As a matter of safety, and in the spirit of assisting fellow Quiet Journey members, I am obligated to post the following information about my recently completed trip, outfitted by North Country Canoe Outfitters (NCCO).  

My three friends and I, all experienced Quetico fishermen, planned a 7 day adventure from Prairie Portage up to Sarah, McIntyre, Burt, etc.  Straightforward stuff.  Push hard, set up a nice base camp, and fish until we are blue-in-the-face!  We switched from our previous outfitter, whom we loved, only for the sake of trying something new.  We chose NCCO, in large part due to the promotional information and DVD we received from them.

I was this year's team leader, and I was responsible for organizing the trip.  My initial interface with John Schiefelbein of NCCO, was very disappointing, and in retrospect, should have been enough of a "red flag" to make me immediately cancel any plans to outfit my trip with him.  He was rude, arrogant, and condescending as he criticized each and every point I made about plans and expectations for my trip.  He was unwilling to listen to what my team wanted.  I was a fool to proceed.

It was clear that no new friendship was to be formed during this process, so I minimized my contact with John as best as I could, but when I called on the morning of our entry permit submission, he made it a point to tell me how upset he was that I was tying up his phone line.  I was done talking to him at that point.

Fast forward to our trip.

Upon our arrival at NCCO, John greeted us, and we were hopeful that his attitude towards us had changed.  It had not.  During the brief trip-planning/mapping session, he was intent upon insulting us.  We mentioned our desire to paddle Isabella Creek, both to avoid two portages and because two of my team members had done it years ago and found it to be a beautiful route.  John's response was that we could not go that route because Canadian Rangers had blocked the creek with boulders to make it impassable!  "Why would they do that?", we asked.  His answer: "Listen, you are just visitors.  Why they did it is not for you to question, and besides, I got this report from someone whose opinion I trust a whole lot more than I do when I get reports from guys like you!"

After another simplistic food and equipment briefing by two teenagers, I decided it was time to put some distance between this guy and my team, so I paid for the trip quickly, and we headed into town to cool off.

The next morning brought horrible weather conditions (high westerly winds, raining, and cold!) but we were intent on getting the trip started. We do travel very heavy, so we were very disappointed when two Boundary Water kevlar canoes were presented to us for loading, instead of the Wenonah Champlain canoes we had been promised.  We took it in stride, once again, and set out on the water.

Conditions deteriorated quickly, and we took cover after only two miles, on Sunday Island in Bayley Bay.  We made camp, re-mapped a new trip, had a sandwich, and went to bed.  When we woke up the next morning, and started to make breakfast, we found that we were missing our entire utensil pack!  No forks, knives, spoons, serving spoon, cooking fork, spatula, fillet knife, oven mitt, pot holder, etc.  Not as bad as being without a tent, but a major omission, to be sure!  A satellite phone call to John at NCCO yielded the following response:  "It didn't get packed!  What do you want me to do about it??!!"  He is an outfitter.  He did not do his job.  Worst of all, he didn't care.  The winds were at 30 knots, the rain was driving, and it was cold.  He wouldn't bring us a kit (he said, "I don't have a permit."), so he told us to paddle back to Prairie Portage and he will leave one at the ranger station.  Angry, but with no other option, we returned to PP.  Now our trip was not going to happen in any way, shape, or form as we had planned.  Extremely disappointed, we set our sights on Isabella Lake, and made it there just before dark that night, in large part, because we had to take the much longer northern route John had mapped, due to the "boulders blocking Isabella Creek".  During our week on Isabella Lake we had the opportunity to ask passersby how they made their way to Isabella, and a gentleman told us that he simply ran Isabella Creek, as always!  No boulder blockade by the Canadian Rangers???  No, just the same tiny little "pull-over" that had always and forever been there!!  On our return trip, we confirmed, Isabella Creek was wide open!!!

John argued with me for an hour and a half when I returned to NCCO at the end of our trip.  He wanted me and my team to just go away, but I insisted he face up to his mistakes.  He was uncaring, disrespectful, and he didn't do his job.  I presented him with the packing list, which showed only that the items for our trip had been pulled, but none of them had been checked off as packed.  His defense was simply that each of the kids that he has pack his trips does it his or her own way!  I asked him if he ever checked the packs of any trip leaving NCCO, and he admitted that he did not.  He does not care.  My team represented dollar signs, not real people taking a real trip.

