Specifically, I'm trying to come up with a system to carry two canoes (a tandem Souris River 17 and a solo Wenonah Prism) on a 2014 Subaru Wagon with factory installed rails.

The Thule & Yakima websites are very frustrating & seem to have no offerings with crossbars long enough to do the job.  Perhaps they have a safety concern carrying two canoes on a roof?  Their websites are clearly leaning heavily to accommodating kayaks these days, it seems.

Anyway, I may be down to building a home system using 2 X 4's - which is fine, I guess - but I would have thought somebody would have sold a standard package that would do the trick... like a set of 4 towers with options on cross bar lengths to meet specific needs.

Any ideas or suggestions where to look?  Hard water season has arrived in MN so "time" is a luxury I have....

Jimbo   8-)

How about something like this?
Either use wood or maybe get some aircraft grade square tubing and glue some type of rubber to the top to make it nonslip?

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I have something much like ST is suggesting except the whole unit is integral and ready to use with telescoping side bars. Works supremely well IMO.

I think I got mine from Piragis some 10 years ago and picked up the suction cup front rack as well as another rack which mounts into my trucks receiver hitch.......slick set up. I know the entire shebang was around $200 but now they want $180 per unit (ouch). Lately I have just been using the front suction cup rack and using some foam blocks for the rear. Ropes via truckers hitch secure the boat to the vehicle in addition to being secured to the rack. Good set up which is easily removable.......another plus :thumbup

Jim -- Do you have a class II hitch?  If so, then perhaps the Yakima Dry Dock hitch receiver could be part of the solution.
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I have one, so if you want to try it out, be my guest.

Puckster

Jimbo, I'm guessing you have the Outback not the Forester??
The Forester should work OK with the longest bars from Yakima and some universal Yakima towers. You can get a receiver hitch for the front of the car too, for an RV tow behind application. This is the same Dry Dock Puckster mentioned, but on the front instead of the rear. This will give you a nice spread front to back for longer boats.  Just another option. There is a legal limit to how much overhang you have out the back. Plus it's nice to be able to open a rear hatch.

The Outback,,I've seen guys remove some of the plastic covering of the racks to attach to hardware underneath the plastic.

Take pictures and tell me how it works.

Yakima also has a "Landing Pad???" that you drill and mount to bare roofs. I wonder if any of the factory rack mounting holes would match up with the landing pad? It would mean completely removing the factory racks and mounting the landing pads.

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I always start my car buying with the "How will it carry boats question"? Racing boats are more sensitive to high winds on highways than rec boats. It's not looking good for newer vehicles, and trucks are getting stupid expensive.  :(

Jim
I have been very disappointed in Thule, Yakima, and factory expensive, noisy, poor functioning racks. Looking at a picture of Subaru rack it looks like the open rail for mounting a cross bar is about 18 inches long.   (You need to Login or Register That would make the front and back mount for a 17 ft canoe 18 inches apart.  That is not good. Thule makes bars that are 78 inches long(   (You need to Login or Register ) which is wide enough for your 2 canoes.  You will bang your head a lot on them a lot. They are noisy.
I installed some roof rails like the Surco Roof Rail and have Thule on top of that.  I bought the Thule equivalent on the Surco and found then flimsy.   (You need to Login or Register To install these holes must be drilled in the roof and I could not find any guide as to where wires and other things were in the roof. I have the shorter Thule bars and when I want to hall 2 canoes I put a 1X4 on top of the Thule bars and attach it with SS hose clamps.  The rope that holds the canoe down also goes around the Thule bars.

You may want to try looking at Malone "   (You need to Login or Register" My son got a set of steel bars from them that are plenty long enough. You may not be able to get the aerodynamic style bars in a lenght long enough for 2 canoes.

Jimbo, Another outside the box idea.
Remove your 17's hardware and nest the Prism inside it. You'll be ready for your next fly-in.

Get wing nuts to replace the 17's mounting hardware, and don't forget your Leatherman when you land.

Lots of great observations & ideas, guys.  Thanks!

Magic, I don't have the car in my possession yet (it's getting underside weather protection & Scotchgarding on its upholstery this week), so I can't measure that open distance on the railing.  Nevertheless, as mechanically-"disinclined" as I am, I do see your point.  To insert towers in the slots provided probably does not offer me the spacing I would require.

