Well friends, it looks like Harlan Schwartz has made a decision to "move on" and look for new adventures elsewhere.  So the disposition of Red Lake Outfitters seems in limbo at the moment.

Good luck and good fortune my friend (as always indicated by the 'cap note' of each of my posts).

The last of Harlan's videos (posted Sept 27th) addresses his decision toward the end of the vid.

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dd

I enjoyed his comments and wilderness views/skills right up to the point where he went all snobby on making his coffee in the cabin.  :-? ;D ;D

One minute he's making bush tea in a soot-covered
pot, eating berries off the bush to going thru an elaborate process just to make a damn pot of coffee JUST right.  ::) 

I guess my nylon sock method wouldn't cut it with him.  ;) ;D ;D

The business know as Red Lake Outfitters is now operating (in some capacity) as   (You need to Login or Register.

dd

I was surprised as I just found out a couple of days ago. But he and his wife are moving on so it's not that surprising I suppose. I wish them both well.

Interesting note starting this video and more info as others comment on the video

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I just came across this one from his youtube channel that provides a lot more details.

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HighnDry wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2020 at 9:20pm:

I just came across this one from his youtube channel that provides a lot more details.   (You need to Login or Register

  I just watched most of the video up to the part where he's chopping veggies on the log.

  I think he's found out what some of us that are older have learned the hard way too.

  When you are a newcomer to a small isolated town,
especially from the "big city", some if not ALL the locals will NEVER see you as one of them.

  It's made even worse when you do something successfully that they couldn't.

  I dated a gal once that came from a small town in the UP. She was a born/bred proud Yooper as they call themselves. She had moved here to go to nursing school, get some experience in one of the many local hospitals and then move back to her home area.

We got along great and she knew that if I could find steady work I wouldn't of hesitated to move to the UP.

We each took a week's vacation and she took me home to meet her parents/family. That went fine at first but things quickly soured when she asked her family members that worked in construction ( I was a Foreman for a small company then) IF they would help me find a job if WE moved up there?

They were openly hostile about it. Her brothers and some of her male friends got drinking one night and told me that I THOUGHT I was too good for them because I wasn't ONE of them.

  Long story short, I got into a fight with one of them, came out on top and then her brother jumped on me. Pretty well ruined the whole relationship.

I had taken a lot of verbal abuse before it came to blows. I wouldn't have taken it from ANYONE down here, I shouldn't have taken it for so long up there either.

Harlin turned his cheek too many times. If someone ran me off the road, damaged my truck and hurt my dog, I would confront them, man to man in a public setting and either they'd give me a ( * ) whupping or I'd take one.

  Sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand and be ready to defend it. Bullies like he's dealing with ONLY respect one thing and that's someone that puts MORE fear into them than they TRY to put into their victims.

Shoot, Highanddry. Now I'm going to have to watch.

HighnDry wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2020 at 9:20pm:

I just came across this one from his youtube channel that provides a lot more details.   (You need to Login or Register

HighnDry,

Thanks for sharing that video.  I've been watching Harlan's videos for a long time but somehow missed that one.  It explains a lot... at least from his point of view. 

There has been so much of a dust-up in the Red Lake air over the past couple years, it's been hard to know what or who to believe.  Frankly, it is STILL very cloudy from where I sit BUT at least I'm hearing how Harlan wants us to view & understand what had happened up until last July.  As most of us know, he has since departed the scene and his business was sold to Chukuni Outdoor Supply.

Years ago, I'm pretty certain I used that "other" outfitter that Harlan alleges (in the linked video) had been giving him so much trouble.  I found the guy pretty much as described by Harlan... an on-again, off-again, marginal outfitter who mostly worked in the mines.  He was VERY difficult to reach and, seemingly, not nearly as serious & certainly not as successful a business person.  I wasn't particularly impressed. 

On the other hand, Harlan certainly did a lot to promote the region and his business.  He WAS successful.  Therefore, I can certainly envision small town enmities, politics, and hi jinks at play but I don't necessarily know if the way he tells it is the entire story.  Harlan has high credibility with me (ie. he has always done what he said he was going to do) but, likewise, some of the WCPP park officials have decent credibility with me, too... and I KNOW they didn't always see eye-to-eye with Harlan.

I think it is fair to say Harlan was a "change agent" (probably a fairly aggressive one) and, well, we all know that most folks don't do so well with change.

I truly know very little about the reasons for Harlan's departure from the scene and the demise of Red Lake Outfitters.  My bottom line, whatever the reasons were, is: I'm going to miss the guy.  He was an effective "promoter" and I think he did a lot of good for the area.  I think it's sad that, for whatever reasons, folks in Red Lake couldn't play well in their sandbox together.  What with all the fires and now the loss of their top marketing guy and advocate, it may be a while before WCPP activity and popularity recovers.

