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Forum member Solotripper posted this in a recent thread and it got me thinking this question - Does knowing every detail about campsites, portages, weather, etc. ahead of time take away from the adventure of it all?

I started tripping as many of you have in the prehistoric world before the internet.  I can remember getting into Ely in the 80's or 90's and buying a local paper just to have the latest weather forecast before my put in the next day.  I remember closely reading the few books available for any reference to decent campsites. 

But what I remember the most is the total uncertainty of it all as I shoved off away from my entry point.  The high sense of adventure on a solo in the mid 80's totally out of my comfort zone and relying on my camping skills to keep me safe.  There were no PLB's either.

So my question is about technology and has it dulled our sense of adventure because we can use google earth or read details about campsites at paddle planner or listen to the local weather while on the trip.  Was it better to not know all this ahead of time and discover things more like Lewis and Clark did?  :-/

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Was it better to not know all this ahead of time and discover things more like Lewis and Clark did?  Undecided

I remember those days too fondly but since so many here have MORE than themselves to worry about which is what drives the use of those PBL. I don't have those concerns so I'm more inclined to push things a little.

Add in health concerns they allow people with those issues to keep paddling where before they might not feel safe to do so.

You also have the hardcore fishing types who want to maximize what time they have on the water.

When I mark my maps for a trip, I show the known campsites BUT often find those hidden gems that are lesser known.

If you read my trip reports I very seldom if ever give the number of a campsite. I just give a general location. I do that on purpose so people can invest a little sweat equity finding them.

As many know from my trip reports where I got hurt, what got me thru was channeling my inner Lewis and Clarke. Although compared to THOSE guys we are ALL a bunch of wussies.  ;) ;D ;D

Sorry!  By the early '80's, I was already using personal computing to enhance my outdoor experiences (backpacking in the Rockies at that time).

My first personal purchase was a desktop unit ... a full blown Radio Shack TRS-80.  It was the first (and last) time I dropped $10K on personal computing, but since I was using it for a number of writing projects it was ultimately a business write off.  To that I added a 4-disk floppy drive bay, a Daisy wheel printer (think of an IBM Selectric with the ball flattened) and a flatbed plotter.

My wife was a beneficiary of this technology as she produced her dissertation on it.  (I was still "old school" at that time and had an IBM Selectric.)

Next came a dial-up modem, and by the mid-80's when I was doing a lot of flying, I added a "laptop computer" rather than have "dead time in the air.  This unit was a NEC PC 8300 series device (first released in '83).

Of course, before the internet there was ARPANET, let by DARPA (a Navy Research consortium of military, corporate and university entities).  E-mail came along followed shortly by FTP (file transfer protocol) which made data sharing easier.

Being a backpacker, I very soon became interested in add of the publically available data held/managed by the USGS.  Before long I was downloading data samples of various file formats to investigate content.  I finally found a data format that would give me the data to build topographic maps of virtually anywhere in the US.  However, I then either had to write the software to display the results or find someone who had already done that leg work. 

After a bit of sniffing around, I did find a source willing to share their software ... the U.S. Naval Academy.  Initially, I was scratching my head as to why the navy needed topo maps, but I soon realized this tool was not being used a lot by the SURFACE fleet.  So, after receiving the software and doing a little hand waving to get the data to match up to the software, I started producing topo maps.  It was only then I discovered that there were no rivers and lakes on the maps (although they were clearly designated in the data).  It didn't take long to come to an understanding of why that was ... all the landscape for the Navy topos is UNDERWATER! 

This deficit not withstanding, I did discover a feature in the software that was not specifically mentioned when I asked for it.  Once you developed a topo, you could then plot a route and trigger the "Fly By" option and the software would create a wire-frame image of the terrain and "fly" you through it.  Kind of cool for a piece of software that dated from the early '90's. 

Did I ever use the software for a backpacking trip.  The answer is yes. Doing research for a trip schedule to be along the East Clear Creek trail out of Eagle Colorado,  I was able to run down a local or two who knew the trail.  They described it as a "bit rugged."  So, I located the data for the area and generated a topo and did a fly-by of the valley route we'd take.  I was impressed by the near vertical walls on both sides of our track for much of the distance we'd travel.  I just wanted to be sure we would be able to camp below 10,000 feet and that option was established (although we'd climb to above 12,000 just poking around on day trips.

