The PCD is now about 10 years old, which in computer technology terms, is canvas-tent type ancient.  Another website has been developed, (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links), which has the campsite data capability of the PCD and so much more (better map scrolling, routing, etc).  That site currently uses PCD data (with permission). The question I am currently pondering is instead of that site using the PCD data, actually moving the PCD data to (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) where it would be maintained in the future and shutting down the PCD.

While the PCD was totally free with no ads or fees (falling within the scope of the research mission of a university), this new site is a commercial site.  However the campsite data can be accessed for free (the site has ads and "premium" memberships).  I have never felt the data the PCD collected was mine but "ours", the people who contributed it.

So I am asking the community that contributed the PCD data for your thoughts on moving the data to this new location.  And I shall also point out (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) is only now using "public" PCD data, not the inukshuk-only data. If the data moves, should the inukshuk-only data also move (becoming public) or just disappear.

Your thoughts please.

AZ, as you know, I've always had mixed feelings. It's your baby after all IMHO.

As far as Inuk data goes, I know there are folks here due, in large part, to your efforts. Thank you for that. I also know it made being specific a whole lot easier and I think thats probably true for a bunch of us so I'm fine with whatever you decide.

What's PCD?

Old Salt wrote on Apr 18^th, 2014 at 12:44am:


My thoughts exactly.

Ranger

I'm still a little confused. Is the membership free or paid? 

If you move it to new site, when would that happen?

I use PCD regularly, and am also extremely grateful for all the work that Azalea has put in over the years in making this invaluable resource available to the Quetico paddling world.

But all things eventually come to an end, so I'm even more grateful to Azalea for finding a potential new home for PCD as suitable as MNCanoeing.com. The inevitable alternative - pulling the plug on PCD when it eventually stops being viable to maintain - would have been a loss to us all.

Like all of the previous posters, I'm happy to accept whatever Azalea decides to do. All of my past PCD submissions have been "open", so I have no problem with them being publicly available through MNC. But if I had contributed any Inuk-only entries, I would feel a little betrayed if they were now to be made public. So I am also in the camp suggesting that Inuk-only submissions should be deleted before handing things over to MNC.

Thanks again!

I too agree with Joe and am very appreciative of Azelea's hard work.

Wonder if the new site might create and Inuk only membership......

zski wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 1:58pm:

Now I have a question. I think one difference was the star ratings.  Is there a difference beyond what is an actual viable campsite and what isn't?

IMO:
I would hate to see the PCD go away. It's a valuable resource for me. Any info contained in the PCD was put on the maps in confidence, it should be omitted if the database is transferred to the new website.

In my own selfish world, I would rather not have the public see it at all but I know that's not fair to others who benefit from it.

Tom

I agree with the comments above.  We usually travel in groups of 6 or more so finding areas with multiple suitable sites is key to planning a trip. The PCD has been a valuable resource for doing that - thanks!  I rely on the tent pad #s and comments - and the date they were made - as much as the star ratings.

Anyone can save a permanent record of the average ratings for each campsite in pcd by downloading the oziexplorer file. There is one file for inuks and one for non-inuks, and you only get the average rating for each campsite, not the individual ratings or the text comments, but maybe that's good enough.

If you don't want to use Oziexplorer or Memory-Map, the Oziexplorer file data can also be read in in Excel. Go to "Data" - "From Text" - (select the Oziexplorer file) - select "delimited"and check the "comma" box, then import the data into a new worksheet, making sure the data type of column B is "text".

Azalea's help file tells you what each column refers to. The only one that's a bit of a nuisance is the one ending up in "column K" in the Excel sheet. If you want to parse that column into something a bit cleaner, you can create six new columns, with the following formulas:

Column K: Already contains a string like this:    ?:?:Namakan River    :-m---
Columns V through Z should be blank, so enter the following formulas into line 5 and copy them to the other rows in the sheet:
Column V: =TRIM(LEFT(K5,FIND(":",K5,1)-1))
Column W: =MID(K5,LEN(LEFT(K5,FIND(":",K5,1)-1))+2,100)
Column X: =LEFT(W5,FIND(":",W5,1)-1)
Column Y:=MID(W5,LEN(X5)+2,100)
Column Z: =LEFT(Y5,FIND(":",Y5,1)-1)
Column AA: =MID(Y5,LEN(Z5)+2,100)

Columns W and Y can be hidden; Columns V, X, Z and AA contain the average rating, number of tent pads, lake name, and original data source for each site respectively.

I won't promise anything, but this should work with free spreadsheet programs like Open Office if you don't have Excel.

I don't mean to be critical or contentious, but is a few bucks really not affordable?  That's a serious question, no jerking around intended.

I'm the creator of MN Canoeing. I just wanted to explain the move and answer some of the questions that have come up here. I haven't been able to get a hold of AZ since he gave me the data and we made an agreement. Perhaps he will come back and chime in.

The public PCD ratings will remain free. That is part of my agreement with AZ. In any case, I don't believe in charging for access to anything that was contributed by people other than myself (unless that is their wish). What I am charging for is the parts of the website that have been very labor-intensive (hundreds of hours on my part). So, in short, no one is losing access to the PCD.

With AZ's approval, I have been using the "average" PCD ratings for awhile. With moving all of the data to MN Canoeing, I now have all of the comments and individual ratings as well. It is true that I used to remove all of the "not a campsite" locations, but now I put them back on the map, so they can also be updated now.

I tried matching up the usernames in the PCD to the usernames on MN Canoeing. If you are a member and I was able to match it up, you have the ability to add, update, and delete your ratings. If you register and then want to associate your PCD ratings with your username, just send me an email via the website.

