pro and legend guido hibdon who is known for his finesse fishing tactics?

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Jax, You are lumping the tournament guys together as if they were some sort of herd. The great thing about fishing is the creativity involved.......and certainly the guys who do it for a living want to put the big girls in the boat. If that means slow rolling a 3/4 oz spinnerbait in a flooded channel or using a shaky worm on 6lb test in some ultra clear impoundment that is what they are going to do. The guys you describe usually don't last to long if they are a one trick pony. I think you are selling them quite a bit short.

But to get back to the subject of line.......I thought it interesting on the video that Hibdon used a hi-vis braid but added the fluorocarbon. They all use the fluorocarbon and the point I was making is: they all use it because it works, if it didn't they wouldn't........they are not playing out there, it's serious business. You can go broke very quickly being a tournament fisherman. The question I would have is.....do the walleye pros use it as abundantly as the Bass pro guys. After all, tournament fishing is about putting big fish in the boat......not a pile of eaters who will munch most anything.   

Dammit guys.  Not sure what is so difficult about keeping a thread on topic.  Could you keep it to PM if you need to change subject?  Thanks.  It grows tiresome MT, it really does.   :thumbdown

---

whatever.....we obviously have differing concepts as to what makes for interesting commentary.

I thought I was making a point about line. That guys who fish for a living and are really, really good about putting big fish in the boat use fluorocarbon. I don't use it so much in lighter lb tests probably because I use mono quite a bit but now I'm considering light braid and I'm thinking it through.

But shall we march lock step? Red fish, blue fish, I use blue Stren and you use green Trilene. Now that's good stuff!

OK fine......I'll bugger off since you find my contributions tiresome.

 

I suppose I should have clarified that 90% of our fishing in QUETICO is jigging.  I was recently reminded that I have the luxury of a fantastic canoe partner both in fishing and boat control - which I completely took for granted.  (Of course he has the same luxury.)  This allows us to spend considerable time on structure, windy or not, and give an area a solid go of it.  Obviously, this has a huge bearing on line choice.

I want low/no vis, low/no stretch, no memory, yet strong enough to yank off a stump or rock with minimal damage.  Jigging with the fireline is about as good as it gets.


mastertangler wrote on May 4^th, 2014 at 4:22pm:

OK fine......I'll bugger off since you find my contributions tiresome.

No, I actually don't.  I think you can contribute quite a bit.  However, I find your insistence on changing the subject to suit your personal, pet interest tiresome.  If you haven't noticed, this is a forum about the Q/BW - not offshore fishing for redfish or tournament bass fishing in Florida. 

Sorry, I'm trying, I really am. I get that I can become tedious.......I'm a stickler for truth. If folk want to think the pros lack skill and can only do one thing well I guess I should just let them think what they want? 

The Bass Pros and Walleye pros were brought into the context of the discussion only to further the concept of using fluorocarbon. As per what I have already stated I know the Bass Pros use it.......

But what about walleye pros? Professional fisherman who fish waters very much like what we would find in canoe country like Quetico......Do they fish straight braid or do they add in a piece of fluorocarbon? I would be interested to know the answer to that. Could that answer be the difference between another 18" walleye or a 32" walleye? I dunno, I don't fish for a living.

I, for one, have a great deal of respect for tournament fishermen. It's hard putting big fish in the boat on a consistent basis. Lots harder than most folk think and when they speak I tend to listen.   

Quote:

I suppose I should have clarified that 90% of our fishing in QUETICO is jigging.  I was recently reminded that I have the luxury of a fantastic canoe partner both in fishing and boat control - which I completely took for granted.  (Of course he has the same luxury.)  This allows us to spend considerable time on structure, windy or not, and give an area a solid go of it.  Obviously, this has a huge bearing on line choice.

That's a very good point PJ. I'm enjoying the discussion on line weights/ line choices/ color, but for me tripping solo, you guys would laugh at my choices.

I just bought a new model med-heavy Gx2,  Ugly Stick one piece 7' to use as my "trolling rod" and have my reel spooled with #40 red PowerPro braid.

Any thoughts on "red" for a line color?

I want a set-up that will literaly slow/stop my canoe if I hang up.
I'm using this in conjuction with those ultra-thin titanium leaders KF sent me and I made myself.

My other 2 rods are spooled with either PowerPro braid or mono in the same weights/dimaeters you guys recommend.

