Selfish? Aren't we all? We deserve it damn it. 

I'm all for minimizing risk while doing what you wanna do and to me personally, price point is a hurdle I have no desire to broach knowing that something would be a gadget I'd not want to use anyway ... but then, I don't share your wanderlust at this point in my life. So, if my wife asked forcefully? I'd give her a hug and say I love you too dear.

Until then, a detailed itinerary works well for us but my kid is younger so I feel an obligation to not be quite as adventurous ... risk, as in no return is no longer an option I'm willing to accept - for a few more years anyway.

my wife will just move on.  lack of a body means it will take longer to get her mitts on the cash

Maybe I'm a pragmatist........I used to think I was basically indestructible in the woods. Many months hoofin big loads off trail......lots of nights crawlin through swamps tryin to keep up with my dog. Nobody ever knew where I was at and I never gave it a second thought.

Having experienced something going wrong and being basically incapacitated was a wake up call. And that was not even life threatening just rather supremely frustrating that I was going to have to sit there for many, many days........no thanks, I'm busy, time to move on.

Yup, I will always have SAT and probably a SPOT with me from now on. Peace of mind to know I can get on with life should something happen to me or my boat. Call for a floatplane or rescue........Certainly small enough, light enough. Might even save someones life. Besides, if your gone for more than a few weeks it might be nice to hear the voices of those you care for and vica-versa.

Canoe adventurists are an independent lot.......I encourage that. I am reminded of an event in a recent book I read where Verlen kruger and his dear friend Jerry set out to canoe the White River in Ontario. The first day they came to a falls.......Verlen hit the portage while Jerry was swept past. He managed to grab onto a limb but the current took his boat. Verlen and Jerrys eyes locked......the implications being realized. Jerry went to retrieve his boat and was never seen again. I pondered that for some time. Was "peer" pressure partly responsible for Jerry's actions? Quite probable. It cost him his life.

There are many here on QJ I admire a great deal. The originator of this thread has achieved a mythic canoe hero status for me. But I have decided that I will choose what is best for myself and I think you should to. There is some notion that being able to have contact with the outside world is somehow impinging on the wilderness experience. Reality, however, has a way of inserting itself on our most deeply held beliefs and I believe this is one such scenario.

If you are with a group I can understand not having any device especially if the group is fairly young and fit. As the party ages I think the risk that someone might need medical attention rises significantly. Just read BWJ where there are numerous such stories. If someone in your party goes down with any number of serious injuries the concept of calling in help instead of attending a funeral becomes very attractive.

On the other hand my idea is you stow the device and basically forget it. If you call mommy every night, yea, that might sort of ruin your time as you get to hear about the bills and how Mary and Bobby are fighting. My biggest problem with the SAT is going to be explaining to my wife I'm not going to be calling her all the time.

But lets move on.........solo is a different animal. I like being in control. Captain of my own ship (lest I get pegged unfairly my philosophy on group trips is "do what you want"). When i went down in WCPP I would not of been in control of my destiny had I not had the SPOT. I would of been at the mercy of others. I would of had to wait on that sandbar for who knows how long and then I would of had to ask passerby's for help. And not only help to get to the EP but also a ride to town. A massive sacrifice for someone to have to do. I might of ruined some one else's trip.  That is unacceptable IMO and thus my desire to remain independent and in control. Anyway.......decide for yourself. I have spent more time in the woods than the average bear and the thought that it would detract from my experience has never crossed my mind.

Long winded I know. I had plenty of time to think as I was biking (I'm going to write a book......."How to become a wimp in 6 months")

I can tell by most of the responses that a big part of my concern is no being addressed so I'll explain further. My wife has been tripping out of a canoe longer than I, some 40 years. She introduced me to canoe country in 1977. She absolutely knows what it's all about. She does not really have anxiety about my safety although that is surely part of it. She is concerned about the practical aspect of a lost or missing person. A situation that can be almost entirely avoided by using the tools that are available today.
Think about it you preserve your sense of adventure and gone off alone into the wilderness with no means to reach anyone. You become lost, injured or dead. Now you have unfairly burdened your loved ones with the avoidable anxiety of a search and rescue. When do you call it off - who decides? When do you give up hope? You have possibly deprived the people you love the most with the answers they desire for proper closure.