Rather, the SteelTop™ MPG200 Series Steel Rectangular Profile Cross Rail System from Malone that Fallguy has suggested might actually do the trick... IF the towers mount around the outsides of the rails vs. in the slots OR having to go completely around the rails.  The picture (   (You need to Login or Register ) is somewhat unclear about this.  If these towers must "wrap" the rail, I guess I would need to remove factory installed plastic (not necessarily something I want to do on a new car).  If they mount "outside" of the rails somehow (like a clamp), it would allow adequate spacing of cross bars.  Of course, I'd need cross bars at least 78 inches in length to go along with that system.

My guess is that system needs to wrap the rail somehow, which means getting under the plastic as Jim J says.  By the way, the car IS an Outback, not a Forester.  I also appreciate Jim J's sentiment, "I always start my car buying with the "How will it carry boats question?"  In this case, my other needs for this particular car outweighed that consideration... but the thought was indeed on my mind.

It just seemed to me that there should be SOME system designed to take advantage of factory installed rails.

Of course, there is always THIS solution:   (You need to Login or Register .  The Outback can tow 2700 lbs; the trailer runs 2200 lbs.  With packs & canoes, I should still be OK, even as heavy as I pack.   It's pretty flat between the Twin Cities & North Country (famous last words), right?

Thanks for the ideas, guys!

Jimbo   8-)

P.S.  Jim J, I REALLY loved your outside-of-the-box idea about nesting the Prism inside of the Souris River!  The disassemble - assemble - disassemble sequence, however, has me a bit wary.  Stripping threads, losing parts, etc., can have rough consequences on wilderness trips and I guess I don't trust myself to be as meticulous as such a process would require.  Nevertheless, what a neat idea!

Jimbo   8-)

While I have a Thule bar set and towers that fit my new vehicle (2014 Hyundai Santa Fe), the instructions indicate that the bars should be set ridiculously close together.  So, I went with a single bar (roughly over the driver door) and a   (You need to Login or Register (mine came already assembled but was more expensive) which mounts to a trailer hitch tongue.  I modified the top t-bar to accept  a metal handrail post that would insert into the end of the bar to add side "wings."  This was then fastened to the t-bar by drilling multiple holes in the handrail post and a single set thru each end of the t-bar and finally held in place by   (You need to Login or Register. I use the wire loops on the pins as anchor points for tie-out (ratchet) lines down to the bumper to add lateral stability.  Before the tie-out lines attach, the top of the "T" will swivel, which makes loading a single canoe much easier.

Now the downside of this arrangement is that it blocks a pick-up tailgate or a lift-gate on a hatchback, so you will probably want to load your "back end" before placing the canoe(s) on top.

dd

Follow-up:  The "wings" (one each side) were crafted from these   (You need to Login or Register sections, cut off to an appropriate length ... holes drilled about every 4 inches so the remaining length could be adjusted and locked into place with the pins.  I also threaded an eye-bolt through the holes already present near the top as a tied-down point near the ends of the assembly.  I placed an adhesive rubber strip on the "top" of each of the sections and reflective tape to the rear-facing edges of many of the parts.

Are you overthinkin' this? Just bolt or ducttape your cut to length 2x4s to the rails. I'm a man, but I can change if I have to, I guess.  ;D

Old Salt wrote on Nov 28^th, 2014 at 7:39pm:

Are you overthinkin' this? Just bolt or ducttape your cut to length 2x4s to the rails. I'm a man, but I can change if I have to, I guess.  ;D

Straight from the infamous "think tank" at Possum Lodge!

Jimbo   8-)

I guess it comes down to ease of attaching a rack, utilitarian vs extensive assembly required. ;D

Maybe you could split the difference. ;)

I currently drive an Equinox and have a Yakima system that carries two canoes comfortably.  Previously I had a Thule system that also carried two canoes without problems. So the right bar length is available.

If your get a trailer know the MN law.    (You need to Login or Register

Jimbo, are your Subaru side rails flush mounted, or elevated off the roof? I have some Yakima towers laying around from my old Subaru, which I could send you to try on for size. You can buy 78"  or 86" Yakima cross bars, which would accommodate two boats. I've used my long bars to haul two boats on both a Subaru and a Honda with no issues.