Jimbo   8-)

HighnDry wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2020 at 9:20pm:

I just came across this one from his youtube channel that provides a lot more details.   (You need to Login or Register

Umm, don't know the guy, never been to WCPP and actually love coming across places in the middle of nothing in particular where I find signs of use by like-minded people - but - that's not where I'd be comfortable putting a fire.

My main reason for sticking my big nose in this is in the beginning when he puts the two logs down and presses on them and they spring back like there are roots under there.

I don't know for sure but I'd not be comfortable doing that myself much less promoting a practice like that on a public forum with the vast reach of YouTube.

The other half of the reason for this post was seeing a BW/Q video recently in which people were cleaning fish on campfire sitting logs. No one said a discouraging word about it and it's been bugging me. We can all agree that's bad, right?

Quote:

We can all agree that's bad, right?

  I can BUT as you noted others apparently had no problem with it.

I noticed the same thing about Harlan's choice of where to build a fire.  I wouldn't build a fire there except maybe in the winter. I think a small wood-burning twig stove is the way to go there.

  Both the fishing cleaning scenario and the choice of fire/spots aren't something I would do but I also don't think they warrant the abuse he says he received either.

  I don't agree with the parks telling people to burn their TP in the firepit either. You're supposed to burn your paper product too but how many times have you've seen a firepit with half-burned items when you pick a campsite.  :o >:(

  I don't plan on going back into the woods the required distance, digging a cat hole and then wandering back TP in hand. I use bio-degradable TP.

I'll bury it in the cat hole, make it look like I was never there and mark the spot with a dead stick sticking up to warn others who might stumble on my spot.

  I don't think they thought that idea through very well.

 

db,

It probably wouldn't have been my choice as a place for a fire, either.  OR, if it was, I would likely have looked around for a large flat rock (or three) to build it on.

On the other hand, burning a fire in an established fire spot (he's used that very spot many times in his previous videos) seems such a small matter in the natural course of events in the boreal forest. We all know that a huge hunk of the WCPP ecosystem has burned up just in the past few years... most of it due to lightning strikes.  I certainly do not advocate "helping that process along" with poor woodcraft and forest stewardship but, at the very beginning of his video, Harlan does emphasize "looking around you" before you build a fire.

I DO agree with your observation re: YouTube.  Every time you express yourself to a wide audience, you are taking a risk.  Not everyone will know the relevant history.  Not everyone will have looked at Harlan's past videos and understand his experience on that very spot. He opens himself up to fair criticism.  It's similar, in a way, to what Stu Osthoff did to himself a year or so back when he put a picture of a paddler NOT wearing a life vest on the front cover of the BWJ.  Holy mackerel, he certainly took crap from holier-than-thou sorts for that oversight!  The reality?  The guy in that BWJ pic was truly an Olympic-caliber swimmer and was paddling in very shallow water.  In similar fashion, I trust Harlan had his situation well under control.

Nevertheless, anytime you venture into the public arena, you are heavily pressured into "political correctness" and you become fair game for critics and/or someone trying to wave their favorite banner.  Stu will likely never publish such a photo, again, despite the unfortunate reality that a LOT of paddlers go around that way (25 years ago I was one of them). Likewise, I'll bet Harlan wishes he had built his fire somewhere else, despite the precautions he was taking.  Both he & Stu opened themselves to criticism, regardless of possibly-vindicating "back stories", and regardless of the realities they were depicting.

I ask: who among us has never paddled without a life preserver?  Who among us has never built a fire that failed to measure up to forest Ranger specs?  In neither case do I believe poor practices were being consciously promoted/advocated.  Yet, when you put a video on YouTube or publish a magazine, you get fried the first time you fail to be PC.  You become a "poor custodian of public trust."

A lot of the ruckus came about due to the comments of a rival outfitter in the Red Lake area.  I say, "let the Red Lake outfitter among us who is without sin cast the first stone." With Harlan out of the picture now,  this former rival may well inherit similar scrutiny, should he ever grow his business to a size where it merits some attention... and that's not going to happen any time soon.

Re: cleaning fish guts on campfire logs, well, I don't know anyone who would argue that's a good thing.  I don't recall that I've ever seen that done in any of Harlan's videos.  Then, again, there are so FEW people using campsites in WCPP, I doubt it would matter much if folks did clean fish on campfire logs.  Heck, I've seen more than one campsite in that park with small TREES growing up through the fire rings!

Later,

Jimbo   8-)   

This Red Lake thing is such a mess and down here we have no way of keeping up. As for Albert and Kelly at Goldseekers, they  were once the go-to outfitter in Red Lake. When Albert started working the mine he started dropping the ball when it came to his outfitting business. Now that his children are older they are back in the outfitting business and will probably do what he used to be known for, good dealings with paddlers.

It was like Albert handed Harlan the customers on a platter, now Harlan has handed them back. Chukuni only bought the store, not Red Lake Outfitting. He is going to do some outfitting but wants to work into it.

