solotripper wrote on Jul 30^th, 2009 at 11:19pm:


I don't think you could blame an outfitter for that mess.  They shouldn't ever knowingly send out a woefully unprepared group without first trying to convince them of what they really need, but different people have different ideas about what they consider necessities.

I would hope that most outfitters take an active role in trying to make sure that groups (that partial outfit) are properly geared up.  If they convince a group to rent a few more items it's good for their business, and it's good for the group.  I would also hope that they'd give them a list of recommended pre trip reading.

This has been a very interesting thread to read.  I had missed it, and then because of the reference on db's "wilderness" thread, I was directed over here this morning. 

We all hope and pray that we won't have an accident/injury on a trip and need evacuation.  And I think most of us are woefully unprepared for that possibility--I know WE are and we have been going to the BWCA (even the Q back a couple of decades ago) since 1971!  In our case we  have advancing age to deal with and a myriad of physical limitations as well, so we are what you might consider "high-risk".  And we still go, and we still take chances.  That could be considered foolish; I know some of our family and friends would say so.

And I do think a church group (or a scout group or any group that is taking kids/teenagers) has a responsibility to be well-versed in first aid procedures and knowledgeable about appropriate clothing and gear.  Rain gear is an absolute must, obviously!

Having said that, however:

Many people never use an outfitter.  We have never used an outfitter in 38 years of canoe-tripping except for renting one aluminum canoe and a couple of packs for our very first trip!  That first trip was a nightmare by today's standards--we didn't any of the "stuff" that everyone considers necessities "nowadays"  (egads--I sound like an old lady, don't I?)--we had a canvas tent, cotton flannel sleeping bags we borrowed from a friend, blow-up air mattresses like you used in a swimming pool that held air until about the third day, jeans and cotton sweatshirts, ponchos, and our duffle was an old army duffle bag.  No stove, no sunscreen, no headlamp, no nalgene, no water filter. 

The only holdouts from those days--we still use our old Duluth pack purchased used from Canadian Waters in 1971, and Neil still trips in tennis shoes!   

I am glad for my Gore-tex rain gear, my hiking boots, my SeaLine dry bags, and my Katadyn filter.  I don't wear jeans anymore and wouldn't give up my sleeping pad and bag for the "old days".

But I think it might be unreasonable to assume that everyone uses an outfitter, or that everyone needs to have the same gear that we all consider necessary in order to do a wilderness trip.

People have to take responsibility for their own decisions and live with the consequences.  Harsh as that sounds, if it is even a stab at "wilderness", that is the bottom line.  I pray if I ever have to deal with a serious crisis that I have someone like marlin55388 around, but the liklihood of that happening is remote, isn't it? 

They were fortunate, indeed.  Hopefully they learned from the experience. That is all any of us can hope for.

To all....I suppose that I have been doing the outdoors to some degree for all of my life...gardening, car camping, birding and botany, remote alpine and desert trips, paddling(all sorts) and the like. The endeavor has taught tons and enriched my life (and I hope the lives around me) in amazing ways-and I hope will do so for the rest of my life. The seagull/alpine escapade was the sixth "remote" evac. that I have been involved with to some degree-This doesn't included the car wrecks, arrests, and the like when I have to be a "city-ot"...I am struck once again with the quote of a canoe guide( check their website as it was recently posted), which worked for Sawbill Canoe Outfitters-I think it went something like this..."expect the unexpected"-been there for years...at least I think I have. No, I am reminded, that this is a hazardous space to be in-experience driven complascentcy -and this last evac. and my stumbling at the end will attest to that fact. So I continually reflect on "the expecting anything" not in the front of my mind...however. It is true that one doesn't need all the fancy dancy "gear" to experience "wilderness"...the dialog on the POD will attest to that...I think. BUt dang it...when the s#$% hits fan and the bacon is on the line( have no doubt it will sooner or later)-there may not be the serendipity in the situation to salvage it-and that is a pickle that bites-not the individual-but their loved ones-been there and done that too. So here I am having pulled multiple routes with just my son and myself-some "remote" with a poorly functioning sat phone and some busy as h#ll without the electronics...let me tell yah ...I am thinking seriously about a spot locator and going back to the remote loops after reading an article in the last BW/J and our Knife lake adventure. Ergo the inquiry regarding wilderness...Lord knows I dont want to shut the door for my son as it has given me so much...follow. The thing that I am confronted with is my definition of wilderness and how that is completed for me via independence on one facet; one of many..."If you make a mistake out here U own it". So ergo the querry regarding "wilderness"-as I know that I can learn something from all of you

SO here it is again...."What is wilderness to you?"

