I know everyone is waiting on Spring to break and planning their own trips, but I thought I would give this a shot anyway.

I have hopes of buying/ordering  a new, lighter solo this summer and have poured over  the specs of nearly every manufacturer as well as canoeing  books of wide vintages, finding a considerable amount of confusing and conflicting information.

I understand that most of the seaworthiness of a given boat is more in the hands of the human wielding the paddle than in the hull design, but I am hoping to buy whatever edge I can.

I like TomT’s choice of a Swift Shearwater and a family member just bought a Swift Keewaydin 18.6 and was very happy with his own choice. (not for solo)   Both beautiful boats.

The Bell/Northstar  Magic seems to have a cult following.  I talked to an employee of Northstar who has owned a Magic since it was Bell and claims he will never own any other solo.

I have also seen many Prisms in my travels and occasionally had a brief conversation with the owners who think they are great.

I would appreciate suggestions or comments of any kind.

I am looking for something lighter than my older Mad River Independence at 45 lbs. including  yoke, a bit faster hull would be a plus, but mostly something that will help me get off the water if I find myself in more lively conditions than I should be out in.

I know all of these characteristics are a compromise, but I am just looking for suggestions and the reasons for them.

I looked for a previous thread on the subject, but came up mostly empty.  If I missed one please point me toward it.

Thanks for listening.

Regards,

MossBack

It doesn't get much respect but I love my SR Tranquility. High initial and secondary stability. I find it plenty fast andwas able to easily out pace a colleague in a Prism - not that one comparison is valid.

Just for comparison, I'm 6-2, 225 lb, and 66 years old.

MB,

Whatever you decide to get, I'd strongly suggest when you take it for a test paddle you bring your packs with you, loaded to there tripping weight.

I like to keep my packs below the gunnell's so they don't catch the wind and you have the lowest center of gravity possible.

The ONLY time I've ever dumped solo was in an SR Tranquility. It WASN'T the canoe's fault, my packs set-up/size made it impossible to lay my packs flat.

I was too top-heavy. You can always buy packs to fit the canoe you choose but do you want to do that?

Either way, something to consider besides the quality of the canoe.

The Northstar Northwind solo is well liked and my go to boat before I fell in love with the Shearwater. It's about $1,000 cheaper than the swift boat.  My logic is yeah it's more expensive but it's a lifetime purchase and damnit, I deserve it.  ;D 8-)  I also like being different from the crowd. 

Mossback -

I like my Prism, especially how nicely it handles going INTO the wind.  On the other hand, level-loading has proven critical & it took some experimentation - and a few hairy moments - to get it right under various wind & wave conditions.  ST's comments re: "loading" practice are well-founded.  I've found that initial stability isn't so hot (you get used to it) but secondary stability is pretty good.

Having said that, I've long had my eyes on the SR Tranquility that BillConner speaks of... and now I am even more encouraged by his report because I am of a similar size to Bill.  I love my Souris River tandem so much (stability in all weather conditions) that I gotta believe their solo holds similar merit.  Anyway, I may be looking to test-drive and then possibly switch my Prism for that boat.

Hey, in late June I'll be paddling with a flotilla of solo vessels (at least six).  Some of our participants may be in a better position to offer you "comparisons" when we get back in July.

That's my two cents' worth....

Jimbo   8-)

Mossback,

I bought a seldom used 2006 Bell Magic in Black Gold 5 years ago from a guy in North Carolina for $1,850. I test drove one on a Quetico trip and really liked how it paddled and just had to have one. I found it to be extremely fast and lightweight at 31 lbs. 

I am 6 ft 218 lbs and I was a bit worried about how the Magic would handle a guy my size and my gear. Well, this 16 ft canoe which is a bit narrower in design than I would like ... can accommodate me and my gear very nicely. It has fairly good initial and secondary stability.

Saw some very nice new solos at Canoecopia this year. Got to test drive the new Swifts and Bells and ... Geesh so many to check out.

TomT wrote on Apr 29^th, 2018 at 1:56pm:

The Northstar Northwind solo is well liked and my go to boat before I fell in love with the Shearwater. It's about $1,000 cheaper than the swift boat.  My logic is yeah it's more expensive but it's a lifetime purchase and damnit, I deserve it.  ;D 8-)  I also like being different from the crowd.

