...FSN is rebroadcasting the Twins ‘91 World Series championship games. Game 1 on now. Great chance to see Puck, Hrbie, and the gang. Jack Morris is pitching a shutout. 8-)

It will be a long time before I am that bored.

The Chicago sports station has shown complete playoff games/series culminating with the championships from the Blackhawks, Bulls, and now White Sox. 

It's gonna be a strange summer.

Miller and Busch will need bailouts.

I was actually watching a rerun golf tournament ....ughh! (at least I was on the eliptical at the time).

I'm gonna spice things up this week and sort out all the loose nuts and bolts that I've accumulated over the years.  After I finish that it's off to the next level of excitement...... sorting out and counting loose change.  I have several yogurt containers full and it's mixed with some Canadian as well.  Wonder how much I have  :)

Quote:

sort out all the loose nuts and bolts that I've accumulated over the years.

   I thought that was what this forum is for.  :-? ;) ;D ;D

Mike - you have Canadian yogurt?!  And I thought the border was closed.... :D

portage dog wrote on Apr 15^th, 2020 at 3:36pm:

Mike - you have Canadian yogurt?!  And I thought the border was closed.... :D

I have my sources!   They wish to remain confidential 8-).

I'm going "shack wacky" :D

Quote:

I'm going "shack wacky" Cheesy

  Be thankful you don't live in MI.
Our Governor has banned people from going to their up-north shacks BUT allows people that live in other states who have shacks up-north to travel there?

You can go to a Wal-mart while practicing social distancing. You can buy food/drugs. You wander over to the hardware section to buy some paint for a Honey-Do project while your quarantined, that's a no-no.

Same with getting some fertilizer for your lawn.
You're IN the bldg, practicing safe social distancing
but can't go to every dept. :-?

  Oh, we can go fishing but NOT in our boats. You either fish from shore OR you can go out in a CANOE!
  That's why they had the drive-in protest in the state capital Lansing today. This state is going Shacky Wacky to the point of open revolt.  >:(

Some misinformation ST you can't travel to your cottage from out os state unless it is your residence and you are returning home. The reason for the travel ban is an attempt to conserve medical resources in a part of the state that has few. It is the same in rural MN- travel to second homes is discouraged. This is actually fairly wise- in Idaho the highest concentration of COVID 19 cases  in the nation(number of cases/1000 population) is in the area around Ketchum due to the number of folks that fled (often by private jet) their homes in California or Washington. I would strongly suggest that one avoid television news for factual information. TV is served by viewers and viewers love to get stirred up. Conflict sells, information not so much.

Solus, what’s your recommendation for news?

There is nothing in the Governor's ban that PROHIBITS out of state people from traveling to MI to their vacation homes. That is what has so many people upset.

  You can argue the merits of banning travel to areas that have limited healthcare but what's the difference between me going north or some guy from Ohio?

  The people in N. Michigan that support the ban on going to your vacation home are some of the ones that don't want out of state people coming either.

  I get my news from a lot of sources including official state ones in times like this.

Rather than listen to what the media says the mayor, governor, or president says they said I would rather hear what they said.  I find many of the speeches/comments are on YouTube.  The advantage of Youtube is I can watch when I want and at 1.5 speed.

True... and often they are easily convicted by their own words.

Re: media, unfortunately, we should probably listen to both Fox and CNN, then plant our flag somewhere in the middle, per our own best judgment.

Remember the song "Mrs. Robinson" ?  The line: "Joltin' Joe has left & gone away"?  By my reckoning, the same can now be said about Walter Cronkite.

Never has he been so sorely missed.

Jimbo  8-)

Quote:

Re: media, unfortunately, we should probably listen to both Fox and CNN, then plant our flag somewhere in the middle, per our own best judgment.

  I listen to Fox more because I lean more to the right.
I do watch more liberal news outlets but that's only to see how THEY parse someone's words to suit their agenda.

MP has it right in my book. I DETEST any "journalist" telling me that THEY need to interpret what someone said when I just got done hearing it first person.
   I often go to YouTube, listen to the speech/interview. Sometimes they even scroll the words. I'll rewind on occasion to make sure I heard it right.
  Then I watch a news station or read an article on-line from a news outlet and compare them.

  ADD a word here, omit one there and COMPLETELY take something out of context to further someone's agenda and you wouldn't know the original comment at all.

  One great thing about the Internet is that you have information sources at the touch of a key. Sure some are weird conspiracy theorists BUT even they can point you to things that are NOT so crazy and often ARE the truth.

  I'm seeing that right now with ever-increasing Intel that says the Wuhan Virus came from one of the two Chinese labs right near that infamous wet market.

I heard that more than a month ago, from Chinese guy who was on Tucker Carlson's show. He monitors the Chinese internet.

He said that right before the Chinese said they had an outbreak, there was a story in a small neighborhood type newspaper in Wuhan that had caught his eye.

It was about a worker at one of those labs having been bitten by a bat and going to local clinic for medical attention. Next thing the story breaks and he checks back to the paper only to find the paper was no longer in business AND it was erased from public records like it never existed!

  He also said the type of bat that bit her was NOT the kind of bat they sell for food at that wet market but they DO use in those labs.

  Now it appears that someone was infected by accident got treated and wasn't quarantined because being a new virus they didn't know there was such a long incubation period or maybe the bitten worker NEVER told anyone for fear of losing their job?

  So don't believe everything you hear/read, but don't completely discount it either. A little online detective work you can find out a lot of things you'll never hear in the mainstream media for various reasons.

Jimbo wrote on Apr 16^th, 2020 at 11:52am:

True... and often they are easily convicted by their own words. Re: media, unfortunately, we should probably listen to both Fox and CNN, then plant our flag somewhere in the middle, per our own best judgment. Remember the song "Mrs. Robinson" ?  The line: "Joltin' Joe has left & gone away"?  By my reckoning, the same can now be said about Walter Cronkite. Never has he been so sorely missed. Jimbo  8-)

Jim I don’t agree!
Why listen to Fox and CNN to find out what they think Trump said or what they want you to think Trump said when you can listen to what Trump said. You are a smart guy you can interpret for yourself.

Go to
  (You need to Login or Register
Select of the Fox News casts with the date you want to watch.  You don’t get a reporter you get the speech as presented.  You can set the speed. I have trouble understanding the reporter’s questions on 1.75 but 1.5 works fine.

I don't dispute the value in listening to speeches, verbatim, via YouTube.

Unfortunately, most such political speeches are propaganda (from the left and from wherever our alleged leader is standing at the moment). They seldom offer much value, if any.  The news I look for during this crisis comes from the likes of Dr. Fauci; stuff you can actually derive something useful from.  Instead, for the last couple weeks, all I hear from our daily "Corona-virus Task Force" briefings is self-congratulatory campaign rhetoric... regardless of whether I listen to it on Fox, on CNN or on YouTube.

Like ST, I lean to the right.  Heck, I must even shamefully confess I voted for the current administration.  Generally, I quickly attempt to exculpate myself by insisting that our political system gave us the worst choice I've ever seen in a presidential election... but, truthfully, I should have paid closer attention. Since then, I have listened carefully to the actual words of the guy I voted for.  He told me such things as: his inaugural crowds were bigger than Obama's, a hurricane was headed to Alabama (then made his weather service adjust their map), etc. and etc. and then, finally, that a virus that affected less than 15 individuals in the USA was no problem and it would go away as soon as it warmed up (listen to his actual words contained in this link which I believe to be mostly factual:    (You need to Login or Register ).  Of course, there are many more examples.  My point is: that the inability to confess even harmless, simple mistakes, and to instead "double-down" and never admit "errors" is a critical flaw in a national leader... especially now.  It has shaken my confidence and has, almost certainly and irretrievably, lost my vote.

That last example I gave (out of the many dozens I could surely find on YouTube) was likely the most grievous.  I'll leave it to future historians to define the magnitude of our failure to address an exponential growth curve situation in a timely manner.  Personally, I believe it will be spelled out in terms of tens of thousands of lives.  However, I shall defer to their objectivity and perspective, as Time reveals more, for any final judgment.

Again, my disillusionment stems from small issues (crowd sizes, weather reports... the easily verifiable stuff) and a core disposition to never admit a mistake.  To err is human, they say, and I could forgive that... if ever it was admitted. 

Right about now, however, I insist upon a leader whose words can be believed.  I insist on credibility.  I sincerely hope our political process will yield a better choice this time around.

I am reading a book right now (I'm 815 pages deep into its 1300 pages), one that won every major award in sight for its thoroughness, detail & historical accuracy.  I recommend it to anyone who can keep their eyelids open through it; it's an endurance test.  Anyway, the striking thing for me was this: quote after quote after quote from actual speeches made at the time have a very familiar "ring" to them, seemingly echoed in today's news.  Most of the book's contents come directly from eyewitness reports, fully recorded speeches, and captured documents that came to light during the Nuremburg trials.  The book is entitled, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and the star of the book wasn't inclined to admit mistakes, either. 

As George Santayana said, ""Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."  Whatever your political leanings - and, remember, I lean right - I urge vigilance.

That's my final word on the subject in this forum... and I will not blame db in the least should he elect to "delete" this particular post and others that have gotten "political."  They probably have no business here.

Jimbo   8-)

I prefer to read for information. For broadcast (almost always radio- I don't have TV) I like the government sponsored broadcasters, CBC, BBC, NPR. I want a news source to factual. Fox and MSNBC etc play to their audience, spin wild conspiracy theories designed to appeal to their audience , the theories backed by little more than the guy (its almost always a guy) promoting them on the show [eg COVID 19 having been a bio-agent developed by China]. The outlet should have a rigorous system of fact checking (eg The New Yorker, Wall Street Journal, New York Times) and notification of when they have erred. Unfortunately nearly all of television news has become a ratings driven form of entertainment, and the entertainment consists of getting stirred up and angry over the things that could have been easily predicted would get you stirred up and angry.
Want to figure out what the intended audience is pay attention to the commercials; that alone should shame you into switching channels or better yet turning it off.

solotripper wrote on Apr 16^th, 2020 at 1:42am:

There is nothing in the Governor's ban that PROHIBITS out of state people from traveling to MI to their vacation homes. That is what has so many people upset.   You can argue the merits of banning travel to areas that have limited healthcare but what's the difference between me going north or some guy from Ohio?   The people in N. Michigan that support the ban on going to your vacation home are some of the ones that don't want out of state people coming either.   I get my news from a lot of sources including official state ones in times like this.

We have a humble cottage on a small private lake in southwestern Michigan--not "up north" as so many in our state do, but mainly west and some south from us here.  It is about 75 miles away and we can drive there without stopping or interacting with any other person.  It is about as remote as our first home, which is in a rural area.  The nearest neighbor rarely comes there, and the other neighbor and his wife are still in Arizona. We don't see anyone but each other. This is a safer option than our first home, I suspect, and if we were to get sick we would head home again, since the hospital situation would be better.  I was at the lake last Friday and Saturday and will probably be there again in a few days.