Heading into the Q starting at Beaverhouse May 14-27.

I'm hoping the fish don't know what the "fishing guys" know and jump all over my offerings. ;) ;D

solotripper wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 12:51pm:

[quote] Heading into the Q starting at Beaverhouse May 14-27.

Hey I'm back......did you miss me?

I'm kidding, I am going to take a little break (whew!) but I couldn't resist wishing ST good luck.  :thumbup

I appreciate that.

Just hoping I don't need my "TUNA" rod and heavy braid to "drag" myself over the ice instead of paddling around the icebergs. ;) ;D

solotripper wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 12:51pm:

[quote] my reel spooled with #40 red PowerPro braid. I want a set-up that will literaly slow/stop my canoe if I hang up. I'm using this in conjuction with those ultra-thin titanium leaders KF sent me and I made myself.

I don't really understand why you would want to stop your canoe's momentum with a fishing rod and line. When snagged, let your drag keep you from breaking off until you can grab the reel and open the bail. Using line much over 10lb test really is overkill.

PhantomJug wrote on May 2^nd, 2014 at 1:13pm:

When the super lines allow you to feel a fish fart 20 feet away, why keep using it?

I just look for the bubbles.

Quote:

I don't really understand why you would want to stop your canoe's momentum with a fishing rod and line. When snagged, let your drag keep you from breaking off until you can grab the reel and open the bail. Using line much over 10lb test really is overkill.

When I switched to my Double Paddle, I found that with my rented tandem canoe and the extra power I get with the DP, I was either letting so much line out with the drag set below the line weight or else breaking line and losing a lot of lures.

I found for me, the extra line weight often pulled a snagged lure free. I still set the drag and pay attention, but IF I'm dealing with wind/waves, the ability to slow/stop canoe without breaking line seems to work for me.

That PowerPro #40 is equivalent to #8 mono, so the lures seem to get the same depth/action as mono.

Another thing is IF I tie into a decent size fish and there's control issues due to weather, I want to be able to bring the fish in as fast as possible.
I don't have to play the fish, I can just "horse" it in.

So far it's worked for me, but then I'm not a real fishing guy, more a "accidental" one. ;D ;D

I found this guide to line choices for Bass fishing.
Some of it might translate to Q/BWCA fishing.
Some good info but even the experts disagree, so go figure. ::)

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I think there may be a similarity between this discussion on fishing line and a discussion on lures.  I think most of us will agree that fishing lures are made to appeal to fishermen.  Let's face it not too many fish buy fishing lures.  Any lure will catch fish depending where, when, who and what.  Admittedly some are better than other.  But most lures will fall within one standard deviations of the center of the bell curve.  I just can't believe a northern will ignore your lure because you have 8 pound test verses 10 pound test.  Especially, if you factor in that the super lines have a smaller diameter for the same strength.  As  far as color of line, again I just don't think the difference between clear, black, gray or whatever color really makes any difference.  I think it is great fun for a lot of people to debate the relative merits of different lines relative to color and strength.  But for anybody new to fishing, don't get too hung up on this discussion.  Just buy some good quality line.  I will agree that there is a noticeable difference between the super/braided lines and mono.  IMHO the super lines win hands down.  Finally, I recall what Al Linder said on one of his shows.  Everyone talks about natural presentation.  BUT what is naturally about a red and white Daredevil and a large number of lures which catch fish.  Nightcrawlers are not native to North America. Plus, nightcrawlers do not naturally occur in lakes, but fish will bite on nightcrawlers.

I certainly do not intend to imply that all fishermen have equal success.  Certainly, some people do much better than others.  I don't think, however, that the color or diameter of the line are major factors in catching fish.

This discussion makes me want to run out and buy a new spool of FireLine. I've been successful enough using my 6lb. STREN mono to enjoy the experience. I know exactly what to expect from this line, I know its limitations and feel confident in its performance since I've used it for so many years.  I am sort of resistant to change when things are working for me. Maybe that's why I always come back to Quetico, use the same outfitter when I use one, wear the same lucky hat,  follow the same routines when camping, always eat at the Outdorsman in Atikokan, etc,. etc, etc. Last year when I landed my 45" NP, using a lightweight rod, 6lb mono (no leader) and a 1/4oz. jig while fishing out of a canoe I built myself, I had a pretty nice feeling of satisfaction. The fact I used 6LB mono definitely was a part of that.