I just googled for 2015 Sub with factory roof rack

your screwed!  I was going to suggest a set of "Q" towers for the front, but there is no way to put them on the way that roof rack is mounted.

ST's suggestion of the suction cup rack is probably going to be your best bet.  a set at the very front of the roof, and a 2x4 or something to go across the factory rack at the little gap you have to work with would at least give you some spread between the front and rear bars.  might even be better to put a second set of the suction cups at the very rear end of the roof.

if that factory rack is mounted into a track?, then I'd pull those rails off and use track mounted system instead - those you can find.

other alternative would be to mount a trailer hitch to the front and use a hitch mounted rack at the front such as the Yakima Drydock  and a two-by at the back- or just go with a trailer. 

Maybe you could kill 2 birds with one stone?
How about installing a cargo basket and then simply clamping a couple of 2x4's of the right length to the basket cross bars when you want to haul canoes.
You can always use extra luggage space and with the luggage rack, you have plenty of places to tie down canoes/ lock them up. Weight would be negligible and I don't think they'd hurt your gas mileage. Yakima makes one too.

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Mad_Mat wrote on Dec 1^st, 2014 at 2:25pm:

ST's suggestion of the suction cup rack is probably going to be your best bet.

After many thousands of miles from Florida to Michigan to Minneapolis to the Q, Georgian Bay and WCPP over the last 10 years and several times carrying 2 boats and once carrying 3 solos side by side by side I wouldn't even consider a permanent mount. On the other hand I don't place 100% faith in the system neither and regardless of what sort of rack I had I would likely have some sort of independent safety strap or, as in my case, rope.

Mad_Mat wrote on Dec 1^st, 2014 at 2:25pm:

your screwed!

Sorry Jimbo, If M_M says it, it must be true.

So there's 2 things we should all know now thanks to Jimbo.
1. Cache River isn't a short cut to Cache Lake.
2. If you want a Subaru, get a Forester, not an Outback.

I'm sure you'll figure out something. It just might be something for the Red Green Show. Duct tape can do anything. Hoping a laugh would help about now, that's all I got for you. :-[ ;)

Ranger, thanks for the offer.  I take possession of the vehicle sometime this week (I hope).  When I can assess matters first hand, I'll see if those towers might be part of a solution.  To be honest, after reading all the feedback, I'm not particularly hopeful.

Magic, why am I not surprised that my favorite government watchdog has reminded me of that (stupid) law concerning canoe trailers?  Thanks, though, & I'll keep it in mind should I spring for the $2700-2800 and that trailer.

Jim J, one of these years we're going to see record flooding and I'm going to be tempted to do a "re-enactment" of that infamous "Cache River Passage."  While I'll probably get the exact same results, you're welcome to join me.  It's a million laughs....

Old Salt, what gauge duct tape do you recommend?

Jimbo   8-)

I have a 2004 Tacoma quad-cab with a Yakima rack. To carry two canoes, I worm-clamp a long cast-iron pipe with upturned ends (right angles and short bars) to each of the Yakima bars.

It works, as we've been carrying two-canoes the 930 miles (each way) from my house to Ely almost every year for a decade.

-- kypaddler

Quote:

Old Salt, what gage duct tape do you recommend?

IF you opt for some sort of temporary rig involving duct tape, then this is the stuff you want.

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The Kevlar keel guards were showing some wear/tear on my rental Q-16, so I put a few strips front and rear this fall for my 7 day trip.
Applied to clean/dry surface. End of 7 days, they were still there. :thumbup

This is my solution.
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It carries a canoe well but makes a lot of noise.  The towers come off the rail in about 3 minutes.  I have found that by wrapping the cross bar from tower to tower with a bungee the noise is reduced.
This is the Thule rail that I bought and did not use. 
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I added a   (You need to Login or Register to the front bar and it nearly eliminated the wind noise.

I already had the Thule bars and fairing from my F-150, but had to change to new towers to clamp on to the integral roof rails on my Hyundai Santa Fe.  They are a very similar design to those that MP posted.

dd

I recommend 'Boltlockwashersnut' brand of ducttape. It can be found in the hardware section of your favorite Menard's. Doesn't have the designer look, but does the job cheap. For a more high end look, pick up a can of chrome spray paint and dress up those timbers. My brother and I used a pair of these for many years. For grins we stenciled 'Yakima' on this rails. ;) Use treated 2x4s.

solotripper wrote on Dec 1^st, 2014 at 6:53pm:

[quote]End of 7 days, they were still there. :thumbup

How gnawed up were they? I miss bike tires at temporary landings.