Like Neal, I am irritated at the unfairness of this edict.  According to our governor, we are prohibited from going to our second home on the lake.  Our little lake is inhabited by approximately 2/3 "weekend people" and the rest permanent year-round residents.  Of that 2/3, at least half are people who come from the Chicago area, mainly South Chicago, (a current "hot spot") to be at their cottages, to a county in Michigan that has very, very few Covid19 cases.

They are not prohibited from coming to their lake homes, but we are.  It is a small thing to be upset about, but it also means that I am not that serious about following the governor's edict.  I may, or I may not.   ;)

Michigan is hard hit and I realize that.  But some sense needs to be used with the guidelines.  Liquor stores and marijuana distributors are still open, but we cannot buy paint if we want to do a home project, or plants for the garden.  Everyone has their own idea of what is "essential", I guess. 

I hate to see this thread turn political. . .but I also was realizing as I read Jimbo's long post that I could have written that.  Not as effectively and well, but nevertheless almost the same story. 

This is a mess our country is in right now.  I see the possibility of our planned mid-June vacation in northern Minnesota getting less and less likely every day.  Heartbreaking.   :(

I watch a lot of YouTube too....good, bad, indifferent, whatever!  This morning I was watching a criminal defense attorney discussing the covid, constitutional rights, and traveling to one's second home.  His take on traveling is that if you travel from another state, you are covered by personal rights by the constitution.  I guess there are some loop-holes in local government that do allow your local governor to be able to make demands on his own state  constituents but cannot overstep the general constitutional rights we all have..... :-?
ALSO a good documentary about "the origin of the Covid-19 virus" on YouTube which discusses Wuhan, a biological labratory, a female scientist who had been studying the SARS virus and who (God know why !!!) also did some combining with the HIV virus to attain those "crowns/immunity attackers" from it and attached them to SARS.  She wrote a paper about her findings back in December (?...was published in a reputable journal) and apparently somehow lost control of what she developed and it ended up somehow infecting the wet market (Less than 10 miles from her lab) we all know about now.  Since then she is AWOL in China and her research paper has been "lost or missing". 
Don't know if that documentary is still available on YouTube but it is worth a watch if you are interested and can find it. 
Soooooo glad I live on the fringes of society, have access to a big food garden this summer to stock up with, and am a retiree who doesn't mind being home and flying solo.     IC

" Of course, there are many more examples.  My point is: that the inability to confess even harmless, simple mistakes, and to instead "double-down" and never admit "errors" is a critical flaw in a national leader... especially now.  It has shaken my confidence and has, almost certainly and irretrievably, lost my vote."

Well put.

Effective leadership requires humility in the face of the vastness of the unknown. To claim possession of the answer before an understanding of the question is folly.

Solus wrote on Apr 16^th, 2020 at 3:18pm:

" Of course, there are many more examples.  My point is: that the inability to confess even harmless, simple mistakes, and to instead "double-down" and never admit "errors" is a critical flaw in a national leader... especially now.  It has shaken my confidence and has, almost certainly and irretrievably, lost my vote." Well put. Effective leadership requires humility in the face of the vastness of the unknown. To claim possession of the answer before an understanding of the question is folly.

   There is also the need in MOST of us to fight back when attacked. No other Potus has been attacked like this 24/7 since the day they took office.

  When 99% of the coverage you get is NEGATIVE even when you've done many POSITIVE things like building the economy, you develop a BUNKER mentality.

  Yup, he doesn't take criticism very well but when that's ALL you get, you tend to overcompensate and not in a good way.

  I was right with Solus until I read the New York Times and NPR which are among the worst IMHO on fact-checking. But hey, that's me.

  Bottom line this Covid-19 crisis is laying a lot of weak links in this country's armor open for all to see.
I hope we learn something when the dust is settled.

  One thing I think we all can agree on is voting in the 2020 election is going to be one of the most consequential votes you'll EVER cast.

This country is at a fork in the road. The END destinations are so far apart, it will take decades or maybe never IF we choose wrong and want to go in the other direction.

  I'm voting even if I have to wear a hazmat suit to do it.  ;) ;D ;D

I do watch Fox News with an awareness of their bias. I also voted for Trump in the last election and will likely vote for him in the next one. Our country and world is facing down a crisis unlike any other in our lifetime. IMO, everyone got it wrong early on. I didn’t think it was a big deal until mid-March. I thought it was an overreaction to cancel Copia, but was quickly proven wrong. They made the right call. That’s small potatoes.

I tend to evaluate politicians and others by what they do more than by what they say. I don’t like a lot of what Trump says. I am not a fan of the self-congratulations. But, I do like most of what he has done. Closing travel to and from China and Europe turns out to have been wise, for example. Also, the guidelines have proven to be effective. He has been effective in ramping up production of PPE and ventilators.

It is up to the state governments to make decisions regarding their states and the federal government is the backstop. The media seems to have it backwards on this point. Back in my heyday, I responded in disaster relief to 9/11, Katrina, Sandy, and many others. FEMA came in to provide coordination between the affected states, but the states made the calls. States had their own stockpiles of food, water, medicines, etc. We have had an unprecedented number and severity of disasters in recent years which no doubt led to a depletion of state and federal stockpiles. We also made a huge strategic error in trusting China to provide our medicines and PPE. My points are that assigning blame is not helpful, and that we, as a country, need to focus on solutions. Just like we got free of OPEC, we need to be free of communist China government. I hope one day that the Chinese people can be free of the communist government.

One of my news sources is our state government health department daily updates. Our Minnesota governor seems to be inclined to keep us locked down. He is likely to experience a similar reaction to Michigan. He is considering closing the BWCAW, for example. One of the factors that affects me personally is that I had knee replacement in the last round of surgeries at Mayo before the shutdown. My rehab is going well, and I look forward to getting out of the house and doing more walking and hiking. I’m starting to go ‘shacky wacky’.

New York Times is one of the most rigorous journalism outlets in terms of "facts". Their op ed and story selection lean left but they are one of the most reliable sources for information   (You need to Login or Register

NPR again left-center bias but  again "Very High for factual reporting due to thorough sourcing and very accurate news reporting."

The key is thorough sourcing and accurate reporting.

How does Fox fare?
To quote:"Overall, we rate Fox News strongly Right-Biased due to editorial positions and story selection that favors the right. We also rate them Mixed factually and borderline Questionable based on poor sourcing and the spreading of conspiracy theories that later must be retracted after being widely shared. Further, Fox News would be rated a Questionable source based on numerous failed fact checks by hosts and pundits, however straight news reporting is generally reliable, therefore we rate them Mixed for factual reporting."
"   (You need to Login or Register

I very much dislike all politicians, especially the ones who started as lawyers, which is nearly all of them.

Winston Churchill commented that "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all of the others"

That is the way I feel about the current president, he is horrible, except for all of the other choices we were faced with, left or right.

Jimbo wrote on Apr 16^th, 2020 at 11:52am:

Re: media, unfortunately, we should probably listen to both Fox and CNN, then plant our flag somewhere in the middle, per our own best judgment.

Actually, I've taken "the road less traveled."  I don't watch either.

I did give FOX a listen a couple of times in the beginning, but soon classified it as a complete joke with respect to news coverage.  It was about that time I began my checklist of what not to watch.

Rule #1:  Don't watch a news outlet that is controlled by a billionaire unless you want to be swayed by the billionaire's propaganda.  (Removed FOX, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal from my list.)

Rule #2:  If your critical dialogue to the TV runs longer than the "news" broadcast, turn it off.  (Scratch CNN, MSNBC).

Rule #3:  Know what the political bent of a news source is before you invest time with it.  (If you are so naive as to believe the New York Times and NPR are not going to have a liberal tilt, you are simply not paying attention.)

Rule #4:  If TV coverage of "news" has more than 2 talking heads (broadcaster and 2 "others"), turn it off.

Rule #5:  If you spend more time fact checking a source that it took to extract information from it, flush it down the toilet.

I will stop here.  I'm sure you don't want to see the next 20 or so.  (BTW:  News sources in parentheses is intended to represent an example and not an exhaustive list.)

I also hope you are not cursed with an analytic mind.  Would you like to hear how I parse TV commercials?  No, I didn't think so!  My wife knows full well that watching TV with me is not a "spectator sport."

dd

What we tend to watch or listen to is mostly conformational bias which reinforce our current biases.  We're just emotionally comfortable there.  It takes an open mind to actually listen to opposing view points (remember reading is just another form of listening) and then make decisions based on that information....either incorporate it or reject it. 
Reasonable people will come to the correct decision.
Albert Einstein said "For every problem there is one solution which is neat, simple and wrong".

Stay safe.........

Jim
I look at results and if we have real death rates and overflow of hospitals that are higher than other countries are having I will say he/we has not done a good job. Just curious how would you compare the seriousness of covid-19 as far as ability to put people in the hospital to other seasonal diseases.

Solus,

Who checks the FACT CHECKERS?
I watch Fox news more often than any other mainstream media outlet.

I've watched LIBERAL guests and MORE than few Fox OPINION people go hard after the President.

I rarely see that on the other outlets. If they do have a Conservative on they often shout them down or constantly interrupt them.

  On Fox, you have the people that present the news and then the Opinion people. They are clearly marked as such.

You go to most other mainstream news stations you see NEWS people making OPINION/COMMENTARY interjecting THEIR bias as presenting it as fact.

  The recent Covid-19 briefing where they played the video montage of news organizations downplaying the Covid-19 danger and the timeline of the WH response as Jimbo said, condemned them with their own words.

  When I was in the Army 68-70 there was a lot going on. Racial tensions at home carried over into the Armed forces.

I met guys from virtually every state and territory.
I had rednecks/city-country blacks, surfer dudes and cowboys from out west.

  One thing MOST of us could agree on, except the people we bonded over NOT liking.

No matter WHAT color/race, the people from NYC in fact most big cities were universally DISLIKED by all.

NYC was the worst. EVERYTHING according to them was BETTER than any other place. Every one of them, big/little had a mouth on them like a character from the classic mob movie Wiseguys. They ALL thought they were tough guys. I know firsthand that wasn't even close to the truth.

  President Trump is your classic NYC guy PLUS he's a salesman. I apologize to any QJ members who are in sales, but we've all dealt with salespeople that are overbearing/braggarts and that have questionable relationships with the truth, at least part of the time.

I like MOST of what he's done but wouldn't want to be his buddy. I DON'T have to LIKE someone on a personal level to RESPECT the job they've done.
I hate my auto mechanic but he's a great mechanic and works for a fair price.

I'll probably do what I did the last election, vote for the least objective choice based on their performance NOT their personalities.

  Up till this point, my Liberal friends were bragging to me how much their 401k and stocks were soaring.
  Some reluctantly gave the President credit for it.
Then they tell me they wouldn't vote for him because they don't "like" him?