So, how rugged was the area.    (You need to Login or Register describes the crash of an Air Force plane on Gold Dust Peak (which we could see on our trip) that happened in April '97.  We were there late September '96.  The report outlines some of the resources brought to bear during the 3-week search for the crash site.  So, yeah ... I'd say rugged!

dd

In the 1960’s I recall my Father driving from Indiana to Colorado to Elk hunt.  He would tell my Mother, “ I will see you when I get back”.  Sometimes it would be 10 days and other times it would be 3 weeks.  He never called home a single time.

I started paddling up North and very much enjoyed being out of contact.  Now several decades later our groups bring, satellite phones, Spot Locators, GPS’s, Kindles, elaborate charging systems,  etc.  The home folks demand contact so they can share with us the daily drama that we go to the woods to escape.  I am also guilty.

If we find a nice site empty that we had marked on our maps, we are happy.    If we blunder in to one off the travel routes that will barely do, we are delighted.

One of the things I hate about my job is when they roll out new software.  Nothing quite as annoying in my world as capturing every last shred of data, whither it tells us anything of value or not.

I planned a short rant here and apparently went out of bounds.

Standard Apologies.

MossBack

That's hilarious about your father Mossback.  But that's just how it was.  I would go on a fishing trip with my dad as a kid where we would rent a cabin about 8 hours from home.  I remember sending postcards back to my family and scribbling what we were doing on them.

BTW - I got an inreach text from Jimbo yesterday.  It said Welcome from island camp on Veron Lake and he described the site a bit.  So, instead of asking questions and starting a dialogue I simply congratulated him for getting there and wished him a good time.  IMO text conversations should be minimal when out in the "wilderness".  You lose that "feeling" if you have cell talk with the outside world.  Jimbo is with Magic Paddler and MPeebles I believe.  Their goal is to visit Delahey.  Jimbo said he was going to use his net and just scoop up the lakers.   ;D ;D

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In the 1960’s I recall my Father driving from Indiana to Colorado to Elk hunt.  He would tell my Mother, “ I will see you when I get back”.  Sometimes it would be 10 days and other times it would be 3 weeks.  He never called home a single time.

  My Father did the same AND my Mom was okay with it because she like most women of her age back then were NOT as needy as so many are now.

The ONLY difference when Dad was gone was that I being the oldest son was expected to be the "man" of the house.

There is a reason they call them "The Greatest Generation".

A good discussion Tom T. I also canoed for many years without the benefit of technology and enjoyed my trips. Most of the time I was never concerned about finding campsites because I knew that we would find something suitable for the party. Most of the parties I led were 4-8 persons. We always caught enough fish to have a few meals.

I started using technology in the 90’s but didn’t discover websites like QJ until shortly before I joined. Technology can be helpful, but it also can build a false reliance. The only technology that really made a difference in my trips is the fish finder. I discovered a whole new world under the surface of the lakes I travelled. Even if only passing through, I would turn it on to see what we were paddling over. Most lakes were trolled unless we were in a hurry.

Unfortunately, my health has declined to the point where I am no longer able to do canoe trips. My last attempts drove this point home to me. I still enjoy hearing and reading about the experiences of others.

On the issue of using campsite and portage data, the horses are out of the barn. Too much info can cause funneling and overuse. I used to share this info but quit about a decade ago when I revisited some campsites I had shared info about and saw severe degradation and abuse. I will still share via email or text to those I know and trust. 8-)

OS,

I do not begrudge anyone for their reasons going to the BWCA or Quetico, nor to I frown on the level of technology they bring with them. (Well, maybe when I can hear their radio a mile away)  When I was younger it was all about the fishing and the end of day count. But I never took a fish finder.  As time has moved on, it has become less about the fish and more about everything else.  Now I get more fun out of watching the others in the group catch the fish.  I understand why people bring  sonar technology, but in my own little universe and a canoe, it would feel wrong.

Just my 2 cents worth

MossBack

I agree with Old Salt that the fish finder changed the way I fish.  I don't use the devise to find fish, but to know how the structure changes and how deep the water is.  I don't bother with weather forecasts as I get what information I need by looking at the sky.  I do not take anything to keep in touch with home as that changes the tone and feel of a trip.  But I don't begrudge someone else using whatever technologies they want. 