Harlan had a knack for combing the rule book for gray areas and pursuing them if it worked for his business. He fought aggressively on a national level in an attempt to be able to access his Olive Lake cabin with a snowmobile. It is interesting that snowmobiling is not allowed in WCPP except with some exceptions but that was a big thing in the haters video. Harlan would do a lot of things in his videos to upset some people. Where he built his fires was no accident and upset some people as he was promoting something unsafe but not against park rules. Claire has always been a protector of WCPP and this caused a lot of friction with Harlan as he pushed what he could legally do because there was not a specific rule against it.

Harlan was getting out before he made the ranting videos so I wish that he had just packed up and not left such an uproar in Red Lake.

Jimbo, You captured my sentiments fairly well. I dont' know what happened but I was going to ask everyone at our QJ Copia gathering. Now at least there's some clarity to the situation, as you say, from Harlan's perspective. Too bad it didn't work out long term. He was a successful promoter for the park.

DB, I'm with you on those points but I figure I'm still too much of a greenhorn to be an authority on anything...at leas that's what my kids tell me  ;D ;D

P.S. Hope to see you at Copia

Well, I'll defer to Marten re: the particulars of what was going on up there.  He knows the players & the situation much better than I do.  As he says, it has been a real "mess." 

Too bad it didn't work out.  Harlan was moving kind of fast for that small town and I guess he didn't bring enough of the locals along for his ride.  A town like that moves at its own speed... and, sometimes, that may amount to not moving at all.  Hey, it's their prerogative, right?

I believe WCPP has a pretty good custodian in Claire.  I only met her a couple times and she came across as both personable & sharp.  I think the park can benefit from both custodians AND promoters.  Maybe they'll be able to work together a little better in the future.

I'd very much like to head back to WCPP, again, but I don't see it happening any time soon.  Too much charcoal lying around for my taste.

Marten, thanks for your insights!

Jimbo   8-)

My favorite part of this, Jimbo's line: "It explains a lot... at least from his point of view.". Still smiling from that one.

Jimbo wrote on Feb 4^th, 2020 at 5:01am:

Too much charcoal lying around for my taste. Marten, thanks for your insights! Jimbo   8-)

Nature's allegory

Jimbo wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2020 at 3:14pm:

I think it is fair to say Harlan was a "change agent" (probably a fairly aggressive one) and, well, we all know that most folks don't do so well with change.

You nailed it right here Jimbo.  It's small minded people who were jealous of Harlan or looked at him as a disruption to their "control" over the area.  They probably saw him as an intruder and representing wholesale change to the area.

I wasn't going to chime in this conversation as it probably would serve no purpose.  However, wondering if anyone other than me have seen the wide trails cut through some of the portages in the park to accommodate a certain person's snowmobiles?  If this would happen in Q or BWCA there would be hell to pay.   I see this whole thing as the Ontario Parks folks wanting to manage their park rather than a commercial interest.

Safe travels.........

TomT wrote on Feb 5^th, 2020 at 1:58pm:

Jimbo wrote on Feb 3rd, 2020 at 3:14pm: I think it is fair to say Harlan was a "change agent" (probably a fairly aggressive one) and, well, we all know that most folks don't do so well with change. You nailed it right here Jimbo.  It's small minded people who were jealous of Harlan or looked at him as a disruption to their "control" over the area.  They probably saw him as an intruder and representing wholesale change to the area.

  I wouldn't assume that Harlan's enemies were ALL small-minded people. Harlan came from southern Ontario which is very Liberal and a very hustling/bustling place. Not knocking that, just saying that how it is.

He came for a trip, fell in love with the area and decided he wanted to make a life for himself up there. Nothing the matter with that either.

  The problem is many people LIKE that small town, slow pace lifestyle. The ones that don't move away after HS, the rest stay.

  Harlan came it with his hard-charging ways that being from where he came from is the norm for people starting their own business.

  To the locals that is EVERYTHING, they don't like about "city" life. Neither side is 100% right or wrong for that matter.

  I have sister and brother-in-law that lived in CA for most of their married lives. When he retired they moved to Prescott AZ because CA was too expensive to continue to live the lifestyle they were accustomed too.

They built a very nice home in a subdivision that the minimum lot size is 2 acres and the zoning is such people can have horses/ goats/llamas/chickens but not BREED them for profit.

They are Rottie lovers and have 2 of them at all times. They fenced in their 2 acres and all was well at first. Then THEIR CA very Progressive values kicked in and the trouble started.

They went to a neighborhood association meeting and complained that the smell from the animals was so bad they couldn't enjoy time outdoors on the patio!

They didn't like that the roads were not paved but hard-packed gravel with a coating to keep the dust down. More horse friendly. There is also a neighborhood GUN RANGE at one end that backs up to state land.

It gets minimal use but it does get used.
Well, that went over like a lead balloon. People told them, you left CA because it became unaffordable to you and now you want to BRING that mentality here!