I've used FireLine and sometimes still do but I have a tendency to use the higher pound test that has the same diameter as 6Lb. When I snag the bottom while jigging with a light rod,  I can break off the mono fairly easily when compared to the FireLine. I also feel like I have sometimes ripped the jig out of a lightly biting fishes mouth when using Fireline and a rod with some stiffness.  It seems to me, maybe I'm wrong,  that the added stretch in mono give a little more time for a hook set, even though it may not be quite as solid.

I'll keep doing what I do, but maybe on this next trip I'll give a super-line another try.

The hardest thing to learn with Braided line when your used to using mono, is a flick of the wrist or a raise of the rod tip is usually enough to set the hook.

If your hooks are sharp like they should be.

I'm thinking KF's titanium leader with it's built in stretch might be a good thing along with that super braid?

It has just enough "give" that it might be a little more forgiving than braid alone.

If you haven't bought any, your missing out.
It is exactly as KF said and when he said it was thin, he wasn't exaggerating at all.

Mono fishing line definitely shines in some situations. For heavily pressured fish like in the lakes around my home near Milwaukee I use 4lb mono sometimes with a 6lb fluorocarbon leader. I really dislike fluoro but use it when I think it's necessary. Also use mono exclusively when crappie fishing. The extra stretch is a little more forgiving on their "paper mouths".
Light superlines (6-10lb test/1-4lb dia.) like Fireline have three characteristics that I find extremely attractive. First they are very forgiving to line twist, something that is the scourge of mono. Second, It has incredible sensitivity and as ST says require a simple wrist flick to set a hook. In fact in the early days when I used it I was setting the hook far too vigorously and losing fish. I had to train myself to take it easy. When trolling with Fireline there is no hooksetting, it's completely unnecessary. And third, the stuff seems to last forever and does not seem to deteriorate in UV light like mono does. Attention must be paid to the last 3-6 feet just as with any other type of line because it will get nicked,cut or frayed with hard use.
In short, I find the characteristics of Fireline Crystal so desireable that I will use it when ever I can. Many times I like the fact that it is more visible than mono. My eyes are not what they used to be and when line watching during low light cloudy days it's been a real asset. Also makes knot tying easier but have a good pair of clippers handy, it can be tough to cut.

KF -- excellent point about clippers!  So damn frustrating to have the line look like it was gnawed off; fuzzy and uneven.  I probably have 3 or 4, including the black, stumpy looking ones, and the traditional fingernail clippers, and the only thing I've concluded is I buy a couple new ones every year.  I very sharp knife works in a pinch.

puckster

I generally use the wire cutter part of my needle nose pliers to cut the braided line.  Superline is very hard to cut, especially the knot on your lure.

Great topic PJ!  First off, I pack in 2 spinning reels and 4 spools.  2 with fire line and 2 mono.  I probably go 70/30 fire line.

Berkley Vanish is junk.  Really horrible stuff.  I would buy it every year forgetting how terrible it was, getting sucked into the invisibility feature, which is desirable in crystal clear Canadian waters!

Berkley makes a higher-end fluorocarbon that is much better under the Trilene name.  It is now what I prefer when jigging/casting in 20 feet or less.  I put it on my 6 foot medium St. Croix.  The problem is the chomp-snap! but there is no getting around that without leaders which kind of defeats the whole "invisibility" feature of fluorocarbon.  12lb super line is really tough but it gets sawed off all the time too. IMO the best feature of mono is the quiet.  It makes zero noise whereas super line is LOUD!


Keep in mind, sometimes stretch helps the fisherman land nice fish and it is easier to unsnag from rocks using the spool-flick method.

Westwood wrote on May 9^th, 2014 at 9:16pm:

I generally use the wire cutter part of my needle nose pliers to cut the braided line.  Superline is very hard to cut, especially the knot on your lure.

ST posted a link to this tool about a year ago and now I find it difficult to be without it when dealing with braid. Cuts it like butter with no fraying. Handy little gadget.