Begrudgingly, John agreed to refund a small percentage of our trip's price, after trying to make me believe that it was coming out of the pocket of the teenager who did the packing.  To the very end, he refused to accept any responsibility for the poor performance of his business.

For those of you, like me, who come from far away to paddle and fish the waters of Quetico, and need the services of an outfitter, choose carefully.  I feel awful because I did not heed the warning signs flashing before me about NCCO, and my team suffered because of it.  NCCO did not tarnish our love of the Q, but they did remind us to be careful with who we trust with our safety when venturing out into this vast, beautiful place.

is your axe sharp yet?

Thanks for the heads up, and sorry you were dissatisfied with your experiences with NCCO.  It is a great reminder that you shouldn’t just take the word of anyone when it’s your stomach/vacation/life on the line.  Check your gear and food!

I've had pretty good experiences with the Ely outfitters I've used for the last 10 years (Williams & Hall, Wilderness Outfitters, Red Rock Store, and Piragis) though I've never gone the complete outfitting route as I have accumulated enough gear over the years to outfit my needs.  Sometimes it’s just a canoe or 2, maybe a tent, pack or other item we needed due to group size.

My take is that you should feel like you are a valuable customer, your business is appreciated, and you are welcome to return anytime, whether you are getting complete outfitting, partial, or just need a place to shower & sleep.  If I ever get the nerve to become an outfitter, that’s the way I’d have to run it if I wanted to stay in business.  I don’t know John Schiefelbein, but it sounds like he didn’t agree that as owner he is fully responsible for whatever his company does.  The buck stops with him, unless of course he’d rather that buck be spent elsewhere, preferably where the owners appreciate the customer and will go out of their way to keep that customer happy. 

NHHawk wrote on Jul 7^th, 2009 at 1:24am:


This is where you went wrong, well before you even had a chance to ignore that little voice in your head. If you've found a good thing, then stick with it! It can be beneficial to build a relationship with an outfitter over the years. They can provide great advice, and if someday you only need one or two items, or just a place to crash, then they'll be happy to help.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. I appreciate you posting the story here, as it may help others in the future. In this technology age, every business & product is subject to public review on the internet. And the consumers are the ones that stand to benefit from that!

Ranger

I have no interest in engaging in he said, she said nonsense.  I posted the facts of our trip and our experience, as they occurred, in an attempt to assist fellow members.  These facts are not at all in dispute,  Call NCCO at 1-800-552-5581, and talk to John.  He will tell you the same story.  He agreed to three things as I left him on Saturday, July 4th:  First, he agreed to examine the way he ran his business;  to take a vested interest in how completely and accurately trips leaving NCCO were packed.  Secondly, he agreed to my premise that he and his staff should strive to treat their customers like family.  They should be spoken to and respected in the same manner as they would demand for themselves.  Lastly, he offered to reimburse my team because "he had let us down".  He handed me $1000.00 in cash.  If there is another "side" to this story, it will be the first I am hearing of it.

My original post was made, not because there were "minor" or "common" problems with my outfitter.  The events were posted because they were, in fact, so strange and unbelievable.  I wish no harm to John Schiefelbein.  I am simply interested in preventing him from harming any of his clients.  As his business is currently run, greater problems than my team experienced are definitely possible.  If he outfits your trip, insist that all gear be inventoried in front of you.  Also take unconfirmed reports of route disruptions with a grain of salt.  I am looking to help everyone, not harm anyone.

NHHawk -- thanks for the warning.  Sorry about your horrible experience.  Knowing how much I anticipate my QP trips, I can't imagine how frustrating that must have been.

prouboy

NHHawk,

Would it then be fair to say that you would not have received any cash back or admittal of a lack of professionalism had you not gotten back into his face with the fresh facts?

-YB

Thanks for filling in the additional details. Sounds like you did a great job of calling him on his chicken$#%* move, and he finally rolled over and tried to make good. Lessons in effective complaining, customer service, and a reminder to review your gear, all in one thread!

I went without cook kit once...here's the proof...
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I cooked out of that pot for 5 days after we discovered we had left the kit back at the landing.  You'd be suprised what you can cook in a coffee pot.