So now they don't talk to any of their neighbors and of course, they think THEY'RE the ones being treated unfairly.

It appears Harlan isn't the innocent he made himself out to be in that video? That doesn't excuse people vandalizing his property or running him off the road but then that's HIS side of the story too.  :-/

mpeebles wrote on Feb 5^th, 2020 at 2:29pm:

I wasn't going to chime in this conversation as it probably would serve no purpose.  However, wondering if anyone other than me have seen the wide trails cut through some of the portages in the park to accommodate a certain person's snowmobiles?  If this would happen in Q or BWCA there would be hell to pay.   I see this whole thing as the Ontario Parks folks wanting to manage their park rather than a commercial interest. Safe travels.........

Well, we DO know he likes his chain saw.  One of the things he "explained a lot" about in his rant video was the fact he has cut 100 (?) kilometers of portage paths in WCPP.

"Rant" may be a bit of an exaggeration.  I actually find Harlan's rants to be pretty slick, well-thought-out position statements... albeit "unbalanced" ones.  That's NOT to say HE is unbalanced.  Rather, he appears to be a man of strong convictions.  He does a good job of pointing out facts that work for him.  Unfortunately, he remains rather silent about those which do not.  Frankly, I fancy he's a rather good "debater."  He is certainly skilled in homespun, "aw-shucks", back woods (small pun intended) marketing .  Reminds me a little of the Andy Griffith character in the classic movie, "A Face in the Crowd."

He was a go-getter, that's for sure.  I suspect he breaks quite a few eggs to make his omelets.  I'm not sure all the eggs were his to break, however.

Oh, well... I'll miss him.  He was a real character!

Jimbo   8-)

I'd bet some of those snowmobile trails were cut by the First Nation people who still have camps in the park. They have their own hunting/fishing rights as they do in Quetico I would think?

 

Thinking not.  They lead to Olive Lake.

I with Marten on this one. I believe the issues up there are far more complicated than we realize and it's up to them as to how they sort things out.   Being a guest in a foreign country, I respect their rights to manage as they see fit and am grateful that I can visit such a wonderful place. 

"That's all I gots to say about that"  :)

solotripper wrote on Feb 5^th, 2020 at 4:59pm:

I'd bet some of those snowmobile trails were cut by the First Nation people who still have camps in the park. They have their own hunting/fishing rights as they do in Quetico I would think?

While I haven't actually noticed snowmobile trails in the park, I have seen several noted on some of the older maps of the park.  And yes, the First Nation peoples have hunting and fishing rights there as well. 

On my very first WCPP trip, I (and a portion of the group I was in that included MagicPaddler and Jimbo) had the good fortune of having a person from the First Nation as our driver on a return shuttle to Red Lake from Leano.  I believe he was even a Tribal Elder.  Over the course of conversation on the return trip, he did relate that they were permitted to take Woodland Caribou from the park, but because of the relative small population of these caribou in the park, they were severely limited.  (Of course, it is illegal for anyone else to hunt these caribou.)

A few years after this meeting, I remember he and the park superintendent made a presentation at Canoecopia, which I attended.  I've often wondered how he might have felt about revealing all the virtues of the place he calls home to a bunch of strangers.

I'll have to apologize for not remembering his name (dang!).

dd

Nice story dd.  I had the good fortune of talking at length to a First Nations couple while fishing on Red Lake.  We were doing shore lunch in an area we had done so in the past but there was a trailer parked there that hadn't been there in past years.  During our lunch a four wheeler pulled up and we introduced ourselves to each other.  I had some canned pears along and asked if they would like some. The did and loved them.  I gave them the rest of the pears and then they went into their trailer and brought out three packages of goose sausage which they had made.  We chatted a lot about families, what we all did for a living, etc.  It's amazing at how much we have in common as human beings.  I remember their names to this day......Jerry and Helen.

DentonDoc wrote on Feb 5^th, 2020 at 10:20pm:

[quote author=solotripper link=1569790784/21#21 date=1580921995]  On my very first WCPP trip, I (and a portion of the group I was in that included MagicPaddler and Jimbo) had the good fortune of having a person from the First Nation as our driver on a return shuttle to Red Lake from Leano.  I believe he was even a Tribal Elder.  Over the course of conversation on the return trip, he did relate that they were permitted to take Woodland Caribou from the park, but because of the relative small population of these caribou in the park, they were severely limited.  (Of course, it is illegal for anyone else to hunt these caribou.) A few years after this meeting, I remember he and the park superintendent made a presentation at Canoecopia, which I attended.  I've often wondered how he might have felt about revealing all the virtues of the place he calls home to a bunch of strangers. I'll have to apologize for not remembering his name (dang!). dd

DD,

Doug Gilmore?