I don't get that but that's me.

I have never added a pole to a post and now is a good time to try.  Lets see how this goes.
As measured by hospital admissions both peak and total admitted how bad  is Covid-19 compared to normal seasonal influenza.

It’s too soon to know.

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 16^th, 2020 at 6:23pm:

I have never added a pole to a post and now is a good time to try.  Lets see how this goes. As measured by hospital admissions both peak and total admitted how bad  is Covid-19 compared to normal seasonal influenza.

That was a hard poll to vote on because Covid-19 seems to be more infectious but the death rate isn't so far as bad as predicted?

  I think the number that really counts is death by percentage of people infected which won't be known for a long time.

  According to CNN, the 2017-2018 flu season killed 80,000 people in the US with 900,000 hospitalized.

CDC of April 15 says: Total cases: 605,390
Total deaths: 24,582

It doesn't say how many required hospitalization?
  I'm sure IF were following social distancing guidelines and being fanatical about hand washing the flu infection and death rate would be much smaller too.

  The Wuhan Virus has a long way to go to reach the same death numbers as the 2017-2018 flue season.

  One thing for sure, whether it does or not, the damage to our country has been incalculable and I hope out leaders when the time is right makes the people who set this all in motion pay a steep price for it.

That is going to weigh heavily on how many people vote come November. The Chinese COMMUNISTS are NOT nice folks, folks  >:( ;)

Solotripper
You’re giving away the truth. I have the numbers of hospitalizations. I wanted everyone to parrot what their favorite/trusted news cast had led them to believe.  Then show them the truth.   That how we learn who to trust.

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 16^th, 2020 at 7:26pm:

Solotripper You’re giving away the truth. I have the numbers of hospitalizations. I wanted everyone to parrot what their favorite/trusted news cast had led them to believe.  Then show them the truth.   That how we learn who to trust.

  You're a sly old dog MP  ;) ;D ;D

My hope is everyone can take the following in the spirit it is offered.

Are 'you people' now actually complaining that your elected government won't let you watch paint dry? Who's fault might that be?

Just askin' for a friend.

;D

Can't keep up anymore. Michigan folks are complaining because they can't watch paint dry! That department is roped off!

Looks like you Cheeseheads will be going Shacky Wacky another month or so at least.  ;) ;D ;D

I think I see a protest movement-building soon.

Marten wrote on Apr 16^th, 2020 at 8:37pm:

Can't keep up anymore. Michigan folks are complaining because they can't watch paint dry! That department is roped off!

We had a technician stationed to keep people from walking on a fresh painted floor.  The big boss came by as the technician was setting in a chair and starting to laugh.  The boss ask what is so funny.  He said I am getting paid to watch paint dry.

I think this link should be shut down before we all go down the rabbit hole.  Nothing good will come of this discussion.

  (You need to Login or Register   (You need to Login or Register by   (You need to Login or Register, on Flickr

Understanding this disease is kind of personal to me.  While you guys were grieving over not getting to go to Copia I was going to my brother’s funeral.  It got him.
The above graph shows less hospitalizations now than 2 years ago.  I think that translates into less deaths.  I think that is not true in most of the world.  I think that is because we are doing it better.

Westwood wrote on Apr 16^th, 2020 at 10:35pm:

I think this link should be shut down before we all go down the rabbit hole.  Nothing good will come of this discussion.

Good to know that you’re maintaining a positive attitude... 8-)

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 17^th, 2020 at 12:01am:

(You need to Login or Register   (You need to Login or Register by   (You need to Login or Register, on Flickr Understanding this disease is kind of personal to me.  While you guys were grieving over not getting to go to Copia I was going to my brother’s funeral.  It got him. The above graph shows less hospitalizations now than 2 years ago.  I think that translates into less deaths.  I think that is not true in most of the world.  I think that is because we are doing it better.

  Thanks for sharing that MP. I think as you do.
We are doing better and have come a long way considering how we were working on very flawed information.

I remember when my country led the free world and that was a good thing we were all proud of. At this point, I doubt we could lead a two float parade.

Population - Deaths from COVID-19
Germany - 83.02 million - 4,193 deaths
New York City 8.4 million - 11,477 deaths
South Korea 51.64 million - 230 deaths

South Korea is reopening and we'll see how that goes. Germany has an actual plan to begin reopening next week. Pence once told us we'd have 4 million test by the end of the week. That was, what, over a month ago? We're still not there.

We need robust testing to reopen and yet our plan is for states and businesses to compete for those precious tests on the open market? How did that work out for us on masks?

This thread is like finding unexploded ordinance.  I think I'll just tiptoe away...  ;D

DB
Cause of death is arbitrary.  They just added 3000 deaths that may have been caused by Civid-19.  Pronouncing the cause of death has become political and there for is not a reliable number.  I believe hospital admissions is a better indication.  I have heard that South Korea was not having near the problems most countries were.   

  We have about 330.5 million people in the US.
So far we've had about 36,000 COVID-19 deaths.

  With a larger population, you're always going to have larger mortality rates for almost every illness.

  I understand the frustration with getting enough fast tests for 330 MILLION people, but people need to understand what it takes to get that done.

  Before I retired I worked for a company that was the #1 vehicle sunroof Mfg in the world. They had facilities all around the world. We supplied sunroof for ALL the American mfg and MOST of the foreign ones too.

  I worked in the Auburn Hills MI plant. It was built to produce 200,000 units a year. When I retired in 2015 we were running 1,000.000 units! That staggering number made us #1 in the world for sunroofs.

  They did that by running 3-8 hr shifts 24/7. Even then we could barely meet the demand.

  One of our biggest problems was running out of parts to keep that pace. Unless you make EVERYTHING in house, your vendors have to be able to run 24/7 to keep up with you. We had multiple vendors and we still had a warehouse full of sunroof we couldn't ship because they lacked parts.

  It's the same for most of those PP items. You might be able to make masks/sew enough if you run 24/7 but the suppliers of the raw materials HAVE to be able to keep up.

Those tests are the same way. You just don't build the supply chains necessary for building 330 Million tests in weeks, maybe even not in a few months.

I personally think they shouldn't have shut down the economy. They should have put the resources into protecting the most vulnerable and self-quarantining them.
  Then using social distancing guidelines, masks/gloves and handwashing allowed people in the LEAST at-risk categories to continue to work IF they felt comfortable doing so. If not they would go on unemployment.

  We could have run the economy on "idle" which would better than a HARD stop.
  Life is about choices and what risks your WILLING to accept. If I was still working, I would be going to work IF they let me. I would do all I could to protect myself as I do on a solo canoe trip, but I would work.

  My PERSONAL feelings are that at my age 71, I've live most of my life. I have no desire to die anytime soon but I rather take a little more risk rather than see younger people with families and the responsibilities that burden puts on them, lose EVERYTHING they worked so hard to have because of a virus that for MOST of them isn't going to be fatal.

That's my personal view. I'm sure others will have far different views but that's their right too.

  This is an interesting article. I think when this pandemic is history there are going to be a lot of assumptions that some very smart people made proven to have been wrong or way overblown.

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  Oh, one more thing. CHINA needs to pay for this BIG time, one way or the other. >:( >:(

TomT wrote on Apr 17^th, 2020 at 6:43pm:

This thread is like finding unexploded ordinance.  I think I'll just tiptoe away...  ;D

I've never understood the fear of stated opinions and quite frankly, I appreciate the warning since I guess I'm ultimately responsible for everyone's feelings around here. :)

I've been a news/politics/opinion junky since I sat in front of a TV hugging my stuffed Yogi Bear while watching Walter Cronkite listing casualties and waiting for my parents to get home. Bias? Spin? Bring it on baby. Actual facts are not all that hard to come by now if you look but what I appreciate most is timing -- as in who said what when and why.

To be honest, and as stupid as it may sound, Twitter is a great source for tidbits of useful information for me. My list of browser bookmarks goes from my President to historians, writers, gov ethics lawyers, constitutional scholars to reporters... lefty-looses and righty-tightys. Whatever. It's all good. I like to know where people are coming from and I get stuff I'd have never thought of on my own. What people accept and/or dismiss as important or not simply fascinates me. Discounting a whole national news and or opinion source is foolishness to me. I look to the names I have experience with no matter their bent. Some are very knowledgeable, some insightful, some reactionary or purely partisan trying to stay relevant and some are just plain nuts. That's what makes life interesting.

A forum was created here years ago for these types of (contentious?) discussions and it's still available. You needed/need to opt in (or out) to even see it and even then people still complained. Point is, it's still there if anyone is bored and wants to make use of it.

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 17^th, 2020 at 6:57pm:

I have heard that South Korea was not having near the problems most countries were.

FWIW, I'm fairly certain the US and SK had their first cases a day or two apart at most and CV is not the flu.

db wrote on Apr 17^th, 2020 at 8:06pm:

TomT wrote on Apr 17th, 2020 at 6:43pm: This thread is like finding unexploded ordinance.  I think I'll just tiptoe away...  ;D I've never understood the fear of stated opinions and quite frankly, I appreciate the warning since I guess I'm ultimately responsible for everyone's feelings around here. :) I've been a news/politics/opinion junky since I sat in front of a TV hugging my stuffed Yogi Bear while watching Walter Cronkite listing casualties and waiting for my parents to get home. Bias? Spin? Bring it on baby. Actual facts are not all that hard to come by now if you look but what I appreciate most is timing -- as in who said what when and why. To be honest, and as stupid as it may sound, Twitter is a great source for tidbits of useful information for me. My list of browser bookmarks goes from my President to historians, writers, gov ethics lawyers, constitutional scholars to reporters... lefty-looses and righty-tightys. Whatever. It's all good. I like to know where people are coming from and I get stuff I'd have never thought of on my own. What people accept and/or dismiss as important or not simply fascinates me. Discounting a whole national news and or opinion source is foolishness to me. I look to the names I have experience with no matter their bent. Some are very knowledgeable, some insightful, some reactionary or purely partisan trying to stay relevant and some are just plain nuts. That's what makes life interesting. A forum was created here years ago for these types of (contentious?) discussions and it's still available. You needed/need to opt in (or out) to even see it and even then people still complained. Point is, it's still there if anyone is bored and wants to make use of it.

  Well said db [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

  As long as NO-ONE makes personal attacks, I like a lively discussion. If you can't control your emotions then you shouldn't participate.

 

" With a larger population, you're always going to have larger mortality rates for almost every illness."

Mortality rate is expressed as deaths per thousand, or hundred thousand etc. It is a relative measure and should not be affected by population size.

Solus wrote on Apr 17^th, 2020 at 9:25pm:

" With a larger population, you're always going to have larger mortality rates for almost every illness." Mortality rate is expressed as deaths per thousand, or hundred thousand etc. It is a relative measure and should not be affected by population size.