I carry a Spot at my wife's request. A watch and the biggest game changer, a digital camera.

A few years ago I did a Philmont trek. I learned they picked up mail at the out post camps so bought a dozen post cards and stamps and sent to my wife each out post - maybe 5 - and one or two to my sons.  Enjoyed the low tech.

I think I really like the idea of being able to go somewhere and not be bothered with the worldly problems - whether it's things in the news or closer to home with work or even family gossip.  The idea is to get away and push all that stuff out of my mind for awhile.

Going to the BW and QWuetico was perfect for that until the time I took my brother and his 2 teenage sons for their first ever camping and canoeing trip.  We were camped on North Bay of Quetico and my brother had his cell phone with.  I told him not to bother that there would be no reception.  Then one evening he got a text reply from his wife.  He decided to call and got through!  Suddenly there she was on speaker phone and the kids were telling her about the trip.  They were laughing and it was great.  But I was extremely annoyed.  Now we could be reached by the outside.  The escape to nature was broken by technology.  It was very weird hearing a voice on a cellphone in Quetico.

I still have a choice and the freedom to take what I want on a trip.  I can go solo with nothing more than a map if I choose.  I've been wanting to try that sometime if not just to get me back to how I felt on these trips in the 80's and 90's.  I was able to push all concerns out of my brain and just live on the trails.

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I can go solo with nothing more than a map if I choose.

All you really need is a map AND a good compass.
I look at a map to a GPS like a REAL book to a talking book.

There is something real/tangible and to me satisfying looking over a well used paper map.

All mine have campsite markings, corrections of portage trails. Most have the places where streams enter a lake. Fishing spots too.

Everyone has a different comfort level and of course reasons to be "reachable".

Some people can't handle it "MENTALLY" being SOLO and not connected by their electronic gadgets.
Cell phones to many people are the new "cigarettes".  They ARE addicted to them whether the admit it or not.

I just took my 23 year old nephew on his fist BW trip. I carried a inReach for the first time to check in for my sisters benefit. My nephew brought his cell phone even after I told him there would be no service. Little did I know that whenever we were not fishing he would put in ear buds and be either listening to music or playing video games. I was so bummed that he couldn’t unplug and enjoy the wilderness with me. Even when we were sitting by the fire and I got him to put it away he kept asking if I wanted to listen to music. I guess it’s this new generation,I don’t get it. :-[

Now that I have somewhat demonized digital technology, the truth is I do lean on it as well.  I love all of my old Fisher maps, with the years of mark-ups.   I still have and use some of the old waterproof crinkly  paper versions.  I always navigate by map and compass, but......I did buy Quetico GPS mapping software for a backpacking GPS that I already owned.   I have only taken it on my few solo trips, and have never needed to use it, but it gives me some peace of mind.  Yes, I know, I am a hypocrite.

MossBack

a few points to add here.

1. This discussion has mentioned a number of distinctly different tools.  Not all our values are the same for these "tool systems".  By tool systems I mean tools for: comfort, navigation, safety, connectivity(phones/radios -- but SPOT falls under safety).  I submit it is entirely appropriate to view connectivity tools differently than safety tools.

2. Do not confuse the mechanism with its effectiveness. In TomT oirignal post, he said " I can remember getting into Ely in the 80's or 90's and buying a local paper just to have the latest weather forecast before my put in the next day.  I remember closely reading the few books available for any reference to decent campsites."  In other words, he used the best tools to get as much information as possible.  The information he got was orders of magnitude better than what someone 200 years earlier could have used.  It is also order of magnitude less than what one can get now.  The problem is not technology. The issue is for a tool system, does getting the best available information not the ideal.  (My personal preference for connectivity is that is a tool system I do not want at all.  Not a cell phone, not a radio, not smoke signals, not a conversation with a passerby.  One of the pleasures for me of such a trip is to leave the "real world" behind. But for safety, I want the most cost-effective tool available.  Certainly I want something better than smoke signals.  With increasing risk from age and with lower prices now, something like SPOT is now cost-effective.   

