I got the talk this year. I even walked back to my campsite once pinching some TP between two fingers for kicks. If someone were there watching me and I knew there would be a test … maybe a few small waxed paper bags instead of the jinormus yellow garbage bags Q has been offering for years would be a nice touch. I always come back with more garbage than I create but that huge yellow bag is for covering firewood.

Personally, I'd rather pick up or plant any TP I find (if I'm so inclined) than to be greeted with it in the fireplace filled with that and foil and other garbage I'd rather pick out when I arrive. Don't make me sort through it any more than I already do. In probably around ~50 trips, so 500 plus nights, I swear I have never seen TP that was dug up by any animal OR by myself.

Perhaps this is a way to call attention to a problem. If so, it's not working for me until folks take their used TP with them to burn at their leisure. Mine was a solo trip btw.

Thoughts?

For a long time I wold just cover and like db I have never witnessed it dug up butt what's is so hard about taking it back to camp and burning the stuff? Seems like the right thing to do all things considered IMHO and the way I will proceed in the future.

I've been burning TP for years. When I make the trip into the woods I pick up hollow tubes of birch bark as both caddy and accelerant, further scraps of birch bark ensure complete combustion.

Solus wrote on Sep 6^th, 2014 at 2:24pm:

I've been burning TP for years. When I make the trip into the woods I pick up hollow tubes of birch bark as both caddy and accelerant, further scraps of birch bark ensure complete combustion.

I burn mine, but I do it a little different than most.
Obviously this can't be done in dry/fire conditions, but then you shouldn't have a campfire then either.

I dig my cat hole, do my business THEN take my Bic and light the paper in the cat hole. Wait a few seconds to insure complete burn and no hot ashes in air, then cover with dirt/duff and mark spot with stick.

Works fine for me, but might be an issue for others.

Burn your TP in your cat hole? Kids don't try this at home. This is about as bad an idea as I have heard in a long time. I suppose it can be done responsibly but the potential for unintended consequences (even if they are remote) is to great to advocate such a tack. I think this is an extremely poor idea and besides why not just burn it in an established fire ring? Not sure I see much upside :thumbdown

Quote:

Obviously this can't be done in dry/fire conditions, but then you shouldn't have a campfire then either.

I don't know how much TP others use, but unless there is a fire ban in effect or your cat hole of choice is in a dry spot, I can't see how ANY fire risk can come from burning a few pieces of facial tissue ( my TP of choice, stronger and you use less) in a cat hole?

I've never dug a hole in a spot that wasn't damp/moist and after burning I replace soil, tamp down with foot and mark to warn others.

Takes 3 things for fire, fuel/air/heat. My method eliminates 2 of them.

I have no issue with people putting TP in a designated fire pit if that makes them feel safer doing it, but from the amount of TP that sometimes is left unburned in fire pits, I can only assume they think it will just burn when the next poor SOB uses the camp spot.

Not a fan of finding a dirty fire pit but unburned aluminum foil/ food wrappers are one thing, poo paper is another.

I can speak for others but since that fire pit is also used as a cook spot by many and that may include grilling fish or reflecting oven baking, the idea of using the same spot as a incinerator for bodily waste doesn't hold much appeal too me, no matter how remote the chances of unburned fecal matter being left to contaminate your campsite meal. :P

Don't nock something unless you tried and mastered it.

I just finished a trip and 2 times while picking al foil out of the fire pit I find tissue paper that is wet and dirty.  I do not know what the dirt was but did not want to touch it.  I don’t like carrying dirty TP back to the fire pit or burning anything in the duff where I dig my cat hole.  I do not like cooking over used tp! The new rules to burn your TP is making it harder for those who follow the rules while trying to solve a non-problem.  I don’t think I have ever seen TP coming back to the surface in any quantity.
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Pickerel Lake Camp site near dam.
This TP was never buried! It does not make any difference what they make the rule followers do it will not change this situation.