So, I'm puzzled.  If this is true, why is the global recovery rate for coronavirus at an 80% level, while in the US it is only barely above 60%?

dd

Solus wrote on Apr 17^th, 2020 at 9:25pm:

" With a larger population, you're always going to have larger mortality rates for almost every illness." Mortality rate is expressed as deaths per thousand, or hundred thousand etc. It is a relative measure and should not be affected by population size.

  I should have said it better. I meant to say TOTAL deaths by the percentage of the population.
 

  This shows what I was trying to say.

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   Were way down the list. Consider how much bigger we are than most all those countries.

Solotrippers linked article   (You need to Login or Register; explains better than I could why comparisons of death from one recording system to another down not work.  One thing I think we can agree on is the last sentence of the article.
Comparing confirmed cases is an even less reliable indicator because if you have not testing you have no confirmed cases.   

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 18^th, 2020 at 11:20am:

Comparing confirmed cases is an even less reliable indicator because if you have not testing you have no confirmed cases.

Massive testing and contact tracing is the way South Korea solved this problem.  Some think we have that capability too but the administration has such shallow thinking to do it because that would just confirm higher numbers.  And well, the higher the number the worse he looks.  Gotta keep those numbers down folks, we got an election soon!  Now get working! 

The administration is working on a bandaid solution.  I get that we need supplies.  But letting people "loose" without a "Prevention Plan" is pure folly.  Look at it like this - when you have an ant problem in the house you sometimes will put out a poison with the hope a few ants bring it back to their house.

In America unlike places like Japan, Germany, South Korea etc. some of our people are careless.  Or "care - less".  I'd call them stupid but let's not get derogatory.  So, we get set loose, all go back to work with the majority being responsible with wearing masks, social distancing, etc.  But here's the thing, there's the careless (ants) who might show no symptoms that go out and bring back the poison to their families. 

Folks, that's all it takes for all of our large cities to look like New York.  I hope I'm wrong but without massive testing and contact tracing this will be our reality come August, September. 

  South Korea has about 52 million people.
The US has 327 million people.
There is NO-WAY we could do what they are doing.

They also don't have a Constitution or Bill of Rights like ours. I seriously doubt the government here could do what S. Korea has done and its citizens accepted without major LEGAL and CIVIL challenges by the people.

  Those growing back to work protests illustrate that.
 
If you watched the WH briefing you saw both Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx and the CDC head give DETAILED explanations of why they DON'T need to test everyone and why the can't have a test for every single person.

  Suicide hotlines are lighting up and domestic abuse is on the rise. Getting back to work at even a slow crawl is the only cure for that.

  The election will ride on how the majority of people think the administration handled this crisis and getting the economy moving again overall.

  I hear a lot of his political critics say how they could do the job better but when I check their records when they WERE in power, they fall flat on their faces.

  They say Covid-19 virus is in your urine/poop?

  I think before next year they'll have a simple PEE test similar to a pregnancy test.

  A vaccine is a real answer but even then there could be issues. They could never develop a universal flu vaccine because the flu keeps mutating.

I've read that Covid-19 has mutated a few times too. A Chinese strain and apparently a European one?

  It could turn-out that like the flu they'll have to have a different vaccine every season to match the current mutation?

  Then you have to have everyone buying into getting that annual shot. Sometimes that regular flu shot has side effects that are worse than the flu?

  I've NEVER had the flu as an adult and never get a flu shot. I'm either very lucky or have a good immune system or maybe having it as a kid gave me some immunity?

  This is our first fight with Covid-19. Remember how things were when SARS and EBOLA hit the scene.
We learned a lot from our first bout with them and now BOTH are very treatable and NOT a death sentence. It will be the same with Covid-19.

  The REAL crime will be after all this the states DON'T stockpile like they should have BEFORE they needed it.

And IF the Federal government under a different administration goes back to adding layers of bureaucracy that hinder the private sector coming up with innovative treatments/cures in record times because the DC bureaucracy isn't tying their hands with endless layers of red tape.

  The 2020 election is going to be a referendum on that too.

 

Flu can be deadly, and it is no fun if you contract it.

I had the "Hong Kong Flu" in 1968.  It is the sickest I have ever been in my adult life with a disease:  severe body aches, weakness, deep cough, fever over 103 for four days, chills and shivering.  I have a healthy respect for flu and would never miss getting a yearly flu shot.

The University of Michigan Health Complex, and particularly the Transplant Center, is adamant that not only must Spartan1 get a flu shot, but also that he isn't to be around people who don't.  Hard to enforce that last part.

One of my fears is that, if we do actually get a vaccine, many people will decide that they aren't going to get it.  Like the situation with measles now, children dying because someone in charge of them decided that vaccines are dangerous, unnecessary, too much bother, etc.

Then we have a yearly Covid19 outbreak to expect, as well as a yearly flu outbreak.  Vaccines are only effective if people will get them.

I believe in immunizations.  I well remember the polio epidemic in the 1950's, and how relieved we all were when Dr. Salk came up with his vaccination.  It is very easy to protect against polio now, and I hope someday it will be easy to protect against Covid19.

Perhaps more interested because we are both high-risk.  Especially my husband who is immune-suppressed.

Quote:

I hope someday it will be easy to protect against Covid19. Perhaps more interested because we are both high-risk.  Especially my husband who is immune-suppressed.

  One of the "good" things coming out of this crisis is that our nation's ability to innovate is going at full speed. New technologies are going to spawn new business's as we go into the new "normal".

I saw an ex-NASA scientist on Fox this morning talking about a "new" style of UV light that can kill viruses but NOT cause skin cancer in humans.
If it works out maybe it will kill FLU virus too?

  They use UV light robots to sanitize hospitals but
no humans can be in there during the process.

Now some real smart people have found a specific wavelength of UV light that won't hurt humans.
  The guy on Fox was showing how they could make lights to mount in your car/house entry/workplaces/business entrances that would sanitize people every day while you live your life.

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ST, right now we can model South Korea and we need a bold president to make it happen. Think back to when Kennedy said we’d put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. How many people scoffed back then?  I say put labs like Abbott and others on full time test production. We a large vision and proper execution of the plan we can do this. The alternative is to suppress the body count and focus on bandaids. Good luck.

Once concern I've had since the beginning of COVID19 showing up in the US is that some number of our tests should be dedicated to randomized testing of the population. Without any idea of what the level of "background radiation" exists  any data from testing of symptomatic or "exposed" individuals is crippled by our complete ignorance of the "underground" prevalence of the disease in the general population. Our understanding and conclusions drawn from our limited data set are bound to lead to faulty conclusions of how best to deal with the disease. I'm still surprised that I have not heard or read of a single epidemiologist proposing or referring to randomized survey of COVID 19 infection.

TomT wrote on Apr 18^th, 2020 at 3:54pm:

ST, right now we can model South Korea and we need a bold president to make it happen. Think back to when Kennedy said we’d put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. How many people scoffed back then?  I say put labs like Abbott and others on full time test production. We a large vision and proper execution of the plan we can do this. The alternative is to suppress the body count and focus on bandaids. Good luck.

  They explained in that last briefing why that wasn't feasible or even needed at this point?

Dr Fauci/Dr Brix are world-renowned experts and they signed off on the restart plan so I have to think they know more than we all do about the subject.

  The other Dr with the beard whose name I can't recall said the CDC had models in place to track ALL patients admitted to the hospital with respiratory problems. They TEST those patients to see if its the seasonal flu OR Covid-19. If its Covid they can do that contact tracing people talk about.

  I think they are more on top of this issue than MANY in the mainstream TELL you for their OWN political agenda reasons.

  Watch the briefing on YouTube, skip to when the 4 Drs are explaining the tests and why they feel confidant we can go to Level One under the guidelines.

Like MP said, rather than being TOLD what they said or meant, watch/hear them say it and judge from there.

 

Here's the transcript.
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Read what Dr. Birx actually said about antibody tests. (50:16) vs Donald Trump: (19:19) And please enlighten me if... She doesn't give me a warm fuzzy for phase one.

The insidious thing about this disease is that people can be asymptomatic and still transmit it. I agree it's essentially too late for current infection tests - I hope. We need antibody tests that work. States need to provide the human resources if required but the feds need to get the materials needed and labs that can process the tests. The Defense Production Act comes to mind. And we need full disclosure. The truth. Not this tippy toe feel good BS we seem to be getting from the daily briefings.

For all anyone knows, a large portion of the country could have already had it so transmission rates may be less than feared by now. No one knows diddly at this point.

What bothers me is the same guy who Tweets "LIBERATE MINNESOTA!" on April 17th, proudly tells us "We’re now the the king of ventilators. We have hundreds of thousands under construction." (GM will have produced 30,000 ventilators by the end of August.) Actually, I guess maybe those two things taken together do make sense if you lack empathy and just want to market a brand.

Solus wrote on Apr 18^th, 2020 at 4:36pm:

I'm still surprised that I have not heard or read of a single epidemiologist proposing or referring to randomized survey of COVID 19 infection.

A company in Iceland did that with volunteers. No symptoms required. As I recall, roughly 50% were asymptomatic. But, that's Iceland and probably a month ago so who knows?

Quote:

Actually, I guess maybe those two things taken together do make sense if you lack empathy and just want to market a brand.

  Don't forget that the President HAD to use the threat of the Defense Production Act to GET GM to do what they promised to do. Same with 3M.

Far better for people and companies to step-up on their own than the government telling them what they should be doing. Bureaucrats DON'T know what a companies capabilities are any more than they know what the AVERAGE citizen is capable of doing.

  I wouldn't want to be in ANY President's shoes at a time like this. If they don't keep the country locked down until there are NO Covid-19 deaths as SOME would argue, he lacks empathy.

If he doesn't start the country working and businesses go out to never return, he lacks empathy for the working people.

  No matter what he does it will be wrong in the eyes of some people. The election will prove which point of view the majority of people have.

"Don't forget that the President HAD to use the threat of the Defense Production Act to GET GM to do what they promised to do. Same with 3M."

Actually Trump had to use the threat to get 3M to not do what it had promised to do; which was to fill orders it had contracts for with Canada and Latin America.

I don't believe that confiscating necessary medical supplies bound for our allies will pay dividends in any way shape or form.

Contract tracing for those admitted to hospitals is of limited utility in regards to a disease that most might never know they've had (thus my early post about randomized survey of the general population so there is some idea of baselines). If fewer than 10% of COVID positive folks are hospitalized, contract tracing based on hospitalization is futile.

I think you just dodged my question ST. :) Fair enough. Here's another. What was the intent behind this name dropping BS?

