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 25 Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National Forest? (Read 32148 times)
starwatcher
Inukshuk
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Re: Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National
Reply #20 - Dec 15th, 2009 at 2:49am
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Riversend,

You made some excellant points including ownership of the land..

Byline: John Myers

Jun. 6--Legislation in the U.S. House would sell 6,700 acres in the Superior National Forest to the Polymet copper company

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Akula
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Re: Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National Forest?
Reply #21 - Dec 15th, 2009 at 4:40am
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Riversend wrote on Dec 15th, 2009 at 2:17am:
Akula: you're putting a lot of good info out here, and was wondering if you could clarify a couple things :question. Is the land in the preposed polytec mine U.S taxpayer land, or mineing Co. land :question


The land is owned by the US Forest Service. PolyMet owns the mineral rights, but having the mineral rights doesn't necessarily give them the automatic right to mine. In order to mine, the US Forest Service would have to sell the land to PolyMet, releasing it to private ownership by the company. The details of this aren't clear yet, but some sort of land exchange would likely have to take place, presumably to prevent a net loss of forested lands.

Also, the land, which is owned by the Federal government, is part of a Ceded Treaty to area natives, which grants them permanent access to the land for hunting, fishing, and gathering. From what I understand, if this deal were to go through, then as per the treaty, PolyMet would have to set aside some other lands for native access.


Quote:
In "your take of the thing so far" you state " some of the tribal organizations which were partners in the event"... is the "event" the draft Eis , The Eis or was the event the film? What or which event?


The 'event' in this case would be the constructing of the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS).


Quote:
Under Scope and Cost of Reclamation in the EIS , you state "An actual reclamation plan would come later as part of the reqiirements for obtaining a permit...bla, bla ,bla, plan to be updated yearly, bla, bla. Yet the way I read you think until polymet can come up with some better reclamation ideas, we shouldn't let them go forward with their mine :question


Without at least a basic idea for reclamation, one can't fully assess the possible long-term environmental impacts. They have to come up with some reclamation ideas in the Environmental Impact Statements, but they do not have to go into specific technical detail about how these ideas would be carried out. So they are ideas, and not an engineering plan or a technical directive. Those things would come later, and would have to be approved by the State before they issued the Permit to Mine.

My take is that the reclamation ideas presented in the draft are inadequate.

But since this is a "Draft" Environmenal Impact Statement, the cooperating agencies will take the public's comments and critiques, and work them into a new, final Environmental Impact Statement, which will then be forwarded to lawmakers to assist them in making the go/no go decision.

I should mention that if a land sale or exchange were to take place between the US Forest Service and PolyMet, then the US Forest Service would conduct their own Environmental Impact Statement to examine the good's and bad's of the exchange.

We are still in the very beginning phases of the decision process.


Quote:
No offense to you intended, but please take this as helpful imput to your imput...To me you are not yet sure which side of the tightrope you want to fall off of Huh


No offense taken. It's a complicated process, and I'm by no means an expert on its intricacies.

I am, at this point, undecided on whether or not we should allow PolyMet to open this mine. It would be easier for me to get behind an underground mine, because all of the major reclamation concerns are eliminated by that type of operation - you can backfill an underground mine and leave a small mark on the surface which can easily be revegetated.

The NorthMet deppsit, which PolyMet is asking to mine, is just one of several along a large mineralized trend in this particular corner of the state. Some of the others ARE best exploited by an underground mining process, but they are held by different junior companies who are not as far along in the exploration and development process.

The point is that even if we don't allow PolyMet's project to go through, we still have options for developing our resources. We can still bring jobs and industry to the Range, and we can still collect royalties on the commodities sold - and do it more safely, without digging another giant open pit in the ground.

I just don't want the economic situation to alter the decisions made - in other words, I don't want the immediate need for jobs allow the wrong mine to begin operations, and create an unnecessary disturbance that carries avoidable long-term effects.