My guess is that was a pack of girl scouts.  We found the same thing at a Quetico campsite earlier in August.  Probably 20 small clusters of tp mostly by the tent pads.  No feces anywhere so I assumed we were dealing with young, rookie females in the woods not wanting to venture far from the tent after too much cocoa around the campfire.  I used my hand spade to collect all the piles and carried it back to the woods and buried.

As with almost anything, there is a difference on how something works when practiced by experienced/careful people and when practiced by "yahoos".  The burning of TP under ANY circumstances can present dangers.  More than one forest fire has been started by a rogue gust of wind and burning TP.  That danger is reduced if the burning TP is surrounded by a cleared area, typically the case where a fire pit is located.

There is plenty of air under ground to sustain fire. One of the ways forest fires travel is by burning underground, following a tree's root system.

So burning TP in the fire place I will be cooking in?  Ewwww.  Telling every yahoo going into the park to burn it in a cat hole?  Just asking for trouble. I don't have a solution. 

Except maybe giving everyone headed into Q a cork.  ::)

Solution = Put a rock on it!

That cork idea (is room for a logo?) sounds pretty good on a rainy morning. Some rocks are not to be disturbed.

What would used TP dug out of the ground with claws look like? I'm guessing not like PJ's pic and quite frankly, I've seen that same configuration on a tent pad so be careful what you wish for.

I'd prefer not to see someone else's TP anywhere but I'd much rather see it in the woods like that where all I had to do is take a stick and poke it in the duff. I don't want it in my freaken fireplace. It's not welcome tinder! Looks a lot like char cloth if undisturbed.

I take pride in leaving a nice campsite for the next traveler but I've now totally stopped dealing with any TP that I don't have to. I don't know if this is a rule as of yet but it sure is dumb IMO. The only way I can justify it is the hope was people would rather poke it in the duff than share it with the group at breakfast. I was on a solo. I'd have a much harder time coming back and handing my TP to the chef saying here you go, I don't want to mess up your fire up. Burn it with the bacon grease or sumpting.

I don't ever recall finding a recently used hole by accident. Personally, I'd rather disturb a little TP in the duff as a warning to look elsewhere if that area that looked promising and undesturbed - wasn't.

I knew a girl, experienced in dryer locations… asked me if they should bring their TP back to burn at night since there was a fire ban … eeew. I told her to poke it. I know people do things I wouldn't and I trust her and ST to do it safely and to be able to discern the difference. I just couldn't see recommending it to others who think leaving it in the fireplace for others to burn is what the rules suggest. And yes I blamed women. Now, I take that back. I blame the group that left it and especially the name on the permit. I carry bacon grease to the next campsite even if fish isn't on the menu knowing I'll be drinking instant coffee..

On the plus side, I didn't mind picking/packing out other people's foil bits or chunks this year. ;)

Quote:

There is plenty of air under ground to sustain fire. One of the ways forest fires travel is by burning underground, following a tree's root system.

That's true, but you need enough of a heat source to ignite any combustible material that you may find underground.

On a river trip in Northern Ontario when I was still a group paddler, we came upon a site right on the river where some paddlers/fishermen ahead of us had made a fire pit on a little peninsula that jutted out into the river.

Problem was the soil over the root system was barely enough to cover the roots/rocks.
The hot campfire settled into the fire pit, even though from the surface it looked like the coals were out.
When we came upon it, there was smoke coming out of numerous holes in the ground and at the base of a few small trees.

We spent an hour or so pouring water down every smoking hole we could find. We left wondering if it had been enough but we saw no smoke later in the day and when we got out and told the outfitter where the site was at, he said they had no reports on a fire in the area.

You can satisfy your curiosity or prove me dead wrong in your own back yard if anyone has a mind too?
Dig a small cat hole in a moist area, ignite 2 pieces of facial tissue and after they burn, cover with dirt and tamp the soil down tight.

No-WAY in Hell there is enough heat from 2 burned Kleenex to ignite a root system in moist conditions.

MP makes a valid point, no matter how you deal with the TP issue, or the laws they make, how are you going to enforce it or police the Yahoos or Newbie's?