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OK Somewhere along the way i listed Tuf-Line as one that i liked.
Taking it all back now. Line ended up being one of the very last items before a trip this year. typically i've got line well covered,  spools set etc. but not so this year (car probs right up to departure). grabbed some tuf-line the night before and and ran. Well, looking at the line there were visible consistency problems (the braid and color looked different at times). On top of that, toward the end of the spool the color really changed and looked washed out. Where there should have been an end of the spool, there was more "line" underneath with 3 of those white pieces of tape holding it down. Not sure what the stuff underneath was. Whereas the line i purchased was green this was smoke-ish in color. Quality control completely missed it on this one.
My son ended up having to use but was cautious with it. In the field we did a break strength comparison with some year old suffix 832 (both rated 20#) and this questionable tuf-line. the new tuf-line seemed to break at about half the pressure or less than the older suffix. fortunately he didn't lose any fish due to line break but his drag was set pretty light.  Line!Line!Line!Line!Line!Line!

I will wholeheartedly endorse the Berkeley NanoFil line.  Super quiet (almost silent), cast a country mile, no fraying from abrasion, strong, easy to tie, sensitive, no stretch, zero memory - everything you're looking for while fishing from a canoe in the Canadian shield.  It allows quick catch and release w/o fear of losing the fish.  I used the low-vis green, 6# diameter all week with no issues.  Only drawback is it is a little tough on your hands and fingers when cinching up knots.  Really a great line.

Double Palomar ok with the NanoFil?
What was the 6# diameter with this stuff? I think that's 20# with suffix832

As long as the line was wet, a double palomar OR double trilene knot worked fine.  I horsed this guy in in less than 30 seconds w/ the 6# diameter.

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p.s. - I'm not small by any measure.  I don't think that fish was 20#'s but any double digit LT is going to give you a fight no matter what.  Based on length alone, I'm guessing that was 16-18 lbs.

WOW!

puckster

Woah nice fish !

Very Nice. Love those big Lakers.

FWIW, I'm standing in about 6" of water on a mid-lake submerged rock.  To my left, the rock disappeared into about 40' of water and to might right, Pascanel was swimming in about 3' of water.  I casted off the deep end when we pulled up to the rock and was rewarded with that pig.  Someone else wasn't happy to be taking my picture.

Quote:

Pascanel was swimming in about 3' of water.  I casted off the deep end when we pulled up to the rock and was rewarded with that pig.  Someone else wasn't happy to be taking my picture.

Your too hard on your buddy. ;)
It's more than likely that his odorous scent help chum the water bringing that "pig" into range. ;D
You should patent, that smell for a  bait attractant. 8-)

Somewhere way back in this thread KF and others were discussing the finer details of constructing nickel/Titanium leaders. I'm finally embarking on this journey by gathering supplies and then "going into production". I've lost too many lures already this Spring and early summer on faulty, cheap terminal tackle that I was happy to use up to that point. Time to up my game.

Appreciate any feedback you folks have had in either constructing these handy, essential leaders or using them. Note: I copied KF's list of materials and techniques so I have the "recipe" to move forward.

I never could tie one of those leaders right, so I went a different path. I found some #1 size nickel sleeves that the # 25 wire will go thru 2x. I slide 2 sleeves on the wire and then add swivel/snap-lock and DOUBLE back thru the 2 sleeves.
I take a needle nose pliers and make a 90 degree bend after the first sleeve. I pull wire to desired loop size and then crimp the 2 sleeves. The last thing I do is cut the wire that is bent at the angle as close to the crimped sleeve as my little side cutters will allow.

If the edge is a little sharp, I hit it with a small diamond coated file I got from Harbor Freight as a hobbyist set.

When I'm all done I do a pull test like KF does.
So far they've held up that way. Just an alternative IF you can't do it the way KF described for whatever reason.

Thanks ST. I was feeling as though I needed a backup option such as the crimp sleeves. I'm going to give the clinch knot a shot but I'm setting up to order the AFW 0.033in crimp sleeves (size 1) from jannsnetcraft just in case. I'm not endorsing them -- I just found what I needed there without having to do a lot of looking elsewhere!

I've had some amazing failures with terminal tackle of lesser quality in my first couple of trips this year. Everything from entire split rings and snaps disappearing from the end of my line (with my 10 buck flutter spoon!) to a wire leader coming back minus the snap swivel and rapala (SM).

I've had fish to the boat, only to dive with my SR09 chartreuse shad rap still attached to its lip never to be seen again (lake trout) as well as the infamous gaping yaw-head-shake that robs me of my picture proof of the monster I've hauled in plus the TDD11 firetiger deep diver (NP).

It's finally titanium time in my tackle box....hope this works!

Right on Nanda, me too.  I am a bit lazy and just forked over the cash for a few titanium leaders. 