Right now, only the public ratings are publicly available. (If I was able to match your username, you also have access to your own Inukshuk ratings, but no one else does.) AZ and I agreed to continue the discussion about the Inukshuk ratings here. I am very grateful for the contributions that the QJ community made to the PCD (I have used it myself extensively the past few years). I would also hate to see the Inukshuk ratings just disappear. I told AZ that I would be more than willing to make a deal with the QJ community.

As I understand it, the original intent was to make sure the people with access to the Inukshuk ratings also were contributors to the Quetico community. If db is willing to work with me on this, I can grant access to the Inukshuk ratings to any Inukshuks on QJ. On the MN Canoeing side, I can either grant access with a premium membership or if you have accumulated so many "points" (earned by rating campsites, posting trip reports, etc.). I would lean towards the "points" solution since I don't want to charge for access to user-contributed data, but I will leave this open for discussion.

I am very grateful for this community's contributions over the years, so I take very seriously your concerns and suggestions.

It has been a busy few weeks but I am back.

One of the major considerations for me in moving the data to mncanoeing was my PCD was not just data.  There was a whole programming "engine" behind it.  The way that engine worked was very old-fashioned.  You ever notice how long it took some map pages to load?  Instead of using tools available now, there was code creating a small map file from a very big one so the website could display that small map file.  Because of that design, there was no way to scroll the map. And that is just one example.

I had pondered re-writing the whole thing, but then I became aware of the mncanoeing website.  It has everything in it (and more) that I would have put in a re-write.  It was just plain stupid to re-invent the wheel, if  Ben was willing to continue to give QJ'ers the kind of access we had enjoyed to date.

I encourage you to, try his site if you have not done so already.  It is way better than the PCD.  I think you will all find this is a vast improvement.

This was not a sell out to some money-hungry enterprise.  Ben is a canoeist just like the rest of us. Any proceeds he will get will not come close to paying for all the labor he has put in.  And even then he is donating some of the proceeds to canoeing organizations. So I gave him a big thanks for what he is providing us.

db wrote on May 21^st, 2014 at 5:24am:


I believe I know how to make this work. I'll get it set up and let you know where to point it.

db wrote on May 21^st, 2014 at 5:24am:


That is too bad. So far mine is working, but I don't have very many users, either. All of the people on the site are "honest and thoughtful" - I've been semi-dreading the day when I have to watch and make sure everyone still is.

BillConner wrote on Jul 4^th, 2014 at 5:31pm:


I'm really sorry about that. I was in the Quetico when it went down and fixed it when I got back today. I won't say "I hope it didn't cause any inconvenience" since I know it caused a lot of inconvenience for many people. I hope you'll forgive the lapse.

It's a very friendly site so thank you.  Well organized and easy to find ratings and info.  The rates don't seem prohibitive, but appropriate.  Maybe there is a way to have a one time, limited to one year special guest status for people who were members of PCD.  Just a thought to help folks migrate to the new site.

bstrege wrote on Jul 14^th, 2014 at 6:19pm:


I looked on the inukshuk board and could not find any link to the advanced ratings.  And it looks like this discussion has gone quiet.  It's been a few years since I used the PCD so I frankly don't recall what is missing from the non inukshuk ratings.  Are all the campsites still there and just the 5 star ratings missing?

If that's all it is, I am OK, as long as i know what I am missing.
Thanks
David Thomas

Don't sweat it.

Dots are good. Stars are to be avoided sometimes. Comments are in the eye of the beholder.

In the past, I remember adding one or two this is not a campsite anymore type labels. Stars have always been paddler dependent.

Last I looked, there were still unmarked campsites (no one could miss) to be thankful for. There was one point marked a few years ago that I aimed for and it looked good to me but I wasn't up for the LNT thing since it wasn't a campsite anymore so I moved on. The next 4-5 star dot I aimed for would rank e for emergency.

I wouldn't know how many stars to give the site I eventually camped at. It was memorable.

chaga wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 12:14pm:


The site was changed to (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) since it doesn't cover just Minnesota anymore.

To answer your question - no, you don't need to join to access the PCD. To contribute ratings, your would need to register (free). If you contributed to the PCD previously, I can link your old PCD ratings to your account so you can manage/update/delete them.  You can also access your own Inukshuk ratings (once you register and let me know what your PCD username was), but no one else can at the moment. There are some paid features, but accessing the PCD, maps, and other data is free.

I wholeheartedly agree with db - I don't actually like the star system, but it is what everyone is used to. I much prefer detailed comments over star ratings. I have seen the same campsite marked one star and five stars by different people. It all depends on what you need out of a campsite. An example is my trip this last weekend with my 5-year-old son. The campsite we stayed at was probably only an average campsite, but it was perfect for him. To the "normal" paddler, it was only three stars, but to us it was 5 stars for that weekend.

me wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 5:16pm:


Depends on if it is a "rating" or if someone is just letting me know a site does/does not exist. If it is to let me know about a map correction such as changing a campsite status, I fix it as long as the source seems credible and doesn't contradict what others have said.

For ratings or other comments, traditionally I haven't done anything with them. I've considered creating an "anonymous" identity that I could use to post them. I haven't yet, though, since I have not received many and I would like the contributor to have the ultimate ability to change/delete the comments.

My kid says I don't do sarcasm very well and my wife agrees.

Eh, whatever.

Two stock-holding members of Congress walk into a heavy metal bar. You’d think the second one would’ve ducked.
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