I'd bet 90% of ALL campers are afraid after dark in a setting like Quetico/BWCA to venture much more than a few feet away from their tent after dark and no way their going in the bush to do their business.

One good thing about the Q, with the ability to stay anywhere you can set-up a camp, you can avoid overused areas much more than in the BW.

I don't mind doing a little "house keeping" but I'm not spending hours cleaning up someone's mess, especially if that mess involves fecal matter. :P

I get how partially burnt TP in a fire ring could cause some to turn up their nose. But I'm thinking the only repercussions with thoroughly burnt TP is only in the mind.

I like a sparkling clean site and it is pretty common for me to make an actual fire every evening (and sometimes in the morning before I leave) to consume any garbage and TP. I would not advocate trying to completely burn TP with just a flick of a bic, not happening IMO most of the time.

"The new rules to burn your TP is making it harder for those who follow the rules while trying to solve a non-problem."

I don't believe that that is an official rule, rather that it is a suggested, preferred method

I'm a catholer, and just bury well away from water.  The messes I've seen are just from people who don't make any attempt at all to dig a hole and bury, just crap and leave the paper wherever, including right in the middle of a campsite.  I don't believe that that is from ignorance - just freaking lazy S.O.B.s who would do the same, regardless of what the rules are. 

don't have a current version handy, the one I found quickly is QPP 2008 Wilderness Guide - in that is a section for "rules & regulations": nothing about sanitation at all in there, other than in the paragraph on litter:  Pack out all non-burnable garbage, including tinfoil".  You may not leave any litter in a provincvial park...., Likewise, you must keep your interior campsite clean and sanitary at all times."

from the same wilderness guide, section titled "No Trace Camping" = Toiletries: This is something that is becoming an issue and we ask that you take extra care in selecting and covering your latrine area.  First select a spot 60 to 100 meters from your camp and shoreline.  Remove the sod layer and dig a hole, 10 to 15cm or 4 to 6 inches deep.  Immediately after use replace the soil and put the sod back.  Make sure to bury, burn within the firepit or carry out the paper.  Improper sanitation is one of the most preventable problems in the backcountry.  Please help keep it clean.


whoever wrote that has obviously never tried to dig a cathole in spruce roots - sod? ain't no sod, just moss and duff.

in any case, I don't think anything has changed in that pamphlet - if anyone has a current version, and it is different than what I've typed above, let us know.
  I

In the Quetico I had always just scooped out as best a hole as I could and covered. In Woodland Caribou that isn't always possible as there is more rock and not so much soil so I thought I might as well take it back and burn the stuff. When I had completed the task I thought, hmmm, easy enough. Probably will be SOP (standard operating procedure) from now on, for sure when I am solo.

Quote:

I would not advocate trying to completely burn TP with just a flick of a bic, not happening IMO most of the time.

Have you actually tried it?
Unless your using a wad of TP big enough to choke a toilet like many kids do, a few pieces of TP or a couple of Kleenex tissue burn in a matter of seconds.

Might not be for everyone, but regardless of how you take care of the TP, burn/bury or pack out, it's just the decent thing to do IF you have any regard for your fellow paddlers.

But, like M_M said, it's more than likely the same type of slobs who can't seem to flush the toilet behind them in public or private rest rooms.
I don't know how you deal with that mindset, at least not in a way that wouldn't get me life in prison. ;)

i've been very cautiously burning it in the cat hole.

[/quote]

One good thing about the Q, with the ability to stay anywhere you can set-up a camp, you can avoid overused areas much more than in the BW.

I don't mind doing a little "house keeping" but I'm not spending hours cleaning up someone's mess, especially if that mess involves fecal matter. :P[/quote]


In the BW you don't encounter this problem because there is a place to do your business.  In 42 years of BWCA camping I have never once found TP in the fire area, and only on one occasion can I remember policing it up from around a campsite (a mess behind a big rock on a well-used site on Sawbill--didn't involve feces.)  TP in the fire area?  Doesn't sound very palatable to me.  May not be a health hazard, but still. . .I cook there!   :P

But we were told by some USFS firemen we chanced to meet on, coincidentally, Fire Lake  ;) that they had just finished extinguishing a fire that had been smoldering for days in the duff.  They said people have no idea how a little spark can sometimes lie dormant in the duff and later ignite and smolder for a long time, eventually igniting into a wildfire.