Donald Trump: (34:03)
Fidelity investments, Abigail Johnson, MasterCard, Visa, Chubb, Sequoia, Stephens; Warren Stephens, great. Charles Schwab, Chuck Schwab will be here by phone. Food and Beverage National Restaurant Association, McDonald’s, Darden Restaurants, Coca-Cola, Pepsi Cola, Chick Fil A, Subway, Bloomin’ Brands, Yum brands, Papa John’s, Wendy’s, waffle house. Starbucks, Wolfgang Pub, Thomas Keller, John George, my friend John George and Danielle, you know them. From the transportation world, FedEx, Fred Smith, the legend. United Airlines, Oscar Beunos, UPS, David Abney, JB Hunt, YRC Worldwide, Crowley, Maritime, Credible, big powerful shippers in transportation companies. In telecommunications we have the legendary John Malone of Liberty Media, Verizon, T-Mobile, Charter Communications, and Brian Roberts of Comcast. Thank you all very much. Healthcare, New York Presbyterian, Jerry Spire, friend of mine, HCA Healthcare. Sam Hazen. Thank you, Sam. Just met with Sam. Ascension Health, Common Spirit Health, Community Health Systems, Trinity Health, Cardinal Health, McKesson, 3M. Thank you Mike Roman for helping us with the face masks. It worked out well for everybody. Proctor and Gamble, Abbott Laboratories, Johnson and Johnson, Merck, Pfizer, Eli Lilly, Thermo Fisher Scientific.

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How was that waste of time helpful to anyone?

News of a general population survey. From ABC news:
"The first large-scale community test of 3,300 people in Santa Clara County found that 2.5 to 4.2% of those tested were positive for antibodies -- a number suggesting a far higher past infection rate than the official count.

Based on the initial data, researchers estimate that the range of people who may have had the virus to be between 48,000 and 81,000 in the county of 2 million -- as opposed to the approximately 1,000 in the county's official tally at the time the samples were taken.

“Our findings suggest that there is somewhere between 50- and 80-fold more infections in our county than what’s known by the number of cases than are reported by our department of public health,"

What is wrong with giving CREDIT where credit is due? Business people both large and small have been recognized in those briefings. Same with all the First responders he's always mentioning. You call it BS, I call it good PR.  ;) ;D ;D

  You can bet another President of a different party would be doing the same thing but not with the same people that's for sure.

  He hosted a little salute to the nation's truckers at the WH too, I think most of them appreciated the fact he was recognizing their importance too.

Solus wrote on Apr 18^th, 2020 at 8:00pm:

News of a general population survey. From ABC news: "The first large-scale community test of 3,300 people in Santa Clara County found that 2.5 to 4.2% of those tested were positive for antibodies -- a number suggesting a far higher past infection rate than the official count. Based on the initial data, researchers estimate that the range of people who may have had the virus to be between 48,000 and 81,000 in the county of 2 million -- as opposed to the approximately 1,000 in the county's official tally at the time the samples were taken. “Our findings suggest that there is somewhere between 50- and 80-fold more infections in our county than what’s known by the number of cases than are reported by our department of public health,"

  I saw that stat too Solus and I listened to a noted medical doctor consultant say that wasn't really a bad thing?

  The more ACTUAL cases of infection, WITHOUT hospitalization or death, IF this small study holds true will DROP the percentage of deaths by million which is a good thing.

It would show the virus to be MORE Infectious than thought but not as lethal as thought either, that's a good thing.

He also said IF that is true it also bolsters the HERD IMMUNITY idea.

  Like I said before when this is all played out, there will be some assumptions that will be proven patently false and others we haven't yet come to know/understand to be true.

  Fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Solus wrote on Apr 18^th, 2020 at 4:36pm:

Once concern I've had since the beginning of COVID19 showing up in the US is that some number of our tests should be dedicated to randomized testing of the population. Without any idea of what the level of "background radiation" exists  any data from testing of symptomatic or "exposed" individuals is crippled by our complete ignorance of the "underground" prevalence of the disease in the general population. Our understanding and conclusions drawn from our limited data set are bound to lead to faulty conclusions of how best to deal with the disease. I'm still surprised that I have not heard or read of a single epidemiologist proposing or referring to randomized survey of COVID 19 infection.

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This helps put things in perspective.  Well except for China that is.  :-? >:( >:(

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---

And Iran

Thanks for the link MP.

These types of general population studies are necessary to come up with a coherent response. In the time being we're flying blind. In Minnesota we've recorded (from the most recent data) 121 deaths- no doubt tragic. On the other hand the median age of death is 84- which is a seriously mind-bogglingly aged data set. Hard to come up with any group (including "residents of assisted living") with a median age that old. Median age requiring hospitalization is a more sobering 64 (ICU hospitalizations a mere 65). Interestingly there was one individual aged 104 who has tested positive and is still ticking.

Solus wrote on Apr 19^th, 2020 at 3:57pm:

Thanks for the link MP. These types of general population studies are necessary to come up with a coherent response. In the time being we're flying blind. In Minnesota we've recorded (from the most recent data) 121 deaths- no doubt tragic. On the other hand the median age of death is 84- which is a seriously mind-bogglingly aged data set. Hard to come up with any group (including "residents of assisted living") with a median age that old. Median age requiring hospitalization is a more sobering 64 (ICU hospitalizations a mere 65). Interestingly there was one individual aged 104 who has tested positive and is still ticking.

  This new data "appears" to show that COVID-19 while much more infectious MIGHT not kill more people than the seasonal flu which has killed 80,000 people so far, mostly the same people COVID-19 has killed.

  If your 84 and have serious health issues already, I think it's a little misleading to say Covid-19 was the cause of death. It would be more honest to say it contributed to it.

   I also wonder about the idea that "healthy" young people have been killed by it? Is that a fact they were healthy or is it because they were young and apparently healthy?

  You see that in athletes where they do autopsies after they drop dead. Turns out they all had serious health issues that were undetected. I wonder if they did autopsies on these young COVID-19 victims to see if they had health problems they were not aware of?

Maybe it is my advanced age talking (of course it is), but I don't see the distinction here.  My husband, age 74+,  has dealt with type1 diabetes since 1974 and he is immune-suppressed because of medications taken so that his body doesn't reject his transplanted kidney.  He also has cardiopumonary issues and bladder issues.  He has survived hospitalizations in the past decade or so because of pneumonia once and sepsis another time.

But he is controlling all of these conditions with lifestyle and medications, and he is outwardly healthy.  He digs in the ground, splits wood, does many activities that, for a man of his age, might qualify as "active."

If he contracts Covid19 and he dies, IMHO his death will be from Covid19, not from the other underlying conditions that he has been living with for a very long time.

By the same token, I am also 74+ (we will both turn 75 this summer) and I recently had open heart surgery to correct several structural issues with my heart.  I am still rehabbing from that surgery and getting stronger.  If I contract Covid19 and die, is my cause of death "heart condition"?  I don't think so.  I think if I contract Covid19 and die, my cause of death is "Covid19."

Many of us, as we age, have underlying health issues.  But if we are functioning in spite of them, and then if we contract this disease, I cannot see the distinction of sorting us out because of our age or our chronic medical conditions.

Just my 2 cents.

Spartin2
I see your point exactly but not everyone does.  The problem comes in where one country assigns the cause one way and another country assigns the cause the other then you try to compare the two. For instance look at the graph below by Solotripper.  Do you believe the number form China???  If that is true they must have had a vaccine before they released the virus.

Spartan2 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2020 at 5:40pm:

Maybe it is my advanced age talking (of course it is), but I don't see the distinction here.  My husband, age 74+,  has dealt with type1 diabetes since 1974 and he is immune-suppressed because of medications taken so that his body doesn't reject his transplanted kidney.  He also has cardiopumonary issues and bladder issues.  He has survived hospitalizations in the past decade or so because of pneumonia once and sepsis another time. But he is controlling all of these conditions with lifestyle and medications, and he is outwardly healthy.  He digs in the ground, splits wood, does many activities that, for a man of his age, might qualify as "active." If he contracts Covid19 and he dies, IMHO his death will be from Covid19, not from the other underlying conditions that he has been living with for a very long time. By the same token, I am also 74+ (we will both turn 75 this summer) and I recently had open heart surgery to correct several structural issues with my heart.  I am still rehabbing from that surgery and getting stronger.  If I contract Covid19 and die, is my cause of death "heart condition"?  I don't think so.  I think if I contract Covid19 and die, my cause of death is "Covid19." Many of us, as we age, have underlying health issues.  But if we are functioning in spite of them, and then if we contract this disease, I cannot see the distinction of sorting us out because of our age or our chronic medical conditions. Just my 2 cents.

  To understand COVID-19 they need to learn all they can about how it spreads, how lethal it is and so on.

  A bad case of the seasonal flu might be fatal to either of you because of your underlying conditions.
That needs to be taken into the science of this.
When you have people that are in that age group survive and recover the Drs need to know why they did and others didn't. Is it just underlying health issues OR something else? I've seen reports that say your blood type might play a role?

  On the personal level dying from anything no matter what your health issues are a terrible thing.

My ballot was in the mail...

I hope everyone is watching the WH COVID-19 briefing today?

  You can skip the President speaking if you don't care for him, but listen to the General that runs the Army Corp of Engineer's and the people talking about the testing issues.

Those tests and the equipment needed to do them are not just things you buy off the shelf.

A swab ISN'T just a swap when its used to collect a biological sample.  These people are working 24/7 to ramp up a testing system in weeks that under NORMAL circumstances would take years. That is important to understand.

Same with showing 5,000 sites across the Nation that can do the testing. It took 2 yrs to plan for D-Day in WW2 and they still had major problems.

  This COVID-19 D-Day is being planned and organized/ equipped in a matter of weeks. To expect no foul-ups in an effort this massive in such a short time is unrealistic.

I wish someone could explain why Sweden, near US in stats, has not closed down. They are social distancing. (And don't say healthier - Spain and Italy are reported to be the healthiest countries  and it hasn't seemed to help them.)

I found this stat site interesting. Besides basics it includes testing per capita among other things. And you can sort by any column.

BillConner wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 11:30am:

I wish someone could explain why Sweden, near US in stats, has not closed down. They are social distancing. (And don't say healthier - Spain and Italy are reported to be the healthiest countries  and it hasn't seemed to help them.) I found this stat site interesting. Besides basics it includes testing per capita among other things. And you can sort by any column.

Your post got me looking. This explains Sweden's approach/reasoning pretty well.

  I guess time will tell which method is the best one?
Of course, Sweden is much smaller and what works for one population/culture might not work for everyone?

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Exactly.  Isolate the more susceptible, but allow those who seem overwhelmingly likely to survive the virus, perhaps not even realize they had it and recovered, continue to work, educate, recreate, etc.

Reminds me of the Rahm Emanuel line about not letting a crisis go to waste. 

We used to quarantine the sick, not the healthy. I think Chinas misinformation had a lot to do with it.

I think i left out this link. Sorry.
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Quote:

Reminds me of the Rahm Emanuel line about not letting a crisis go to waste.

  You can't look at the WH response and the media's response without admitting that POLITICS is lurking in the background.

  If the WH went Sweden's way the would be attacked. If they go the way they did, they are attacked.
  If we lost a couple million people they would be attacked.

  If we lose far less than the models show and people suffer from the economic fallout, the WH will be attacked.