I have this boat as well. It's a bit longer in length and wider to accommodate larger packs & gear. It still only weighs 32lbs which makes it lightweight to portage.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.

Several decades ago we rented aluminum behemoths weighing 70 to 80 lbs. and thought nothing of it.   Now we buy carbon fiber and know it is a good choice to shave ounces.

Several of your comments praised Souris River boats.  When traveling tandem we rented Wenonah’s for many years, but then discovered the merits of Souris River and now will rent nothing else.  We also happened to meet the owners and they are absolutely great people.

I agree with ST completely about getting packs down below the gunwales.  I accomplished that on my last solo, but the packs fit very tight and were miserable to remove and put back in.  I am determined to learn how to pack light, which is part of the reason to invest in a new, lighter, likely narrower boat.

No options in Southern Indiana for test driving upscale canoes.  The local outdoorsey shop used to do that once a year until kayaks took over the universe.

The best I can do is mock up narrow gunwales on my MR Independence to see if my old stiff knees will tolerate it.

Jimbo, you mentioned you like your Prism going INTO the wind…..is that to say it is a problem with wind at your back and following seas?

At the moment I am leaning toward a Magic, although I have no real well defined reason why?

Wally13 said his Magic had fairly good initial and secondary stability.    He is 6’  218 lbs.   I am 5’10”  and 170lbs.   Will my lighter weight make the secondary stability better, worse or no different?

Thanks again for putting up with all my never ending questions.

Kind Regards,

MossBack

Quote:

I am determined to learn how to pack light, which is part of the reason to invest in a new, lighter, likely narrower boat.

  If I recall you have/use older style paks?
If you get a new pack that can hold your gear and food for a trip and then just a bring a small daypack for raingear etc, you should be able to 2x portage most places even if you use the shuttle technique?

Here's a pack I ran across that might fit your needs.
Narrow enough it should lay vertical in any solo canoe but with enough volume to hold gear and maybe food if you pack right?

I have an old Eureka canoe pack that looks like the modern portage style packs with padded hip belt/shoulder straps that is over 25 yrs old and still in good shape. If this pack is even half a good it's a deal at this price. CDA price too.

  (You need to Login or Register

MossBack wrote on Apr 30^th, 2018 at 2:01pm:

Jimbo, you mentioned you like your Prism going INTO the wind…..is that to say it is a problem with wind at your back and following seas? MossBack

Mossback -

With the wind at your back the Prism you will do just fine... IF you are level-loaded.  Frankly, I find that I need to put a bit more weight than expected "forward" to keep from weather-vaning.  The craft is very sensitive on that particular point.

Even with the wind in my face I seem to be putting more-than-expected weight forward.  The point I wanted to emphasize, however, was how nicely the vessel cuts into the wind and slices through waves coming at me.  I make much better progress into the wind than expected.

Such are my impressions with the vessel, anyway.

Have heard great things about the Magic, though.  Certainly worth checking out.

Good luck with making your choice!

Jimbo   8-)

I will just add the Tranquility is wide. CCS hybrid Pioneer right behind seat and CCS Deluxe food pack up front. I trim by pulling or pushing food pack.

you probably won't see this one at canoecopia but it's a 'thought'
  (You need to Login or Register

   ;D ;D

I met a couple of guys at the BH parking lot as I was coming off a trip. They were just going into basecamp/fish on BH.

They had so much gear/coolers that they had a hand truck to haul the coolers. They made a homemade canoe cart to try and haul their canoe loaded with gear.

They had so much stuff the aluminum canoe BUCKLED in the center. ;D They had to go into Atikokan and get it welded up.

They could have used this cooler-canoe.  ;) ;D ;D

I'm sure the Red Green Coolernoe had better performance than my first canoe.  An aluminum Sea Nymph bought new in 1976 , huge, heavy, no flush rivets...........and yes I still own it.