Quote:
If you don't mind me asking,,,, Who is your employer, and what type of position do you have that allows you to open an internet post with the declaration "Since I've got lots of time to kill at work"...Sounds to me like your employeer needs to trim a little fat and tighten the ol' belt buckle a little :exclamation Wink


I will submit the idea to management, but since I work for myself, I don't forsee any resulting disciplinary action Grin

If you must know, I am doing some wellsite geological consulting, for some oil projects in north-western North Dakota. The 'action' is slow, and I live out of a trailer on a rig site for a month at a time, so I end up with a lot of down time.
  
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starwatcher
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Re: Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National
Reply #22 - Dec 15th, 2009 at 11:37am
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Back to the original question… I’m in favor of the projects for the Jobs and for minimizing the environmental impact through existing air, water, wetlands, mine reclamation and environmental regulations.  It seems like most people either work for government or industry, and 50% of Northern Minnesota economy is provided by the mining or forest product industry.  Tourism only accounts for 11% of the economy, and those tend to be lower paying and seasonal jobs like waitresses, maids, and helper jobs as compared to high paid professionals.  The projects would provide additional revenue in the form of taxes to support government and the educational system.

In regards to open pit versus underground; I accept the open pit mining operations. When you drive on interstate 80 around the southern end of Lake Michigan in Indiana you cross a huge open pit mine called Thornton Quarry.  The quarry most likely will end up as a lake when they complete mining the resource.  Where did the rock go?  It’s in the pavement that you’re driving on.  Similarly, the open pit on the Mesabi Range end up in steel that you used in the cars we drive and buildings we live and work in.  There were four mines that are on the outskirts of Ely.  You can see them across from the Grand Ely Lodge.  They are now a lake stocked with lake trout and have a biking and hiking trail around them.  To me the copper-nickel mining area is a continuation of the existing Mesabi Range.  The PolyMet site is farther away than the current iron mines and I’m comfortable with the location and for the benefit it will have on the economy.

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Riversend
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Re: Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National Forest?
Reply #23 - Dec 15th, 2009 at 1:12pm
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akula: thanks for the additional clarification.

starwatcher: I recognize the photo above as Miners Lake in beautiful downtown BWCAW Smiley Miners Lake does provide much recational oppertunities to citizens (seasonal & perminate) and eco-tourism alike. Some of these recrerational activities include: canoeing and fishing TROUT  a hiking\joging\ ski trail meandering around the lake, a trail that is closed to mechinized use (i guess this gives Miners Lake its "wildernes" status  Smiley ) The shoreline is now valuable "lakeshore" real estate with some $ BIG BUCK$ homes with likewise property $ TAXES $. Part of the old iron mine site is also the location of newer businesses structures such as Ely Vet Clinic, Irrestiable INC, Sato travel, Mn. State Revenue complex, Stieger Mucklucks and a couple other employers I'm missing right now. I belive some sort of organization is curently seeking funding to develop geo-thermal heating project useing the waters from the depths of Miners Lake :question...My take: this old useless mine site is now a highly valued by fish, wildlife, & humans alike Smiley

Back to the origional  :question.....At this point, from the imput here and in the film "Precious Waters", I see no impact to the BWCAW from the preposed Poly met mine...Sooooo: bring on the jobs . I do reserve the right to form an alternate platform should actual facts support the idea there would impact to the BWCAW....thanks to all for assistance in formulating this "current" Riversend opinion... Smiley
  
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Solus
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Re: Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National Forest?
Reply #24 - Dec 15th, 2009 at 3:48pm
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Starwatcher-

According to Minnesota Department of Economic Development St. Louis County has just under 100,000 people under employment of which fewer than 4000 are employed in mines or logging. A far cry from 50%.

I'm all for jobs in this neck of the woods but not at any cost.

The pit PolyMet will leave behind will not be a "lake" but a storage and containment pond for the tailings with the highest level of sulfides. A body of water that must be isolated from surface and groundwater systems for hundreds of years (A tall order for a company that has existed for less than five years). Basically an acidic lake- quite different from the ferrous pits strung across the range. The other concern is whether or not PolyMet will still exist as a corporate entity when it comes time to pay for the cleanup. Unfortunately dissolving corporate structures is an often used strategy to avoid costly reclamation once the ore is gone (very common among coal companies in West Virginia and Kentucky). The "cleanup" bonds required by Minnesota would not come close to covering the possible costs of this operation.