All of the most serious adventures (Everest climbers radio relays, around the world sailors, spelunkers etc.)taking place today use ALL of the tools available to them to ensure a rescue if things go badly. Are those not adventures then?

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There size of the group and condition of the group makes a big difference in the answer to this. I do not think it OVERLY selfish if a group of six (in 3 canoes) takes no such device.  Thta size group has plenty of "redundancy" for dealing with issues.

A solo is a much different situation.  For a solo person not to have a mechanism of getting help is way more risky than anything I am willing to deal with.  So my first thought is risky, not selfish.  As to whether or not it is selfish, that also depends on what responsibilities one has to others.

I always rent a sat phone, my wife says that if anything should happen to me she would not be able to canoe out solo and we try to get to areas where we don't see many other people.  It's basically peace of mind, precautionary.

Hey KF, et al - All good points.  What I have learned from this discussion is that these devices need not be intrusive.  Set 'em up, beam up, turn 'em off.  Done.  I can do that. 

I can also get over the notion that "reducing risk detracts from wilderness experience."  In reality, this idea is pretty much a figment of my imagination anyway. 

But I do find the squawk of electronics (think weather radio) annoying!  We covered this on another discussion thread: but quiet, peace, solitude, and serenity is a bit part of what I treasure about canoe country.  As someone wrote on this thread, I like to get away from cell phones and all the other ubiquitous gadgetry that seems to define our modern lives.  I don't think that's selfish.  And if I can send a signal that might give loved ones some of comfort knowing where to search for my bloated corpse, or just knowing I are "in touch," without the hum, whir, whiz, squawk, static...that seems like an easy and very reasonable tradeoff.  Clearly, I've got to get off my neanderthal ass and learn a bit more about these devices. 

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments.

prouboy

So did you intend to lay a guilt trip on me.
Westwood

A SPOT device on which you just push the "okay" button every so often I do not see as having a big effect on the quality of "alone in the wilderness" experience.  I use one and find everyone at home really likes being able to see where I am and my progress, etc.
I would not however want to carry a sat-phone or any other device I could talk to the outside world on; or worse the outside world might use to contact me.  That I would feel is cheating on the wilderness experience.

Can't seem to bring myself to buy one (even at the current cheap price that DentonDoc cited the other day).

If Mrs. Jimbo (or anyone else) gets worried enough & wants to buy one for me to address HER (their) concern, I suppose I'll carry it.

Jimbo   

mastertangler wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 3:07pm:

Well, I WAS actually thinking more in terms of an Italian CRUISE ship.

dd

Yes, Jimbo, you should JUST GET a Spot.  I pay for the tracking feature in my yearly fees.  Then I can use it to follow my exact bushwack route on Google maps, where my campsites were, etc. and print it out when I get home to add to my journal.  I sometimes will use it to determine how long it took me to cover a certain distance...the posts back home to the computer also register the time of day and date.  Since I do not carry a watch it is sometimes interesting to see how early or late I got out of camp or made camp each day.  You  could use it to mark where you saw that moose, or bear, or even the location of your best lucky fishing holes. 

What happens if your SPOT gets broken?  You can no longer send the I'm ok message, so the people at home assume something went wrong.   If you carry the SPOT on your person and you fall in the water or it gets wet during an all day soaker and it doesn't work, the folks back home get worried.  So maybe the broken SPOT causes a big ruckus inspite of your best intentions.
Westwood

Along with a disabled spot actually causing the problems that it was supposed to prevent we have various studies that show that the more safety devices one employs the more risky his behavior becomes. A recent bike helmut study comes to mind but I'm too lazy to look it up. Does anyone suppose that just because we have a SPOT or SAT phone that we might do something we ordinarily would not. Personally, I have backed off of a few bushwhacks when solo simply because I had no means of initiating a rescue if I became lost or hurt.
There is anecdotal evidence from rescue personnal that outdoor people are generally engaging in more risky behavior because of the spread of rescue communication devices.