  Between WHOSE President and this being an ELECTION year, politics is a major factor like it or not.

I am more concerned by those who will use this to expand national single payer health care, guaranteed minimum income, and so on.

BillConner wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 1:21pm:

I am more concerned by those who will use this to expand national single payer health care, guaranteed minimum income, and so on.

I couldn't agree more. That's why the 2020 election is going to be a game-changer for this country.

We have 2 very different roads to travel, I hope everyone thinks about the consequences and most of all everyone VOTE.  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

I wish there was a good choice - not the lesser of two poor choices - like last time.

BillConner wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 2:08pm:

I wish there was a good choice - not the lesser of two poor choices - like last time.

  I'll hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils.
I've done it before in 50 yrs of voting. Says a lot about the primary process and how we wind-up with some candidates.

I think the media plays a HUGE role in why some really good people DON'T want to run for office.

  I can't think of ONE President since I first voted that would withstand the MEDIA scrutiny people get now. Add in social media and I can see why many people wouldn't want to put themselves OR their families thru it.

  JFK was revered by many but today he wouldn't even make it into the debate stage because of his womanizing.

  I've NEVER met a human no matter how good they were that didn't have some serious flaws.

Somehow the GOTCHA media thinks whoever wants to be President should be without flaws. That just isn't realistic.

BillConner wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 2:08pm:

I wish there was a good choice - not the lesser of two poor choices - like last time.

Do you think any good person will run after what the press has done to Trump?

solotripper wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 2:18pm:

BillConner wrote on Apr 21st, 2020 at 2:08pm: I wish there was a good choice - not the lesser of two poor choices - like last time.   I'll hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. I've done it before in 50 yrs of voting. Says a lot about the primary process and how we wind-up with some candidates. I think the media plays a HUGE role in why some really good people DON'T want to run for office.   I can't think of ONE President since I first voted that would withstand the MEDIA scrutiny people get now. Add in social media and I can see why many people wouldn't want to put themselves OR their families thru it.   JFK was revered by many but today he wouldn't even make it into the debate stage because of his womanizing.   I've NEVER met a human no matter how good they were that didn't have some serious flaws. Somehow the GOTCHA media thinks whoever wants to be President should be without flaws. That just isn't realistic.

I disagree that you can’t be a womanizer and not be harassed as a president. We recently had a president that had been reported by something like 7 woman of rape (at the time of the incident not humpteen years later) and the only thing the press did to him was enhance his package. 

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 2:49pm:

solotripper wrote on Apr 21st, 2020 at 2:18pm: BillConner wrote on Apr 21st, 2020 at 2:08pm: I wish there was a good choice - not the lesser of two poor choices - like last time.   I'll hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils. I've done it before in 50 yrs of voting. Says a lot about the primary process and how we wind-up with some candidates. I think the media plays a HUGE role in why some really good people DON'T want to run for office.   I can't think of ONE President since I first voted that would withstand the MEDIA scrutiny people get now. Add in social media and I can see why many people wouldn't want to put themselves OR their families thru it.   JFK was revered by many but today he wouldn't even make it into the debate stage because of his womanizing.   I've NEVER met a human no matter how good they were that didn't have some serious flaws. Somehow the GOTCHA media thinks whoever wants to be President should be without flaws. That just isn't realistic. I disagree that you can’t be a womanizer and not be harassed as a president. We recently had a president that had been reported by something like 7 woman of rape (at the time of the incident not humpteen years later) and the only thing the press did to him was enhance his package.

  Reported yes, proven NO. JFK was bringing them into the WH and we all know now about Marilyn Monroe and the Kennedy bros.

  The press is SELECTIVE about who/what they are outraged about.

  I wish Joe Friday was the nation's JOURNALISM editor in chief!  Just the FACT'S ma'am is what I want to hear/read. I'll MAKE my own conclusions from there.  ;)

Or Matt Dillon or Lucas McCain....

BillConner wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 3:55pm:

Or Matt Dillon or Lucas McCain....

   ;D ;D ;D ;D Yup, those old school role models WOULDN'T pass the PC sniff test today. That's sad.

solotripper wrote on Apr 20^th, 2020 at 10:37pm:

I hope everyone is watching the WH COVID-19 briefing today?

I watch them every day. ;) My favorite part yesterday was Pence chasing Brett Giroir, (the coronavirus testing czar) off the podium with a prolonged stare after some prompting from POTUS.
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Gov, Hogan made the mistake of mentioning  shortages of testing supplies on TV recently. Trump wasn't happy and as you know went after him early and often in his highly rated reality show informative presser yesterday.

Here was Hogan's response to the situation around supplies vs excess capacity so often touted.
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Silly me, I thought POTUS wanted states to be responsible for their own testing supplies.

db wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 5:29pm:

solotripper wrote on Apr 20th, 2020 at 10:37pm: I hope everyone is watching the WH COVID-19 briefing today? I watch them every day. ;) My favorite part yesterday was Pence chasing Brett Giroir, (the coronavirus testing czar) off the podium with a prolonged stare after some prompting from POTUS.   (You need to Login or Register Gov, Hogan made the mistake of mentioning  shortages of testing supplies on TV recently. Trump wasn't happy and as you know went after him early and often in his highly rated reality show informative presser yesterday. Here was Hogan's response to the situation around supplies vs excess capacity so often touted.   (You need to Login or Register Silly me, I thought POTUS wanted states to be responsible for their own testing supplies.

   I didn't get that impression at all :-?
Just goes to show how people can view/interpret the same things in a much different way.

solotripper wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 5:48pm:

I didn't get that impression at all :-? Just goes to show how people can view/interpret the same things in a much different way.

I know you didn't. So now that I pointed it out, did it make a difference in your perspective? Would this help?
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Remember, this is just a hobby for me. And I've never even owned a tan suit!  ;D

db wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 6:25pm:

solotripper wrote on Apr 21st, 2020 at 5:48pm: I didn't get that impression at all :-? Just goes to show how people can view/interpret the same things in a much different way. I know you didn't. So now that I pointed it out, did it make a difference in your perspective? Would this help?   (You need to Login or Register Remember, this is just a hobby for me. And I've never even owned a tan suit!  ;D

  Nope, I don't see where it's shown proof positive he couldn't have gotten the tests the WH said states would need to OPEN in Phase One?


Quote:

Admiral Brett Giroir, the administration's testing coordinator, also questioned Hogan's deal with South Korea for tests during Monday's White House briefing. "I don't know what the governor of Maryland is doing in South Korea, but there is excess capacity every day," CNN reported. "If he wanted to send 30 or 40,000 tests to LabCorp and Quest, that could be done. That could be done tomorrow."

So who's right/wrong here? I think the jury is out on that one.  :-/

As I understand it, there's recently been a reverse in the supplies required to do tests and the lab capacity to do them. (The Abbott Labs individual strep test conversion excluded.)

Remember when POTUS didn't want a cruise ship to doc because it would inflate 'His' numbers and make 'Him' look bad at the time? We are way past that now but I can't help but feel that that idea is still in play somehow.

The stay at home, you don't need a mask thing was really only meant to give hospitals a chance to give patients a chance as in beds, vents and especially PPE. The day my dentist emailed to say they were shutting down to save PPE for others was the day I lost a filling from a fffffront tooth. Go fffffigure.

What's the criteria for ffffase one again?  :-[

[quote author=db link=1586883771/99#99 date=1587497532]As I understand it, there's recently been a reverse in the supplies required to do tests and the lab capacity to do them. (The Abbott Labs individual strep test conversion excluded.)

Remember when POTUS didn't want a cruise ship to doc because it would inflate 'His' numbers and make 'Him' look bad at the time? We are way past that now but I can't help but feel that that idea is still in play somehow.

The stay at home, you don't need a mask thing was really only meant to give hospitals a chance to give patients a chance as in beds, vents and especially PPE. The day my dentist emailed to say they were shutting down to save PPE for others was the day I lost a filling from a fffffront tooth. Go fffffigure.

What's the criteria for ffffase one again?  :-[/quote]

   I don't doubt politics is being played both sides of the aisle on this. They mentioned a new test coming in a couple of weeks that would be a game-changer?

  I read where they say COVID-19 is present in your feces/urine? Wouldn't it be great if they had a DIY home test using either of them to tell you your current status or maybe more?

 

This made my day ;D
Dog's you got to love them. 8-)

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One of the criteria that should matter is having enough N95 masks to restock the stores that used to have them. That would give John Q Public and you and me a chance to protect themselves against possible infections. I have a handful of leftovers from my last drywall project. I will need many more to be protected against viruses. I know that cloth masks are being promoted, but they offer no virus protection. I worked in Mayo Clinic hospitals for many years and had all the training and experience with PPE.

I think that the initial advice that N95 was ineffective was a calculated lie to buy time to get them to the hospitals. As someone who exceeds 65, and has most of the risk factors, I’m willing to wear a mask in public, but I want it to protect me from infections. Yes, there’s a right way to wear them. It could be shown in a short YouTube video and maybe it is.

Anyway, I hope that more focus can be given to N95 production so that we can hopefully dodge this disease and not burden the healthcare system.

Old Salt wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 9:05pm:

One of the criteria that should matter is having enough N95 masks to restock the stores that used to have them. That would give John Q Public and you and me a chance to protect themselves against possible infections. I have a handful of leftovers from my last drywall project. I will need many more to be protected against viruses. I know that cloth masks are being promoted, but they offer no virus protection. I worked in Mayo Clinic hospitals for many years and had all the training and experience with PPE. I think that the initial advice that N95 was ineffective was a calculated lie to buy time to get them to the hospitals. As someone who exceeds 65, and has most of the risk factors, I’m willing to wear a mask in public, but I want it to protect me from infections. Yes, there’s a right way to wear them. It could be shown in a short YouTube video and maybe it is. Anyway, I hope that more focus can be given to N95 production so that we can hopefully dodge this disease and not burden the healthcare system.

   My brother is in the same boat. I asked what he was going to do? He sent me this link. He has some masks which he plans to rotate and disinfect each use using the 3rd method in this article. He has an old Toaster Oven in his workshop he can dedicate to doing it. It won't last forever but hopefully, the masks will get back into the public domain with the production being ramped up to 10's of millions of units.

Dr Tsai is the designer of the N95 mask so he should know what he's talking about.

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Well it just got another one of my relatives. 

Magicpaddler wrote on Apr 21^st, 2020 at 11:38pm:

Well it just got another one of my relatives.

  Sorry for your loss MP.

It’s wicked awful! I’m sorry.

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PhantomJug wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2020 at 12:52am:

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   How about sniffer dogs for workplaces/public venues like bars/shops and something like this for your car/home entrance? You get in your car, hit the overhead light and get sanitized. Walk in your home or entrance to a bldg, you get sanitized.

Originally saw a story about an Ex NASA engineer who was building prototype lights like I just mentioned. He had one to replace those sunken lights people have in their homes. You could buy one and wire it in yourself if your a little bit handy.