MossBack

"I am looking for something lighter than my older Mad River Independence at 45 lbs" -

I have an Indy too, and was convinced to get something lighter - especially when standing in knee deep water on slippery rocks trying to hoist the boat up on your shoulders for the 10th portage of the day.  that convinced me to get a lighter boat for sure.

I test paddled both the Bell Magic and The Bell Merlin II on a windy day - didn't like how hard it was to turn the magic in the wind, as compared to the Merlin II.  Either boat (and same for Northstar variations) will get blown around in the wind if empty.

I also didn't like the higher seat they put in the Merlin (short seat drops) to make it more of a kneeling boat, so I ordered mine with longer seat drops which lowered the seat 3 or 4 inches and made it more stable - 29#.

Cruising speed with my normal tripping load is about 4mph - I've had the boat up to 7 or 7.5 mph once, when I had a quartering headwind and could just paddle on one side as hard and fast as I could.

If you like Wenonahs, ask a dealer or ask Wenonah about availability of composite Rendezvous solo - one of the fastest solos you can buy, with enough rocker to make it quite maneuverable on windy lakes, but its at its best as a river tripper if you have any interest in paddling rivers as well.  There's a nice used one for sale in Denver area for $1100 - probably won't last long.

All solos are subject to quirks in the wind, especially quartering winds (I have 5 different solo boats).  I, and many other people, set up the load so that you can easily shift a pack in front more forward towards the bow for headwinds, or pull it back with the rope you thoughtfully attached to better deal with tail winds.  Don't plan on setting up your gear all in one pack - better to have two more or less equal weighted packs to better adjust trim.

the following quote is from Paddling.com - if its convenient for you, it is a good way to go and see many different solos and test paddle many of them - most people would be willing to let you try their boats

"A reminder that the 11th edition of the Western Pennsylvania Solo Canoe Rendezvous will take place at our usual location at Cooper’s Lake Campground, Portersville/Slippery Rock PA on June 1/2/3. You may find more information on our website   (You need to Login or Register Click on “message board”. Anything there with 2018 in the thread title will contain current information. We will keep you updated there and on our Facebook page as to the manufacturers who will be attending and bringing demo models for you to try out as we receive confirmation from them. As we always say, an opportunity to immerse yourself in canoes and canoe people for a long weekend to the exclusion of all other Reality. Do come and be with us. It’s a Very Nice Affair Indeed, and that’s No Foolin’…"

p.s. - I still like my Indy - it is my go to boat for day trips on local lakes - the extra 15lbs of weight and straighter keel line make it better than an ultralight boat for day trips.

just thought I'd add:   a few years ago, 3 of us were paddling a local lake - me in my Independence, and one Bell Magic and one Bell Merlin - we swapped out boats to check them out, and all 3 of us thought that the Magic was very similar to the Independence in the way they handled.  So if you really like the Indy, then definitely test drive the Northwind solo that is closest to the old Magic.

Northstar still makes the Magic, doesn't seem to have changed much from the "Bell" Magic. The Northwind solo is noticeably fuller than the Magic- a solid stable craft but not as quick or responsive.

Mad_Mat wrote on May 2^nd, 2018 at 7:41pm:

just thought I'd add:   a few years ago, 3 of us were paddling a local lake - me in my Independence, and one Bell Magic and one Bell Merlin - we swapped out boats to check them out, and all 3 of us thought that the Magic was very similar to the Independence in the way they handled.  So if you really like the Indy, then definitely test drive the Northwind solo that is closest to the old Magic.

Matt,
I am always happy to admit my ignorance.  Just for the record, I like my Indy, but I think I may like another boat better, for a variety of reasons. 

Admittedly my paddling knowledge is still thin in spots.
  My Indy is the only solo I have ever paddled, so I have nothing to compare it to.

I am confused by your comparison above and how the Indy compares to a Magic.

The Magic is 6 inches narrower at the gunwale, 3 inches narrower at the waterline, 4 inches longer and almost no rocker where the Indy has 2.5 inches on both ends.

I would think that would make the two very different.  But then I have not paddled both, where you and your friends have.  Just trying to understand.

Regards,

MossBack

Moss -

"I am confused by your comparison above and how the Indy compares to a Magic.