Where's my $1000?

you were inconvenienced and disappointed by his attitude. he did deliver the missing items and gave you a $1000 refund. sounds like he tried to make good on the mistakes. you should have mentioned the $1000 in your first post.

came up missing many of the same items years ago. we all sat down and carved spoons and forks out of what was handy. continued on for another 3 weeks. made a good story.

need some caution these days on this type of thread. the other guy claims slander/defamation and you end up in court. plenty of recent precedent.

similar thread on canoe country and bwca recently. when i talked to another ely area outfitter who was familiar with the threads i got-"if it had been me, i would have been on the phone to my attorney."

that's just the way it is.

Old_Salt,

Well said!

Sorry to here about the experience was not up to your standards....The sound advise on the thread regarding relationships, trusting your gut sense, not speaking or acting out of anger; can be challenging to all of us at times, and rolling with the punches...all very sound advise... hind sight is always 20/20 and talk is the easy part... walking the walk is another story. Buy the gear, do the planning, and let the others use the outfitters... when they are ready they will spread their wings too,  I think your ready to let that all go and move on to better and bigger things. Kudos to your venting, but the problem was with him and it should have been sorted out with him-a letter to him maybe rather than a thread...and I surmise that he has his own problems that are not confined to the business, and those clearly you got B4 the trip happened, and none....absolutely none of that is an excuse for any of the poor behavior. Is it worth cleaning it up...maybe....maybe not...Good luck! it sounded like it SUCKed for all! Reflect on the golden rule

With rare exception, I venture forth to Quetico annually, and some years, will paddle in the early spring and near the end of the season.  All told, I've been outfitted 28 times by NCCO, and once, the first time, by the Boy Scouts Sommers base.  A couple of those trips were in the BWCA.

Over those years, I've led two different scout troops on multiple trips, and have been a party on several private trips with friends and family.  The experience described by the upset camper sounds a bit bizarre to me, primarily because of perspective and because of suspected embellishment.

Perspective:  Over those many trips I've enjoyed, boys have lost cooking pots   Adults have spilled the coffee.  I've melted spoons, and burned my wet boots.  High winds tore up a tent, and we've tipped over on a few occasions to find we had soggy bags, personal gear, and ruined food.  My point is that you adapt, you respond to your situation, and you can either have a good time adjusting to these set backs, or you can let them consume you.  Sarah from Prairie is about 10 or 11 portages, if memory serves.  It takes two days if you travel heavy, in my experience.  I've done it in one day--but was dead tired and set up the tent in the dark, only to find that we'd left a pack containing our sleeping bags at a prior portage. 

Whether you, your party, or the outfitter makes a mistake, you have choices to make --either you accept the situation or you let it upset you.  The perspective of not having a fork or a spoon, is easy enough to overcome.  A missing hot pad?  Take a glove, or use a handkerchief.  The reaction appears to be WAY overboard in relation to the perspective of the oversight, which was fixed the next day.

Embellishment:  I'm wary of anyone who says I don't intend to skewer someone--I just want to get the facts out.  Hogwash.  NCCO has a full compliment of repeat customers, and consistently has earned high marks from everyone I've paddled with.  It sounds like $1000 for a day's loss of cooking utensils is an incredibly responsible gesture.  Didn't get the canoe you wanted?  Why not ask for it then, or take it up with the pimpled faced 16 year old staffer, if the outfitter wasn't present?  Why didn't he ask for the right canoes either at the commencement of the trip, or while he was using the Sat phone to complain about the spoons and forks.

Service:  Let's see, NCCO couldn't carry the pack to the customer because it didn't have a permit.  That makes sense to me.  I've had to buy one every year, and last I checked, the quotas are usually full.  It sounds like the outfitter paid a tow boat operator to deliver the pack with the missing equipment to the entry point into the park.  Last I checked, the trip from where the customer spent night one was an easy trip back to get the pack.  Would I be miffed that I had to return to get this?  Probably, assuming that I thought I really needed it.

How on earth that trip back to Prairie in an empty canoe would cost the group the ability to go to Sarah on day two, after the weather held them back on day one, is disingenuous to blame on the outfitter.  I've had a canoe break before and have had the outfitter send up a replacement for which we have returned from North Bay, and he did that without charge.  I guess if I were a different person, I'd blame all my woes on the outfitter, and if he didn't respond to a shake down for what I want, I'd do my best to knife him in whatever way I could--if I were a different person.  But I'm not.

