Interesting reading here, all the different perspectives.

Back to the whole attitude of the Atikokan locals and outfitters feeling "entitled" to Quetico- its just sour grapes.  Facts of geography are that Ely is x mi/km closer to 1000's (10 000's? 100 000's?) more people interested in experiencing a true backcountry wilderness than Atikokan is.  Park policies (influenced heavily by certain loud mouths in Atikokan- most locals couldn't care less- they would never pay to go camping!) have tried to reverse this, but it's a battle that was lost before it was ever fought.  

Having spent a not insignificant amount of time in AT in my lifetime, many local businesses could really take lessons on how to treat guests/ visitors/ customers.  Might help in the repeat customer department, Q paddlers included!

Just my thoughts.

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I think some of the animosity has to do with the differences between the American culture and the Canadian.

Americans on the whole IMHO are/can be very aggressive compared to other cultures. Canadians are polite/passive for the most part (except on the ice).

Two events pop-out that illustrate that. Both involved Q-Dave who is a real laid back guy, probably at the detriment to being a good businessman, at least by OUR standards.

The year I entered at Stanton Bay, I arrive noon Friday as usual, gassed up, bought some groceries and beer, got my permits at park office and headed for Dave's place on Flanders Lake.

Dave greeted me, we got business out of the way, and loaded my gear and rental canoe on his truck, and since I was staying in the bunkhouse there, we cracked open the beer, he fired up the grill, and we caught up on what was going on in Atikokan and the Park.

I was half-in the bag, when the phone rang and a party that was going into White Otter, Sunday, had decided to drive straight thru and wanted to go in early morning Sat.

They were a big ticket group compared too me, and I could see by the look on Dave's face that he was conflicted on what too do? I wanted early AM start, so there was NO way he could do both. He tried too explain that he had another Sat AM drop off, but they insisted and threatened to use Canoe Canada, IF Dave wouldn't accommodate their last minute plans.

I was sitting right there, so I told him he could take me in tonight, and I would camp at Stanton Bay. When he got off phone, he was upset. He didn't want to take me that late, knowing I was being nice for his sake.
I told him, I understood, it was no big deal and off we went. I got there about dark, and set up Dry-Fly, and hung my Hammock. Dave told me that if any one asked, show them my canoe rental receipt and it would be okay. Later on a Canadian couple drove in, and set up camp for their early AM start. They had some beer, so I traded some info for a few cold Canadians.

When Dave picked me up at Beaverhouse at the end of the trip, he said  the party that insisted on the early AM Saturday start, had arrived closer to noon, and had rented some canoes in Atikokan, and only needed him for drop-off and pick-up. When he told them how I had went out of MY way so he could accommodate them, they didn't bat an eye.

The other incident Dave told me about, was the 4 American Doctors who during the low water season awhile back, had insisted on going in thru 3 Mile Lake, even though Dave told them the water level was extra low, and they might end up walking instead of paddling? They wanted to fish Wolseley, then paddle out into Beaverhouse. Dave suggested dropping them at LLC, same loop, minus 3 mile. They refused.

Dave dropped them off, even gave them last chance as he could see by put-in how low the water was! He had a group going into White Otter, so he didn't get back to his camp until after noon.

He got a few angry messages and finally the Doctors got him in person.
They had struggled, got lost went South instead of East, and wound up at LLC. They wanted Dave to pick them up ASAP. When he gets there, there mad at HIM and want a FULL refund! Seems one of the Doctors had a mild heart attack, as diagnosed by his Cardiologist buddy, and they were basically blaming Dave for the whole situation

He told me that he wasn't giving any refunds, and they threatened to bad mouth him too their friends. Dave told them that IF their friends where a dumb as they were, he didn't want their business

Not ALL tourists act like this, just like not ALL Canadians resent Americans, but I've seen and heard enough Americans acting rude and aggressive in foreign countries too know that sometimes were our own worse enemies

I have no problem with the status quo up there and am always careful what I wish for. They banned motor use on Pickerel (late 70's?) shortly before my first trip. My take on things is that the Park does what it can to encourage Canadian usage (an uphill climb IMO) rather penalize US pushy Americans with quotas and fee structures. (I always feel strange claiming our continent as my own.)

It is a privilege. That's how it was designed and think that's one of the few points where perception and reality almost meet along wildly different yet parallel and yes, interdependent paths. I get the lifestyle choice concept as well and those choices have consequences too.