Jimbo  8-)

Jimbo wrote on Feb 6^th, 2020 at 12:52am:

DentonDoc wrote on Feb 5th, 2020 at 10:20pm: [quote author=solotripper link=1569790784/21#21 date=1580921995]  On my very first WCPP trip, I (and a portion of the group I was in that included MagicPaddler and Jimbo) had the good fortune of having a person from the First Nation as our driver on a return shuttle to Red Lake from Leano.  I believe he was even a Tribal Elder.  Over the course of conversation on the return trip, he did relate that they were permitted to take Woodland Caribou from the park, but because of the relative small population of these caribou in the park, they were severely limited.  (Of course, it is illegal for anyone else to hunt these caribou.) A few years after this meeting, I remember he and the park superintendent made a presentation at Canoecopia, which I attended.  I've often wondered how he might have felt about revealing all the virtues of the place he calls home to a bunch of strangers. I'll have to apologize for not remembering his name (dang!). dd DD, Doug Gilmore? Jimbo  8-)

Jim -

No, I did remember that Doug was the park super at the time.  I just was uncertain about our First Nation driver's name on our 2009 trip.  I was sitting in the back seat of the pickup that returned us to Red Lake, along with MP.  I was thinking you were sitting in the front seat.

dd

I think what upsets me about this mess in Red Lake is that some good people have been slandered and because of lawsuits or threats of lawsuits could not use social media to defend themselves. Publicly Harlan had a stellar reputation and part of that was because he could edit out any comments he did not like from the social media accounts he set or or pressure forums he supported to delete certain threads that contained complaints about him. I had personal friends caught up in problems with Harlan. He would tell clients to just give them their credit card numbers and he would take care of everything. This led to charges that were higher than paddlers thought they  had agreed to. Having been burned this way one friend tried to straighten it out with Harlan but could not. One the next trip he made sure to only pay when he got an invoice. Arriving in Red Lake Harlan insisted he was owed for some maps, my friend insisted Harlan bring up the account and the maps had been paid for. Another paddler told of arriving in Red Lake and Harlan demanded they pay for a canoe rental that they had not requested. Harlan said he had to charge because it was too lake to rent it to someone else. I had heard enough stories that my advice when asked about Harlan was to only pay when you had an invoice. I know there would be another side to these stories but I heard too much. None of these things were ever worth pursuing legal action. That is why when things heated up last summer Superior Airways posted on their Facebook account that anyone with a legal fight with Harlan should contact them and their legal team would help. At this point the war that Harlan started turned against him and soon he had left  town with no notification to his clients with paid for trips still arriving. Not a pretty story and one I hate to write but I just need to put out the "rest of the story."

Gotcha.  Yeah, I probably wrote it down.  If it turns out to be an itch you must scratch, I'll go back & check for you.  [I'm hoping you say "yes" because, now, it's becoming an itch that I can't scratch!]

Anyway, THAT was the guy who told us about the large party of disadvantaged Toronto youths (15-20 teens chaperoned by only 2 slightly older counselors), remember?  He talked about how they came by to visit him & the other elders and to be trained in "living off the land as in the bygone days."  Our 1st Nation driver recounted how they showed them how to use snares, rock traps, & use seines for fishing.  They showed them how to navigate using only the sun, moon, & stars, etc.  The next day he & the elders drove them up to their put-in for a long trip down the Bloodvein River.

Interestingly enough, the teenagers INSISTED on going on their 10 days trip without maps or food (just a few chocolate bars) and only a couple fishing poles.  Rather, they intended to make snares to catch food and build fish-traps the way 1st Nation folks did centuries ago.  I recall expressing my incredulity to our driver and receiving only an unremarkable acknowledgment of a brief nod of that poker face of his.

Then, I said, "Holy S___t!  Aren't you worried?  What do you think is going to happen to them?"

Again, with that deadpan expression and his eyes never leaving that bumpy, dusty access road, our driver replied nonchalantly, "Oh... they gonna die.  Even WE don't do that stuff in "the old way.  They're nuts."

I remember convulsing with laughter over that statement but I guess I took him seriously.  When I got home from Red Lake, I remember checking the Toronto newspapers on-line for stories about "Youth Tragedy in WCPP."  I didn't find anything but I DID ask Doug Gilmore about it at the following year's CanoeCopia.  He just chuckled and said, "Oh, THOSE guys!"  He kept chuckling and finally said, "Well let's just say they made it out of the park OK.  Yep, that was a strange bunch."

Our driver was truly entertaining.

Later,

Jimbo   8-)

Quote:

He would tell clients to just give them their credit card numbers

  I got burned that way once too by an outfitter I used to rent a canoe to do a brook trout fishing trip on the Fox River in the UP. I said I just wanted a canoe, had my own life-jacket/paddle.
  Get there and see they had billed for both the items.
Since it was already on the account, I just got them to give me the same amount in merchadise from their store.

Now if they want my credit card number I decline and tell them I'll send a certified check or pay them out of my PayPal account.