My advice:  Get over it--go with another outfitter.  But before the next time that you suggest a business is so vile that no one should use it, examine your perspective and motivation for what you write.   I'm not sure that a full refund would satisfy some people, as I sense is the case here.

Old Salt wrote on Jul 9^th, 2009 at 4:05am:


Ditto !

As a frequent visitor to the BWCA and Quetico, I have appreciated some of the posts in this forum. Similarly to Son_Of_Red, I have had many dealings with North Country Canoe Outfitters over the past 6 years and have been pleased time and time again.

I don't want to downgrade NHHawk's experience, but it sounds like just a fluke. From what was written, it seems like the owners of NCCO did their best to make up for their mistake.

In my experience, the owners of NCCO are friendly, helpful, and well-informed. Most of all, I have found their primary focus to be the satisfaction of their customers. I will continue to go back to NCCO for any outfitting needs in the future.

Wow, I think there is a huge disconnect here.  I first came to the BWCA in 1990 as a result of meeting John Scheifelbein in Chicago at the Outdoor show.  I have been back 16 or 17 times since then, and have never been the least disappointed in the way that I have been treated by him or his staff.
John has gone out of his way to assure that my trip is a sucess each year.  I have returned with my children, my wife and my friends in part as a result of the friendship that we have formed through the years.  
Each trip John reviews my plans with me, offers hints if he has any, shares stories and gives me his undivided attention.  Nothing in the experiance you describe even sounds remotely like anything I have experianced.  
John has done this for me despite the fact that I probably have never paid him as much as $500.  I get a canoe and three Duluth packs, fishing license and permit delivery from him.  If he had to succeed with customers like me I don't think he would make it.  Still I am treated the same as if I had booked the gold package.  
The canoe country trip is a hard trip, that is an important part of the experiance.  You must make adjustments to discomfort and minor misfortune when it occurs.  If you are unable to handle the loss of your plastic ware what would you do if something really bad happens.  I believe that North Country has gotten a bad rap here and can't believe the punishment fits the crime.
I will be back to the BWCA next year and I will outfit through North Country and I will do so because these are good people and they have become my friends.  If you wish to know more about my experiance there I would be happy to share it further.  I hope no one makes a decision to not outfit through North Country because of this overblown "warning" posted.

I think things are playing out as they should in a free and open venue.
NH-Hawk posted his version of events and we responded with varying degree's of sympathy/skepticism/outrage sometimes in the same post.
There's ALWAYS 3 sides to any story, yours/mine and in most cases the truth, somewhere in the middle.
 NHH, said he believes North Country would agree with his version, I'm sure that will be played out in on-line forums or maybe the legal arena.
 I think some good has come out of this, people who have never posted before have rallied around NCCO, and that is a good thing.
 I would way heartfelt personal recommendations just as much as I would posts of a negative nature.
 NO-ONE really knows what happened other than the parties directly involved. We've heard one side, hopefully we'll hear the other.
 Someone said we should view posts like NHH's with a skeptical eye, well in fairness we need too view All posts, for and against in the same light.
 I like too give EVERYONE who post's here the benefit of the doubt on the veracity of their posts. In most cases the truth in time will come out.
 I'm sure other Canoe Country sites are discussing this issue too.
 I would NEVER use a outfitter that I didn't check out with the Better Business Bureau, or that didn't have a recommendation from a person that I felt trustworthy.
 The NCCO have been around for years, so IF this is more than an isolated incident, I'm sure there would be some record of other complaints about poor service. I'm still digesting a 1000.00 dollar refund, I can't imagine spending much more than that on the WHOLE trip  
 The last few posts offered glowing recommendations, so both sides are being represented which is as it should be.
 I would hope NCCO would address this, I'm sure by now their aware of what's been said.  
 Either the story is basically factual, or it's so far from the truth, that it rises too the level of being slanderous?
 I don't know how much harm this might cause NCCO future business?
It seems too me that will be a matter for the courts if legal action is warranted?
 