The Magic is 6 inches narrower at the gunwale, 3 inches narrower at the waterline, 4 inches longer and almost no rocker where the Indy has 2.5 inches on both ends."

my Indy does not have 2.5" of rocker - more like 1" if that, so it is likely a different iteration of the same boat.  The Merlin we all test paddle had 2.5" of rocker - it was way turnier than my Indy and the Magic

I found my pile of misc. Indy information gleaned from the net.  Apparently the Indy went through several years of subtle and not so subtle changes.  I believe my boat is a 2002 model with some Kevlar in the hull and listed as the "KE" model.

Several places I found rocker listed as 1.5 and 1.75 and a couple more at 2.5 and 2.5.

One of our members here specifically mentions 2.5 rocker and how he had difficulty "sticking" the stern in a tailwind.

As previously warned, I always come with questions.

Is there a way to actually measure rocker on a boat?

Is rocker the same as the shear line at a given depth?

If I do buy a Magic, what will I be gaining over the Indy other than 10 to 12 lbs lighter?

Thanks for any and all comments.

Regards,

MossBack

"Is there a way to actually measure rocker on a boat?" lots of ways, but no standard for the industry

"Is rocker the same as the shear line at a given depth?" -

no - see below
---Shear-line: top edge extending around the canoe hull from bow to stern. Skid plate: A piece of thick Kevlar® that is glued to the bottom ends of a canoe. Prevents abrasion of the skin of the canoe. Stem: The most extended part of the bow or stern, ascending from the keel to the deck.---

"If I do buy a Magic, what will I be gaining over the Indy other than 10 to 12 lbs lighter?"

You should definitely gain some speed - Magic will have a higher length to width ratio, so faster for that reason - but simply pushing 15 lbs less weight should gain you a bit more speed itself.

I have the Kevlight version of  the Merlin II that is the black/yellow Kevlar weave (no carbon) - I wet foot and try to be as gentle as I can, but it has held up very well even hitting the occasional rock - If the object of your new canoe is to get a lighter boat, I would get the lightest version available - and that likely includes the aluminum gunnels rather than wood - but to each their own.
I suspect that you might lose a little bit of stability in magic vs Indy - but maybe not - best to test drive anything you are buying, with and without a tripping load

Mossback, I'm in Ft Wayne and you're welcome to test my Voyager, I also have an Argosy if you're interested in trying that too. Also I have a friend that just got a Northstar Solo I'll bet he would let you test too.

Test paddles make all the difference. I remember testing a Magic and the Voyager. The shop owner knew the Voyager was the one I wanted by the grin on my face while I paddled it, I don't play poker. Nothing bad about the Magic, just that it's a personal thing.

Mat,

I appreciate your attempt to educate me.  I am not sure where I got the idea that sheer related to Rocker??

I noted your suggestion about going lighter.  It is less important when there is a group with some younger Sherpa's along, but with more solo travel on my horizon, weight will be a factor.  I believe most of my weight savings will be from not taking all of the "I Might Need This" crap I took the last time.  I know aluminum gunwales save weight, but I still am very much stuck in the past when it comes to trim.  I like the look and feel of the wood.  I have never made a trip without my old canvas and leather Duluth Packs.  I know they are heavy, especially when wet, but I like the way they smell.   They will have to give way to lighter packs with better suspensions for solo travel.  In general change is very hard for me.

Mr. Solo,

I very much appreciate your offer to come North and test drive your canoes.  I would be happy to make the trip just to say "hello", but my schedule is overbooked for the next couple of months.  If possible, I would like to take a raincheck on your offer though.

So what was it about the Voyager that put a grin on your face , where the Magic did not? 

Kind Regards,

Mossback

I've paddled most of the boats being considered. To me the Magic makes a great compromise between size, quickness, seaworthiness and weight. Its forgiving, relatively fast, light, pretty and can carry a decent load. The Voyageur can handle more weight, catches more wind (requires skill and persistence to handle in a wind perpendicular to direction of travel) but is quick as all get out. It simply flies. It feels unstable initially but, much like a bicycle, picks up stability with speed. The only thing I don't like about the Voyageur is the amount of freeboard- it feels excessive to me.  I paddle the Voyageur's little brother the Advantage, also designed by Kruger (back when he weighed about 150# less than he does now). It's a good tripping boat, but not a very good fishing platform- I'd make the same claim for the Voyageur. Despite it's size the Magic seems much more adept at handling heavy seas, particularly from the side- it just seems to dampen the roll "Magically".