3. With respect to navigation, ST commented "I do that on purpose so people can invest a little sweat equity finding them" and "There is something real/tangible and to me satisfying looking over a well used paper map".  I react differently.  Again technology is not a villain here.  The question is do you want mroe information if it is available.  I do.  I do not settle for one map, I want as many maps as I can get.  I want input from other trippers. I want digital maps. I too like paper maps.  To me digital maps are just as real and tangible as paper, just a different medium.  And do not talk to me about sweat equity, at least as I define sweat equity.  One of the joys of all these tools is you can use them before and after your trip.  I put in hours upon hours of planning (as many of you do) before a trip.  That extends the length of the trip significantly because those hours become part of the trip experience.  Using a variety of tools  provides a wider pallette to that trip extension.  And once on the trip, just because the tools gives lots of information, that does not mean one has to become a slave to it.  More information does not preclude exploration, be it out of curiousity or necessity.

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With respect to navigation, ST commented "I do that on purpose so people can invest a little sweat equity finding them"

I said that because we have guests/new members that ask questions about a particular route etc.

You give them a reference like Paddle Planner or refer to the Trip Report archive and 2 things happen usually.

One is they THANK YOU for the info, the other is they NEVER post again about it. Those are the people that want others to do the leg work/sweat equity FOR them.

I'm willing to help anyone but I'm NOT doing ALL the work for them.

This all started with me most likely just being nostalgic.  I loved 1980's Ely and Grand Marais.  Aluminum tanks strapped on the cars parked at the curbs.  It was just so cool for a young suburban kid like me. 

I think we have lost that sense of excitement when we get to instantly know everything about a place just with google.  The sense of wonder and discovery has taken a back seat in many areas of life over the last 20 years or so.

So yeah, I'm nostalgic.  My goal is to do a trip with no radio or go pro this year. My only electronics will be a small digital camera and depth finder.  Sometime in the future I want to go with only an in reach mini and no other electronics.  Woah!  Maybe next year.

I still have my old canon film SLR camera.  Maybe get some slide film and really old school it!  :)

As long as you have your best gal LUNA along you've got all you need. Your solo PLUS one.  ;) ;D

Yeah she just turned 8. I wonder how many trips she has left... so far she’s in great health. We play frisbee most evenings in the park and she’s still awesome. Yesterday she blew my mind with this one catch she made.  :)

I've made five Quetico trips and readying for my sixth. A digital camera is the only electronic device I take into the park. We use maps and a compass to navigate.

Like many here, I look forward to being "unplugged" and in nature. I'm often the butt of camp jokes because I select a site that is removed from my fellow campers. I've told them all, "I didn't drive 1000 miles and paddle 25 more to pitch my tent right next to yours!!"  ;D

I have never and probably will never take a fish finder in. I have so far resisted all attempts to get me to take a Sat phone or a tracking device. I understand those who elect to take these kinds of things.

I do a good bit of research though before we go. My groups are usually 6-8 in number, and I feel the burden to have camp sites prepared and alternates selected if they are taken. If the groups were smaller, I'd freewheel it.

My max group size is four.. My usual is one. I take a Spot and a camera, lately a weather radio (only gets weather forecast). Spot frees my solo travel from an itinerary. I usually have a rough idea of where I'm headed but I often change it radically on a whim.

Great topic! Technology is such a double-edged sword and sometimes difficult to define much less avoid.  My canoe is a feat of technology that allows me to travel farther and faster than an aluminum one.  So, I'm certainly guilty of relying on technology.
However, all my life I've preferred to learn by doing and experimenting.  The process of discovery, failure, success and honing my skills is a huge part of the adventure.   Experiencing that process together with a partner or partners creates connection that can't be put into words.  I'm often dismayed at the amount of information and specifically intel about wild places posted via social media and choose to ignore it as much as possible.  It's like a reading a movie review with spoilers.   
I like simple, and I want to blend into the fabric of the wilderness as much as I can so less technology is more for me.  No go pro, no fancy digital SLR, no GPS, no radio and now also no depth finder.  I'd rather not bring the InReach, and that will probably be next.
With every trip, I look for places to explore that I haven't heard anything about and find new campsites to experience on my own.  I don't need or want a 5 star campsite every night.  I learn a lake based on "feel" and discover good fishing spots on my own.   As time has gone on I'm re-discovering what adventure is.