 

"Fair winds and following seas"...

that's a fine salutation, but the reality of adventurous endeavors is quite different. i've used outfitters of all sorts in different locations and could write a book about the things that did not go according to plan or promise. some minor, but in other cases we were lucky nobody died.

without peeking at my trip notes, i might have trouble recalling the day of calm before the storm. i wouldn't need my notes to remember the storm itself. sit at any campfire, and the stories that are rolling around are not usually of the things that went right, but of the things that went wrong-sometimes terribly wrong. if it wasn't the least funny then, the campfire version will get laughs every time. pick a calamity off the menu and i could probably tell a story to match. whatever happened, it never ruined a trip.

so if you believe in that adage "if things always went right, there would be nothing to talk about", you would have some entertaining things to say about this trip. your memories would have made a better campfire story than a canoe forum story.

Here is how my call from Bayley Bay, to the Outfitter would have gone....
"Hello John,...Guess what !, You owe us big time....You left out the whole silverware kit !......Don't worry about it...We already carved some pronged sticks to use as forks, made a birch bark spatula, and carved a sufficeint big spoon...lol, and we all have pocket knives of course.......Yeah, like I said, you owe us big time. A cold twelve-pack when you pick us up on a tow, should do...lol. I expect our home made cook ware to go on display in your lodge...lol, ok take care"

If I was an Outfitter again (I helped manage CBO for years), and I refunded ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS !!!! over some flat ware, I would think that was the end of it.
I would be SHOCKED to find out that someone taking such a large refund, would be ripping me, and posting my name and my business' name on the internet.
What is your real name, NHHawk ?
I think it's only fair that your name is posted here, for all to see.
If I was an outfitter, I think I would want to avoid you, based on what I have read here.
John Scheifelbein refunded this guys "team", 1000 dollars, in good faith....Only to be blasted on the internet.
I think it's clear, which one of you was able to "man up", when all was said & done.
I wonder how big of a shoulder chip, he could have bought for 2000 dollars.

solotripper wrote on Jul 8^th, 2009 at 10:45pm:


Good point; they do a job I could never, ever succeed in. it really DOES take a special breed to not only run a business like this, but to sustain it as well.

I had just such an experience as you mention early this year. I was at <an unnamed outfitters> the first week of June, when the owner got a call. It was from an out of state individual that had won a canoe the prior summer, and was going to show up in a few days to pick it up and go out on a trip with it. It was clear that the winner had no clue that the canoe needed to be registered to be used in the BW, and seemed to be getting irritated that they would have to jump through numerous government hoops to TRY to get it registered on a weekend when they arrived. The outfitter kept an even temperament, and even did their best to help the winner (WHINER?) out by providing some resources to accomplish what he needed to do.

So here was a case of someone who dawdled away almost a whole year, waited until the very last minute, did not do the proper research, and yet seemed to want to blame the outfitter. Had I been in the outfitters position, it would have become clear quite quickly why I would never make it in that business.

As others have said, it would be interesting to hear the outfitters side of the story. A $1000 refund is nothing short of amazing.

NHHawk wrote on Jul 10^th, 2009 at 1:28am:



He must have given you the $1000 to get rid of your self righteous mug.  Well, there's your problem dude.

I say you owe the outfitter $1000.  Give it back to him.

I had a north-side Quetico outfitter charge me $200 ($50 per person) to make and then pick up a permit for me at the park office in Atikokan recently.  The fee was never discussed, nor is it mentioned on the outifitters web-site.  When I picked up the permit myself, the outfitter refused to refund my money.   I recollect his comment as being '...this is how I make my money'.  That left a bit of a bad-taste in our collective mouths.   I am just wondering if anyone else had that type of experience? The people in the park office felt that was extreme.   --paw

Don't feel bad NCCO!  "Collectively, you have proven to be thankless".... I guess this guy treats everyone poorly.  Helping people in forums such as this one means - 'Hey, if your outfitter forgets to pack your silverware, here's what you can do' and follow Stumpy's words of wisdom by making sticks into forks, birch bark into spatula's and rocks into spoons.  Of course, always use dead and downed wood gathered away from your campsites.....  And warning people on forums means one could have posted a reminder to check your packs before you leave because the summer help who were hired to pack your equipment may have forgotten something.