Kingfisher wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 2:37pm:


From my former career in the US Forest Service, I learned that while behavior may not be made riskier with this technology, (I have no data on this), there is an increased EXPECTATION that if you're hurt, you can get on your sat phone and request a plane or chopter to get you out of the BWCA.  This expectation borders on the insane: a sprained ankle, a severe sunburn, poison ivy, a broken finger, etc, have all been reasons cited for requesting to be airlifted!  The Forest Service has had to work hard to lower this expectation caused by increased communication technology.  They try to point out the BWCA is a wilderness, and they won't airlift except for extreme emergencies.  Despite their efforts, I see this trend only increasing. 

prouboy

quote from MT
The thought never even occurred to me that I would need SPOT for anything other than sending "I'm OK" messages. Now I want to be able to call a floatplane if need be instead of SAR.  [/quote]

IMO we need to really grasp what MT has learned. Think too about our loved ones back home. The agony they will go through until SAR can give them a status report on why we called them in.

I carry the Sat phone so I am better able to handle my own problems. I have said many times that with a GPS and a Sat  phone they will at least know where to look for my body. In a worst case scenario it would make everyone's life easier.

My take on this is basically the same as it is on wearing PFD's.

I think that if your married, have children or anyone else that depend on you for financial or emotional support, then you have an obligation to do all you can to stay safe and lessen their worry.

Others like myself don't have this blessing/burden and in practical terms no-one is going to suffer financially or long term emotionally if I don't make it back. My family/friends know I like the outdoor thing and would miss me but understand I accept the risk.

I don't have a death wish or relish the idea of dying a gruesome death if stranded and can't get out on my own. But the idea of everyone having Spots/Sats and inevitably Cell Phone capabilities bothers me as that will eventually lead to what it has in day to day life, non stop texting/talking in public with the complete disregard for anyone else that maybe in earshot. Once the floodgates are opened by any kind of mandatory ruling, abuses will surely follow. Are we ready to except that?

Another good point is that some people will abuse the system like prouboy mentioned becasue they'll overreach their abilities figuring they can get rescued anytime they want.

Do we really want our First Responders additionally burdened with call from wilderness travelers that have decided the want out NOW just becasue they can get a call out and expect the authorities to respond?

Mandating devices seems a bit of a stretch, but it's probably coming. Somebody will end up mandating canoe mfgs put chips in their products for "liability" issues and the decision will be out of our hands.

Wally has it about right. His wife will move on, although she might have to sell some of his stuff until the insurance check clears. I'm sure the contents of his "jelly cabinet" would fetch a tidy sum, and the Evil Black Rifle too.

Quote:

A few well publicised instances of people having to mortgage their homes after they called SAR because something went bump in the night will fix most of these.  The rest can mortgage their homes to pay for their selfish stupidity.  We're selfish too, but at least we're not stupid about it.

SAR is one of those jobs described as hours of boredom with minutes of excitement.  They live for those minutes.  Even the stupid calls are good practice for them.

There are going to be nuisance calls.  So what?  How many people who actually need extraction, like MT did, should wait or die in pain?  Depending on the degree of your opposition to SPOT you're essentially wishing him the pain.  He & I don't get along on political items, but I'll always wish him tight lines and bug-free campsites.

I might have already related this (or maybe not) but it bears repeating. After I sent the SOS emergency call in the morning I waited about 3 hours while hobbling around on the sandbar and casting a few lures around.....(huge splashes during the night convinced me of walleye activity just outside my tent). I had managed to "pop" the joint back into place (ouch!) that night but it was swollen and sore.

Anyway, after 3 hours I decided to send a "send help" message to my wife's Email. Maybe have her call the park office etc. etc. Little did I know while I was casting my lure (I did catch a nice walleye and a pike) the SPOT was sending consecutive "send help" messages to my wife......one about every 10 minutes. I think she got 6 or 8 "send help" messages. This had the unfortunate effect of her thinking my situation was indeed dire. I also hadn't realized that SAR had already called her some 3 hours earlier, informing her that I tripped the beacon and they were inquiring about me and my physical condition.

When I finally got to talk to her the first thing she said was "the whole world is praying for you" . She had contacted people we knew in several states and of course the prayer chains in various churches started up. My poor wife.......she is a trooper though and was strong despite not knowing. I must admit a certain calm came over me about the whole situation.