Jimbo wrote on Feb 6^th, 2020 at 2:39pm:

Gotcha.  Yeah, I probably wrote it down.  If it turns out to be an itch you must scratch, I'll go back & check for you.  [I'm hoping you say "yes" because, now, it's becoming an itch that I can't scratch!] Anyway, THAT was the guy who told us about the large party of disadvantaged Toronto youths (15-20 teens chaperoned by only 2 slightly older counselors), remember?  He talked about how they came by to visit him & the other elders and to be trained in "living off the land as in the bygone days."  Our 1st Nation driver recounted how they showed them how to use snares, rock traps, & use seines for fishing.  They showed them how to navigate using only the sun, moon, & stars, etc.  The next day he & the elders drove them up to their put-in for a long trip down the Bloodvein River. Interestingly enough, the teenagers INSISTED on going on their 10 days trip without maps or food (just a few chocolate bars) and only a couple fishing poles.  Rather, they intended to make snares to catch food and build fish-traps the way 1st Nation folks did centuries ago.  I recall expressing my incredulity to our driver and receiving only an unremarkable acknowledgment of a brief nod of that poker face of his. Then, I said, "Holy S___t!  Aren't you worried?  What do you think is going to happen to them?" Again, with that deadpan expression and his eyes never leaving that bumpy, dusty access road, our driver replied nonchalantly, "Oh... they gonna die.  Even WE don't do that stuff in "the old way.  They're nuts." I remember convulsing with laughter over that statement but I guess I took him seriously.  When I got home from Red Lake, I remember checking the Toronto newspapers on-line for stories about "Youth Tragedy in WCPP."  I didn't find anything but I DID ask Doug Gilmore about it at the following year's CanoeCopia.  He just chuckled and said, "Oh, THOSE guys!"  He kept chuckling and finally said, "Well let's just say they made it out of the park OK.  Yep, that was a strange bunch." Our driver was truly entertaining. Later, Jimbo   8-)

Yeah.  That's the way I remember it also.  I seem to remember him saying that they would have anyone flying over the area they were supposed to be in would keep an eye out for them.  I also checked for a few days after our return to see if there were any sad stories being posted about events in WCPP.

So I guess there were no SOS's issued, after all!

dd

Quote:

Again, with that deadpan expression and his eyes never leaving that bumpy, dusty access road, our driver replied nonchalantly, "Oh... they gonna die.  Even WE don't do that stuff in "the old way.  They're nuts."

  Back in my backpacking days 4 of us had just come back from hiking Isle Royale. We were staying at a State Park campground.

  We met some local 1st Nation people who were camped there too for some event.

It started raining steadily and when evening came we struggled to get a good fire going. My buddy, who was 3 sheets into the wind decided he was going to go down and ask how THEY had gotten a roaring fire going?

  The next thing we see is two old Ojibway guys and him coming back to our campsite. Our buddy says " There going to show us the Ojibway method of fire building"  ;)

One of the old guys had a beer can in his hand. He steps forward POURS the beer on the fire and quickly steps back :-?

  The fire bursts into a roaring flame that ignited all the damp wood! We said WHAT the hell was that?

He laughed and said, " it was COLEMAN fuel, that's what the Ojibway WE know use now". We had a good laugh about that.

  Every time I see someone struggling with a campfire that comes to mind.

Marten- thanks for your insights. I hadn't read your post until now but it explained a lot of the backstory. I was just curious what happened up there and I'm mourning the loss of a good outfitter. I'll miss seeing him up there whenever I get to WCPP next. Well, that's life. Change happens and we go on! See you all at Copia.

Well said Marten.  I wholeheartedly agree.

Later......

Marten,

I failed to notice the post that you "slipped in" during the 3 minute interval when I was responding to DD in this thread.  Geez, I kinda sensed SOMETHING was going on to precipitate Harlan's sudden departure.  I hate that it was THAT sort of thing. 

As I listened to his "rant" and to other statements he has made, the strong feeling I got was, "we're not hearing everything."  Back when he was airing his gripes against the park service in his earlier videos, I remember SO MANY of his followers (including some satisfied customers) voicing their ardent support for whatever he was saying and making harsh remarks about Claire & others.  He was putting himself out there like some kind of martyr... and his followers were buying it big time (especially since there was so much silence from the other side). 

Me?  I didn't know what to think.  Harlan has always seemed such a personable guy and a positive advocate for the park.  As I've said before, he's a very good marketer.

Clearly there have been some issues that did not gain public attention.  Whether the cause was intentional malfeasance or simple slipshod business practices doesn't seem to matter, anymore.  The responsibility was his to clear it up. Instead, he seems to have put more energy into distracting rants - legitimate or not - that painted only a partial picture of what was going on.

Like others have said, I appreciate your insights and filling in of gaps.  I'm guessing the picture in Red Lake is even more complex than our remote ruminations can conjure.