DentonDoc wrote on Dec 1^st, 2014 at 9:15pm:

I added a   (You need to Login or Register to the front bar and it nearly eliminated the wind noise.

I use my sun roof a lot. Does it help with a canoe on top?

db wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 7:17am:

solotripper wrote on Dec 1st, 2014 at 6:53pm: [quote]End of 7 days, they were still there. :thumbup How gnawed up were they? I miss bike tires at temporary landings.

The kevlar keel guards had started pulling away from the canoe. It wouldn't of been an issue paddling wise, but since I'm paddling "backasswards" solo, the bow guard had become a "drag foil" so the tape fixed that problem. The tape showed some wear and tear, but was functionally intact.
Decided to do both front and rear just to see how the tape held up. Now that I know, I added some of it to my repair kit.

Jimbo, I'd be happy to go along on any trip with you. I'm sure we'd have some laughs.

MP, Most new cars aren't using the forward roof space for a rack. I also see the need for where you attached your Thule system. The Outback has it rack extended up close to it's front though, so there's no open area left. The factory rack is just not usable, mostly closed off plastic covering. I see the need to remove factory rack and check it's mounting system. It just might accept the rails you used or the Yakima "Landing Pads".

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I'll have to check out that Menards brand tape. I've had hit and misses with duct tape. Sometimes the no-name stuff is good, other times it's just a waste of money as cheap as it might of been.

I found this duct tape review. Not every brand is listed/tested, but it tells you what to look for in a good duct tape material wise. Not all so called duct tapes are the same that's for sure. My tape was the best tested for outdoor exposure but not for overall home use.

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Jimbo, Have you befriended an auto body-shop guy yet? Someone who can help you get under your headliner and remove the factory racks. (Stay away from your side curtain airbags IMO.)
Share please. It's a problem others will face. Very limited choices that carry long boats well.

Jim J -

I'm not sweating the issue anymore & here's why.  With four guys & their packs, I'm not likely to fit it all in the Outback anyway!  2nd canoe will go on 2nd car.

I'm just hoping I even get to do a canoe trip this year... the wife has other ideas that may get in the way.  It seems the idea of a bicycling & canal boat trip across France - with in-laws - is gaining steam.   I'm sure there is something very seriously wrong with me but the very notion of it just gets ME "steamed up."  Those type adventures (ordeals?) eat up a bunch of vacation time (ie. paddling time).

Alas, I expect I'll get my head around it somehow (probably she wraps my head around it).  I suppose I could pretend (might not be pretending) that doing without a serious canoe trip in 2015 would drive me wacko (I don't have all that far to drive) and that I might do something dangerous (like give her the "Joan of Arc" treatment).

Anyhow, the double-canoe car rack issue has pretty much become a moot one for me.

C'est la vie, mon ami!

Jacques-bo   8-)

Quote:

Anyway, I may be down to building a home system using 2 X 4's - which is fine, I guess

To me, this is like saying there is a functionally ideal solution which would cost less than $25 but is there a commercial product I can buy for $150 that will do the same thing but not quite as well.

Buy  one 2x4x8 and cut into 2 pieces of about 4' (make the exact length you need, get a 10' 2x4 if needed).  Buy 6 eyebolts. Drill holes at ends and center of the 2x4s and insert eyebolts.  Buy 4 lashing straps.  Whenever you want to transport canoes, attach 2x4s to rack with lashing straps. (Options: Make an angle cut across front of 2x4s to lessen wind resistance. Paint the 2x4s, or decorate in some fashion. Wrap bicycle padding tape, or something similar,  around base of eyebolt to create a bumper between canoe and eyebolt.).

What can a store bought system give you that makes for a better solution? 

The problem is the nature of the roof rack on the Outbacks.  As MagicPaddler pointed out, there is only about 18 inches of "open" space on either side for the purpose of lashing down 2X4's or a pre-fab store-bought product (at what I agree are exorbitant prices).  Jim J is right; I'd likely have to have a Subaru rack guy (or some other specialist) do some "customizing" in order to obtain the necessary spread between the front and back bars (or 2X4's).  I can't think of a good way to clamp down 2X4's to the closed ends of the parallel roof racks.