The SAR guys said they had loaded up quickly after getting the call but smoke from the fires had delayed them. So, that is a lesson. If you use the "send help" function it will keep sending a message if you keep it on. (even if you are distracted by some nice walleyes)

I have an immediate resistance to using electronic "devices" out in the bush for all the reasons mentioned already, namely I'm going out there to get unplugged, not plug in.  However, I don't solo and my tandem partner is my wife, so if sh$t should ever hit the fan she'll be the first to know (she always is!)
That being said, I do have a 91 year old mother-in-law and my wife just didn't feel comfortable going off without having any way of knowing if something should happen to her.  What we did last summer was take a SAT phone with voice message capability.  No one was to call us unless it was an emergency and we'd check calls every evening.  Thankfully there never was a call and we found the whole process very unobtrusive.  Under those circumstances I was very happy that we had access the satellite techology, it allowed my wife to rest easy and when my wife rests easy, I rest easy - trust me.

Isn't the whole idea of going to the wilderness ,at least subconsciously, to somehow connect with those people who used the area in earlier times? And to experience life free of modern conveniences and worries? 

I go with another person and try to be careful so as not to injury myself or fall out of the canoe. If I have an MI then not sure having a SPOT is going to get anyone there fast enough to save me anyway.  Even 10-15 years ago no one used such devices.  Can't recall reading about losing too many paddlers then.

I for one won't be using a SPOT or cell phone.

If you have kids under driving age you know your responsibilities & priorities.  This is, of course, mitigated by several factors.  Your skill at tripping.  How remote you'll be.  How much your family worries.

I suppose in any spouse relationship it's up to the spouses to find their own way.  My Mrs. is happy just hearing from me once I'm back at the car.

Lots of non-trippers have some crazy ideas about what can and what does happen out there.  Bears & wolves aren't going to get us.  Hypothermia is more likely.  In 20 years of tripping I've been late getting home once.  Mrs. can't make that same claim in a comparable number of nights out with friends.

I'm not a fan of giving in to unreasonable fears, even my own.  Our loved ones need to understand the reality.


Anyone who thinks that going out there connects us to those who lived out there is foolilng themselves.  Life back then was ugly, brutish, and short.  If you're over 40 odds are you would have been dead already.  If you wear shoes, bring food, have a canoe that weighs under 100lbs, have a backpack, etc... you're not connected to them.  We're hobbyists who take the factory-built modern world with us.  The solo-tripper being the most hobby-like of us (that means me).  Exile was the toughest punishment.  It was impossible for a single person to survive for long.  While one person goes out and gets food for everyone another person stays home and makes clothing for everyone someone else gathers nuts & berries yet another works on making the tools.  There aren't enough hours in the day for one person to survive the way they did.  When you're alone with no food, no canoe, no pack, no shelter, and no means other than walking to get out of there on a rainy November day - then you might understand as they did.
We do it to escape.  That's why everyone does everything they do when they have their own time to spend, not company time, not family time, not school time - MY TIME.  The 2 hours between me getting home and Mrs. getting home is MY TIME.  The Tahiti Syndrome runs deep in us, but the reality of actually doing it up here is pretty bleak.
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Great example Marten.

intrepid_camper wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 9:16pm:



Okay, okay... I reached my "tipping point" on this issue over the campfire in my neighbor's driveway last night.  I agreed to take his 15 year-old son on as my "paddling partner" for my mid-July loop from Bottle through to McIntyre, Burt, Brent, Wicksteed, & McAree.  Something about the mother's heightened anxieties got to me.  The father, an attorney, never blinked an eye.  [Apparently a co-worker of his lurks around QJ & is an avid reader of the BWJ and - despite knowing something about me - told the father his son would likely survive the experience with or without a SPOT2.]

Anyway, as soon as I walked back into the house, I made the purchase using one of those DD "Best Buy" deals.  That way, when my sciatica kicks in while I'm climbing some cliff and over-I-go, at least the search party will be able to follow our "tracks" to our last known location (the SPOT2, you see, will likely be in my pocket as I plunge into the abyss and the kid might not be able to fetch it from my new location at the bottom of the adjacent lake).

So, I caved & bought the danged thing.  Somehow, when it was just people worrying about ME, it just didn't matter... I KNOW I'm going to come out OK (definition includes: even if I DON'T come out, Quetico is a nice final resting place so it all "comes out OK"...  if you catch my drift).  On the other hand, to have valued neighbors worrying about their son on his very first wilderness adventure with their kooky neighbor for twelve whole days??  The peace of mind & good will the SPOT2 will buy me with them makes the SPOT2 a good choice at ANY price.