When away from a latrine (or when I was camping in the Q, admittedly many years ago) I dug a cat hole and buried.  I guess if I were to go there today I would still do that.  I certainly wouldn't leave a mess for others.

But I don't think I would burn.  In the hole or in the fire, either.  Ick.

solotripper wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 4:12pm:

Quote: I would not advocate trying to completely burn TP with just a flick of a bic, not happening IMO most of the time. Have you actually tried it?

Well actually I have.

Depending on absorbency rates and volume of material absorbed as well as atmospheric conditions and barometer and of course altitude and lets not forget wind speed and direction paper consumption may be less than desired.

Interpretation..... The blasted stuff doesn't always burn completely because there is a pile of sh$t on it and the wind blows it out.

So, stick a rock on what's left and burn it with the rest of the garbage later. Easy enough.

Unless the TP is buried deep the squirrels and small animals often dig it up and scatter it around. 

Quote:

Interpretation..... The blasted stuff doesn't always burn completely because there is a pile of sh$t on it and the wind blows it out.

Now I know what the problem is. :o

Most people do their business and the TP ends up on TOP of the crap.
Apparently you wipe first, then do your business.
That explains you inability to obtain a CLEAN BURN. ;) ::)

IC,
Your right about the little critters getting at TP if it isn't buried deep, which can be a problem with the shallow soil in the Q/BW.

That's why I came up with the method I use.

To keep little critters from digging my business up, I simply put a rock or two on top of the burial site....as someone had posted earlier....

Crap-roasted brats! Mmmm!

And perhaps we should worry about getting Giardia from driftwood and Tularemia from beaver sticks when they are used in the fire place???? ::)

I was kidding about the rock. Never disturb a small erratic. Ummm, burning Beaver sticks does bring a distinctive odor.  When I grill out at home I'll add cherry or apple wood to the Kingsford.

Beaver sticks and pine and cedar add a choosable flavor to the water in my thermos. My only beef is, be it circular or an opened rectangle I can cook on, it'a a fireplace - not a trash bin.

Magic gets credit for the photo. Sorry 'bout that.

pine_knot wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:13pm:

To keep little critters from digging my business up, I simply put a rock or two on top of the burial site....as someone had posted earlier....

And I always thought Stonehenge had something to do with astronomy. ::) ;D ;D

On occasion, I have seen firepits that have multipurpose as the camp crapper. This removes the need to transport items for burning. >:(

This solves the TP problem.

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Nice selfie PJ. Very well done. ::)

One of my daughter's little friends did a BW trip with Girl Scouts this summer. According to my kid, she really hated the thunder boxes. In fact, her biggest thrill seems to have been pooping on Canada!

I've done as ST in the past, but like MT says some of the paper is harder to completely burn. A Solo Torch Bic lighter helps with that though. It does take a while to finish and monitor the job and as stated the chance of embers made me think there was a better way.

This last trip I carried a small old drink mix container marked with a scull and crossbones for used TP. Later I burned TP in a good hot fire. Seems to work for me. I wouldn't think of leaving unburned stuff for others.

I'd like to believe the critters are digging up the TP, not just careless people. Dog owners know they can't keep their pets out of the pooh.

every time this one comes to mind it brings a chuckle. one of the best from the limerick thread.
   I paddle a boat made from Cedar.
   I fish for pike with a line and no leader.
   But what makes me man,
   Is when I go to the can,
   And survive the swarms of mosquiter.
                                                        Jimmar

Hey zski...thanks for remembering, glad I have provided some entertainment.

Perhaps this limerick is a good final post to cap off this thread. I have refrained from comment thus far. It's been interesting yet repulsive and when I see that there is a new post, I don't want to, but I always click the title to see what new opinions have been extruded.

