For those interested, there is an outfitter in Ely with a couple of Savage River comoposite canoes in their livery this summer.  Williams & Hall Wilderness Guides and Outfitters on Moose Lake struck deal with Dave Diller at Savage River Boatworks at Canoecopia to stock some of their boats for rentals.  They do not have them listed on their website yet, so you have to call/email and ask.  The rate is $53 per day.  They have one 18' Blackhawk that lists at 34 pounds on the Savage River site.  The other one is a 16'6" Deep Creek model at 32 pounds.  That makes them around 25% lighter than a MinnII or a Spirit II of comparable size (42 lbs).  Rob Kesselring is a light weight proponent and has taken 23 BW/Q trips in his Deep Creek.  If you read the BWJ, you know he likes those canoes.  I thought some of the ultralight folks here would be interested to maybe try them out too.  Maybe someone going out this year would be interested?  Just don't look to reserve them between July 29 and August 7th..... ::)  If you're in the Quetico on those dates, you just might see me paddling stern in one of them.   8-)

pd

Great tip! Wish someone in Atikokan was renting them - I'd be all over it. I've seen them at 'copia and these boats are sick.

I'd be really interested to read some reviews from people that usually paddle Souris Rivers and try one of these.

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I'd be really interested to read some reviews from people that usually paddle Souris Rivers and try one of these.

I'd like that too. One thing about SR is that while they might not be the lightest, they are one of or the toughest canoe out there in Kevlar.

When I was on my spring trip, try as I might I put some serious abuse hull wise on that SR.
I was thinking about the QJ member who had posted he had bought a Carbon fiber canoe and would love to hear how he fared with that ultralight hull?

I know that the guys with those high-end canoes are usually "wet footers", but you can't do that when you have yds of rocks for a landing and then a steep drop-off without some serious acrobatics at the take-out/put-in.

In my experience the "extra" toughness of Souris River boats is more marketing than any real world difference. Composites of all sorts are tough and easy to repair. Regardless of who makes the boat they all possess nearly the same resistance to abrasion when confronted with rock.

 
Solus wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 5:13pm:

In my experience the "extra" toughness of Souris River boats is more marketing than any real world difference. Composites of all sorts are tough and easy to repair. Regardless of who makes the boat they all possess nearly the same resistance to abrasion when confronted with rock.

I agree. Everybody's working with the same materials. The builder could have it flex more so it won't gouge so easy. But you'll have an oil canning boat and not as much fun to paddle.

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Everybody's working with the same materials.

I don't want to start a "Chevy vs Ford" debate, but do they ALL work with the same materials?

Is this SR link that talks about them using Epoxy and others using polyester/vinyl base, just "hype" or is there a difference?

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There is definitely a difference between the two types of resin- but there is no significant increase in abrasion resistance (the difference in hardness is insignificant compared to the hardness of the native rock). Epoxy resin (SR uses this) is much better for repairing boats as the bond to a dry surface is stronger. In laying up a new canoe there is considerable dissent, many consider the bonds across layers of wet polyester to be stronger than the epoxy bonds, others say epoxy is stronger period. I've repaired lots of boats and I have not noted much difference. I think epoxy is more sensitive to UV degradation-  SR hulls that have been stored in the sun suffer from delamination  and deformation over the course of a couple of seasons.   SR boats are less likely to puncture because the  cross rib lay up allows more flex than a foam core. There is a tradeoff- more flex means less efficient for paddling and a greater tendency for the hulls to deform  (I've seen lots of hulls with waves or bends). I've seen few large punctures in any composite canoes from flat water use- and composites are really easy to fix.

Thanks Solus 8-)

I was hoping someone with repair experience would chime in. I get the abrasion thing but from your post think it's a "Chevy/Ford thing". They both have their pluses/minuses and you have to choose what means the most to you.
In my case, that SR flex is a trade-off I'll take for less speed. Try as I might, I have never taken a trip where I didn't hit a submerged rock at cruising speed due to sun glare, or it was in a spot that you would never expect one. A few times it was just my fault because was looking to far down the lake at scenery and not where I was paddling. ;) :-[

I have a Savage River Blackhawk and compared to my previous MNII, the Blackhawk cuts through big waves compared to the front of the MNII bouncing up and down.  Also, I've banged into some rocks really hard and it seems to get less damage than the MNII

Rocky, how does your SR Blackhawk handle waves?  Does it tend to ship water behind the bow paddler when going through waves a foot or more high?  My Wenonah Sundowner 18 does that, as compared to me Bell NorthStar which is more buoyant in the ends.