As long as we're talking losing fish ....  Last August I was on Sunday Lake in the Q trolling a deep diver (Excalibur?).  My rod was nearly lost as it pulled from my hands.  I'm thinking I'm snagged but soon a very heavy fish mosied out into deeper water.  I had a heck of a time pulling it up to gain ground on my real.

I tell my bowman to paddle us toward the lee shore as the breeze was taking us out into the lake.  As soon as the boat turns my line went slack.  I never lost tension but the barbless treble just pulled
free.

What upsets me the most is I never got a glimpse of it.  About a 1/2 hour earlier I boated a 25 inch trout.  Was this a trout?  Maybe a northern.  But, it could've been a huge walleye too.  I'll never know and the fish haunts me.  Didn't Captain Ahab go through something similar?  Maybe on every trip up there I will have to pass through Sunday and troll the southern shore in search of my "whale".  :D ;)

Jannsnetcraft is where I got mine PLUS crimpers that will crimp that small. I had some but they wouldn't crimp right on those # 1 sleeves. Be sure to do that pull test KF does after you do the first leader. No sense doing a bunch and finding out they won't hold when you need them too.

While I'm chasing down that criimper let me relay that I put Suffix brand 8lb braid on my SPIREX reel. Big mistake. I lost several lures, at least one or two on every trip I've taken this year. The line is really not suited to troll as it frays and breaks off quite easy whenever it's trolled or a fish shakes to throw the lure (and cuts it). :( Maybe I just bought some old stock (it was cheap)? It's off my SPIREX and the reel will be spooled with 10lb braid Fireline.

Two years ago at Canoecopia I learned that how you tie your knot with braided line makes a big difference.  I had trouble with my braided line breaking way too often.  What I learned is that I was generating too much heat when I tied my knot.  The line must be wet and when you tighten up your knot do it very slowing.  If your knot tightens too soon when you are pulling the knot tight it will generate too much heat.  I changed how I tighten my knots and the problem was solved.

For trolling I use a 20 pound test line.

Good points Westwood. Question for you: When you tighten your improved cinch knot or whichever knot you use, do you gently and slowly pull the standing line or the tag end? Also, what brand of 20lb braid do you have spooled up? I'm just curious -- I realize that there are several options out there and everyone has their favorite. Any advice would be great.

I use POWER PRO braid. It works for me but there are plenty of options out there. On my walleye/SM reel that when I'm casting/jigging I have 15 lb.

On my HEAVY trolling rod when I'm traveling I use 40 lb which is OVERKILL weight wise but still equal to 8 lb mono.

Why the 40? Well I've found that between the weight I carry and my double paddle when I snag up, even when drag is set light, I was losing a lot of lures.
Often even turning to go back especially in rougher water I broke the line.
Now with drag set right, that 40# will either stop me or pull the lure free.
Since going to that set-up I haven't lost ANY lures to snags.
Not for everyone but for me it works.

Westwood is right. The knot and wetting it and pulling slowly to snug means everything. I pull on both ends slowly after wetting.

I've been using 20# suffix 832 and palomar knots for about 5 years and have never had a knot fail. will be switching to lighter power pro next year. made in usa.

Quote:

made in usa.

  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

I think you'll like the Power Pro.
It has a very soft "hand" and sometimes if your not paying attention you'll get the inevitable "birds nest".
I used to end up cutting them out becasue the braid would bind so tight compared to mono I could untangle it because it was treating it like mono.
Now I kind of "pull"  it apart like you would a clump of grass and let it come loose on its own. Now I rarely have to cut and splice.

I use 832 and love the stuff.  When I do get a bird's nest, which RARELY happens  ;D I find if I just reel back and look for a little "V" poking out and pull on that, everything clears quickly.  I've never had to cut my line out and, trust me, it's not because my casts are perfect every time.

Nanda,

I generally use Power Pro, Fireline or Spiderwire, but I don't think the brand name means a lot as long as you are getting a good quality brand.  When I got my first braided line the box said to use a Palomar knot so I did and I still do.  What ST said is correct pull both the standing end and the tag line equally.  What you want to avoid is putting a lot of pressure on the line which will result in friction which causes heat.
I started  getting in trouble when I became over confident in my knot tying ability and would pull the knot tight even if I had to pull hard.  I blamed the line, but my wife who was using the same line and tying the same knot was not having any problem with breakage.  The light should had gone on, but it didn't.  The key is to keep the line wet and pull both ends so the knot doesn't cinch up until the very end.