Akula's analysis is as good as I've seen at stripping it to the most important points, ignoring the noise being emitted by the cheerleaders and knee jerk nay sayers.
  
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starwatcher
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Re: Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National
Reply #25 - Dec 15th, 2009 at 9:04pm
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According to the University of Minnesota.  Mining accounts for 34%, Forest products 12% and Tourism 11%

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"The iron ore industry, which directly employs about 3,000 workers, pumps more than $2 billion annually into the state economy and creates an additional $700.4 million in inter-industry spending and $425.7 million in additional household spending in the state, according to Jim Skurla, University of Minnesota Duluth assistant director of the Bureau of Business and Economic Research. In total, the industry has a $3.1
billion annual economic impact on the state economy and provides jobs
to 10,193 Minnesotans, said Skurla. “This area would be in big trouble without mining,” said Skurla."

In regards to the Draft EIS, my understanding is that the purpose of an EIS is to identify potential issues.  The permitting process would determine the ultimate design of project components.

Solus, you are out of line using name calling on this forum.

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Solus
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Re: Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National
Reply #26 - Dec 15th, 2009 at 9:40pm
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Starwatcher-

I did not name call. I'm sorry that it came across that way. What I was trying to say was that Akula had produced a rather deft analysis despite the hub bub created by both preservation (knee-jerk nay sayers) and mining (cheerleaders) groups  that make it difficult to get to the meat of the matter.

  
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starwatcher
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Re: Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National
Reply #27 - Dec 15th, 2009 at 9:47pm
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Okay Solus, apology accepted.

"If the tailings are ultimately determined to be reactive, the company has proposed to line Cells 1E and 2E for the entire life of the operation to prevent reactive runoff from seeping into the ground and surrounding environment. Any discharge from the tailings basin would be monitored and if necessary, directed to a water treatment plant for appropriate treatment prior to discharge. Potential impacts and mitigation measures of this alternative will be included in the EIS." quote from EIS scoping

Again, In regards to the Draft EIS, my understanding is that the purpose of an EIS is to identify potential issues.  The permitting process would determine the ultimate design of project components.

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Akula
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Re: Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National
Reply #28 - Dec 16th, 2009 at 1:00am
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starwatcher wrote on Dec 15th, 2009 at 9:47pm:
Again, In regards to the Draft EIS, my understanding is that the purpose of an EIS is to identify potential issues.  The permitting process would determine the ultimate design of project components.


That is correct.



With regards to the leftover flooded pit and reclaimed property, I don't see any potential for prime real estate. The tailings pond (at the plant site) would be revegetated to keep dust down, but it would be left in place, along with its dams, and would require chemical and structural monitoring well into the future. The below-grade foundations of the plant buildings and other structures would be left in place.

The pit(s), 6-8 miles away, would be left as is, except they would be flooded and backfilled with the reactive waste rock. If the proposed liner system on the adjacent walls works as described, the pit water would be kept fairly clean; but whether or not it will be clean enough for fish and human use is uncertain. Next to the old pit would be the pile of non-reactive waste rock, which would be revegetated if possible - but would still be just a giant pile of rocks.

Hopefully that will paint a clear picture of what would be left behind. Read through section 3.1.7 of the DEIS, titled "Project Closure," for more details.



I want to again stress the fact that PolyMet's NorthMet deposit is just one of several along the mineral trend - if this mine doesn't open, another one could in the future. A few of the other deposits would favor a less destructive, underground mining operation. PolyMet is not our only option.

Here is a link to the data Solus mentioned: (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links). The NRRI report that starwatcher mentioned takes into account all of the indirect employment resulting from mining operations, which is significantly higher than the percentage of people directly employed by mining.
  
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starwatcher
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Re: Nickel/Copper mining in the Superior National
Reply #29 - Dec 16th, 2009 at 2:10am
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This is part of a long list of indirect employment.

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