After reading the first post I still do not get why you are so upset about a mistake like this.  I just got back from a trip using NCCO, and I found it absolutely amazing.  John did not show any of this arrogance, rudeness, or whatever else you say he showed.  Forgetting to pack a utensil kit is certainly not any reason to cry about , lose sleep over, or, as a matter of fact, write a huge tirade slamming this guy over something that you don't know that it was his fault at all.  For all you know, you could have gotten it out at some point and, without knowing it, dropped it into a lake.  As proved through these many posts, it is possible to survive without a cook kit.  John did everything he could to try and make things right about this, even by giving you a $1,000 refund, and yet it is still not good enough for you: you wanted a refund of $1,800 !  Personally, I think that that was too much to even think about asking for.  I personally talked and listened to John about this story, and he personally admitted that his staff dropped the ball.  He admits this and has since moved on, so why can't you?  People aren't always perfect 100% of the time, and this was a rare instance where something just wasn't in the right place at the right time.  Out of all of the stories that I have listened to and letters of recommendation that I have read, I have yet to find more than one or two people who said that their trip was not the trip of a lifetime.  You need to grow a backbone, accept this for what it is, move on, and quit slamming this reputable man and a very profitable business and costing them all a lot of money!

Jackfish, I second your motion, all in favor say aye!

Old Salt wrote on Jul 11^th, 2009 at 4:00am:


Aye!

I'm still not sure why anyone would be upset after getting $1K in compensation just for waiting one extra day for utensils.

I just got back from my trek with NCCO and it was one of the best experiences of my life. We were treated great and put first. ALL of our stuff was packed and i have heard Johns side of the story. If you choose to believe this fools warning post(that is missing many details) then your are going to miss out on a great trip with a great outfitter. Not everyone can be perfect and he even brought them a utensil set, and gave them $1000 dollars cash. NCCO care about their customers and i highly recommend them to any one who wants to visit the Quetico. When i visit again i am 100% sure that i will go with North Country Canoe Outfitters.

Oh ya great, delete the post ... guess who everyone bitches at/about then! (Ya like I care.) Unfortunately, this thread needs to stay for the time being. I can move it or delete it but that would open a whole new can o' worms. Think about it from a few  different perspectives beyond your own. Hey lets dance!

This thread continues because I have the op's name and address on file AND because I expect, the outfitter does too. Duffers come and go you are all welcome to judge credibility and exchange rates by your own standards. Had this thread been started by a duffer it would have been deleted long ago. Personally, I'm still waiting to know the source for why fishing in the Q is down 20%.

The biggest eyebrow raiser for me here was the amount of the refund. Obviously that didn't cut it as it accomplished no meeting of the minds but then the only outfitter I've ever used passed years ago. His stuff sucked but his knowledge and experience will long be remembered and admired and I always stopped in just to say hi and see his paintings. He was an interesting sort and we had things in common.

jdrocks mentioned another thread cross posted (not here) about a deposit that got even more play. I have no idea what people think deposits are for. I always thought that was like a handshake. Seemed pretty cut, dried and smoked to me.

The one thing I do know how important my paddling time is to me and it took me a long time to realize why anyone would trust their trip to any variables they could not circumvent. That is the one reason I hate this new passport thing so much. My trip now depends on my ability not to loose this tiny piece of otherwise useless plastic crap.

I know how far NHHawk travels and his "I was this year's team leader, and I was responsible for organizing the trip" - spoke volumes to me as I'm in some odd virtual way feel gentlemanly responsible for this trip. You guys are my weather and the forecast looks stormy.

In any case, this thread helps QJ NOT. I'd be more than happy to delete it (with apologies to paw). At this point though, what it would take is both principles coming to a better agreement. And even once that portage was accomplished. There are still chilling effects to be considered.

Like anyone believes what they read on the internets. Tell some what they want or expect to hear and they gobble it up. It all presentation and there is no such thing as bad press. What would a #5 Google cost? Ya, it all depends on your perspective. How bout I simply lock this thread? If anyone has something new to say it could be spliced I suppose.

As long as I'm at it, I remember shaking some one's hand not too very long ago. He mentioned he thought he ought to man up one of these days. All show, no go. Hey I'm just saying that's what it looks like depending....

So for now this thread is locked. My offer to remove or move stands. I'd like nothing better than for it to go away. Your milage may vary. Just my opinion folks. (Ya like that matters.)