Later,

Jimbo   8-)

I've never met the guy but I watched some of those videos you mentioned Jimbo and thought the same thing you did  :-/

  There are ALWAYS 2 sides to every story and the REAL truth IMHO lies somewhere in between.

What is really telling is him leaving town and NOT notifying his PAID clients. That speaks volumes right there. You don't bring innocent people into your squabbles.

Well, it's in the rear view mirror now and I only hope a reputable outfitter fills the gap that he's left.  Maybe a local.

TomT wrote on Feb 10^th, 2020 at 7:06pm:

Well, it's in the rear view mirror now and I only hope a reputable outfitter fills the gap that he's left.  Maybe a local.

I know Richard at Chukuni who stepped up to help some left stranded by Harlan is going to do some outfitting and Albert at Goldseekers has been ramping back up for over a year. I noted Goldseekers on Facebook was promoting a 30% off sale for booking flights early and his rates looked very good at list price. A big difference I saw too was that he was up front about lowering cost even more if he could match up your early booking with someone else using the back-haul on your flight. Nothing in this for me but wanted those planning a WCPP trip to know that full outfitting and flights are easily booked for WCPP and the surrounding areas.

HighnDry wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2020 at 9:20pm:

I just came across this one from his youtube channel that provides a lot more details.   (You need to Login or Register

After watching the majority of this (it gets a bit repetitive so I bailed on the end) I would love to hear from the guy who he is targeting as the perpetrator.  To me it does sound like locals who did not like a city whipsmart coming in and turning their world upside down.  It does sound like plain jealousy when the BS is removed. But so far it's a one sided story so if the locals want to tell their side I hope they do.

Also, there's no good reason for the vandalism and running off the road.  It should have never gotten to that point.  He obviously rubbed some people very wrong. So maybe HE could have been better at dealing with the situation.

Joe Robinet (a very  popular man on you tube) is going to be back at Canoecopia doing program on WCPP. Harlan outfitted him last summer and from comments on his trip video he heard a  lot from  Harlan. Ontario parks no longer promote their parks at canoe shows so it is going to be hard to find out much.

I find myself wondering why Ontario Parks made such a decision re: canoe shows.  Any insights?

Jimbo   8-)

I recall reading some time ago that part of the Quetico park mission was to provide a meaningful wilderness experience.   But at the same time to have enough attendance through fees for it to pay its own way.

Is it possible that they have hit the sweet spot in visitors that at the moment no "advertising" at sport shows is needed?

I see attendance stats posted occasionally, but at times they seem to contradict each other?

MB

Jimbo wrote on Feb 11^th, 2020 at 3:21pm:

I find myself wondering why Ontario Parks made such a decision re: canoe shows.  Any insights? Jimbo   8-)

   One thing I've learned in many conversations with Quetico Dave over the years is that there is often a HUGE disconnect between the locals (outfitters) and the bureaucrats that run the park system.

  Dave was mad that the park would give American border outfitters in his view better access to the park than local outfitters based on policy differences between the 2 groups?

  The policies that the government runs the parks under are often set by people who have a completely different mindset on what a "Wilderness Experience" should be?

  At one time someone floated the idea that they should BAN fishing in the park and NO campfires either. That didn't fly obviously but the fact that someone thought it SHOULD tell you there is a disconnect between the people that rely on the visitors of the park to help make a living and the bureaucrats who develop park policies.

   

That place, it’s so crowded nobody goes there anymore. ;D

I have seen that there are people in every agency that controls the public lands who would rather that no one would tread on them. "If you don't build it they won't come" is their strategy from the seats of power. I know the Ontario Parks decision to not attend shows came from higher powers than those that want to promote the parks to folks like us.

That says a lot. I've always wondered why there weren't better roads for example built around parks such as WCPP and Wabakimi. It would appear because the powers-at-be didn't desire them to be built perhaps. Roads would create better access and more visitors.

HighnDry wrote on Feb 12^th, 2020 at 4:28am:

That says a lot. I've always wondered why there weren't better roads for example built around parks such as WCPP and Wabakimi. It would appear because the powers-at-be didn't desire them to be built perhaps. Roads would create better access and more visitors.

   The policial power in Canada is centered as here in the heavily populated urban areas. The difference between them and us is that with our much larger population our rural population still has a lot of pull.

  In Canada that is not true at all.
  A dozen years or so ago the province of Ontario BANNED Black Bear hunting. There was NO scientific reason for this. In fact, the black bear population was climbing. Government biologists said they NEEDED to keep the population in check. To outfitters that run a business that caters to hunters in the season and the local businesses that get more business, it was a devastating blow.

  There was another element and that was the SAFETY of the rural folks. The bears lost their fear of humans. They were coming into town, raiding the dumpsters and breaking into homes. Towns, where the kids had to wait for the bus in the dark, started having ARMED adults watching over them.

  So HOW did the powers that be in Ontario decide this ban was NEEDED?

  Well, the biggest city in Ontario is Toronto which is the Canadian version of San Francisco in its political/social views.