When we first tested the Blackhawk, it was a really windy day. We started very carefully because we knew our MNII would be very tippy in those waves. The Blackhawk handled the waves so well that we gradually kept turning until the waves were hitting the canoe broadside and it was fine, very stable.  When going directly into the wind and waves, the front end seems to slice through the waves instead of bouncing up and down.  I've paddled through some big waves many times.  I'm not sure exactly how tall the waves were but they were big and I didn't notice any water coming in. 

You guys are making this difficult to follow.  Referring to a manufacturer as SR when the two predominate ones under discussion are Souris River and Savage River is frying my brain.  :D

Azalea,
You college professors are just too picky.  No need to define your terms when everyone knows what you are talking about.

Sorry Azelea- I used SR to refer to Souris River only. Was answering Solotripper's question and lost track that the original inquiry was about Savage River (I would like my next boat to be a Savage River Blackwater, in carbon fiber please).

About two months ago, I posted this info about Savage River canoes available to rent for BW/Q trips at Williams & Hall.  Well, I took two of them out on a 10 day trip July 29-Aug. 7 into Quetico – one Blackhawk and one Deep Creek model.  Here’s a review of both and a few pics (if I can get that figured out....). 

Both canoes were in their Carbon/Kevlar layup.  Weight is 34 lbs. and 32 lbs. respectively (see all specs on Savage River’s website) and they seemed to be in pretty stock/standard trim.  Neither boat had float tanks nor decks – just an observation, was not an issue.  Thwarts were aluminum tubing except the ash yoke, which was glassed (?) into the hull and not removable.  The outfitter added Wenonah style sling pads.  There are no ‘outer gunnels’, just smooth all the way up.  The actual ‘inner’ gunnel was a 3/8” x 1” foam core strip with the carbon fiber just wrapped up and over it.  I actually preferred this over the typical aluminum rail – much more comfortable on the legs when braced against them, though not much to grab onto when portaging.

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The Blackhawk sported sliding bow and stern tractor seats with their padding and they were surprisingly comfortable.  I generally prefer flat seats, but I would take the boat with these as first choice, having spent some time in them. They did not have seat stops such as the Wenonah’s, but this was never a problem.  The seat tube clearance was tight enough to not slide around, but loose enough to adjust easily by shifting weight.  The Deep Creek had fixed, contoured wood/web seats and were comfortable enough. 

The Deep Creek is shaped like your standard canoe and at 16’6”, easily handled two full standard ‘food pack’ sized packs and a BJW Guide pack between the front seat and rear thwart.  The Blackhawk has pinched in gunnels at the bow and stern, more like a racing canoe, that allows the paddler to get the paddle closer to the centerline, reducing ‘torque steer’ and a more perpendicular stroke – less reaching.  In the stern, I found this not an issue, with plenty of leg room ahead of the pinched area.  In the bow, your legs are pretty much stretched out straight or anywhere up to straight up, but you cannot splay your knees.  It would not likely be comfortable for wider or rounder paddlers.  At 18’, it easily swallowed the Granite Gear #4 (with 2 – 30L barrels in it…my food pack), a CCS Pioneer pack and a BWJ Guide pack.  All that, plus 5 rods, a tackle bag and spare paddle each. 

Both canoes paddled exceptionally well and as expected, with the light weight, accelerate very quickly.  With zero rocker, I was surprised how easily they turned, as well as a boat with 1.5” rocker at either end, much like my Bell Northwind 17 (2.5 front, 1.5 rear).  They were very maneuverable when needed, yet tracked very straight with no added effort.  They also both handled superbly in rough water.  On day one, we crossed Bailey Bay with some serious wind and waves coming up the length of Basswood from the southwest.  There were 2-3 foot rollers and white caps and the bow of each boat had some very nervous and inexperienced paddlers.  They were very controllable and quartered nicely.  Neither canoe shipped any appreciable amount of water, even with those large waves and we crossed uneventfully. 