Solus wrote on May 11^th, 2018 at 8:48pm:

To me the Magic makes a great compromise between size, quickness, seaworthiness and weight. Its forgiving, relatively fast, light, pretty and can carry a decent load.  Despite it's size the Magic seems much more adept at handling heavy seas, particularly from the side- it just seems to dampen the roll "Magically".

Solus,

Whether you intended it or not, your comments sound to me like a strong sales pitch for the Magic, especially the mention of handling heavy seas well.

Thanks for taking the time to weigh in.

I do think the Magic is a really well designed hull. The Northwind solo is very similar, a little more beam and a bit slower and even more forgiving. My only quibble with either boat is that I prefer a sliding center seat to a fixed one (even if it is more comfortable) for ease of trim. One of my friends bought a new Northwind solo and the quality of the manufacture is excellent; the boat feels lighter than its advertised weight.

Mossback, Solus's comments are right on the money. I started my paddling in racing canoes, so I lean that way. But again he's spot on about the boats.

What I liked about the Voyager vs Magic was the height of the gunnels combined with the tumblehome. It enabled me to wedge both knees under the gunnels to maintain more contact with the boat in rougher water. I straighten one leg to toe the footbrace and tilt my knee under the gunnel. I fold my other leg under and across with my foot wedged into the side, with it's knee under the opposite gunnel. I'm braced similar to how a kayaker would use the top deck to brace his knees, but both their legs would be straight. The Magic's gunnels were too low, or seat too high, plus my legs too tight to do the same in it.

I still grin in rough water or upstream in tricky currents. Confidence helps, don't paddle scared, you'll swim for sure. I'm not stupid, I did stay on shore last year on BH when the foam was pilling up knee deep on the rocks, solo tripping in Oct. TMI  :-X :o

I typically paddle the stern seat and always with my knees hooked under the gunwales, rod handle behind one knee and rod body in front of the other knee.  I read about people who kneel with their feet under the seat, but with 2 junk knees and size 11 EEEE width shoes, that ain't working for me.  Until last September I had never paddled with a foot brace, now I will always have on in my own canoes.  It helps considerably with a second position to rest my knees.

My Mad River Independence is too wide at the middle to hook my knees under the gunwales without a stretch, but the Magic is considerable narrower.  I tried to mock up the Magic width with some c-clamps and pvc pipe, but it was hard to tell much .

I always come with questions.........You mention the value of a sliding seat for trim, so while sitting in the middle of a solo with no second canoe around to eyeball your trim, how to you know whether it  is out one way or the other?  How it handles? Intuition?  Shadow of the waterline  seen through the hull?  Camper bubble lever glued inside the hull?

Regards,

MossBack

MossBack wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 3:16am:

I always come with questions.........You mention the value of a sliding seat for trim, so while sitting in the middle of a solo with no second canoe around to eyeball your trim, how to you know whether it  is out one way or the other?  How it handles? Intuition?  Shadow of the waterline  seen through the hull?  Camper bubble lever glued inside the hull?

Truth be told I don't really care what my actual trim is- just move things till it works right. If I want to get an objective idea I can always consult the water in the bilge (from boots, rain, or paddle drippings).

Quote:

If I want to get an objective idea I can always consult the water in the bilge (from boots, rain, or paddle drippings).

I do the same thing, it will give you a pretty good idea of how level you're loaded. If your running with the wind or into it, having a way to pull/push your paks will get that sweet spot you're looking for.