C'est la vie, mes amis....

Jacques-bo   

-with every loss there a gain...with every gain there is a loss. I've been hoping that this whole computer/techno thing would go out of style as some bad dream/poor taste idea of the marginalized youth and antisocial neard sector.  But alas! (is that still a word ?)-hopes of that actually happening,are right up there with the hopes of the guys who at the turn of the last century,hoped that the internal combustion engine and electricity(not to mention fences), would  just please go away...

Peace of mind is actually a big part of why many of us seek out the wilderness. A communication device can now help and aid us in getting that. Change is something I now forget to accept at times,as it's easier to resit adaptation. Playing the infexible curmudgion and the retrogressive fool can be fun in a perverse way,but only untill you come to regret not having all of your options there when you or your loved ones need them. Excuse me for seeming to discourge you. I was just spouting off.

Quote:


Pretty well sums up my feelings.

Quote:


My late Mother was a very adventurous person while I was growing up, but I noticed as she aged and started developing physical infirmities, she became much less so.

Maybe it was all the doom and gloom news stories she watched 24/7, but she was worried about things that are so low on the list of things that could go wrong on a daily basis, it drove me crazy.

I see it now with my aging friends. I go most places alone and they just think I'm crazy as hell for doing so.
Like you, I think the drive up/back is the most dangerous part of any trip.

Still, if a SPOT/SAT gives you peace of mind in your situation, then you should do what makes you feel better

I think that is my concern about using a SPOT for "I'm OK" messages.  People begin to count on them, and they worry more if there isn't one.  Our kids (we no longer have any parents to worry) don't expect any communication from us now, so I guess I would just as soon not start a regular communication that they are expecting.

But the idea of being able to summon help does interest me.  I am not naive enough to think that help could get there in time if one of us had a heart attack or serious stroke and were in danger of imminent death.  We take that risk, and we have discussed it, decided we are willing to take the risk, and we go anyway.

But I do have a personal fear that if my husband were to die on a canoe trip (as a long-time insulin-dependent diabetic with other complications he is more statistically at risk for heart and vascular events, although his yearly tests are always good) I am neither strong enough nor physically fit enough anymore to get myself and a 17-foot canoe plus basic gear back out again.  He carries a lot of the weight for me now, and it would be a really big challenge for me to return alone.  Of course we don't go to really remote places anymore, but even so. . . .if you are five or six portages from the entry point. . . .

I always tell myself that if something dire happened, someone would paddle by in a canoe in a day or so, and I would call to them.  People in the canoe country are good people and they would help me to get back out.  Right?

But having a SPOT begins to look more practical every year.  Maybe when I turn 70.   

Spartan2,

I agree with you about people relying receiving the "OK" messages. I soloed Quetico L. a few years ago and had my parents and girlfriend at the time on the receiving list. Both said they were antsy if they didn't receive a message in the evening (when I planned to send them). Interestingly, they were also the folks who insisted that I buy it and use it. I don't think they had the right mindset to begin with.

If I solo again I'll probably carry the SPOT with me again but I'll try to lay down the law about not counting on receiving a message.

My whole take on it is, if it helps you or the folks at home feel more secure, bring it.

There are a number of ways of using a SPOT device.  But one is (as others have mentioned) to bury it in a pack and onlyuse it if a call for help if that is needed.  In that sense, is it not essentially just another tool in your emergency medical kit.  For me, being new technology has never been a reason not to put something in the med-kit. SPOT used this way is not even a new concept.  It is just more effective then a whistle or a signalling mirror.  Same purpose, just greater range.

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Hey Preacher,

I'm gonna give a different take on this one.

It hinges on the word "connects," of course.

I certainly don't equate the rigor of our trips to the wilderness with the life of my ancestors. Modern equipment, serious help just a call (if you get SPOT/SAT/CELL stuff) away, at the end of the trip I'm back in a truck, house, paying job and so on and so on.

I fully understand that, and agree with your "hobby" vs. "brutish" comparison.