NOw on the recent dialog in regard to Outfitters and their roll. Well, if I were one which I am not-have guided however. "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink" The outfitters are the outfitters that's it....one layer in the nebulous system... but the final responsibility falls where it would on trail on the group or  finally on the individual...and I will leave it at that for myself Heck this is a whole nother situation when one considers the Forest Service and there roll. Not trying to make waves here...folks doing evacs. should have more than basic first aide for so many reasons-I am glad they have basic first aide...but I would from my humble experiences say that that is basic and not best...and I am thinking about not only the patrons of the park-dysfunctional and functional-but also the workers and their future health. Maybe another step would be to convey the whole concept of "remoteness" and the like during the permitting process, maybe trough stories even....Lord knows rules and regulations occur in grosses these days as do nosy over baring self-riteous people that don't have a clue!-so I am mindful...of that. But wilderness is not evacs. for me, but " half baked catastrophy" nor is half burnt tin foil or 100's of yards of discarded mono....that's just me and who am I to attempt to get U imbibe my pond water. Take what you want and leave the rest!  And for posterity I know my spelling sucks!

Well said Lynda (SP2).
You and Neil "belong" because you do know your "limitations".
Of course we all could run into violent weather/lightning strikes, things we really have NO control over, but the vast MAJORITY of accidents ANYWHERE are the result of poor planning or not knowing your capabilities.
 I cringe every time I read a story about people who have the cash to pay for exotic but dangerous adventure trips in remote areas of the globe. They don't have the skills but find some outfitter/guide, who's willing to take them for the right price. We all have too learn somehow, but it seems nowadays a lot of people think having the means too do "something" is the same as having the "skills" Common sense tells you to ease into new situations, ego and pride tells you to jump-in and let someone else bail you out when you crash and burn
 When disaster strikes, often by their OWN hand, and the guide can't save them all, they fully expect others too risk their life's to save them, with little regard to the "rescuers" life and limb. I think it's a sense of "entitlement" that many nowadays seem too have
 Too me a "wilderness" trip is ANYWHERE that gives a reasonable chance of ME being put into a death/serious injury position, and ME being the ONE who will make it or not based on my abilities and will too survive.
I would GLADLY accept help, but I damn sure don't count on it or feel that other's should be put in harms way because I made foolish decisions.
I get Travelinman's comments. I don't say let them "die", but when the situation is self inflicted, they should at least pay any financial cost the rescue accrues.
We ALL have too make our own decisions on how much " risk" were willing too accept for a "wilderness" experience, I don't think that "counting" on others for help, should be part of your "trip plan".
I carry a lot of "self help" things, that THANK GOD, I've never had too use! When I read stories like Marlin55388, it doesn't seem like such a "burden"

This is why I drink...

That and being a Sox fan living in the shadow of the Cubs all my life!

I find it impossible to respect those who do not respect or take care of themselves.

The opening scene to the overlooked Idiocracy says it all:

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Living in a city that is a practically a welfare state, full of people with their hands out always asking for more - I run to the Quetico a.k.a. "the wilderness" to "get away from it all". 

I find it abhorrent that we live in a world dominated those who demand/expect to be taken care of by those willing to provide care regardless of the caretakers wants and needs. 

For us we plan carefully every trip, we THINK about where we are going, what we are doing, what our limitations are (you are not alone Spartan2!).  We try and learn everyday, to be aware and to respect the world and people around us, but I am not as careless as others of giving respect undeservedly. 

I go out of my way to help those who need if and when they are in true need, because of course If we were ever in need we would trust & hope that someone else would be willing & able to help. 

That being said I cannot absolve or condone willful ignorance in a place that cares not of our limitations or our capabilities.  Mother Nature rarely shows her caring side, she rewards those who prepare and respect her power and she punishes those who don't, period. 

Living in the shadow of Pompeii, living below sea level or along a known fault line, sleeping beneath a half down tree or being unprepared in a "wilderness" is willful ignorance and undeserving of respect IMHO. 

Ah well no one cares what I think anyway!  Dumb people live to breed more dumb people everyday!

Time to root for the south side and raise a glass to one of the few gems left in North America! 

May the "wilderness" return to a true state of wild natural freedom and the world remain relatively free of curmudgeons like me!