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How did they handle the wear and tear?  Well, as you can imagine, portaging them was a dream, they are so light.  The difference between them and the Minn II’s we usually take was very noticeable.  The inside finish has a ‘tooth’ to it and a very non-slip feel – a difference from the Wenonah’s and my Bell that I liked a lot.  We did not pamper these canoes, but did not abuse them either.  We wet foot the portage landings, but also caught our fair share of submerged rocks on the hull, a few rather violently.  They took the abuse as well as the Kevlar with the expected scrapes and scratches; however one downside to the carbon fiber – like black paint on a car, it shows everything.  One thing we noticed on the hull was some dimpling.  Where it got caught on a rock and there was some weight in the canoe, the hull actually deformed a slight bit from the pressure.  Savage River’s web site suggests for ‘rocky rivers and whitewater, add another layer of Kevlar in the bottom’.  If I were buying a canoe or if were the outfitter, I would have this added to the canoes.  It might add a pound or two, but would be worth it, I feel.  For an outfitter, I might also ask about some integral skid pads in the bow (and maybe stern) like Wenonah does. 

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Overall, I very much enjoyed paddling AND portaging these canoes.  They performed exceptionally well and I will definitely use them again, given the option.  I cannot think of anywhere the canoes disappointed or fell short of expectations and were well worth the extra couple of bucks a day rental.  If I were in the market for a new canoe for tripping, I would definitely look hard at the Savage River canoes. They are on the pricier side, but you get what you pay for.   For those out there that want to rent one for a trip, Blayne at Williams and Hall said he plans to add some more for next year’s season.  Interestingly, we saw a Deep Creek canoe in the TexTreme layup on top of a car in their parking lot, likely headed out the next day on a trip. 

pd

If anyone ever buys a boat from Savage River, John can coach you on removing the dimples. You use a heat gun on the area to expand the air in the foam core. Don't over do it or you'll create a blister bulging out, do it in stages.
Also if you want something special other than stock, talk to John.

Potage dog - How did they compare to the MNII, speed wise? Which model did you like better?

OD4me,

For any given canoe (or boat for that matter), a longer, more narrow hull will always be a 'faster' boat.  The MNII would be technically faster on paper.  That said, most paddlers will not approach or at least be able to maintain max hull speed.  I feel like I was able to keep up a more aggressive pace with the Blackhawk over the MNII.  I attribute that to a 25-30% (depending on layup and which figures you use) reduction in mass over the MNII and the Blackhawk's pinched gunnels.  It's race inspired design means your strokes are more parallel to the centerline, resulting in a more efficient stroke.  I only paddled the Deep Creek unloaded while fishing, but still a great canoe.  It compares closely to the Wenonah Spirit II in size/shape.  I am a stern paddler and I liked the design of the Blackhawk.  I would choose it over any of these canoes with the Deep Creek being a second.  I'm not sure would have been able to stand an entire trip in the bow with the narrow gunnels, but then I don't care to paddle bow in any canoe.  I also really liked the padded sliding tractor seats. 

Incidentally, Williams and Hall just redesigned their website and they now have rates for the tandem carbon fiber canoes at $54 per day, $7 more than a Kevlar boat.  That's only $35 more per person for a 10 day trip and a bargain for the weight savings you get, IMHO. 

pd

Thanks PD. I appreciate the info.

I can't see the weight difference being a factor in determining the hull speed. The 10 to 15# is insignificant when you consider the weight of the loaded canoe. If it's a faster boat it would be due to hull shape and ease of paddling- not weight.

The weight difference is significant when you are under the boat, not when you are in it.

You're welcome OD4me.

I did not claim weight as being a factor in hull speed...just my speed. And, actually, not speed, but rather my pace, in combination with the overall boat design or hull shape, as you so noted Solus, due to more efficient paddling.  Of course, none of this is empirical and YMMV. 

BTW....definitely faster over the portages!

pd