Quote:

extruded

Interesting us of that word Jimmar.  ;)
Now that's funny! ;D ;D

A few years ago (at my wife's insistence), I started carrying a small sandwich size ziplock bag inside my main TP ziplock.  After doing my thing, the used TP goes into the small bag.  All used TP then gets hauled back to civilization for final disposal.

I have found this method to work well during my last few Quetico trips (including a 12 day trip completed a couple weeks ago) as well as several backpacking trips.  The 12 day trip was the longest I've ever been out without going in for a resupply and all my used TP fit inside the small bag.  This isn't as bad as it might sound as long as you keep the bag sealed shut.  I'm sure the next occupants of our campsites appreciate it.

lighter in the TP kit.

light it, make sure it burns out...completely....then cover....you're done. ;)

Anybody bringing used toilet paper back into camp or anywhere near my cooking fire, will be beaten by me, with a large stick.

Stumpy wrote on Oct 7^th, 2014 at 5:20pm:

Anybody bringing used toilet paper back into camp or anywhere near my cooking fire, will be beaten by me, with a large stick.

That is the new rules.  I found wet tissue paper in the fire pit. 

I honestly though it was a suggestion, like what to do with fish entrails.

db wrote on Oct 8^th, 2014 at 6:46am:

I honestly though it was a suggestion, like what to do with fish entrails.

I hope it was a suggestion not a rule.  When I picked up my permit at French Lake they stated that new for this year we should burn… So is that a new suggestion or a new rule??

I cannot believe you GUYS are so squeamish  :o
WHAT exactly do you think you might "catch" if you come into contact with smoke that may have come off of a used piece of toilet paper????

Re: "suggestion" or "rule."

I don't recall the rangers at Prairie Portage mentioning anything about this when we breezed through in mid-September.

-- kypaddler

kypaddler wrote on Oct 8^th, 2014 at 2:57pm:

Re: "suggestion" or "rule." ?

I'll keep the confessional open for a while longer . . .

intrepid_camper wrote on Oct 8^th, 2014 at 1:22pm:

I cannot believe you GUYS are so squeamish  :o WHAT exactly do you think you might "catch" if you come into contact with smoke that may have come off of a used piece of toilet paper????

That's the big unknown isn't it. ;)
Considering what's going on with the Ebola thing, people catching it even though their disinfecting everything with chorine and burning the bodies, you just don't know "what" anyone may have or who they've been in contact with.

I don't know if virus's like Hepatitis which is fairly common, are killed by heat completely or if anything less than a certain time/temp could contaminate the burning area.

I'd say that solo, you do what you feel okay/safe with and leave zero trace, and in a group situation, you ask and IF anyone objects, you don't doo-doo it. ;) ;D ;D

I'd prefer people kept their "bathroom" facilities separate from their "kitchen" ones, but IF your going to do it, I'd again ask first in a group situation and either way have the common sense to make damn sure you burn it completely so the next person there doesn't know about it.

I do not know about smoke but while sorting through the ashes picking out the aluminum foil left behind and I find wet tissue paper I get a little squeamish now that I know what has been in the fire pit.

Burn, bury, pack out, it seems depending on everyones point of view and their "squemish level",
how to deal with TP is  controversial.

But things could always be worse. ;) :P
Imagine if we were all bound by these rules of personal hygiene.

Shake hands, I don't think so. ;D ;D

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;D

Hey folks,

Don't want to belabor this point but thought I'd chip in again. Living in the northeast for a stint and backpacking the Appalachians, the common practice and understanding was that one dug the hole, did their business, and then pulled out a lighter to burn off the TP. Cover with moss or douse first with water from an H20 bottle then cover, tamp down and forget about it. Maybe that's not the expectation or practice here, but I still do this...maybe more out of habit. Just thought I'd add 2 cents.