I use 20 pound test because the diameter of the braided line is so small compared to mono that the heavier test actually has a smaller diameter than smaller test line made of mono.  There has been a previous discussion on the size of the line and how many fish you catch.  I personally think that if you are tolling the difference in the diameter makes no difference at all.  Which is probably true even with the 40 pound test that ST uses.

I went to a seminar this spring put on by a guide who bases out of the Lake of the Woods and does some TV fishing show.  I can't recall his name.  But what they do to find lake trout in a new lake was troll Rapalas which dive to about 20 feet.  They would troll fast and use 80 pound test.  When they found trout they would fish with jigs or spoons.

I agree about the trolling part too.
Even that # 80 braid is only about 18 # mono, not that unusual on a big water trolling set-up.

---

Informative table. Thanks for posting that! I thought braided line was thinner in diameter and weight as compared to mono but rated to its lb-test (meaning if it's rated to 20#, it's a 20# test). I guess I got that wrong! No wonder my line has been breaking  :o I also checked out the Suffix 832. It's not cheap around here but I'll bet it's worth it. I picked up Spiderwire, 20# that was on sale at Fleet Farms to spool up a spare spool assembly for my SPIREX 4000FG.

8 lb braid is like 1 lb mono size wise, but 8lb line is still 8 lb line which is right on the edge I would think for line in the Q. You also have to make sure your drag is set properly because braid has NO stretch. Great for detecting light bites and ease of setting hook, but without that "give" it not forgiving at all.

Most braids have the MONO equivalent on the spool.
When I first switched to braid I was using 10-12 mono maybe a little heavier for local LMB fishing.
When I saw I could almost triple the strength for the same size, that sealed the deal.

Maybe someday there will be clear braid.

TomT wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 4:05pm:

Maybe someday there will be clear braid.

I'm not so sure that would be a good idea IF your line was to hard to see ABOVE the surface like that clear fluorocarbon line is?


I use RED Power Pro and looking over the side of a boat or canoe in clear water I can see the lure/jig but can't see the line attached in say maybe 10" or deeper.

There could be a benefit to it so maybe someone will market it and let the consumer decide if it's worth it/

Tom T
There is clear braided line.  Fireline makes a crystal line which is pretty close to clear.  In water it is very hard to see.

HighnDry wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:14am:

... I also checked out the Suffix 832. It's not cheap around here but I'll bet it's worth it. ....

with mono, i'd re-spool multiple times per year.  not sure what others do but i've used the same braided line for 3 years before re-spooling. that makes the extra cost of braid a bit more palatable.  then again, i'm starting out with 20# (same diameter as 6# mono). maybe by year 3 it's performing at around 10#.

Quote:

maybe by year 3 it's performing at around 10#.

I'm on the 4th year with my #15 Power Pro Red and I still have NEVER lost a fish from the line breaking as long as I cut it back when I saw abrasion.
It's not even RED anymore, more like "rust" colored.  ;) ;D

Unlike Mono, braid doesn’t absorb water AND exposure to sunlight doesn’t hurt it like mono.

You see a lot of people leave their rod/reels spooled with mono just stored in exposed fishing racks in boats or another sun exposed area. Then they wonder why after a season two the line breaks off when they have the “big’ one on.

Here’s a very informative article about fishing lines.

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solotripper wrote on Jul 11^th, 2016 at 5:03pm:

[quote] Here’s a very informative article about fishing lines.   (You need to Login or Register

Good info, thanks.

I try to fish close to the bottom whether I am trolling or casting.  The exception would be trolling for trout in deep water.  Years ago I switched to braided line and would never go back to mono.  When I am fishing close to the bottom, I probably go through 20 feet of line a day due to abrasions and snags.  When trolling Rapalas I try to bounce the Rapalas off the rocks.  I recently purchased a spinning reel which holds 175 yards of 20 pound braided line.

solotripper wrote on Jul 11^th, 2016 at 5:03pm:

Quote: maybe by year 3 it's performing at around 10#. I'm on the 4th year with my #15 Power Pro Red and I still have NEVER lost a fish from the line breaking as long as I cut it back when I saw abrasion. It's not even RED anymore, more like "rust" colored.  ;) ;D Unlike Mono, braid doesn’t absorb water AND exposure to sunlight doesn’t hurt it like mono. You see a lot of people leave their rod/reels spooled with mono just stored in exposed fishing racks in boats or another sun exposed area. Then they wonder why after a season two the line breaks off when they have the “big’ one on. Here’s a very informative article about fishing lines.   (You need to Login or Register

Good article. I bookmarked it for a good reference on lines.