I'm not exactly sure what the point is of "closing off" side racks on the Outback and leaving but 18 inches width of open space.  It would seem to limit functionality of the rack system.  Nevertheless, I'm sure there must be some rhyme or reason to it.

Jimbo   8-)

Jimbo, You're right about the cars' inside space. Two tandems, means 4 people and their gear too. Not many cars can do that either, without using a trailer too. I've always tried to be able to do that, so I've used minivans or crossover vehicles, but think my hosting newbees days are over.

Be nice to Nancy. IMO your decorum is your super power.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Years.

Those are outstanding words-to-the-wise, Jim J!  Will do & thanks.

Merry Christmas, all!

Jimbo   8-)

Jimbo,

I've used a Yakima rack with 66 in bars with my Subaru. Sold the Subaru and now use it on my Matrix. Have also used it on my wife's Prius. I put a Champlain and a cargo box which worked well. I can extend by picking up a pair of aluminum conduit bars at Menard's and cutting to 72in which is my second system when the other one is in use.

This gives me two systems that I can leave on each car for the summer.

You just have to watch your head when you duck into/get out of each care  :o

Here's another thought for someone with a newer vehicle that just doesn't have the desired between the bars spread you'd like for optimal loading.  If you have a hitch on the vehicle, consider a hitch mounted load bar vs. two on the roof.  Yakima has the Dry Dock, Thule -the Goal Post, Rhino Rack T-Loader.  Not the cheapest route, but could be your answer.  If you are or know a competent welded, make your own.  I have no experience with these, but the Yak looks most stable with the 'y' design.  Adding tie downs would help stablize potential side to side swaying.  I also found the MTN Gearsmith Heavy Duty Pickup Truck Bed Hitch Mounted Extension Extender Rack Ladder Canoe Boat for $89 on line, could work, but looks heavier, less adjustable.  Worth thinking about - FWIW.

pd

I had an outback and I ended up getting galvanized pipes and taping the clamping points so I could use my Yakima supports. It worked fine except for the inevitable head bumps.

We recently purchased a 2016 Outback with the factory racks (Got a great price near dealer invoice).  This past week, I visited our local Great Miami Outfitters which is similar to Rutabaga but a bit smaller.  I called to see if they had any Yakima Mighty Mounts or something similar that could work with the Outback factory racks. They said they've some and possible other options as well.  So I stopped by.

Anyway, the guy who was their expert on canoe racks/transporting suggested the Thule 819 Canoe Portage Carrier system: 

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They are sort of like the Yakima gunwale brackets but a little wider and able to adapt to most oblong shaped racks.  So we spent about 10 minutes in front of the store putting one of them on and the fit was almost perfect for the Outback racks.  Almost froze my hands and butt due to a near zero wind chill.  The best Amazon price was $109 which the outfitter matched.  Picked the up today and also bought one spare bracket as well.

For my plans, these should work very nicely.  If I need to carry two canoes, my Rapdifire can actually nest inside by Northwind for travel.  Can't wait for my trips this spring/summer/fall.

Also just received approval from my boss at school (and at home) to attend Canoecopia....looking forward to seeing many of you again.

May want to start a new thread, but I was wondering of any of you has canoed in Temagami area north of Sudbury or Lake Superior Provincial Park a couple hours west of Sault Ste Marie.  Hope to hit each of these this year in addition to a trip to Quetico.

Cheers!

Jimbo, We have a new Outback too. I met the Yakima rep at our local shop and he said they now have a "landing pad" that fits the factory racks mounting points. Seems you remove the factory crossbars and the landing pads drop into the same mounting holes as the factory bars. Then you can use a tower to hold crossbars that can extend wide enough for more than one boat.

I tried to find a link, but their website isn't helping. Probably best if you call customer contact.. Good luck and let me know as we'll be doing the same soon. For now my Forester is working well.

Jim J -

Thanks for the info.  Several months ago someone at Yakima told me about a year ago that something like that "might be coming along in a couple years."  I guess it's already here.

I'm not sure if I'll be jumping on this right away.  My plans & equipment needs for 2016 paddling are still a bit sketchy.

Many thanks!

Jimbo   8-)