HighnDry wrote on Oct 8^th, 2014 at 11:30pm:

Hey folks, Don't want to belabor this point but thought I'd chip in again. Living in the northeast for a stint and backpacking the Appalachians, the common practice and understanding was that one dug the hole, did their business, and then pulled out a lighter to burn off the TP. Cover with moss or douse first with water from an H20 bottle then cover, tamp down and forget about it. Maybe that's not the expectation or practice here, but I still do this...maybe more out of habit. Just thought I'd add 2 cents.

For as many people who pack that route, if that method was causing fires or not easily done, I doubt it would be the "common practice/understanding".

Not so squeamish myself, but I have heard that people have gotten poison ivy from breathing the smoke while burning brush.

As an additional side topic here, what are some of the natural materials historically used. Sphagnum moss works well IMO.

Less TP to burn  :thumbup

On my trip through PP at the end of August ranger went through the park spiel with a flip book of photos. She said "park policy is that TP is to be burned in fire pit or packed out."

If you have a fire going it's not a problem. If you don't have a fire going pack it until you do (or make a decent twig fire so that it is completely consumed by flame). Biological agents are destroyed by heat/fire (Remember the autoclave). It is their park, their rules. Quit whining and grab the birch bark.

I think the rule should be that you hold it until you reach indoor plumbing.  So, quit whining and grab the cork.

PJ-

In college I tripped for three nights with a friend who decided
'just to hold it". Frantic dash for the woods at about 2:00am on the third night, much crashing and moaning to follow.

The cork is subject to failure or back pressure at the very least.

Bring more cheese.

Oatmeal breakfast and dinner burritos compromised cheese d**e.

Ha!  Well, there's always the colostomy bag option.

PhantomJug wrote on Oct 9^th, 2014 at 3:50pm:

I think the rule should be that you hold it until you reach indoor plumbing.  So, quit whining and grab the cork.

I left a bag of corks at your favorite site on Cirrus pj. ;)

But in case of a large group or emergency, I'd bring a big old block of that sharp Wisconsin cheddar just to be on the safe side. ;D ;D

Solus,

Problem with the firepit thing is that as been mentioned by many others, some people are just slobs and are not going to make sure the TP is consumed or for that matter the fire is completley out.

Funny how offical "agencies" view things different.
"Appalachian" trail view, compared to what you were told.

It is their country, but seeing how people use those campsites and knowing it's not just Americans doing the abusing, I don't want to see ANY unburned tissue in a firepit and damn sure don't want to have to be the cremator for others poo paper or whatever.

I guess I'll just keep doing it the way I do until someone in authority calls me on it. :-/

Whats all the fuss? We sound like city slickers afraid of a little pooh> "Ewww, there is some unburnt paper in the fire pit".

Real men are quite the opposite........grab a few buffalo chips and get a fire going to heat those beans up.

The solution is simple.......establish a central location at each campsite on a wide flat rock with good exposure to the sun. Instead of having to cut and split wood just grab a dried log.....probably don't even need kindling. We can sell the idea to the masses by claiming it is "green" and environmentally friendly..........("but it looks brown"......."um, no its not, its green because we say it is, don't believe your eyes, ears or what anyone else says, just listen to us"). 

I was looking for the old Cheech and Chong dog turd laugh ("smell, touch, taste > good thing we didn't step in it") and I came across this. Who knew?

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The discussion that would not die ...

Deut. 22 12-13
"Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad: And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:"

-- kypaddler

;D

One advantage of base camping is that you can spend the time to dig a deep hole.  I generally dig a hole at least a foot deep and a foot wide to use with a portable seat.  Digging the hole generally takes about a half hour.  But once it is set up it is comfortable and everything goes in the hole.  At the end of the week, it is buried a foot deep. Other than some dirt there is no sign that it was used.  The thought of carrying used TP to my campfire seems like a much worse idea.

Many years ago my wife and I went to the Dominican Republican to a nice resort.  Because the resort was having sewer problem, the resort wanted you to put the used tissue in a basket next to the stool.  I never did and judging by the tissue in the basket very few people did.

The real problem is, of course, people who do their business and make no effort to cover up when they are done.