I apologize for coming to the party late Moss.  I am in the Indianapolis area, and have a Bell Magic.  You are more than welcome to come paddle it.  I have a friend who has a Prism, and I am sure we could work it out so that you could paddle both.  Of course, finding a day to do it would be the hard part, but I am willing to try!
My biggest grievance with the Magic is that my CCS Pioneer is just at the size to be a tight fit in the Magic.  Sometimes the straps snag while loading/unloading.  The solution is to have a smaller pack, not a wider boat, though!  I wish I had bought the Explorer instead.  But, something to think about if you already have hundreds tied up in a portage pack.
Honestly, the Magic "may" turn a little better than the Prism, but neither one likes to turn quickly, although leaning does help.  I did not notice a significant difference in tracking between the two.

gymcoachdon wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 4:01am:

My biggest grievance with the Magic is that my CCS Pioneer is just at the size to be a tight fit in the Magic.  Sometimes the straps snag while loading/unloading.  The solution is to have a smaller pack, not a wider boat, though!  I wish I had bought the Explorer instead.  But, something to think about if you already have hundreds tied up in a portage pack.

A note for future consideration:  the Kondos Outfitter Special   (You need to Login or Register has almost the same volume as the CCS Pioneer (which I also own) but is a narrower profile and every bit as well constructed and comfortable as the CCS. If I'm careful in packing the Pioneer I can get it in and out of my solo (which is narrower at the gunwales than a Magic) without too much catching- but since buying the Kondos it has become my go to solo pack.

GC Don, Thanks for the offer to test drive your Magic.  I would be happy to travel the hour and say "hello" but my next couple of months are full and I would imagine your time is short as well.  I appreciate the offer though.

Your and Solus's messages on appropriately sized packs is something i have already fought with last September.  I took the 2 smallest canvas packs I had and both were too big.  They did lay flat below the gunwales behind the seat and forward of the front thwart, but not without a fight.  Every portage I came to they were a chore to extract and to replace.  I am determined to reduce gear and have packs small enough just to drop in place and pull back out without swearing.  I already bought a CCS Rucksack for the bow of my Independence. I have always been surprised no one makes a line of packs just for solo travelers?

Do you lay your packs flat or on edge (side) to make them fit the solo boats?

Regards,

MossBack

I lay mine flat, and it really isn't a huge deal with the Pioneer.  It's mainly when I'm really tired at the end of a long day, and I don't quite lift straight up, a strap or buckle might catch on the gunwale and make me lose my balance...
I have never packed the pioneer completely full while on a solo trip, so I am sure I could get by with the smaller Explorer.  My second pack is the Rucksack, and it is really nice as my single pack on day trips, and fits well in the bow.

Granite gear made a nice solo pack for about two years, didn't sell well enough and they discontinued it. I have one, and used it in my minimalist single portage mode (significantly lower volume than the Kondos Outfitter Special or the CCS Pioneer). The Granite gear Solo is really well designed but not as well manufactured as the CCS or Kondos. Repairs have been frequent.  The Kondos fits nice in the Advantage unless I stuff it to the gills. I insist on laying packs flat. I had Kondos install a grab handle below the hip belt (standard on the CCS) for ease of extraction.

I use a CCS Bushcrafter (a Rucksack with two bottle pockets) for the front pack (in double portage mode).

The "pack mistake" that I make when tired at the end of the day that makes me crazy is when I gather myself for the big heave from the ground to my back only to discover I'm standing on the hip belt.

Solus wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 7:51pm:

gymcoachdon wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 4:01am: My biggest grievance with the Magic is that my CCS Pioneer is just at the size to be a tight fit in the Magic.  Sometimes the straps snag while loading/unloading.  The solution is to have a smaller pack, not a wider boat, though!  I wish I had bought the Explorer instead.  But, something to think about if you already have hundreds tied up in a portage pack. A note for future consideration:  the Kondos Outfitter Special   (You need to Login or Register has almost the same volume as the CCS Pioneer (which I also own) but is a narrower profile and every bit as well constructed and comfortable as the CCS. If I'm careful in packing the Pioneer I can get it in and out of my solo (which is narrower at the gunwales than a Magic) without too much catching- but since buying the Kondos it has become my go to solo pack.

Good to know. I got Martha the CCS Explorer and found it a bit small for all my late season solo stuff. I'm using the CCS Pioneer and it takes some care fitting it into my Voyager. My pack goes in flat behind me. Then pulled back wedging into the gunnels, mostly for trim. I'm using a 30L blue barrel in front, and portage it with the canoe.