Last year there were numerous centennial events planned, which I tried my best to avoid. When I got to Atikokan, the White Otter parking lot was packed as was the Marlin Tree or whatever it's called now. I grabbed the second to last (lower quality but upstairs) room left. Turns out there was a Bass fishing tourney somewhere close by. There were a bunch of events surrounding it including a band that night. Best time I ever had in Atikokan!

Wally - once I get past the Fort Frances or T BAY speed restrictions, there are only three signs that garner my attention. Bump, night danger and sometimes this one:

DentonDoc wrote on Jan 20^th, 2010 at 12:07am:


Hell just froze over.

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And that's their prerogative and really none of our concern.  I would imagine that outfitting is a lifestyle choice for these folks and the business end is about 30% of the equation.  It probably didn't start that way but the reality of the wilderness hospitality business bites hard and often.  Of the dozen or so folks around here that try to make their life easier there are a thousand other folks skewing our efforts.

PhantomJug wrote on Jan 19^th, 2010 at 10:32pm:

I fully concur with PJ on this!  If I didn't hold Quetico in very high esteem, I certainly wouldn't be treking all the way across the US to get there (and I'm even crazy enough to do it twice during softwater season).  And I must not be paying attention ... I've found everyone I've dealt with along the "north shore" to at least be a neutral interaction (if not absolutely positive).

But having a drive up campground on the shores of Batch is a bit of a concern.   It would be only a small step from there to making Batch a motor lake and due to is proximity/connectivity to Pickeral, it could easily be the next domino to fall.  If those events came to pass, I don't think I'd make any effort to extend my trek to Atikokan to see something similar to Basswood.  Up to now, I've made some attempt to alternate north versus south entries where possible.

dd

And to clarify, I'm talking about Atikokan-area outfitters only.  Not Canadian outfitters and fly-in posts as a whole.  Sportshows are filled with Canadian fly-in camps, of course.

I don't think QJ can change anything up there in regards to outfitters and park rules.  I'm not advocating change either.  I'm just pointing out an underutilized resource and a mindset that virtually guarantees it will continue to be so. 

Nor do I want to go up there and compete against them (even as I'd kick some tail, of course  ) because the moment I open an outfitting business is the moment I've taken my last canoe trip between May 10 and Sept 15.  That, and Mrs. Snow_Dog has made it very clear that we live as far north as she cares to live. 

Agreed, filling cabins is one of the bigger games to be played up there.  But the potential of expanding canoeable wilderness or semi-wilderness isn't being tapped at all.

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And that's my point.  Outfitters who aren't willing to open up to potential customers (or who just don't know the area they service very well) are going to have a hard time making a go of it.  Then blaming Ely outfitters and penalizing customers for not fitting their definition of "ideal" just makes it worse.

Tom's right.  The sports shows are paved with Canadian this and fly-in that.  Filling cabins is the name of the game. 

It's hard for us as people "vested" in the back-country, self-reliant camping to be objective about it.  We love Quetico more than Quetico probably loves Quetico.  I've never been treated badly by a Canadian regarding my relationship with canoeing up there but yes, people are tight lipped about certain areas etc...  I'm tight lipped about my favorite spots too but after some work, time and talking to people NOT found in a Google search, my experiences were greatly enhanced.  In fact, 90% of what I know about Quetico, Atikokan, Crown Land was not found among the halls of QJ.

To think that we can change anything up there is a little "elitist" IMO.  I consider myself fortunate to be able to use Quetico and I hold that favor lightly knowing that it is not a "right" but a privilege.

I'm much farther away (in Ohio), but I don't recall ever seeing anyone from the BWCA side at a sport show here - could be my memory - but none are on the list for this year either.  We get lots of Canadian places -- mostly eastern Ontario, even Quebec -- but we do get Canoe Canada here every other year or so.  During one slow time I picked Jim Clark's brain about Quetico for an hour or so & he was pretty forthcoming about routes, fishing, etc.  Now granted, I'd been a paying customer in the past, so that may have helped.
Just another perspective.
-Tom

PS: one thing mentioned (lamented) was that their canoeing / park business was down, but that their cabin business (mostly north of Atikokan) was way way up -- so some of this may be the business model.  Why not invest more where you're going to make more money?

Is the "quote" feature disabled or something.  I'm going blind reading this thread.