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MP, my condolences to you and your family.

pd

So sorry MP...

I am a bit late to this party, but wanted to comment on something from far earlier; the news.  I consider myself more objective than most and am certainly not easily molded into being left or right.  Most of fox news is REALLY bad (as news).  Something caused me to take a look at a couple of T Carlson pieces recently and although the general tone of the piece seemed reasonable when one looked closely, it was a masterful collection of distortion techniques.  This was not just a biased presentation.  It was a purposeful attempt to distort.  I find either that skillful distortion or just plain bias the norm on Fox (I suspect MSNBC is similar but do not watch it enough to say).

My wife and I typically watch the prime time news each night.  Until recently that was NBC. Any of the big-3 will give a newcast not at all like those on the 24-hour news outlets.  But it was not Walter Cronkite.  I finally convinced my wife to allows us to try Fox's prime time newscast (with Brett Baier).  We found it much better.  Unlike most of the rest of the stuff on Fox, I find it has decently objective reporting. You do see some biases but that is hard to avoid.  Particularly on their panel segment (example, discussing the two-faced response by Dems to Bidens SA accuser, while ignoring the equally two-faced response by the GOP).  One advantage that report has it is an hour long.  So they have time to do more than a sound-bite look at some of the issues of the day.

Quote:

Most of fox news is REALLY bad (as news).

  I disagree about FOX news being BAD for the most part. I've watched them all and for domestic news sources, they are much more fair and balanced than MOST other cable news outlets.

  You referenced Tucker Carlson, who I watch regulary. I like his show overall BUT the key here is he, Hannity, Ingraham/Levin, Judge Jeanne and the rest of them make NO bones about being Partisan RIGHT on their shows. They will tell the listener they are OPINION people.

  Brett Baier is the head NEWS anchor. He presents the KNOWN facts and lets the viewer make up their own minds.  You WON'T see him make speculations/accusations on his news show.

  He's often the guest on the OPINION shows and if asked he'll give HIS opinion which in that context is okay to do IMHO.

  You watch the other news outlets. They swing hard to the Left. I don't mind that they do, what I mind is when the so-called "news" people interview guests who are often giving THEIR opinions which the "news" people take and PRESENT as facts because what they hear is how they PERSONALLY feel about the subject/person.

  Watch a WH briefing live as it happens. Forget how you feel about the President. Just listen to the words and the CONTEXT of what he's saying.

Then go to CNN/MSNBC etc and listen to what they TELL you he said.  :-?

  It is more often than not so FAR from what he actually said, the context it was said in, etc you wouldn't even know you had just heard it yourself.

  I wouldn't mind that IF they were presenting themselves as OPINION people rather than straight news people.

  Back in the Cronkite days, you had only a few people, older trusted types who at the end of a broadcast would give THEIR opinion on something.
   They made sure everyone knew it WAS an opinion piece too.

  Nowadays you have 4-5 "news" people, a few guests and they ALL present opinions as facts and the "news" people rarely challenge what the guests say UNLESS the guest is a Conservative.

You watch FOX regularly and they have Liberal guests on ALL the time. They are often challenged BUT for the most part they get a fair chance to speak.

We ALL have the right to our opinion, sometimes we are ACTUALLY qualified based on the subject to give it. The problem is when you present YOUR opinion as being the INDISPUTABLE facts, case closed, based NOT on facts but your biased personal opinion.

  That's why the Liberal news outlets have to RETRACT so many of their headlines. They hear something that confirms THEIR biases and the rush it onto the breaking news. You rarely see that on FOX, because of the NEWS people who keep to the known and VERIFIABLE facts.

  NOTHING makes me angrier than having ANY news source/ so-called journalist "explain" to me that what I just heard someone say ISN'T really what they said and what I thought they meant ISN'T that either.

Again- by and large television is a terrible source of factual information. The goal is sell not inform. Study after study has shown that people that garner their information from television news are likely to believe things that simply aren't true.

A recent survey found:
"Perhaps most interesting were the results based on where Americans got their news. Those who claimed Fox News was one of their top two sources for political news, believed Trump‘s false claims 33 percent of the time, compared to 21 percent of those who say Fox News is not one of their primary news sources.

The same is true of those who count on MSNBC or CNN as one (or both) as their top two news sources. While they’re more likely to be able to spot Trump falsehoods, 44 percent of MSNBC viewers, and 40 percent of CNN viewers believe false Democratic claims.

The best informed group, according to the results, were those who relied on old-fashioned public radio, like NPR, or traditional print publications, like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, The Economics, or WaPo. Only 16 percent of those citing public radio as one of their two primary political news sources believed the same false statements, the most informed of any group in the poll, followed only by those consuming news from print publications, at 17 percent.

The takeaway? Cable news networks, perhaps, aren’t the best place to get your news, nor are fringe online publications. Those of us who are best informed, according to this poll at least, are reading local and national print publications, and listening to a lot of NPR."

The goal of news consumption should be to inform of what IS- not what we want or think should be true. I see a good deal of Fox news day in and day out when I'm at work- thank god I don't have to say the same of MSNBC and CNN. Watching FOX is like watching news from the Hunger Games movies; even the makeup and characters are the same.

NPR, The New York Times and WaPo are so LEFT leaning anything they say IMHO opinion has INHERENT bias built right in.

  I see FOX people AND Liberal guest commentators REGULARLY going after President Trump. They get FREE rein in doing it too. They even have LIBERAL commentators like Juan Williams, Donna Brazile and Jessica Tarlov among MANY others going Hard after President Trump.

  I see little of NONE of that on the other media outlets. On TV they shout the Conservative guest down. In PRINT media they twist/misquote/or leave out the WHOLE statement to push their own political/social agenda.

  That's my personal view and I'm far from being alone.

At least this "news" reporter apologized for getting the "facts" wrong. You hardly ever see the PRINT media correct themselves after publishing erroneous stories.

IF they do it's on a BACK page that hardly mitigates the DAMAGE they did by printing a story WITHOUT verifying it just to be first to get a story out.

  I'm not saying the President doesn't say wrong things or dumb things. I'm saying the media often doesn't just fact check him, they turn it into an OPINION piece to push a LIBERAL agenda under the guise of just reporting the facts.

Watch the Richard Jewell movie (Atlanta Bomber) read the actual news and you'll see how the media is QUICK to destroy but very slow to admit they were wrong and make someone whole again IF even possible.

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solotripper wrote on May 3^rd, 2020 at 3:45pm:

I disagree about FOX news being BAD for the most part.

I guess I disagree on what constitutes BAD news.  On the basics we seemed to agreee that it has all these commentator shows and it has Brett.  I said Brett's show was good, in fact that was the point of my post.

As I said, the problem with the commentators is they are not just giving their opinion.  They are distorting facts to slant facts to fit a desired conclusion.  I will give a specific example with carlson. This is not a one-off.  (I watched O-reilly regularly and he was a master of it.)

It was a piece on why we need voter id. Please note, that is an idea I agree with.  Here are some things from that carlson piece.   "it is likely that no policitian has ever amassed a record more embarassing or less empressive than the current governor of that state, Klan Robes Black face."  So he starts with a statement like it is fact where at best it is a hyperbolic opinion.  He concludes with an ad-hominem attack. That to me is not GOOD journalistic opinion. And he is just getting started. In talking about voting by mail, he states "and of course it  ..  ends our democracy".  There are valid argument against voter-id, that is more hyperbole and to me that is BAD news and goes beyond bias. He goes on to play a series of clips by Dems complaing about voter supression imcluding one discussing gerrymandering.  Carlson response to those clips, "everything you have just heard is a complete and provable lie".  Well one might have the opinion that some of those things are lies but certainly not all of them are provably false.  Gerrymandering is provably a fact (the courts just found it true in NC as one example in my home state) and Carlson knows that. Again that is a know technique, push guolt by association. He goes on, "they [government IDs] are mandatory". Again false. They are for some things but so is a library card mandatory for some things.  He then goes on to list things they require a government ID and that list includes getting a job.  Well the only ID for getting a job is a SS card.  He is arguing for people needing a photo-id to vote.  That government ID he is stating you need for get a job is not a goverment ID that would allow you to vote.  This to a logic argument is the equivalent to a shell game, a swith-a-roo.  It is dishonst and I have no doubt he is smart enough to know eactly what he was doing.   There are more examples in that one piece but I will leave it at that.

Sorry all for the rant.  But I love those that foster honest discussion of the issues.  In equal neasure I despise the charlatans that run con-games masquerading as honest discussion.  And for the reason stated above, that is my opinion of what I find with most of fox. 

I'm with you on Voter ID.

I still disagree on Tucker Carlson NOT because what you said was wrong but because HE regularly tells his viewers that he is biased to the right on most things.

I think that's an important distinction for someone in the "news" media to make and for anyone who listens to understand. I expect that if there is a slant to be made, the opinion people like TC are going to the right or maybe to the Libertarian view as he often does.

You find the same kind of knowing distortion on the Left-leaning media as well. Since the media is overwhelmingly Liberal Fox is swimming against the current the majority of the time.

  I watched PBS for years for the nightly news. I loved the McNeil/Lehrer news hour. I thought they were as about as fair/balanced as you could get.

Then they brought in the two women. The tone/tenor went HARD left and I couldn't watch anymore.

  The media has openly acknowledged that 90% or more of the stories they do about this administration are NEGATIVE!

  I get hating President Trump as a person, but how can you give someone a 90% disapproval by your stories when at least 50% of the voters APPROVE of what he's done?

  That disconnect with the voter is why the polls got it all wrong in 2016. The ONLY poll I believe in and trust is the poll the day AFTER the final ballots are cast.
   

 

Something to think about when talking about the media role in the current crisis.

  How can a President who was duly elected by at least half the voters receive over 90% NEGATIVE coverage by the mainstream media?

  Joe Concha grades the media coverage of the coronavirus crisis   (You need to Login or Register

In Cronkite's day, news was a public service and a matter of network pride paid for by other programing. Now, due to massive competition for viewers, news programing pays the bills. Advertisers are the customers and we the viewers are the product they are buying.

Hannity and Rush are the highest paid opinion guys and worth their 40 million a year because us-against-them sells especially well to folks who can't tell opinion from facts, or prefer not to for some reason.

I grew up watching Cronkite. He was a true journalist.
At the end of his broadcast, he sometimes did an opinion piece.

  He made sure everyone watching KNEW it was HIS opinion.

  That's my biggest beef with the media today.
I know when I listen to Hannity/Rush that they are going to be giving THEIR opinions. Sometimes I disagree on how they see a news event but I have no doubt that they are opinion presenters.

  I listen to 90% of the other media and EVERYONE on the panel, even so-called "news" people are giving their opinions MIXED with the news.