  It is ALSO home to the largest branch of PETA in Canada. They don't want ANYONE hunting/fishing, eating meat, etc.  Someone sent them a video of POACHERS shooting a mother bear/cubs out a tree to harvest the organs for folk medicine cures.

  Well, they got a petition drive going that showcased how cruel HUNTING was and put it on a ballot initiative. They used that video to make people that know NOTHING about hunting/wilderness or RURAL life vote to ban bear hunting.

The rural people fought it tooth and nail but it passed.

Many of the same-minded folks set Park policies.

I remember being at the same breakfast table as Caire and also the then Supt. of Quetico. He knew I was sharing a program with Claire that day about my explorations in WCPP and said to me. "Why would you share with others these wonderful things you have discovered." Claire held her tongue until we  were alone and then assured me that she did not share that attitude and apologized for his comment. One of those things you can't "Unhear."

Marten wrote on Feb 12^th, 2020 at 6:33pm:

I remember being at the same breakfast table as Caire and also the then Supt. of Quetico. He knew I was sharing a program with Claire that day about my explorations in WCPP and said to me. "Why would you share with others these wonderful things you have discovered." Claire held her tongue until we  were alone and then assured me that she did not share that attitude and apologized for his comment. One of those things you can't "Unhear."

   That sounds like the guy QD had problems with when he was still outfitting? 

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I had mentioned a few things about Harlan's past  and thought I would add the background info. Note the date that he purchased a home in British Columbia. It seems his exit was long in the planning.

Quote:

Schwartz said he plans to use a snowmobile to access his land, even if he never gets formal approval from Ontario Parks. He said he will fight any charges in court.

   That will win you, friends.

This link is from his new home town but not sure what it means??
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Click on the ABOUT US link.
Check out the pic on the left and read the type of tours you can take. THAT might explain a lot.  ;) ;D ;D

Well, there sure isn't much 'about us' there.  He does seem to be a good marketer.  I don't suppose we'll them at 'copia though.

Umm, just a point of order from a marginally interested passerby. Are we helping anyone who wants to go to WCPP at this point?

Seems odd that his bridges are burned and now he’s in the transportation business. I never would have guessed it. I would be shocked if he was at Copia. He probably doesn’t have any need and he would get lots of questions...

db wrote on Feb 14^th, 2020 at 10:43pm:

Umm, just a point of order from a marginally interested passerby. Are we helping anyone who wants to go to WCPP at this point?

The thread will at least prevent folks from wasting their time trying to contact Red Lake Outfitters and let them know that Goldseekers and Chukuni are who to contact. The other helpful part is exonerating some who were thrown under the bus and can't explain their side.

db wrote on Feb 14^th, 2020 at 10:43pm:

Umm, just a point of order from a marginally interested passerby. Are we helping anyone who wants to go to WCPP at this point?

As a newcomer to the WCPP area, you hit the nail on the head with that quote.  We just want to get up there and enjoy the area.  We are planning on coming in August and have spoken a few times with Albert.  He's been very helpful.  WCPP is a true treasure!

Marten wrote on Feb 15^th, 2020 at 2:43am:

db wrote on Feb 14th, 2020 at 10:43pm: Umm, just a point of order from a marginally interested passerby. Are we helping anyone who wants to go to WCPP at this point? The thread will at least prevent folks from wasting their time trying to contact Red Lake Outfitters and let them know that Goldseekers and Chukuni are who to contact. The other helpful part is exonerating some who were thrown under the bus and can't explain their side.

It's been helpful to run this problem so to speak to ground. It's also been insightful to understand the local politics between outfitters up there and the park. It's certainly given me some ideas of who to work up there for my own outfitting during the next potential trip up to WCPP.

Here is my rant. 

-- Harlan.  Nice guy.  Uber expensive for my diy tastes. TONS of potential to run up a bill here, if not mindful.  $350 to shuttle a vehicle to Lund Lk, five years ago, seemed excessive.

-- Quetico Dave. Nice guy. I realize that he has his followers. Our experience was so-so. We were forced to use another outfitter when things went off the rails AFTER we got on-site.

-- Cleaning fish in camp.  C'mon.

-- Leaving the parks w/ fish.  Really?

-- db: Thanks (as always), for maintaining this site and putting up with us knuckleheads who think we know shit.  :)

Thank You,   --paw

I see Harlan is still continuing his outdoor pursuits in one of his latest videos.
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Brand new pot and a cleanly shaven neck? Doh!

Is there still snow out there or did he head north again in BC?

I don't recall if this was previously ascertained, but it looks like Harlan hung onto the Olive Lake property in the park.

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That’s where the money is...

Canadian clients must be filling it this year! It's definitely not any of us. :(

I thought he mentioned in one of the vids from the outpost that all clients had cancelled so he decided to stay the summer with his wife but I have not seen her since the earliest videos.