Just like Hollywood, we tend to glamorize and romanticize everything from ranch life to pioneer settlements to explorers and even war. What's the saying about adventure, that it sounds fun until you're in one?

However, there are moments when I'm in the bush where I do gain an inkling of understanding of what life was like back then and do begin to feel what they felt, and do experience some of what they experienced.

Yeah, it's a limited connection, but it's there nonetheless.

For example:

When I'm in the woods for a while, I begin to lose sense of time as in a day measured by a clock. Now it's measured by the sun. The day is sun-up to sun-down. Actually, I don't even carry a watch. The structure of the day changes, as do my sense of "deadlines."

Slowly and surely, my activities begin to be dictated by the weather. Always a nose to the wind, an eye on the sky. Canoeing on big lakes, or hunting deer, especially so.

I don't eat if I don't cook. Can't go through the drive-thru. Wife ain't cooking.

Medically, if you're hurt, you fix it. Guy I was with hit his thumb with an ax on day 3 -- he dealt with it. Wrapped it tight, kept paddling and fishing and cutting wood and cleaning fish (but not pumping water -- we had a gravity system!), and unwrapping and cleaning the wound every day. Granted, it wasn't a broken leg or an arrow wound or animal bite. However he knew he couldn't go to the local ER for some stitches, knew Ibuprofen was about the best he could do for the pain.

When my partner flipped our canoe while fishing (yeah, it was HIS fault, heh heh) on a rainy day in mid-September, I found myself swimming a canoe to shore, crawling up on a log at the base of a cliff and manuevering to empty the canoe and get stuff back loaded, then eventually getting back to camp and some dry clothes. Nobody rescued us. We got ourselves into the mess, then we got ourselves out of it. Self-reliance.

And every time I've had to get a fire started (or re-started after a downpour) with a woods saturated by days of rain, I've instantly felt empathy for the guys who'd had to do the same things sans fire sticks or matches or other modern conveniences. It was easier for me, but I understood -- right then and there -- how such a small thing could have been so big of a deal. And once I DID get it started, I saw immediately just how much a fire would have meant to them on such a day.

And more from a spiritual standpoint, I wrote a piece for a magazine once about going off into the woods alone with a rifle, shooting a deer at dusk, then cleaning and cooking part of it over a fire of honey locust branches I'd broken with my hands while camped on a ridge overlooking a deep ravine. The ending was something like:

As I savored each bite beneath Orion's steadfast watch, I felt wildness and wisdom creep into my soul. I tried to imagine what it had been like two, three, four hundred years ago. And I wondered whether on that same ridge, amid the same solitude, a hunter had cleaned and cooked his kill around a flickering fire, warmed by the same exhilaration of the hunt.

Hokey? Maybe a bit.

But I can tell you that sitting around a fire late at night, listening to the night sounds, eating an animal I just killed myself and surrounded by stars, I do feel emotionally connected more to my ancestors than to my modern-day colleagues, few of whom would ever dream of doing such a thing, or could cross that moral line and take a life, who would gag at the sight of blood, who could even start a fire, and who would surely feel uncomfortable or even afraid out in the wilderness alone.

Am I Daniel Boone or Simon Kenton? (referencing my Kentucky forebearers, you northern woods guys and women insert your own pioneering explorers).

No.

But at such times, for a brief moment, I firmly believe there's a direct line to the heart of my forefathers, whose every moment centered on eating enough and staying warm enough to live another day.

THAT'S why I go out there.

(Thanks for letting me explain, man!)

-- kypaddler 

That was beautiful,Ky.Paddler. I think an awful lot of of us are looking to make that sort of conection. We're not going on a "vacation" away from our job,the" hustle and bustle",'dem wimmens',or for the exercize.  Those of us who are fairely far away and make a very special 'trip' out of getting into that ,...so very hard hard to find...,remote wilderness,are mostly looking for the "magic"...  I'm going to church when I get to go. I suppose that's why some folks worry about letting all this modern "small world" technology come along. Could be it'd spook the 'magic' and turn the whole thing into just a " vacation".  I too, like the way you think. Thanks for laying it out for us so nicely.

I think just filling my lungs full of the sweet early morning air and seeing the change of color and light is enough to let me share something pretty strong with those who have stood on the very same shore at dawn.  ...