  They don't separate the two so many people think EVERYTHING they say is an indisputable fact.
I prefer to hear the subject of the story speak and I'll decide if I believe it or not.

solotripper wrote on May 4^th, 2020 at 6:30pm:

They don't separate the two so many people think EVERYTHING they say is an indisputable fact. I prefer to hear the subject of the story speak and I'll decide if I believe it or not.

If you want good press, do good things.

As an example, here's a quote from 4 hours ago:

"In any event, we have great testing capacity, and have performed 6.5 million tests, which is more than every country in the world, combined!"

Do your own factcheck on that. Here's mine. The first is an unfortunate fact. The next is an old fact and the third is, at best, not true.

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But but but wouldn't you think a POTUS would have better things to do during a national emergency?

Quote:

If you want good press, do good things.

  We HAD the strongest economy in the world, maybe the best of all time.
   The Liberal mainstream media refused to acknowledge what the WH had accomplished.
They did the same with those tax cuts which ALL my friends still working received and appreciated.

  That's my whole point. I don't mind the media going after the President IF/WHEN they think he did something wrong. What I mind is they all but REFUSE to give him ANY credit for things millions of Americans approve of.

  I've NEVER seen any administration treated so unfairly and with less balance than this one has since BEFORE he was elected.

   

Right to try was good, sort of. That's pretty much all I got.

Speaking of Presidents and stuff.
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Tax cuts went mostly to those who had plenty; relative spare change thrown to the working stiffs. From a economic stand point a waste- Trump inherited a good and growing economy, this was a time to reduce the debt not pour on the juice for your millionaires and billionaire donors. The economy has not markedly improved from Obama to Trump though the sheer volume of credit taking and bragging has sky-rocketed. After criticizing Obama's deficit spending (to try and mitigate the 2008 collapse) Trump doubles down on deficit spending via tax cuts and military spending- with no coherent economic plan other than occasional references to the thoroughly discredited and demonstrably false Laffer notion that through some voodoo and black magic cutting taxes will somehow increase revenue. It was a huge gift to the wealthiest americans and corporations- a gift that did not filter down to workers (check out the vast increase in stock by backs by corporations after the tax cut). For example Buffets Berkshire Hathaway made $29 billion overnight due to the tax cut. Its amazing that Fox can convince anyone of  reasonable means that Trump is somehow working int their interest.

Can't ever figure out how so many Americans fall for grifters with weird hair (see any televangelist for details).

Well, maybe Obama LIGHT Joe Biden will be the next President and he can show everyone how to get things done  ::)

Remember Obama said he didn't have a Magic Wand to bring back those MFG jobs NAFTA took from us? Well it turned out President Trump found it on his Oval Office desk.

It's called a TELEPHONE where he called business people and told them what he would do to help them bring mfg back home and what it would cost them if they didn't.

  I don't see how anyone can think this administration hasn't help working people? BUT isn't it great we live in a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC where people are FREE to disagree.  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

The only way I can rationalize why someone would support Trump is that they must be drinking the Kool-Aid/bleach.

solotripper wrote on May 5^th, 2020 at 2:08am:

Remember Obama said he didn't have a Magic Wand to bring back those MFG jobs NAFTA took from us? Well it turned out President Trump found it on his Oval Office desk.

Welp, maybe his tiny little hands couldn't hold the magic wand properly?  ;D ;)
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=qTbc

It gets worse.
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You realize that US mfg was significantly changed via the disastrous NAFTA treaty.

  So changing the mindset and the supply chains aren't going to happen fast, it's a slow steady effort.

  For decades NO administration had the cajones to take on the COMMUNIST Chinese government which controls ALL aspects of their economy.

Everyone whined about them doing us wrong but that was just lip service. The DEM challenger said they were NOT a threat at all folks besides they gave my kid 1.5 billion dollars for his start-up investment fund of which he had NO prior experience or expertise in. Yup, nice folks indeed.  ;) ;D ;D

 
Quote:

The only way I can rationalize why someone would support Trump is that they must be drinking the Kool-Aid/bleach

   OR maybe they see things much differently than you do. Let's see how it all plays out come November. The path for the country couldn't be in starker contrast. I just hope that everyone who said they would leave this country when he won the first time around FOLLOWS THROUGH if he wins again.

All I can say is I hope they can have multiple Presidential debates in some form?

   I want to see a group of both LEFT/RIGHT leaning journalists on the panel too.

  I'd pay good money to see someone ask Joe Biden what he meant by "Economic Intercourse"? I see a Stormy Daniels joke in there somewhere.  ;D ;D
   
Sounds kinky!  ;) ;D ;D

I like a spirited discussion as well as anyone, but I also like getting back to the basic reasons why we all gather here.

db, I assume these are your words below, and fine words they are .  Thanks for providing a site where we can all come to discuss Canoe Tripping, Fishing, and Good Cheer.

"QuietJourney is here to help people share knowledgeable, first hand information about Quetico Provincial Park and the Boundary Waters.

QuietJourney was originally inspired by 20 years worth of camping trips to canoe country (some trips were better than others) and remains for those wanting to share their best canoe camping experience. No two canoe trips are alike.
Take a good look around these pages and if they make your trips better, please come back and throw an extra log on the fire."

Perhaps in line with mossback, i read the past half days post and say oh shit. I've come to dislike bwca.com because things go political too often and too fast but i liked the honesty and fairness here ....until now.

BillConner wrote on May 5^th, 2020 at 11:21pm:

Perhaps in line with mossback, i read the past half days post and say oh shit. I've come to dislike bwca.com because things go political too often and too fast but i liked the honesty and fairness here ....until now.

I wouldn't want to upset anyone so I won't comment anymore. Beside no-one is going to change their mind anyway. It is what it is. ::)

BillConner wrote on May 5^th, 2020 at 11:21pm:

Perhaps in line with mossback, i read the past half days post and say oh shit. I've come to dislike bwca.com because things go political too often and too fast but i liked the honesty and fairness here ....until now.

Agreed.

We used to have "Back to Civilization" here (well, actually we still do) and it is my opinion that the political discussions belong there. 

As the one who started this thread, on a completely unrelated topic, I am fine with moving it to Back to Civilization. The original topic had to do with rebroadcasts of Twins World Series games.

Well, thread-shift and thread-jacking is an entirely non-political different issue.  Just like a group in a lounge, the focus shifts and turns.

I agree with you Bill and Mossback and Lynda but....MAN I'm diggin' Solus's last post.  Finally someone can articulate that scenario.  Thank you Solus.  Fine work my friend.  :)

I will yield my time as to not slide further into the rabbit hole.

"
TomT wrote on May 6^th, 2020 at 11:19am:

I agree with you Bill and Mossback and Lynda but....MAN I'm diggin' Solus's last post.  Finally someone can articulate that scenario.  Thank you Solus.  Fine work my friend.  :) I will yield my time as to not slide further into the rabbit hole.

You agree with us, TomT, but you have to get in one more "dig" before you take off.  This will go on and on. . .and I am out of here.

Spartan2 wrote on May 6^th, 2020 at 12:17pm:

" TomT wrote on May 6th, 2020 at 11:19am: I agree with you Bill and Mossback and Lynda but....MAN I'm diggin' Solus's last post.  Finally someone can articulate that scenario.  Thank you Solus.  Fine work my friend.  :) I will yield my time as to not slide further into the rabbit hole. You agree with us, TomT, but you have to get in one more "dig" before you take off.  This will go on and on. . .and I am out of here.

+1

Clearly, I was just being sarcastic.  The other two responses of Fake News and misquoted didn't seem appropriate.

Westwood wrote on May 6^th, 2020 at 3:52pm:

Clearly, I was just being sarcastic.  The other two responses of Fake News and misquoted didn't seem appropriate.

Or maybe not so clearly to some of us......

Spartan2 wrote on May 6^th, 2020 at 12:17pm:

" TomT wrote on May 6th, 2020 at 11:19am: I agree with you Bill and Mossback and Lynda but....MAN I'm diggin' Solus's last post.  Finally someone can articulate that scenario.  Thank you Solus.  Fine work my friend.  :) I will yield my time as to not slide further into the rabbit hole. You agree with us, TomT, but you have to get in one more "dig" before you take off.  This will go on and on. . .and I am out of here.

It wasn't a dig it was recognition of a fellow paddler's articulation.  I've felt that way (Solus's post) for a long time but was never able to put it into words and when I saw that he COULD I just wanted to commend him for that.  No dig.  You don't want me to post any digs.  My frustration level is maxed out.

Back to the topic (heaven forbid) while New York State has closed it's state parks and campgrounds, and of course play grounds, shelters (pavilions e.g. not lean-tos) and buildings including fire towers, most of the dispersed and primitive camping is open.  Seems reasonable to me.  I've taken advantage of a few of the many state forests  and wildlife management areas for day hikes and paddles, but not overnight yet. I'm sure there are some which are popular, but somehow the ones I've visited are nearly unused by others.  Some are gems for hiking or paddling up to 10 miles or so, and a few permit primitive camping.  Looking forward to a leanto overlooking a lake.

---

I've stayed in Lean -to's a couple of times.
Once on the Appalachian Trail in Maine and a few times hiking Isle Royale which I did 3 times.

The Isle Royale shelters were on small lakes and my group of 4 had them all to ourselves.

The one time we stayed in Maine another group showed up and they wanted to stay in the shelter too.

It was 8 people plus their dog which made for some cramped quarters plus some ill feelings before we all left the next day. I ended up setting my tent up on the edge of the site to have some privacy.

If you can get one for yourself of just your group they are indeed a nice respite from setting a tent/tarp camp.

TomT wrote on May 7^th, 2020 at 11:47am:

Spartan2 wrote on May 6th, 2020 at 12:17pm: " TomT wrote on May 6th, 2020 at 11:19am: I agree with you Bill and Mossback and Lynda but....MAN I'm diggin' Solus's last post.  Finally someone can articulate that scenario.  Thank you Solus.  Fine work my friend.  :) I will yield my time as to not slide further into the rabbit hole. You agree with us, TomT, but you have to get in one more "dig" before you take off.  This will go on and on. . .and I am out of here. It wasn't a dig it was recognition of a fellow paddler's articulation.  I've felt that way (Solus's post) for a long time but was never able to put it into words and when I saw that he COULD I just wanted to commend him for that.  No dig.  You don't want me to post any digs.  My frustration level is maxed out.

I don't care if you post digs or not, TomT.  I am going to quit clicking on this thread now and leave you guys to your discussion.  My frustration level is also maxed out, and I don't come to QJ for political discussion.

It just seemed odd to me that you agreed with me in the quote and then went ahead with the argument.  A political argument.

From now on I'll just look at the POD each morning and let the rest of it go.
Carry on.

  These guys were bored but decided to do something positive about it.  8-)

I'll never look at portaging the same again after seeing what it's taking these guys to try and accomplish their goal.

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A friend sent me this video.

  I think I might have dated her Grandmother  :o ;) ;D

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  Yup, they might not be the strongest but they are damn sure the cleverest.  ;D ;D ;D