Quote:

Good article. I bookmarked it for a good reference on lines.

Since were talking all things line, especially Braid, this might fit right in.

I've always used the Palomar Knot because it's easy to tie in a bobbing canoe or boat, but some of these other knots might be even better if you can tie them under the right conditions?

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solotripper wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 3:23am:

Quote: Good article. I bookmarked it for a good reference on lines. Since were talking all things line, especially Braid, this might fit right in. I've always used the Palomar Knot because it's easy to tie in a bobbing canoe or boat, but some of these other knots might be even better if you can tie them under the right conditions?   (You need to Login or Register

I use Suffix 832 and use the Uni and Duo Uni knots almost exclusively.  I can't recall ever having a knot fail.

Quote:

Uni and Duo Uni knots almost exclusively.  I can't recall ever having a knot fail.

There are a lot of great knots out there. You do a little research and you see even the so called experts don't agree which one is best but the same ones are usually mentioned as being good alternatives.

I have an issue with dexterity in my right hand from a dog bite injury that makes those knots than you have to wrap and loop almost impossible out in the field. The Palomar is the one knot I can tie under ALL conditions but it's arguably NOT the best knot for all
situations.

It all goes back to if it's working for you and your adept at it, then why change.  ;) ;D

solotripper wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 1:45pm:

Quote: Uni and Duo Uni knots almost exclusively.  I can't recall ever having a knot fail. There are a lot of great knots out there. You do a little research and you see even the so called experts don't agree which one is best but the same ones are usually mentioned as being good alternatives. I have an issue with dexterity in my right hand from a dog bite injury that makes those knots than you have to wrap and loop almost impossible out in the field. The Palomar is the one knot I can tie under ALL conditions but it's arguably NOT the best knot for all situations. It all goes back to if it's working for you and your adept at it, then why change.  ;) ;D

Indeed.

I haven't had luck with the palomar knot on braid as much as I like the knot! I use an improved cinch from my fly fishing which seems to be the one knot that has held lures on my line! Certainly, I need to pull that knot snug at a much slower rate when I tie it. I've even tried that Berkeley braid knot but have had no luck with it either as things just seem to slip off of it. Might have been my tying to blame though.

I just checked and my rigs are set up with 12# and 20# fireline which I think Westwood uses. I am looking forward to hitting Wabakimi in a week or so to try some of this out.

Quote:

I just checked and my rigs are set up with 12# and 20# fireline which I think Westwood uses. I am looking forward to hitting Wabakimi in a week or so to try some of this out.

IF this is your first real effort with braid or maybe you never heard this before this little tip I learned the hard way might save you some grief?

The braid makers advise you ( at least Power Pro does) to pack you line on tight on your spool. What some people might not be aware of is how IMPORTANT it is to set your drag properly.

Everyone knows or soon learns, if your drag is tighter than your line weight it's going to break off.
With braid being so much stronger than same diameter mono people might be inclined to think as long as rod will take the load, no need to worry as much about drag setting.

IF under a load your spool can't slip a little, the braid might not break, but being so thin/strong it will BIND into itself and the next time you make a cast you'll see the difference in distance or even worse the line will come off uneven and you'll wind up with a nasty birdsnest.

I use 8 lb power pro in moss green and 10 lb fluorocarbon leader (Seguar), about 3 feet. I shifted to uni knots for salt water fishing, skinny water (20 lb pp and 40 fc) and use the same uni knots in Quetico for ALL applications. Maybe a palomar knot works better, but I've never had a knot pull in 20 years of fishing and the uni is easy for me... Do keep the knot moist when tightening though! The only tip is, I use 6 wraps on the PP side and 5 on the FC side of the joining knot. With heavier FC, you can go down to 4 wraps as the line is stiffer.

Thanks ST. I repacked a spool on your advice because it had indeed bound on itself (too loose when I first spooled it on). Moistening and carefully (slowly) cinching down the knots has really helped. Also, the tip of carefully setting the drag on my reels has helped greatly to reduce break-offs and my lure loss ratio has dropped considersably! MS55 --- I'm not sure I'm ready to graduate up to FC but someday :) Good advice though and thanks for the tips!